[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[Reclaimer2448]

5 hours ago, Jakizu said:

Also wanting spread on all death is just lazy and anyone asking for it just wants to sit back and watch, not ok. They not only added auto spread on all directly casted spore targets but also added spread on death wen spore target dies due to miasma. As well as your regular hit chance and toxic lash's guaranteed spread, spread should be a complete non issue.

I do understand how spread on death allows lazy play styles, but I'm sure there's a better way to disallow just sort of sitting back and watching without entirely removing this feature. I want that back and I always constantly pushed myself to actively spread the disease as far as possible. Spread is definitely doable at the right level, but it's less fun than before.

Also, I'd have to disagree every time I see someone say Toxic Lash isn't useful in lower level mission. At least not when they're not super low. I almost always find myself using Toxic Lash to help me in survivals before I start using Spores.

As a sidenote, what does upvoting do? I saw a cool idea earlier and Idk what I'm supposed to do. Prior to this rework, all I ever used the forums for was to report bugs.

 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

1 hour ago, Jakizu said:

I like the idea for molt. With this revisit I feel health is more needed than speed. 

Toxic lash though. Unless they were to take ur advice on spores, i would want more than 2 energy back. With how it is now we'd be chasing enemies to kill for energy before spores kills them. Maybe 1 or 2 energy back per enemy that dies from a spore spread by toxic lash? Again that's a suggestion if they were to keep spores how they are.

And miasma, if this change is based on the general spread on all death. Then I'd be about it as long as we still get the guaranteed proc per tick. 

All in all I like your package. It encourages spread, which is the natural idea when thinking of poison. I feel like they tried to contain or quarantine her, kinda the same way they did ember. 

And can I add this as a general idea for base elemental warframes. Can we get some kinda of something for getting toxic proc? Ember gets energy but as a master of the base element types I feel for her we should get maybe a damage buff from toxic proc. For another example maybe for volt he could convert electric proc into shield or something but a thought i literally just had. 

In my suggested changes, only the changes I suggested would be changed, everything else would be the same as the current kit.

Plus it would encourage movement and hitting spores because "popping" a spore with toxic lash would give at least an energy back. Not saying 2 wouldn't be better, but something is better than nothing. Not to mention guns are a thing with toxic lash.

As for the toxin, my only guys would be for the previous rewards from 2.0 saryn.

Toxin proc a spore and it pops speading the toxin proc. I don't think DE wants this because I'm not sure how to balance that around this spores kit, and that also encourages you to sit in a corner and snipe one enemy to kill multitudes. 

Not saying I wouldn't like the old toxin procs back, but I get why they removed it. The "potential" damage. 

As for volt, he already has that to a degree I think. (With a bandaid mod like saryn's molt)

 

Edit. 

I'm a dumb. Didn't read it properly the first time.

The toxic proc to saryn from enemies, like ember's passive. I don't particularly like that idea as it requires her to get toxin procs from, if I recall correctly, only like 3 enemies? Whereas ember has bunches that deal her passive. Just my opinion though

Edited June 7, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

6 minutes ago, Reclaimer2448 said:

I do understand how spread on death allows lazy play styles, but I'm sure there's a better way to disallow just sort of sitting back and watching without entirely removing this feature. I want that back and I always constantly pushed myself to actively spread the disease as far as possible. Spread is definitely doable at the right level, but it's less fun than before.

Also, I'd have to disagree every time I see someone say Toxic Lash isn't useful in lower level mission. At least not when they're not super low. I almost always find myself using Toxic Lash to help me in survivals before I start using Spores.

As a sidenote, what does upvoting do? I saw a cool idea earlier and Idk what I'm supposed to do. Prior to this rework, all I ever used the forums for was to report bugs.
 

Upvoting allows forum-goers to see what post people like the most in that forum page. Use it as much you want. Do everything you want to make a post you like reach the devs in a constructive manner.

Quote the post if you have to

Edited June 7, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname
Spelling edits

[Reclaimer2448]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Black Hawksmoor said:

I think there should be an easy way to track infected enemies on the minimap. Maybe have them be a different color or something, that way when there's one enemy left infected and you want to track them down to spread spores, you're able to find them quickly. 

This idea is awesome and totally should happen. I thought of the problem before, but I didn't come up with a solution.

[Jakizu]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

In my suggested changes, only the changes I suggested would be changed, everything else would be the same as the current kit.

Plus it would encourage movement and hitting spores because "popping" a spore with toxic lash would give at least an energy back. Not saying 2 wouldn't be better, but something is better than nothing. Not to mention guns are a thing with toxic lash.

As for the toxin, my only guys would be for the previous rewards from 2.0 saryn.

Toxin proc a spore and it pops speading the toxin proc. I don't think DE wants this because I'm not sure how to balance that around this spores kit, and that also encourages you to sit in a corner and snipe one enemy to kill multitudes. 

Not saying I wouldn't like the old toxin procs back, but I get why they removed it. The "potential" damage. 

As for volt, he already has that to a degree I think. (With a bandaid mod like saryn's molt)

No I meant receiving a toxic proc, I'm ok with it being removed the way it was. But Saryn was built to face the infested and they throw a lot of toxic proc on us. I wouldn't want her exempt from taking toxic damage proc but i feel by nature she should receive some kinda of bonus for it. 

So in mission upon reviving toxic damage proc from an enemy Saryn gains an additional damage buff, or maybe even an amor buff?

[Reclaimer2448]

5 minutes ago, Jakizu said:

No I meant receiving a toxic proc, I'm ok with it being removed the way it was. But Saryn was built to face the infested and they throw a lot of toxic proc on us. I wouldn't want her exempt from taking toxic damage proc but i feel by nature she should receive some kinda of bonus for it. 

So in mission upon reviving toxic damage proc from an enemy Saryn gains an additional damage buff, or maybe even an amor buff? 

I think it would be cool if she could redirect some of it. Maybe like 50% of it gets converted to added toxin damage to next attack?

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

I like the redirect passive idea, but that would be finicky. Changing her passive to add more armor when she gets toxin procs, that I can get behind. Some additional survivability to a relatively squishy frame isn't a bad idea. 

Personally if it has to be anything, the poison frame has to be immune to poison. And in addition gains armor whenever she would be proc'd by it instead. No benefit when poisoning self though, for balance issues. Cerata could easily be a focus because of that

Edited June 7, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname
Spelling edits

[Reclaimer2448]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

I like the redirect passive idea, but that would be finicky. Changing her passive to add more armor when she gets toxin procs, that I can get behind. Some additional survivability to a relatively squishy frame isn't a bad idea. 

Personally if it has to be anything, the poison game has to be immune to poison. And in addition gains armor whenever she would be proc'd by it instead. No benefit when poisoning self though, for balance issues. Cerata could easily be a focus because of that

I wouldn't want this to replace her passive tbh. I thought we were more talking about just adding it. I just always thought it was weird that elemental frames are equally as susceptible to their element as any other Warframe is, like Frost getting frozen and Ember burning. I think it would be cool if said elemental frames were resistant to the element they deal with, but maybe more susceptible to the opposite element. and if fire is the opposite of water, I guess electric would be the opposite of toxin.

[Callback]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

It is really easy to get Spores up to 1000 damage, even with negative power strength. You suggestion would make it really easy for Spores to reach 75% of the enemies health as damage, three times per second. That is not balanced.

Well, actually it would be impossible to reach 75% health as damage - because all the enemies would die instantly long before that point. Everything would die within 2 seconds of Spores at the equivalent of ~200 damage (less than 10 seconds of ramp up).

In other words: Even starting from 0, Spores would kill an entire map of level 9999 enemies in 8 seconds. At 100% power strength.

8 seconds doesn't account for armor, which does apply and needs extra ticks to actually remove.  Ok so it might be a bit much for the ramp, but that's what she already does to lv50- enemies which is basically the whole star chart.  Also 0.15 may be overtuned.  0.05 is more normal compared to current enemies.

 

Either way, 8 seconds is a long time in ESO.  She SHOULD ramp up to gib the map, decay when they all die, and need to start ramping again.  She'd still be killing those 9999s a lot slower than a 100% power strength Octavia mallet.

 

My point is that the ramp is too slow and the decay too fast.  There's a middle ground somewhere, by some minor tweaks to each of them.

[SyBuhr]

7 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

I wasn't sub-@ing you mate, I know you've been active and level headed during these ongoing changes and I appreciate it as someone who spent hours, and hours, and hours reading saryn's wiki before these changes occurred or were announced. Why can't we have a frame who can debuff and do damage? What I want to say is, if DE was okay with a frame like that existing they would not have changed Saryn. But these changes seem like Pablo just wanted to finish the project he started. It seems like Pablo came back to Saryn, which he started thinking about back in February before Onslaught was out for everyone who believes these changes are happening because of Onslaught, because he was creatively unsatisfied with where he left her. Albeit where she was, was not bad, I don't think it was where he wanted her to be. You're right, there is no reason that I can think of which bars us from having a debuff and damage frame. I shouldn't have used that as a reason for why she might have been changed because in a greater analysis it doesn't hold up.

 

If you've ever played KingdomHearts, it feels like Saryn has just pulled a Riku and accepted the darkness into her heart and become something she should not have ever become. But we can't go back to Destiny Island, because things aren't the same anymore,we can't roll back the code. If we were to roll back the code because 2.0 fans got screwed, but had to screw over 3.0 fans in the process of doing so, we would still be back at square one. Two wrongs don't make a right. Now Saryn is on this path, and everyone who truly enjoys playing her needs to make sure she doesn't get lost to the Darkness. If Sora became mad at what Riku had become and lost sight of the good he knew existed within his friend and let the darkness within Riku's heart bar him from pursuing Riku, we would have never had a story. Just a sad boy laden with resentment in a world in-between worlds. Like I said, two wrongs don't make a right, we can't screw over some people to appease some people because we'll be right back at square one. We can't go back to what she was because of this, and it seems like Saryn is going to be what she is for a while. But that's just called hard work for those who want her future to be more than her present.

I think you're cracking open a real gripe most people don't know how to articulate, and that is:

11 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

Over-all, her spores have become a more selfish-spore than before, and I think that's what I dislike

If there is a way for her play style to be selfish, and non-selfish at the same time, we should at the very least turn our heads to what that might look like. Not necessarily needing to walk down that path, just simply looking in its direction.

 

EDIT: And I'm not saying you are advocating for a rollback, I'm am trying to say that our only answers for what Saryn should be lay in the future of what she can be not in the past of what she was.

 

Yep, that's correct. I was just lurking and responding to a post. I saw that caught my eye. 

Firstly, interesting analogy using Kingdom Hearts. I had a good chuckle from it, but you aren't wrong. But either way, one party will be screwed over; Should it be the players who played her thoroughly, and enjoyed her during her 2.0 time, and even maybe during her 1.0 time-frame? Or should it be the newcomers to Saryn, who are now only playing her because they want the highest DPS possible, and it lines up perfectly with their playstyles? That's really an incredibly difficult question, because you'll always have division over it. On the one hand, anything that brings in New-players (as long as it is, y'know, ethical) is a pretty positive change. But there is a level of contempt that I've seen and heard of from several of the veteran players, who started at the beginning of the game. No matter what change DE brings, it's going to always be held critically, and sometimes even negatively.

I disagree, they can always roll-back the code. I don't know if they should, but they could do so. Personally speaking, we have plenty of DPS frames that fulfill a given player's desire to have the most kills and DPS in the squad. Players are only now moving to Saryn because of how well she functions in Onslaught, and high end missions, and through the fact that her DPS has become a monster of a thing. I don't normally put a whole lot of weight into what I see on youtube, but if you look on youtube now, you'll find a lot of Partners (QuietteShy for instance, or Rio) now stating what a great DPS frame she is. And for the players who never really valued her during her 2.0 time-frame, their loss of a single DPS frame that they never valued at the start is a fairly moot point, in my mind. Also, while this rework was planned before Onslaught arrived, that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't with Onslaught in mind; Digital Extremes is pretty tight-knit, all things considered. To imply that there was no inkling (Woomy) that there was a new mission type seems a bit far-fetched, but who knows. It just feels awfully convenient that the new game-mode that is out, is the same one where she operates at maximum capacity.

I don't think she should get nerfed, far from it. We have very few frames that offer high-tier scaling damage.

But I'll always view this particular revisit as a nerf to her playstyle.

No play style can fulfill both Selfish, and Unselfish needs, only the design can do that. For instance, during her 2.0 time, you could mod her for damage, and then utilize weapons to supplement that damage to achieve deadly numbers per-second. Alternatively, you could mod for Duration and range, and pursue a more passive/support role by debuffing the enemies with viral, and still greatly contribute to the team, because most people run Corrosive Projection just to remove that insane armor instantly. That is the over-arching design, but when we consider her current design, it facilitates only more selfish playstyles due to how the new mechanics operate. Any semblance of a passive/support/debuff frame is gone, design-wise, because the main draw now is the DPS, and how that DPS is achieved and in what way. I think that they need to allow spores to spread when an ally kills the target, instead of what we have currently (which is that the Ally must shoot the spores for them to spread). The only concern I have with that, is how are you to control the spores? Even now, spores are unwieldy at best, and inconsistent at worst. I think the problem then is the infinitely scaling damage with infinite duration. With all that infinite going on, Saryn may as well just over-throw Thanos and take the Infinity gauntlet for herself.

In short, play-styles are based on the user, where-as what dictates a viable play-style is the Design of the frame's kit.

I personally think they should make her more skill oriented, since they want her to be action-focused. Have her Spore be a skill-shot AoE that applies spores in a Diameter around impact, have miasma get changed up a bit so people stop spamming it. Spore would then actually reward players for thinking critically on which grouping of enemies they should infect first, or whether it is cost-effective to do so, whilst also giving ever so slightly more of a passive spread, since the spread on death is only once on initial spore-targets. Maybe have miasma synergize with molt, in that if Molt is active, when Miasma is cast near it, it constantly puts out a viral debuff in a set range around it (no constant damage, mind you, just a constant viral proc). This would be sort of interesting, because Molt is meant to gather the enemies up, and now has no other synergy other than those implied by spore. Having it used as a 32m diameter viral emitter would be great for when you can't spam Miasma, either due to picking up a team-mate, or when there are too many eximus units around for it to be cost effective to just spam and keep in a CC loop. 

But I'm just a plebeian so, who knows.

[Reclaimer2448]

23 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

With all that infinite going on, Saryn may as well just over-throw Thanos and take the Infinity gauntlet for herself.

When a space ninja reaches god level powers

 

25 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

Maybe have miasma synergize with molt, in that if Molt is active, when Miasma is cast near it, it constantly puts out a viral debuff in a set range around it (no constant damage, mind you, just a constant viral proc).

Also, cool sounding idea. Would this mean the Molt would put out a viral debuff for the entirety of the Molt's duration, or the Miasma's duration?

[Jakizu]

15 hours ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

I like the redirect passive idea, but that would be finicky. Changing her passive to add more armor when she gets toxin procs, that I can get behind. Some additional survivability to a relatively squishy frame isn't a bad idea. 

Personally if it has to be anything, the poison frame has to be immune to poison. And in addition gains armor whenever she would be proc'd by it instead. No benefit when poisoning self though, for balance issues. Cerata could easily be a focus because of that

Even though I really do adore her current passive, armor would be awesome. I'd say maybe do the energy refund like ember but that would be very limiting in gameplay. 🤔🤔🤔🤔

[SyBuhr]

10 hours ago, Reclaimer2448 said:

When a space ninja reaches god level powers

 

Also, cool sounding idea. Would this mean the Molt would put out a viral debuff for the entirety of the Molt's duration, or the Miasma's duration?

I was thinking the duration of Molt while it is alive, as it would offer a long-term benefit for casting a base 50 and base 75 energy (125 total energy, at base). Miasma's Duration is a bit too short lived for it to be useful aside from spamming for the added CC benefits. It'd also give us a bit of a synergy we've never really had with Saryn, while also offering us a bit of the Viral debuffing we lost passively from 2.0 spores. It'd also allow players who are already doing well to do even better. It also gives an added purpose to utilizing Molt and Miasma respectively. I don't know if I'd have affected targets spread spores, but considering they are all around a Miasma'd Molt, why not? (Base energy consumed then becomes roughly 150 energy, a little less than half Saryn Prime's Base Energy Pool. I don't know how well it would pan over, but it's food for thought.)

Right now, you can use Miasma to apply a guaranteed proc of Viral for roughly 12 seconds or so. However, players aren't utilizing Miasma for its damage output, but rather to spread spores. By adding this synergy, you aren't getting any extra viewable damage out of molt, per-se, but you are getting a constant viral debuff for the duration Molt is active for. It opens a new avenue of play for the frame, where you can mod purely for Duration, use your Molt/Miasma, and have a zone of debuffed enemies that your other team-mates can deal with. It alleviates a bit of the more narrowed-lens that Saryn has been given, which is a DPS frame now. With this, if you had another high-octane Damage dealer such as Equinox, or Octavia, you can (hopefully, agreeably) allow them to dish out the damage they want while still offering a viable Debuff for the squad to play around with. Before, this sort of concept would be scoffed at, because Molt didn't have a grace-period in which it was free to stay alive. With this, you still have the option to Nuke, given a little time, but still retain the ability to greatly weaken enemies in a select area while Molt is active, have those enemies drawn to that Molt, and pick-up a team-mate who might have gotten the business from a Grineer Bombard. It'd offer greater utility to something that otherwise serves as a decoy, with no other real added benefit or synergies.

Lastly, you wouldn't use this Synergy for low-levels, or potentially even mid-tier missions, because it'd be too energy inefficient. This synergy would be purely a means of rewarding players for utilizing their Molt appropriately, following it with Miasma for CC (Because you most likely won't use Molt unless there is a problem). That said, I am still sort of drafting ideas on what I think would be good for Saryn for Low-level to Mid-level missions would look like. I think her Spores should become a Skill shot with travel time, instead of this instant-point-n-click death ability. I mentioned previously that, maybe have Saryn lob (or mortar) a Spore bomb, similar to how spores work in Creeper World, and upon impact, enemies would become spored in that area. Consider a Torid cloud, but incredibly thick with a slight duration on that cloud still distributing spores. This would alleviate some of the spread issues in lower-mid range missions, offer Saryn a zoning method (to an extent), and reward skilled aim. The duration the cloud stays would be modifiable by duration, and the sphere-of-influence it would be active for would be modifiable by range. If you wanted to go full duration, you'd be able to again. If you wanted to stay max range, you'd be able to as well. I would take that, over what we have currently any day, even if the Damage scaling was reduced again. We currently have no frame with this sort of Mortar-esque ability, where it is arched instead of shot in a straight line, and I'd personally would have field day just skill-shotting enemies with it, over this sort of bland Click Enemy, Shoot Enemy, Done. It'd make it a bit more enjoyable, and offer a higher-skill ceiling for veteran players too.

But that's all a Mirage for right now. Maybe I am just caught in the Undertow of silly ramblings.

I'm sorry for the Avalanche of silliness. I'll Freeze right here.

 

^{_{send help, please.}}

[Konachibi]

So I did ESO as Valkyr Prime a few days ago (maybe a week ago, I forget) in public matchmaking.  Got partied with a Saryn that was obviously using Spores.  

What I found was that if I helped the Saryn player pop spores by shooting at them, the entire spread would burn out too quickly, as they spread too rapidly and killed off everything before new enemies could spawn, forcing her to have to spam them, so actually attempting to help a Saryn is doing the complete opposite, it's being extremely unhelpful.  That's the most backwards thing I've seen in a long time.

The only good thing I can say about it is Spored enemies were easier to kill in melee, so Saryn is a great help to melee focussed frames (read as: great help to Valkyr and only Valkyr because enemies dieing to spores can really screw over Atlas's rubble mechanic.)

I miss when you could combine Saryn with Mag or Nova, Polarize and Molecular Prime used to combine brilliantly with Spores, where as now they work against the ability by killing it off too rapidly instead of helping it spread.

So yeah, now the only frame Saryn is helpful to is the one frame that can already make herself invincible anyways, and she's completely none co-operative to every other frame in the game.  If you intended to kill off Saryn, this is how you do it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Konachibi

[GPrime96]

I tried Saryn in Hydron after her Spore/ability Rework and her Survivability don't seem to be that much different for me but she can nuke Defense missions though. The problem is spreading the spores without somebody killing the enemies. Spores tends to spread better with Toxic Lash and Miasma than by itself unlike old Saryn where it spreads better by itself. When you play with a Speed Nova or a SQ Banshee, spreading the spores becomes annoying since a group of enemies can die right before you get to use Toxic lash or Miasma on them. I can see her being stronger now but killing the enemies as her is not what i call fun.

[Reclaimer2448]

4 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

It'd offer greater utility to something that otherwise serves as a decoy, with no other real added benefit or synergies.

Does super speeding your way to extraction count as utility? with my strength build I get a speed multiplier of about 3x, and since I almost always have tons of excess energy at the end of a mission, it feels a lot like speeding out with a Volt.

[SyBuhr]

4 hours ago, Reclaimer2448 said:

Does super speeding your way to extraction count as utility? with my strength build I get a speed multiplier of about 3x, and since I almost always have tons of excess energy at the end of a mission, it feels a lot like speeding out with a Volt.

 

4 hours ago, Reclaimer2448 said:

It'd offer greater utility... no other real added benefit or synergies.

Yes, speed does count as utility. However, every frame can go fast, so I don't personally know if I'd consider it to be very useful in many situations, which is something a utility should do (although, that point in particular is debatable, because one could argue getting to extract is vital, especially if everyone else is bleeding out). Bullet jump -> Double Jump -> Roll with precise timing can make you move at a relatively similar pace, which is why I don't really see the added speed boost as something that makes or breaks Molt, or give it any beneficial synergies with her other abilities. It's nice, but I can't say I use it often purely for the speed boost, because the above-mentioned set of movements pretty much get you around pretty quickly. Only difference is that you'll be locked into a direction with those combo-movements, instead of slip-sliding around while running. The other concern is that Grineer (and some Corrupted), have some pretty solid aiming even if they aren't using Hit-scan weapons. I might use it if a team-mate goes down far away from me, but that's the only circumstance I can really think of, since you could theoretically use the momentum for the above mentioned combos to achieve a higher velocity. I've actually grown used to those movement mechanics (It's Carpal Tunnel City at first, but you get used to it), and you could even use a 2-handed pole-arm to attack midair to get a similar boost effect (So instead of rolling at the end, you could simply left-click while in the air. Depending on Attack speed, you might be able to do this twice or even three times before landing).

I personally prefer Volt's speed boost, (even if it only affected myself, theoretically) because it enhances all animations, not just those pertaining to sprinting. To be honest, I am not entirely sure why they even gave her Molt a Speed-boost, since I don't ever recall seeing it brought up anywhere as a requested change.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

34 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

 

Yes, speed does count as utility. However, every frame can go fast, so I don't personally know if I'd consider it to be very useful in many situations, which is something a utility should do (although, that point in particular is debatable, because one could argue getting to extract is vital, especially if everyone else is bleeding out). Bullet jump -> Double Jump -> Roll with precise timing can make you move at a relatively similar pace, which is why I don't really see the added speed boost as something that makes or breaks Molt, or give it any beneficial synergies with her other abilities. It's nice, but I can't say I use it often purely for the speed boost, because the above-mentioned set of movements pretty much get you around pretty quickly. Only difference is that you'll be locked into a direction with those combo-movements, instead of slip-sliding around while running. The other concern is that Grineer (and some Corrupted), have some pretty solid aiming even if they aren't using Hit-scan weapons. I might use it if a team-mate goes down far away from me, but that's the only circumstance I can really think of, since you could theoretically use the momentum for the above mentioned combos to achieve a higher velocity. I've actually grown used to those movement mechanics (It's Carpal Tunnel City at first, but you get used to it), and you could even use a 2-handed pole-arm to attack midair to get a similar boost effect (So instead of rolling at the end, you could simply left-click while in the air. Depending on Attack speed, you might be able to do this twice or even three times before landing).

I personally prefer Volt's speed boost, (even if it only affected myself, theoretically) because it enhances all animations, not just those pertaining to sprinting. To be honest, I am not entirely sure why they even gave her Molt a Speed-boost, since I don't ever recall seeing it brought up anywhere as a requested change.

My thoughts on the speed boost is because DE couldn't justify the changes to spore without it. For the simple reason of they themselves could not catch up to spore without it

[SyBuhr]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

My thoughts on the speed boost is because DE couldn't justify the changes to spore without it. For the simple reason of they themselves could not catch up to spore without it

Or they could have used Ignis wraith, and do that instead. Spreading spores with that is practically trivial, add to the fact that I don't have to worry about my weapon's damage out-put, just how quickly I can squiggle around my mouse and pop the spores on my screen (Can someone say Upgraded Mesa?), since enemies will already be Tagged for Death. It disappoints me, because you'd think the ability would work well with a lot of the weapons, but I only find exceptional efficiency when paired with weapons that provide large Area-coverage. Ignis wraith does that fairly well, without the draw-back of potentially killing myself when compared to weapons such as the Zarr, Ogris, or Tonkor. After all, why should I care about my weapon damage, when all that matters is the spreading of spores? Why should I care about anything else during the game? Does Toxic Lash or Miasma even matter at that point? Mostly not.

I can't say I enjoy this method of play, but it works much better than trying to catch up via Molt Speed buffs, or even bothering to use Toxic Lash. Why use those abilities, when my Ignis will just pop all the spores when it hits, regardless? Ignis was a solid weapon back in 2.0 because of this same reason, only now it is more pronounced after the numerous changes to her Spores and their spread-mechanics.

It doesn't seem like a valid reason, in my eyes then, but theoretically, it would make sense if Toxic Lash remained essentially as it did back in 2.0. Why? The speed boost from Molt would allow the player to close the distance, Toxic Lash the spores, and get some of that energy back that was lost to catch up. Only now, we have no built-in energy regain methods, making it a severely inefficient means when compared to the Ignis method.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Get this, yeah? 

Explosive weapons don't spread spores. Not unless they're paired with toxic lash, or hit the spores directly. The boom doesn't do it. 

[Reclaimer2448]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Get this, yeah? 

Explosive weapons don't spread spores. Not unless they're paired with toxic lash, or hit the spores directly. The boom doesn't do it. 

A lot of the times I feel like my Ignis isn't spreading them around until I use Toxic Lash either, with the exception of when my cross-hair is right on the spore. Didn't they (explosives in general) used to spread it in 2.0?

 

[(PSN)Radehx]

Toxic lash should ALWAYS be on, it's such an amazing damage boost! She's got no energy issues because you don't really have to spam her abilities (unless you play at low levels). 

[DjKaplis]

On 2018-06-05 at 11:38 PM, SyBuhr said:

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If you know LifeOfRio (YouTube,  Twitch), he just made a video and analysis on the new Saryn. It appears he shares my opinion that the new Saryn is even better than before.

And sorry, he has countless videos that back up that he actually knows what he's talking about while we don't know much about you. I understand that every person likes to play differently though. Sorry that you like Saryn less than before the rework.

 

[Konachibi]

2 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

And sorry, he has countless videos that back up that he actually knows what he's talking about while we don't know much about you. I understand that every person likes to play differently though. Sorry that you like Saryn less than before the rework.

The thing is there's more people who hate the Saryn rework compared to the people who like it.  The "this was a good rework" crowd is only a tiny handful compared to the mass of people who liked her during her 2.0 days and hate her now.  There may be ways to make Saryn incredibly powered but it forces the player to play her in a particular way rather than allowing her to be fluid and cater to any situation, and any frame that forces you to play a particular way is not a good frame (see Limbo for further information).

Edited June 9, 2018 by Konachibi

[SyBuhr]

4 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

On 2018-06-05 at 4:38 PM, SyBuhr said:

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If you know LifeOfRio (YouTube,  Twitch), he just made a video and analysis on the new Saryn. It appears he shares my opinion that the new Saryn is even better than before.

And sorry, he has countless videos that back up that he actually knows what he's talking about while we don't know much about you. I understand that every person likes to play differently though. Sorry that you like Saryn less than before the rework.

Let me dissect this for you a bit then, because you miss my reasoning for not liking the new Saryn.

Firstly, I want to mention this line, because this bothers me:

Quote

"And sorry, he has countless videos that back up that he actually knows what he's talking about while we don't know much about you."

Let's begin with the argument "He has many videos, so he must be right" fallacy. Just because someone sits at their monitor, and gushes over a frame's rework, doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about, just like how I sit at my monitor and critique a frame's rework doesn't mean I know what I am talking about. I have seen his videos, and they are literally just a bunch of memes thrown in, such as "god, she thicc now". Let's take DarkSydePhil, he has a ton of Youtube game videos, right? He must know how to play those games! You see the point I am making. Secondly, that "And Sorry" statement is just plan out unnecessary and condescending. Life isn't this game of "The Popular Person should only speak for us" sort of drivel. 

Now, let's begin with the real meat of the issue, since you didn't bother to read any of my earlier posts, which is clear, because I made my stance in those posts practically transparent.

She's buffed in the sense that, yes, she can put out ridiculous damage numbers especially when certain conditions are met. She has become a better DPS frame because of this.

However, she has been "Nerfed" in the sense that, she is more limited in play-styles and builds. You are not going to see a Debuff Saryn now, anymore because of this change in design. Her over-arching design has forced a Selfish-Saryn playstyle. If you have more than one Saryn in your PUG, one of them is going to be a useless tool trying to be useful. If you have another DPS frame other than that Saryn, they will also either end up a Useless tool, or gimp the Saryn. Why? Because team-mates hinder spreads if they don't shoot the spores (which they have to, it can't just be killed), because there are a ton of other DPS frames that fill the role just as well, and will be competing to get kills, because that's their playstyle too.

Everyone here agrees that she has ludicrous damage, no one is going to ever dispute that. People (such as myself) may dispute the inconsistent mechanics behind those, or the selfish-playstyles it creates, but no one here is insane enough to say her damage is poor. We can say that she functions poorly on low-mid level missions, and shines the best when in high end missions, and in Onslaught. Even then, that's iffy, depending on faction. We can theorize that she has been potentially balanced around a game-mode not representing roughly %65 of what Warframe offers. We can say all those things, and be correct (or relatively so) in our assertions, because that's what is evident to us thus far.

Saryn is not necessarily better than she was before, due to the fact that she has now had her entire Debuff design gutted. Why should I bother Debuffing enemies, especially when the most used Aura in the game already strips that armor away from everyone? Why should I use Miasma, when an Ignis will offer just as decent results in spreading? Why should I mod for damage, when it will scale infinitely? Why should I mod for anything other than spores at this point? Molt has no Synergies at all, Toxic Lash is a less effecient Miasma (and why use it when you can bring an Ignis that will always pop spores), Miasma is still Miasma, and is now more frequently spammed then ever before. This is all indication of poorly planned design. Does it mean it's the worst? Heavens, NO. But it does mean that somewhere, things changed, and it has narrowed her Viable Playstyles.

Essentially, now you only have two predominant playstyles: Power Strength, and Range. Why? Because the range will offer you more enemies effected. Power-strength to kill those enemies. To say she's better in this regard, is just plan silly, and shows that Rio only cares about high DPS. Which is fine, but it wasn't Saryn's intended design, as a Debuff frame. To put it in perspective, She could dish out this damage during her 2.0 time nearly instantly with a decent enough setup, and a good enough riven, while offering a Debuff (Viral) that nothing else in the game offers in the same scale and scope.

Now, if your Team-mates have Corrosive Projection, You've lost that minuscule Debuff potential. Again, why do anything other than Spores? Spores will always kill now, and for everyone who LOVES DPS frames (because we totally don't have enough of those, cough equinox, Octavia, Mirage, Ash, Nidus, cough), this rework is great.

But what about the people who loved her as a Debuff support frame? Well, tough S#&$ lad, because the only miniscule debuff she has (corrosive on spores), is practically the most used Aura and Element on weapons. Viral at 75 base energy isn't even worth it at that point, just put it on your Ignis Wraith, because why wouldn't you use that weapon (and only that) on Saryn at this point. Only purpose for Miasma is those last second spore spreads, that's it. 

This is what I mean by a nerf. You have only one play-style: Kill everything, be as selfish as possible, your team is literally a hindrance to you. It isn't a good design choice to force that, when the amount of DPS frames are already pretty filled out, and are the go-to for most PUG players (so that they can "Carry Their Team"). Why should I play any other DPS frame now? There's only one reason: Because your PUGs are going to be assaulted with 2-3 Saryn players, and there are only so many slots for spores to be on an enemy. Saryn's are literally CHOKING out other DPS frames and other Saryns. Hell, Saryn is choking out practically everything.

Is that good design to you? Is she in a better spot now because of that? Is that what you really want a Frame to be? I can't tell you how many games have been Disbanded once the host saw I was Saryn. It must be like 20 or so at this point. I can't tell you how many games people actively worked against me, by killing enemies so quick that I just become a useless twat. I can't tell you how unenthused players get, when all they have to do is sit around and let the Saryn work. It is the most boring, un-fun experience I've had. It isn't what a Team-Shooter is supposed to be, where only one frame goes around doing S#&$, and all the other sit, dance, or t-bag 24/7 until the mission ends. Don't get me wrong, I like what they did in terms of them taking a risk, but it didn't pay off in my eyes.

If you like DPS frames, where you are the only person playing, and your team-mates are complete hindrance to you, She is now PERFECT for you.

For everyone else who actually enjoys trying to play the game in a team-shooter, look else-where, or play Solo. (Something I've been told to do in squad chat.)

In a game that is multiplayer predominantly, it is ironic, that your Spores are more valuable to you (The player) than your actual team-mates. Say a team-mate went down somewhere, am I going to risk my spores and stacks to go save that person? Hell NO. They better waste their revive, and that's the sentiment I feel now, that is the MANTRA that Saryn exudes now. Before I'd say, "Doesn't matter, spores will spread passively, Spores will debuff and do their primary job, my team mates are still going to enjoy playing so idrgaf lol hehe xd".

None of what she offers now, offers that. If you actually read anything I've said, you'd know that. Hell, if you played her during her 2.0 time, you'd know that, it'd be evident as day! 

When I play with another Saryn, I literally get up, run to Subway and get a Teriyaki Chicken sub Footlong, eat it at my computer, move occasionally, and guess what, mission Success. Why should I bother playing, when I myself have first-hand experience knowing what it is like when a Team-mate tries to play with me as Saryn? I know as a team-mate, I am just going to get in the way, and that isn't a buff. Don't get me wrong, I still go to extract with the team and all, but why should I bother doing literally anything other than Moving, breathing, and eating my Sub?

 

TL;DR : Take a knee for a moment, stop saying Sorry, you'll end up a Sorry Individual. While your at it, re-read the posts I've put in this thread, because you clearly don't understand why I don't like her now as opposed to before. If you can't bother to read the wall of text the first time to truly understand why I don't like a frame, and have no interest in an honest conversation to make her better, than I have nothing left to say to you. I don't think we disagree that she's become an awesome DPS frame, to the point that many are fore-going other frames. But design-wise, she has fewer viable play-styles offered, and she is choking out other team-mates from enjoying a team-based game.

Edited June 9, 2018 by SyBuhr
Spelling Errors, Video Removed from Quote, people can go view it in the original post.