Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

[Sasuda]

1 minute ago, Senketsu_ said:

, this broke her role

Yes it did before in it's broken state, but if it were made into something small she could do I personally IMO think she can still fit her role as primarily a support with a little trick up her sleeve.  Again it'd be fine Nerf it even to the point where really you're better off using the weapon without the trick. But I think it's fine to have players able to do something outside the box. I think it's a good game design strategy to allow some thinking outside the box. Maybe that's just me.  Lots of emphasis on the small here. Because I think there is a happier medium achievable where players who, even if they invested into something obviously broken or dumb or whatever, nonetheless who found something interesting and unique aren't left totally backhanded.

I also think some of the greatest and most interesting parts of a game can be found or created by accident, and we can take advantage of it. Shift it into an appropriate tactic rather than say that's not from the mold it must be removed.

[(XBOX)CryingCross4970]

being this upset over something is a bit silly, people will find another way to make her op again, just like every other frame after every patch 

[Senketsu_]

1 minute ago, Sasuda said:

Yes it did before in it's broken state, but if it were made into something small she could do I personally IMO think she can still fit her role as primarily a support with a little trick up her sleeve.  Again it'd be fine Nerf it even to the point where really you're better off using the weapon without the trick. But I think it's fine to have players able to do something outside the box. I think it's a good game design strategy to allow some thinking outside the box. Maybe that's just me.  Lots of emphasis on the small here. Because I think there is a happier medium achievable where players who, even if they invested into something obviously broken or dumb or whatever, nonetheless who found something interesting and unique aren't left totally backhanded.

I also think some of the greatest and most interesting parts of a game can be found or created by accident, and we can take advantage of it. Shift it into an appropriate tactic rather than say that's not from the mold it must be removed.

the little trick up her sleeve is that Link takes damage dealt to her and shares it to enemies who are linked to her. this is meant as a self defense mechanic and not a nuking DPS one, thats the main reason it was removed. it broke her role. You would see whole squads sole made up of trinities all using this one thing.

Now POSSIBLY I could see this thing returning as a augment mod, and I would be more fine with that becasue it would just be an "extra" little thing, and be properly scaled by the devs. 

[Klokwerkaos]

7 minutes ago, Senketsu_ said:

the little trick up her sleeve is that Link takes damage dealt to her and shares it to enemies who are linked to her. this is meant as a self defense mechanic and not a nuking DPS one, thats the main reason it was removed. it broke her role. You would see whole squads sole made up of trinities all using this one thing.

Now POSSIBLY I could see this thing returning as a augment mod, and I would be more fine with that becasue it would just be an "extra" little thing, and be properly scaled by the devs. 

That would be a viable solution, however, that is not the case, instead they rendered the whole investment innert without any intention of making it viable, thereby discouraging all experimention and heavy investment into anything something that is patently unwise to do ever, thereby taking away the main reason to bother to get to MR 25 to begin with.

That's the main problem, it disincentivises all experimentation and heavy investment.

I was going to drop 20k on a kohm riven today.  Not after this.  Why should I?  It's clear if I do, as soon as I manage to bother making it worthwhile and useful it will be nerfed since that would make it the single best weapon in the game (as it would substantial outperform a tigris I have with an exceptional god tier riven).

Why should I invest in anything ever again that is anything beyond the scope of what casuals can invest in since they will just whine until it gets nerfed?

F that and F the policy that supports it.

Additionally, for the 10000th time, she can't do ANYTHING AND BE UNKILLABLE.

If anything trinity castanas went down with a stray bullet come round 6, because the build itself removes survivability and viability of all her other abilities, so in this, you are flat out WRONG.  She can't do it all, not at the same time.  If you want to complain she is unkillable with different builds, that's a whole separate argument from this and I don't appreciate you continuing to conflate them as it is a disingenuous argument.

 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[Elanair]

I think the lesson here is to NOT invest 1000 plat in cheese tactics or anything that looks even remotely broken, or not invest that amount in anything if you aren't willing to accept the risk that some investments just don't pay off in the end but hey, look at the bright side.. she's still a good support frame! That must count for something, right? Right? Nothing? Really? Just me? Ok... 

Also... is anyone really surprised by this nerf? Only me? Nobody else thought that maybe this was a bug, that it was working a bit 'too' good, that it made a support frame into something it wasn't supposed to be? No? Aww c'mon, I'm pretty sure most of you had that nagging feeling, the only difference is (probably) that... most choose to ignore it and now we ended up here.

Moral of the story? Listen to the little nagging feeling, it might save you 1000 plat! For those of you who are lacking that nagging feeling, you have my sympathies. 🙁

On a more serious note, might suggest Volt for Onslaught if you need a new DPS frame. Works pretty well for me. Hope that helps!

[Senketsu_]

1 minute ago, Klokwerkaos said:

 

the Trinity EV build is definitely needed because it supplies the DPS frames with the energy they need to keep their DPS going. Thats her filling the role she was intended for.

And yes Ash is comparable. his #1 is a tracking through wall forced bleed proc that deals a lot of damage with forced bleed procs, and with BS you have a rapid fire, shoot and forget target killer. 

I did read you original post you are upset that DE fixed Trinity and that you spend a huge amount of plat on a broken build. Only difference is you think your investment and now outrage is justified, while I think it isn't.

this is not a trolling it is whats called a debate. you are offering an argument, and I am offering counterpoints, and vise versa. 

[Senketsu_]

4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

That would be a viable solution, however, that is not the case, instead they rendered the whole investment innert without any intention of making it viable, thereby discouraging all experimention and heavy investment into anything something that is patently unwise to do ever, thereby taking away the main reason to bother to get to MR 25 to begin with.

That's the main problem, it disincentivises all experimentation and heavy investment.

I was going to drop 20k on a kohm riven today.  Not after this.  Why should I?  It's clear if I do, as soon as I manage to bother making it worthwhile and useful it will be nerfed since that would make it the single best weapon in the game (as it would substantial outperform a tigris I have with an exceptional god tier riven).

Why should I invest in anything ever again that is anything beyond the scope of what casuals can invest in since they will just whine until it gets nerfed?

F that.

Additionally, for the 10000th time, she can't do ANYTHING AND BE UNKILLABLE.

If anything trinity castanas went down with a stray bullet come round 6, because the build itself removes survivability and viability of all her other abilities, so in this, you are flat out WRONG.  She can't do it all, not at the same time.  If you want to complain she is unkillable with different builds, that's a whole separate argument from this and I don't appreciate you continuing to conflate them as it is a disingenuous argument.

 

wait you were going to drop 20,000 plat on a khom riven?!? I dont care what build you want it for, you should NEVER pay that much for ANYTHING on the game.

But heres the thing though. In you original post, you could've have shared your outrage and then came up with ways to possibly make both sides happy. Instead you just complained and bashed the devs instead of offering real criticism 

[Klokwerkaos]

6 minutes ago, Senketsu_ said:

wait you were going to drop 20,000 plat on a khom riven?!? I dont care what build you want it for, you should NEVER pay that much for ANYTHING on the game.

But heres the thing though. In you original post, you could've have shared your outrage and then came up with ways to possibly make both sides happy. Instead you just complained and bashed the devs instead of offering real criticism 

And I already have proposed half a dozen solutions in the feedback forums over the last month.  You didn't read them, that's your failing, and I don't need to reiterate everything I have said hundred times here when it's already been completely ignored.

And do you not see why your argument is bad?

Why shouldn't I invest in a weapon?  If I play (or conversely, pay) enough to invest so substantially, I should be able to reap that level of reward... except I can't, I'm constrained to what the casuals think is OK and viable, and therein lies the problem.  It flat out disincentives veterans and endgame players from bothering to continue to play by guaranteeing any investment they make that is worthwhile will be rendered obsolete without any concern.

If you think that's OK, then WTF?

What is the reason to play at all?  

If you can't up your game with continued investment in the game through time or money, that completely invalidates any incentive to bother.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[(XBOX)CryingCross4970]

spending 20k plat is a bit silly, do you know how much that is, could pay rent with that money, and is the rivin really worth it? x.x 

[Sasuda]

8 minutes ago, Senketsu_ said:

little trick up her sleeve is that Link takes damage dealt to her and shares it to enemies who are linked to her

That's not a trick up her sleeve, it's verbatim what the ability does. There's no trick to figure out there there's no thinking outside the box. You are following the exact rules laid out.

1 minute ago, Senketsu_ said:

not a nuking DPS one, thats the main reason it was removed. it broke her role. You would see whole squads sole made up of trinities all using this one thing.

Again, I'm not asking for it to be that. I don't want it to be the same as it was. What I'm saying is instead of taking something clever and broken and removing it, how about we keep the clever, and remove the broken. In this case, keep self damage applying some damage to enemies but (big BUT) have the damage and or range severely limited.

Maybe if I put some numbers for context it'll make more sense.  If you reduce 90% damage on yourself, you reduce 90% (or if you had 99% then you'd reduce by 99%) of the self-damage sent out through link (instead of 100% of the damage applied to all linked targets which is what made it broken) that alone makes it not something you'd be likely to use. Or have it only apply self-applied link damage to 1 link target at 30% of it's normal damage. I think both of those alone are examples that would work and very much don't make it a nuke or break her role.

While it could... be an augment it's incredibly niche with limited weapon selections for a Warframe ability augment. it would be interesting though.

[Senketsu_]

1 minute ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Your point is that I'm not right to be pissed about a substantial investment being rendered completely useless and the implications that this breeds.

I'm saying that argument is not even worth considering because you're being contrarian and obstinate and I have every right to be pissed about it.

If it was at all viable, even a little and not as good, and I did propose several solutions that went completely ignored that would have done so, then i wouldn't be pissed, but rendering it useless is unconscionable and rightly deserves outrage from every logical argument.  They knew that would come, so now they can have it.  And you read my POST, sure, but not the thread.  Many points you raise are already debunked.  

Your argument continues to be invalid, and Ash doesn't compete with those, not by any numbers I've seen.  Is he usable and viable?  Sure.  Is he going to top the chart over frames better suited?  Nope.

no you can be upset. But you arent offering any constructive feedback on the matter. While I think no one should drop a 1000 plot on any one build, the games just not worth that. So yeah I disagree with your investment.

But you arent going to get anywhere with simply making an inflammatory post with a bunch of dev bashing. You need to structure why you are upset, and offer actual solutions that will make both parties happy, or as close as possible. Like the Idea of selfdamage tin being a augment mod. that reasonably fixes both parties issues. 

I do disagree that this will hurt players ability to experiment. Becasue the roles exist for players to experiment within those roles. not to break those roles. 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, (XB1)CryingCross4970 said:

spending 20k plat is a bit silly, do you know how much that is, could pay rent with that money, and is the rivin really worth it? x.x 

What makes you think I spent a dime to get any of that plat?

And I can't sell the plat without violating TOS, so I hope that's not what you're suggesting.

This is the problem, the policy of nerfing worthwhile investments means that endgame players might as well just quit because there is no point in investing further.

[(XBOX)CryingCross4970]

1 minute ago, Klokwerkaos said:

What makes you think I spent a dime to get any of that plat?

And I can't sell the plat without violating TOS, so I hope that's not what you're suggesting.

This is the problem, the policy of nerfing worthwhile investments means that endgame players might as well just quit because there is no point in investing further.

most people with that much tend to buy is sorry x.x 

[More-L]

9 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

And I already have proposed half a dozen solutions in the feedback forums over the last month.  You didn't read them, that's your failing, and I don't need to reiterate everything I have said hundred times here when it's already been completely ignored.

Actually the people discussing this with you aren't required to check every post you've made. If anything you should link them in the OP or copy/paste them as a spoiler.

I can understand how you would get annoyed with the recent change to Trinity, and I personally think DE is at fault for leaving this in so long. All the people saying "But she is support not DPS" don't seem to understand her abilities don't only have to complement 1 role. Look at Octavia for god's sake, DPS, support, cc, buffer.

Removing Trinity's only way to actually deal reasonable damage without any form of compensation was the problem here. Just make link not carry damage over to another target and boom, fixed.

Edited June 6, 2018 by More-L

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, Senketsu_ said:

no you can be upset. But you arent offering any constructive feedback on the matter. While I think no one should drop a 1000 plot on any one build, the games just not worth that. So yeah I disagree with your investment.

But you arent going to get anywhere with simply making an inflammatory post with a bunch of dev bashing. You need to structure why you are upset, and offer actual solutions that will make both parties happy, or as close as possible. Like the Idea of selfdamage tin being a augment mod. that reasonably fixes both parties issues. 

I do disagree that this will hurt players ability to experiment. Becasue the roles exist for players to experiment within those roles. not to break those roles. 

Excuse you?

Are you not even paying attention?

1000p is about the mininum to spend to make a viable build when you account for primed mods and eidolon lenses, not even considered your weapons loadout.

And if you think players shouldn't experiment and break roles to be creative in finding new ways to play that are more effective, then why bother playing at all?

Lunaro?

Seriously, this is nonsense.  You agree with my points but can't agree that it's wrong because what?  You worship an alter of authority?  That is absolutely rhetorical nonsense.

I can't take you seriously, and further, I did propose changes, again, half a dozen reasonable ones over the last month, and all were ignored.  Why should I repeat them again when they were already ignored?  For your benefit?  I don't think so.

[Senketsu_]

5 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

And I already have proposed half a dozen solutions in the feedback forums over the last month.  You didn't read them, that's your failing, and I don't need to reiterate everything I have said hundred times here when it's already been completely ignored.

And do you not see why your argument is bad?

Why shouldn't I invest in a weapon?  If I play (or conversely, pay) enough to invest so substantially, I should be able to reap that level of reward... except I can't, I'm constrained to what the casuals think is OK and viable, and therein lies the problem.  It flat out disincentives veterans and endgame players from bothering to continue to play by guaranteeing any investment they make that is worthwhile will be rendered obsolete without any concern.

If you think that's OK, then WTF?

What is the reason to play at all?  

If you can't up your game with continued investment in the game through time or money, that completely invalidates any incentive to bother.

heres the thing. it dosnt matter if I read them. I know for a fact that DE does read feedback posts, and they probably put a lot of thought into the choice they made. In the end, like it or not, this is their game. And in the terms of service they do state that they can and will make large changes to the game. Plus DE is very good about compensating players when they make big changes. this wasnt big enough of a change. You just simply got screwed with your investment. However making an investment does mean that sometimes it dosnt pan out. 

[Klokwerkaos]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)CryingCross4970 said:

most people with that much tend to buy is sorry x.x 

I have bought plat in the past, but none of that plat was purchased.

In my experience, people with over 10k plat generally earned it through trade because that's a ridiculous amount of money to spend even if you have tons of disposable income.

In general, I can trade for about 300-800 (sometimes a 1000) plat a day, not counting rivens.  This is entirely possible for anyone to do, it just takes a lot of understanding the market.

[Klokwerkaos]

2 minutes ago, Senketsu_ said:

heres the thing. it dosnt matter if I read them. I know for a fact that DE does read feedback posts, and they probably put a lot of thought into the choice they made. In the end, like it or not, this is their game. And in the terms of service they do state that they can and will make large changes to the game. Plus DE is very good about compensating players when they make big changes. this wasnt big enough of a change. You just simply got screwed with your investment. However making an investment does mean that sometimes it dosnt pan out. 

Again, disingenuous dismissal of argument, failure to address root problem.  Deflecting the point and attempting to shift the burden of proof.

[Klokwerkaos]

6 minutes ago, More-L said:

Actually the people discussing this with you aren't required to check every post you've made. If anything you should link them in the OP or copy/paste them as a spoiler.

I can understand how you would get annoyed with the recent change to Trinity, and I personally think DE is at fault for leaving this in so long. All the people saying "But she is support not DPS" don't seem to understand her abilities don't only have to complement 1 role. Look at Octavia for god's sake, DPS, support, cc, buffer.

Removing Trinity's only way to actually deal reasonable damage without any form of compensation was the problem here. Just make link not carry damage over to another target and boom, fixed.

Adding them in the OP might have been helpful, but as you know, I'm a bit salty 😉

I will edit the OP a bit, but I'm not going to dig everything up again because it's pretty clear the people who want to argue are relying on fallacious arguments and it doesn't matter too much.  DE won't respond with a good change.

And you're absolutely right.  What's Octavia's role?  Everything?  Sounds right.  Probably shouldn't say that out loud though, otherwise we will need to nerf octavia into the ground and make her useless too. 

[Hoangviet1996]

4 minutes ago, Senketsu_ said:

heres the thing. it dosnt matter if I read them. I know for a fact that DE does read feedback posts, and they probably put a lot of thought into the choice they made. In the end, like it or not, this is their game. And in the terms of service they do state that they can and will make large changes to the game. Plus DE is very good about compensating players when they make big changes. this wasnt big enough of a change. You just simply got screwed with your investment. However making an investment does mean that sometimes it dosnt pan out. 

I don't really agree with you about the compensation part. Within the last 2 major updates, especially the Octavia one they released quite long ago. Everyone receive only 3 formas and 3 day affinity booster, no offense to them but 3 forma aren't enough to make the optimal build for just 1 weapon. When they made changes to bascially almost every weapons in game. Not to mention riven pricing of some favorite weapon at that time.

[Senketsu_]

2 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Excuse you?

Are you not even paying attention?

1000p is about the mininum to spend to make a viable build when you account for primed mods and eidolon lenses, not even considered your weapons loadout.

And if you think players shouldn't experiment and break roles to be creative in finding new ways to play that are more effective, then why bother playing at all?

Lunaro?

Seriously, this is nonsense.  You agree with my points but can't agree that it's wrong because what?  You worship an alter of authority?  That is absolutely rhetorical nonsense.

I can't take you seriously, and further, I did propose changes, again, half a dozen reasonable ones over the last month, and all were ignored.  Why should I repeat them again when they were already ignored?  For your benefit?  I don't think so.

I have loads of viable builds and I literally didnt spend a dime of plat on them. Hell my team and I got to 3.2 mil points on ESO before they reset the leaderboards. I have most of the good prime mods and I got them all off Barro when he arrives in the relay. 

You can experiment all you want. But when something isnt working how the devs intended. They have a right to change it. I personally agree with them changing Trinity.

and you contradict yourself, you say fixing Trinity ruins players ability to experiment, but if everyone is using the same broken trinity build no one will experiment with other frames, because Selfdamage trinity is all you need.  fixing ONE build option doesn ruin players ability to experiment. People *@##$ing about Saryns changes who havent even experimented with the new changes to figure out what new play styles worked with her. 

[Senketsu_]

12 minutes ago, More-L said:

Actually the people discussing this with you aren't required to check every post you've made. If anything you should link them in the OP or copy/paste them as a spoiler.

I can understand how you would get annoyed with the recent change to Trinity, and I personally think DE is at fault for leaving this in so long. All the people saying "But she is support not DPS" don't seem to understand her abilities don't only have to complement 1 role. Look at Octavia for god's sake, DPS, support, cc, buffer.

Removing Trinity's only way to actually deal reasonable damage without any form of compensation was the problem here. Just make link not carry damage over to another target and boom, fixed.

Octavia is a "Bard" a jack of all trades, she is meant to fit into many roles. her role is to be able to be many roles. Just like in Dungeons and Dragons and pretty much all other RPG's 

[Bouldershoulder]

34 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I was going to drop 20k on a kohm riven today

$1333 for a mod? You are mad.

 

[Klokwerkaos]

1 minute ago, Senketsu_ said:

I have loads of viable builds and I literally didnt spend a dime of plat on them. Hell my team and I got to 3.2 mil points on ESO before they reset the leaderboards. I have most of the good prime mods and I got them all off Barro when he arrives in the relay. 

You can experiment all you want. But when something isnt working how the devs intended. They have a right to change it. I personally agree with them changing Trinity.

and you contradict yourself, you say fixing Trinity ruins players ability to experiment, but if everyone is using the same broken trinity build no one will experiment with other frames, because Selfdamage trinity is all you need.  fixing ONE build option doesn ruin players ability to experiment. People *@##$ing about Saryns changes who havent even experimented with the new changes to figure out what new play styles worked with her. 

Invalid and fallacious again.  Disingenuous, again.

Experimenting by virtue, implies you use other frames.  You know who doesn't do that?  People who don't experiment and copy builds on youtube.  Do you know what disincentivising player experimentation creates?  More idiots copying and pasting builds on youtube.  Your logic twisted to fit your narative.

DE does have a right to do whatever they want... no duh, thanks for that, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to be pissed and push back on the forums designed for such things.

Get your argument correct or don't bother.

[Hoangviet1996]

6 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Adding them in the OP might have been helpful, but as you know, I'm a bit salty 😉

I will edit the OP a bit, but I'm not going to dig everything up again because it's pretty clear the people who want to argue are relying on fallacious arguments and it doesn't matter too much.  DE won't respond with a good change.

And you're absolutely right.  What's Octavia's role?  Everything?  Sounds right.  Probably shouldn't say that out loud though, otherwise we will need to nerf octavia into the ground and make her useless too. 

Well tbh i'm surprised when they said each Warframe has its own roles.