Margulis Theory

[ADRAKATA9]

DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU ARE NOT UP TO DATE ON WARFRAME'S STORY!!!

Spoiler

So its common knowledge that Margulis was killed at the hands of her lover, Ballas, because she disobeyed the Orokin Elites wishes to turn the tenno into war machines. She died.... or did she?

Maybe Ballas was able to preserve her oro and she lived on, but what next? Lotus, or Natah, comes in during the tenno uprising, but certainly not as her true sentient form. Sentients from what i know and have see are polymorphic? They can change themselves and replicate but no implication has been made that sentients can change into humans. But given Natah is the daughter of an all powerful entity, it would seem adequate that she be able to... posses human bodies.

Thats right, Im talking body snatching here.

Natah stole Margulis and became the Lotus with her body in order to convince the tenno to revolt againt the orokin, repressing Margulis's concienceness in the process. Her body snatchinig is why she wears the mask: becuase Margulis's actual face is under it and Lotus dosent want anyone to know what she did or find the truth. She gains Margulis's compassion and love for the tenno as children, considering she cant have any due to void poisoning, and decides not to act out phase three of the plan her father sent her to do. Lotus then puts all the tenno to sleep after the war in hopes that they forget it, and it works. The tenno have little to no memory about the war and thus no longer would question the disappearance of Margulis and who this new chick was, but instead learn what she did and how the Lotus is continuing her work.

 

This is all just a theory, not cannon unless its proven to be. If anyone has any thoughts please feel free to let me know.

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Rauxa9

[THE_MAANIAC]

This seems like a great theory to be honest, but there may be some small errors lore wise, but that doesnt matter (and im no lore- master either).

But, i doubt this will ever be done in game, as that would require another quest (most probably) to explain. While most of your theory can still be accepted, the whole 'making the tenno forget margulis' i dont think that would happen, as we have already discovered Natah. 

I feel they should focus the next quests on the darker, corrupting powers of the void, as teshin mentions in the war within. 

Good theory, but i wouldnt want too much time to be invested into excplaining the entire thing in game.

 

[ADRAKATA9]

13 minutes ago, THE_MAANIAC said:

This seems like a great theory to be honest, but there may be some small errors lore wise, but that doesnt matter (and im no lore- master either).

But, i doubt this will ever be done in game, as that would require another quest (most probably) to explain. While most of your theory can still be accepted, the whole 'making the tenno forget margulis' i dont think that would happen, as we have already discovered Natah. 

I feel they should focus the next quests on the darker, corrupting powers of the void, as teshin mentions in the war within. 

Good theory, but i wouldnt want too much time to be invested into excplaining the entire thing in game.

 

Make the tenno forget what Margulis looks like is what I meant, sorry lol

[Ismal]

It is an interesting idea. Something to consider though...

Would Margulis have possessed Oro to begin with? While she was an Archimedian and part of the Orokin hierarchy, she was not herself Orokin. There is admittedly not a whole lot known about the nature of Oro, or in whom it would be present save the Tenno and Teshin's unspecified enemy. However, the Orokin themselves were not terribly subtle in their nomenclature; Tenno for instance being a direct reference to the Zariman Ten Zero. Orokin easily distills into Oro Kin, or with a little latitude Oro Family or Those of the Oro. Perhaps that is what transfers into new hosts through continuity, an Oro formed through the consumption of Kuva. The immortality of the Orokin would suggest that, but that too is only a theory. 

 

 

 

[EchoesOfRain]

Personally, I think transference between Natah and Margulis was performed somehow. "I am not who you think I am" is Natah acknowledging that she has Margulis's body, but Natah's mind. Once Ballas disconnects Lotus, she responds with "Ballas?". Margulis came to, confused at why she' not dead and why Ballas is standing in front of her, and also why she so willingly walks off with him.

The Sacrifice refers to choosing either Natah or Margulis as our mother figure. Notice both of the 2 handed katana announced? One belongs to Ballas, lover to Margulis. One is sentient in design, representing Natah's sentient heritage.

 

That' just my theory though. A bit different than yours, but kinda similar. 

[NocheLuz]

I have a question regrading Ballas. Why he wait until we found out about Lotus/Margulis hideout/pod? If he knew about Lotus/Margulis whereabout all the time why wait until 'WE' the player, find that out? Not to mention the quest can only start if we completed 'Chain of Harrow' questline. So I think that have something to do with why Ballas wait until now. Don't forget about 'Natah' travel though Void too... So... Man in the wall may also affect Natah/Lotus??

My theory is that. Man in the wall weaken the Lotus, thus making Ballas can find and disconnected her from the body. IIRC, Margulis and Ballas never hate each other. But love each other very much. However because of Ballas position he cannot forgive Margulis for what she do. He executed her... But why she still alive? I think Ballas and Lotus help her escape but Margulis refuse. So Lotus takeover her body and escape. That is why when we first met Lotus face-to-face she said 'How long have we waited for this moment' to Ballas. Lotus know and willing to gave back Margulis. Ballas said 'Forgive me' to Lotus not to Margulis. So she ask why he apologize since she is not Margulis (Lotus think he apologize to Margulis for what he have done). Ballas tell her that Lotus too, imprisoned like how Margulis does... Imprisoned to look over the Tenno...

That is my theory about Margulis. There are a lot of hole in it though...

[Falconer777]

A good hypothesis, I represented the development of events about the same. With one minor difference. 
 

Спойлер

 

Lotus could just want to become a powerful queen, mistress of her own army, blindly loyal to her. Not a declared "love" for young tenno, but a simple benefit. 

Army, ready for her sake at all. An army that was in a dream and does not know the truth.

And she becomes a queen, and not someone's subordinate. Successfully eliminates both its "master" and the owners of the tenno.

And begins his own game.

By the way, I could never understand two things in the story:
1. Why should I blindly follow all the orders of the Lotus, and kill ALL on whom she points.
2. Why we are fighting against the Corps. They love profit, only because of this?)) Seriously, in my opinion they are our natural allies against really cruel enemies of humanity. 

P.S. I apologize for my bad English)

 

 

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

On 2018-05-23 at 9:28 PM, Rauxa9 said:

DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU ARE NOT UP TO DATE ON WARFRAME'S STORY!!!

  Hide contents

So its common knowledge that Margulis was killed at the hands of her lover, Ballas, because she disobeyed the Orokin Elites wishes to turn the tenno into war machines. She died.... or did she?

Maybe Ballas was able to preserve her oro and she lived on, but what next? Lotus, or Natah, comes in during the tenno uprising, but certainly not as her true sentient form. Sentients from what i know and have see are polymorphic? They can change themselves and replicate but no implication has been made that sentients can change into humans. But given Natah is the daughter of an all powerful entity, it would seem adequate that she be able to... posses human bodies.

Thats right, Im talking body snatching here.

Natah stole Margulis and became the Lotus with her body in order to convince the tenno to revolt againt the orokin, repressing Margulis's concienceness in the process. Her body snatchinig is why she wears the mask: becuase Margulis's actual face is under it and Lotus dosent want anyone to know what she did or find the truth. She gains Margulis's compassion and love for the tenno as children, considering she cant have any due to void poisoning, and decides not to act out phase three of the plan her father sent her to do. Lotus then puts all the tenno to sleep after the war in hopes that they forget it, and it works. The tenno have little to no memory about the war and thus no longer would question the disappearance of Margulis and who this new chick was, but instead learn what she did and how the Lotus is continuing her work.

 

This is all just a theory, not cannon unless its proven to be. If anyone has any thoughts please feel free to let me know.

 

It's certainly an interesting theory.

Spoiler

Although as someone already mentioned here, we don't know if Margulis had an Oro although I think she most likely did. Aside from that the body snatching theory is not possible based on the lore itself. The Jade Light completely destroyed its victims and they were turned into a puddle of... remains as mention in Detron Crewman.

 

[Auris40]

My take on the story is:
 

Spoiler

Natah mimicked Margulis body, so perfectly that she has been deemed a suitable Vessel for her identity/soul by Ballas.

I also dont think that he tricked her or took her by force but offered her a deal, namely some kind of knowledge/weapon against an enemy we would be otherwise helpless against, the "you are nothing without me" man in the wall. That would be both in tune with the line from the sacrifice "For their (Tenno) life, yours (Lotus)."

That would also explain:
-Why the Apostasy Quest recquires the Chains of Harrow quest, as it informs us that the person who kept the man in the wall at bay is no more
-Why Ballas waited up until now to get her. He likely (as he seems to dwell in the void himself) took note of what happened and saw it as a chance to approach Lotus as he now had something she (or rather we) would need.
My take on us being there is that Lotus either doesnt trust Ballas OR (more likely) wants to backstab him, sneaking us in as a hidden/cloaked observer to know what happened (I dont think Ballas knows we are there and Lotus doesnt acknowledges us as to not give us away) so we could pick up the trail and break her out once Ballas has fullfilled his end of the deal.

 

@Falconer777

[Auris40]

Sorry messed up the previous message, Falconer777: The corpus are profit through exploitations, at all costs that puts them at odds with us. The benelovent Profit-Seekers would be the Perrin Sequence.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

I thought that was pretty much a given, especially if you consider how Kuva has been repeatedly established as substance that can at least manipulate memories, and in the right hands(Ballas' in Ordis' case) it can even be used to purge parts of one's personality. Ballas wouldn't show up at Lotus' place without a plan to restore her to Margulis.

[Kaotyke]

6 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

There are a lot of hole in it though...

Like why the static and us being effected by it.

I mean, we had our Warframe when we went to Lua, then we are suddenly without it.

[NocheLuz]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Warframe2052018 said:

It's certainly an interesting theory.

  Hide contents

Although as someone already mentioned here, we don't know if Margulis had an Oro although I think she most likely did. Aside from that the body snatching theory is not possible based on the lore itself. The Jade Light completely destroyed its victims and they were turned into a puddle of... remains as mention in Detron Crewman.

 

What I think is that Jade Light did destroy the Margulis.... But... Is it really Margulis?

Spoiler

Remember in the Second Dream quest, Lotus come to us directly. But in the Apostasy Prologue we clearly see that after lose the wire connection. Lotus also lose control over Margulis. So, I think Lotus that appear before us in the Second Dream quest was not her at all. Maybe something similar to Warframe that she can use. So, if what Jade Light destroy wasn't Margulis but something like a Warframe. It is possible to have a body snatch theory. Since they never mention that the remain in Detron Crewman was her at all. Only mention a things... remain...

 

2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Like why the static and us being effected by it.

I mean, we had our Warframe when we went to Lua, then we are suddenly without it.

I think the static have something to do with Transference.

Spoiler

Remember how the first static appear when we control the Warframe to the Cold-sleep pod and we lose control over Warframe when the pod open (a lot of static before the disconnected). I don't remember if there any other statis happen after that (I think there are more but I can't remember lol). But if the statis really appear when we using Transference. Why is it happen when we didn't use one in front of Margulis/Lotus? We lose control over Warframe when we enter the hole in the ground. I think it appear that Lotus control over Margulis either by Transference or Ballas disconnected her from any other 'Lotus' things that act like Warframe. So he can disconnected her from Lotus completely. But I think because of the pod that Margulis use are special so we also effected by it.... or Ballas powerful disconnect ability also effect us... non-target too...

 

[Falconer777]

4 часа назад, Auris40 сказал:

Извините, перепутал предыдущее сообщение, Falconer777: Корпус - это прибыль от эксплойтов, любой ценой, которая ставит их в противоречие с нами. Бенелогентные Прибыльчики были бы Перринской Последовательностью.

Yes it is. But this problem could be solved through negotiations, or cunning, that is, to find some other ways. Imho of course:)

[Kaotyke]

2 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

 think the static have something to do with Transference.

  Reveal hidden contents

Remember how the first static appear when we control the Warframe to the Cold-sleep pod and we lose control over Warframe when the pod open (a lot of static before the disconnected). I don't remember if there any other statis happen after that (I think there are more but I can't remember lol). But if the statis really appear when we using Transference. Why is it happen when we didn't use one in front of Margulis/Lotus? We lose control over Warframe when we enter the hole in the ground. I think it appear that Lotus control over Margulis either by Transference or Ballas disconnected her from any other 'Lotus' things that act like Warframe. So he can disconnected her from Lotus completely. But I think because of the pod that Margulis use are special so we also effected by it.... or Ballas powerful disconnect ability also effect us... non-target too...

 

But it still doesnt explain the mind#*!%ery that the Apostasy Prologue was, but I can speculate.

Here are what confused me and what I concluded:

• A Lua projection appears out of nowhere in our quarters, we touch it. Without warning or fanfare we get to the Moon.
• We follow what it seems to be a string of memories.
• We jump down a hole and suddenly: no Warframe. We dont even question the how did that happen.
• Lotus and Ballas completly ignore the Tenno as if they are not even there.
• We grab the Lotus helmet and put it in our Orbiter.

The conclusion I had was: All those events, except the last one were a result of Somatic Resonance that happens when the Tenno are around. Proof? Sands of Inaros, we hear Baro's mother talking. Lua during TSD, we hear Margulis and Ballas talking about the Tenno. TWW, we hear the Queens talking to us using the Transference stream.

What happened in the quest was: We touched the projection, we SAW what happened between Lotus and Ballas as if we were there, but like seeing memories from the Pensive in Harry Potter, we couldnt interact with them because we were not there. We felt the static because that is what happened to Natah, she got bugged out and we felt what she did when the disconnection happened. Afterwards, we went to the same place and found her abandoned helmet, confirming the vision.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2018-05-23 at 3:28 PM, Rauxa9 said:

DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU ARE NOT UP TO DATE ON WARFRAME'S STORY!!!

  Hide contents

So its common knowledge that Margulis was killed at the hands of her lover, Ballas, because she disobeyed the Orokin Elites wishes to turn the tenno into war machines. She died.... or did she?

Maybe Ballas was able to preserve her oro and she lived on, but what next? Lotus, or Natah, comes in during the tenno uprising, but certainly not as her true sentient form. Sentients from what i know and have see are polymorphic? They can change themselves and replicate but no implication has been made that sentients can change into humans. But given Natah is the daughter of an all powerful entity, it would seem adequate that she be able to... posses human bodies.

Thats right, Im talking body snatching here.

Natah stole Margulis and became the Lotus with her body in order to convince the tenno to revolt againt the orokin, repressing Margulis's concienceness in the process. Her body snatchinig is why she wears the mask: becuase Margulis's actual face is under it and Lotus dosent want anyone to know what she did or find the truth. She gains Margulis's compassion and love for the tenno as children, considering she cant have any due to void poisoning, and decides not to act out phase three of the plan her father sent her to do. Lotus then puts all the tenno to sleep after the war in hopes that they forget it, and it works. The tenno have little to no memory about the war and thus no longer would question the disappearance of Margulis and who this new chick was, but instead learn what she did and how the Lotus is continuing her work.

 

This is all just a theory, not cannon unless its proven to be. If anyone has any thoughts please feel free to let me know.

 

I’ll be brief.  Ballas got his lover back in an attempt to maintain the last vestige of his humanity.  The cost is likely a “race against time” scenario because I predict that Natah, now outside the Void, is going to revert (even though she might not want to) to a World-killing machine like her father and explode forth from the moon to destroy the system.

The Tennocon 2018 Sigil looks like a Lotus version of Hunhow to me.

You must take the helmet in your living quarters, rescue Margulis from Ballas/Umbra, and reunite her with Natah in transformative, Symbolic harmony.

Imagine THIS exploding forth from the moon to join Hunhow...

Cetus wouldn’t save us this time.

And yes just speculation.

Edited May 27, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[ADRAKATA9]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I’ll be brief.  Ballas got his lover back in an attempt to maintain the last vestige of his humanity.  The cost is likely a “race against time” scenario because I predict that Natah, now outside the Void, is going to revert (even though she might not want to) to a World-killing machine like her father and explode forth from the moon to destroy the system.

The Tennocon 2018 Sigil looks like a Lotus version of Hunhow to me.

You must take the helmet in your living quarters, rescue Margulis from Ballas/Umbra, and reunite her with Natah in transformative, Symbolic harmony.

 

but we were on Lua, which was outside of the void

[(PSN)Silverback73]

7 minutes ago, Rauxa9 said:

but we were on Lua, which was outside of the void

The moon was hidden INSIDE the Void until the Second Dream event, which would have suppressed Natah’s Sentient power and personality.

Look at what has happened...

1.  The Margulis connection has been terminated.  Natah can no longer “Dream, not of what you are (A world-destroying machine slaved to it’s purpose), but of what you want to be (The Lotus Mother to both Tenno and Sentient)”

2.  The Void can no longer constrain  Natah’s purpose.

Edited May 27, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73

[ADRAKATA9]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

The moon was hidden INSIDE the Void until the Second Dream event, which would have suppressed Natah’s Sentient power and personality.

Look at what has happened...

1.  The Margulis connection has been terminated.  Natah can no longer “Dream, not of what you are (A world-destroying machine slaved to it’s purpose), but of what you want to be (The Lotus Mother to both Tenno and Sentient)”

2.  The Void can no longer constrain  Natah’s purpose.

I see

so maybe the sacrifice would be either killing Natah or margulis then?

[Teoarrk]

Spoiler

 

I'll be as short as possible. During the Natah quest, it is revealed that the Lotus betrayed her father during the Sentient's plot to completely destroy the Orokin leadership and their most powerful deterrents to Sentient incursion. Natah did this because she acquired the memories of Margulis somehow by impersonating her form. It's possible that this was either done by absorbing her Oro or some other equally convoluted method that she specifically was designed to perform. None of this was done while she was in the void and in fact she was the one who shifted Lua into the void and performed most of her operations there. She's not encumbered by being in the void evidently, which ties to how other Sentients have acquired a partial defence against void energy by becoming sterile. 

It's possible that what we saw in the Apostacy Prologue was either Ballas drawing out Margulis's Oro or  imbuing the Lotus with Margulis's Oro. Theres no way to tell for sure until we get more information. It was also evident from the encounter that Natah was not in control of this, which begs to reason that this also wasn't the case the first time either. 

 

 

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

6 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

What I think is that Jade Light did destroy the Margulis.... But... Is it really Margulis?

Spoiler

 

Your assumption is 100% based on the fact that Lotus IS Margulis. Or at least her body is. While there is no proof which shows that's the case. I can also argue that in the Apostacy Prologue, when Ballas caused a transference static, Margulis's Oro could have been brought back into what is essentially Natah thus her losing the wires. I can argue that Ballas, "kicked" Natah's Oro out and replaced it with Margulis somehow. But this is a theory. 

Proof as to Lotus not being Margulis is also shown in the Chains of Harrow quest where Palladino confronts Lotus about her nature, and how "what she has made of herself is merely drawn from the memories of these children. You are not she. You are not Margulis." Plus Lotus didn't even know Rell existed. Therefore, again, the body snatching theory is highly unlikely. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by (PS4)Warframe2052018

[NocheLuz]

5 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

What happened in the quest was: We touched the projection, we SAW what happened between Lotus and Ballas as if we were there, but like seeing memories from the Pensive in Harry Potter, we couldnt interact with them because we were not there. We felt the static because that is what happened to Natah, she got bugged out and we felt what she did when the disconnection happened. Afterwards, we went to the same place and found her abandoned helmet, confirming the vision.

Oh, it is possible. IIRC, when the quest begin (or end? I'm not sure) Ordis said something like he cannot contact Lotus. So the Lotus disappear before we arrived theory is possible.

@(PS4)Warframe2052018

Yes, it is base on that and I'm trying to proof that this theory is possible.

Spoiler

Also, what Palladino said also can also mean Lotus cannot read/copy Margulis's memory. If so, what Palladino said and the fact that Lotus don't know about Rell is still possible in body snatch theory. What we know about Lotus is that she's Love Tenno like her own children. Not how Margulis does. Although, it can be argue that Margulis also love Tenno like her own children. But each person love is difference... We cannot said that Lotus and Margulis Love for Tenno is the same. For one thing, Margulis feel very bad for sending Tenno to fight. But Lotus do not hesitate to send Tenno to fight.

 

[Kaotyke]

1 minute ago, NocheLuz said:

Yes, it is base on that and I'm trying to proof that this theory is possible.

  Hide contents

Also, what Palladino said also can also mean Lotus cannot read/copy Margulis's memory. If so, what Palladino said and the fact that Lotus don't know about Rell is still possible in body snatch theory. What we know about Lotus is that she's Love Tenno like her own children. Not how Margulis does. Although, it can be argue that Margulis also love Tenno like her own children. But each person love is difference... We cannot said that Lotus and Margulis Love for Tenno is the same. For one thing, Margulis feel very bad for sending Tenno to fight. But Lotus do not hesitate to send Tenno to fight.

Its a morality thing when comparing to a human and a Sentient's alien mentality.

But I dont think Margulis was alive to see the Tenno being deployed in the war, only having the knowledge that, yes the Orokin will be using them reguardless of her wishes.

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

3 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

Oh, it is possible. IIRC, when the quest begin (or end? I'm not sure) Ordis said something like he cannot contact Lotus. So the Lotus disappear before we arrived theory is possible.

@(PS4)Warframe2052018

Yes, it is base on that and I'm trying to proof that this theory is possible.

  Hide contents

Also, what Palladino said also can also mean Lotus cannot read/copy Margulis's memory. If so, what Palladino said and the fact that Lotus don't know about Rell is still possible in body snatch theory. What we know about Lotus is that she's Love Tenno like her own children. Not how Margulis does. Although, it can be argue that Margulis also love Tenno like her own children. But each person love is difference... We cannot said that Lotus and Margulis Love for Tenno is the same. For one thing, Margulis feel very bad for sending Tenno to fight. But Lotus do not hesitate to send Tenno to fight.

 

Spoiler

Both Natah and Margulis love Tenno like their children. As to why Lotus sends tenno to fight well... game. Also yes Margulis and Lotus are two different beings, but my point was Palladino specifically saying that she "made herself like Margulis as much as she can, but she is not". It still does not prove there was any body snatching. I think we have to agree to disagree. 

 

[Teoarrk]

Spoiler

 

Body snatching is a different concept than replication or mimicry. From the Saryn Prime trailer, we're made aware that Margulis was cremated.

Margulis, from your winter ashes there has sprung a field of flowers.

This of course could be a metaphor about shame, but I'm going with a literal approach given what we've been told about judgement in the Detron Crewman synthesis target log:

They opened the door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting in a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore.

Unless Ballas was able to fake Margulis's liquidation and Natah was able to steal her body at the exact moment of the ruse, I don't think this theory is possible. Margulis as she was is dead, another casualty of the Old War. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Teoarrk
Spoilers