Saving in warframe

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

before i start. this is my first form in this community so plz be easy on me.

hi. am AC_CORVO. playing warframe on ps4 since Titania first came out. i really love this game and the way it works, but, there is only one thing that bug me a lot. the saving and how it works.

for and online game i understand that its hard to make a saving mechanic, but its a must. you know that feeling when you play is squad and the host is laggy as hell and get you and your team to get disconnected on that 19 wave in hydron. yeah all the XP you earned is gone. or when you go solo in the plains fishing and you get slapped by "network not responding" Message mid farming and you get disconnected. all that 3 hours fishing is gone. just like that. or when you solo a survival on Uranus for 2 hours farming for polymer and you get a power shortage and suddenly, the ps4 or xbox or PC turned off Automatically, a lot of my friends who live in the 3rd world having this problem, like A LOT.  

see saving is something very important in online games specially a game like Warframe, problem is how DE should hand it?

well, let`s see how different games handle this. For example Destiny and Destiny 2. for a game that is worse than warframe, it handle the save by the Checkpoints. warframe don`t have that. so what are we gonna do about it? you ask

well. the answer is time. you know, warframe is a game that reword according the how much time and offer you spend. you do  something you get reword for in.

how we do apply this to warframe?

well. we can make a checkpoints in survival missions every 5 minutes. 

and checkpoints in defense every 5 waves.

and for the planes they can give us the option for a custom save time like 5,10,15,20 and so on. i`d rather sacrifice some of my loot to save the rest of it

and you can continue your mission by a second option that could be called "resume" or "continue"  next to start mission.

 

well that`s all what i have to say. thank you for reading. 

PS. DE i will sell you my first son just Buff Tigris prime XDDDD

[Chewarette]

No, because if they implement it, you can run endless missions and just Alt-F4 once it's clear you will fail.

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

3 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

No, because if they implement it, you can run endless missions and just Alt-F4 once it's clear you will fail.

you can`t  Alt-F4 in ps4. and you will never revise any reword till you extract. and you can`t change warframe or edit your build before you finish the mission

[Chewarette]

Just now, (PS4)AC_CORVO said:

you can`t  Alt-F4 in ps4. and you will never revise any reword till you extract. and you can`t change warframe or edit your build before you finish the mission

Then I don't see what your solution will accomplish. You're in a solo defense run, let's say Wave 19, and you have a power outage. When you come back, you're obviously in your liset, not in the defense anymore, so your rewards are all lost anyway, you have no way to reclaim them or return in the mission.

Plus, when I said Alt-F4, I meant all the legit ways of cutting the game. Kill your PS4, unplug your internet, burn down your house...

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

1 minute ago, Chewarette said:

Then I don't see what your solution will accomplish. You're in a solo defense run, let's say Wave 19, and you have a power outage. When you come back, you're obviously in your liset, not in the defense anymore, so your rewards are all lost anyway, you have no way to reclaim them or return in the mission.

Plus, when I said Alt-F4, I meant all the legit ways of cutting the game. Kill your PS4, unplug your internet, burn down your house...

your funny as hell you know that.

and no when you log in again to the game it will automatically take take you back to where you left so you don`t  edit or try anything cheep as they say

[Syasob]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)AC_CORVO said:

and no when you log in again to the game it will automatically take take you back to where you left so you don`t  edit or try anything cheep as they say

In Chewarette's example last checkpoint was 4 waves ago. Even if the game won't let you extract with all saved rewards you can replay next 5 waves till you're lucky to complete them. So you actually can complete almost failed mission if you unplug internet cable before the moment of failure. Not to mention that in full squad host can do it to save other's rewards.

[VadiseReikaz]

Checkpoint systems would only be good somewhere like the plains, where you are expected to spend a long time in and there generally is no failure situation.

But missions have fail states, defenses can be destroyed, survivals can kill you, interceptions can become unwieldy. Syasob explained why your take on it opens everyone up to cheesing. And just because you say you wont cheese it, doesnt mean others wont.

It's no fun when you disconnect or you get a power outage, but it really is not DE's problem what your infrastructure is like. And there already is a feature in endless fissures, where if you happen to disconnect, you receive some of the previously open relic rewards.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

23 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

burn down your house...

Hahahahahahaha .  That's one hell of a way to turn off your Console/PC

Edited June 26, 2018 by (XB1)BigLithuanian

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

1 minute ago, Syasob said:

In Chewarette's example last checkpoint was 4 waves ago. Even if the game won't let you extract with all saved rewards you can replay next 5 waves till you're lucky to complete them. So you actually can complete almost failed mission if you unplug internet cable before the moment of failure. Not to mention that in full squad host can do it to save other's rewards.

the save for solo only. in squad if you got disconnected  after wave 5 or after 5 minutes in survival it will give you the option to resume when you log in again but if you got disconnected before wave5 or less than 5 minutes if someone join you will be unable to rejoin.

and you can`t complete almost failed mission if you unplug internet cable before the moment of failure

[Lannen]

16 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

burn down your house...

My preferred method of exiting the game.

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

@(PS4)AC_CORVO just a friendly piece of advice, keep your cool on forums and take criticism with a grain of salt and a open mind because if you don't you will be torn to shreds here. Welcome to the forums (lol)

Edited June 26, 2018 by (XB1)BigLithuanian

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

28 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

burn down your house...

With the combustible lemons? 

[polarity]

• If the host is laggy, you can abort the mission and restart.
• If you're in the plains and you want a checkpoint, it's called the gate.
• If your power is unreliable and you can afford a PC or console, then you can also afford a UPS to deal with your power issues.

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

5 minutes ago, VadiseReikaz said:

Checkpoint systems would only be good somewhere like the plains, where you are expected to spend a long time in and there generally is no failure situation.

But missions have fail states, defenses can be destroyed, survivals can kill you, interceptions can become unwieldy. Syasob explained why your take on it opens everyone up to cheesing. And just because you say you wont cheese it, doesnt mean others wont.

It's no fun when you disconnect or you get a power outage, but it really is not DE's problem what your infrastructure is like. And there already is a feature in endless fissures, where if you happen to disconnect, you receive some of the previously open relic rewards.

as i said no reword shall be calmed before extraction. and yes not DE`s problem. but after the limbo prime update game start to bug a lot. yesterday my game crashed 3 time. enemy stuck behind walls witch will stop the defense mission because you can`t kill him. fissure missions don`t spawn fissure. sometimes casting a warframe ability will take energy but the ability will not work

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)BigLithuanian said:

@(PS4)AC_CORVO just a friendly piece of advice, keep your cool on forums and take criticism with a grain of salt and a open mind because if you don't you will be torn to shreds here. Welcome to the forums (lol)

am calmed. what do you mean?

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)AC_CORVO said:

am calmed. what do you mean?

My bad it just seemed to me like you were snapping at people. The greatest disadvantage to online communication via text is that tone of voice cannot be determined lol.

PS Nonetheless that piece of advice is crucial to any time you are on the forums

Edited June 26, 2018 by (XB1)BigLithuanian

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

1 minute ago, polarity said:

• If the host is laggy, you can abort the mission and restart.
• If you're in the plains and you want a checkpoint, it's called the gate.
• If your power is unreliable and you can afford a PC or console, then you can also afford a UPS to deal with your power issues.

*is the host start to lag in wave 16+ in hydron. you will need to start from the 0

*if you get the "network not responding" even the gate won`t help you

*agree on that. but am not the one who had this problem

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

1 minute ago, (XB1)BigLithuanian said:

My bad it just seemed to me like you were snapping at people. The greatest disadvantage to online communication via text is that tone of voice cannot be determined lol

am not snapping

am discussing

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

The biggest issue I would like to see resolved is the failed host migrations.  There should never be a case where you are rudely returned to your ship due to a failed host migration losing all progress. As a last ditch failsafe it should always make you the host continuing along solo.  I have lost so many rewards from 20+ waves of defense, onslaught, and interception where I easily could have finished alone to the next extraction opportunity its sickening.

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg

[(PSN)AC_CORVO]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

The biggest issue I would like to see resolved is the failed host migrations.  There should never be a case where you are rudely returned to your ship due to a failed host migration losing all progress. As a last ditch failsafe it should always make you the host continuing along solo.  I have lost so many rewards from 20+ waves of defense, onslaught, and interception where I easily could have finished alone to the next extraction opportunity its sickening.

 

what about the failed casting warframe abilities?

[Shalath]

3 hours ago, (PS4)AC_CORVO said:

before i start. this is my first form in this community so plz be easy on me.

hi. am AC_CORVO. playing warframe on ps4 since Titania first came out. i really love this game and the way it works, but, there is only one thing that bug me a lot. the saving and how it works.

for and online game i understand that its hard to make a saving mechanic, but its a must. you know that feeling when you play is squad and the host is laggy as hell and get you and your team to get disconnected on that 19 wave in hydron. yeah all the XP you earned is gone. or when you go solo in the plains fishing and you get slapped by "network not responding" Message mid farming and you get disconnected. all that 3 hours fishing is gone. just like that. or when you solo a survival on Uranus for 2 hours farming for polymer and you get a power shortage and suddenly, the ps4 or xbox or PC turned off Automatically, a lot of my friends who live in the 3rd world having this problem, like A LOT.  

see saving is something very important in online games specially a game like Warframe, problem is how DE should hand it?

well, let`s see how different games handle this. For example Destiny and Destiny 2. for a game that is worse than warframe, it handle the save by the Checkpoints. warframe don`t have that. so what are we gonna do about it? you ask

well. the answer is time. you know, warframe is a game that reword according the how much time and offer you spend. you do  something you get reword for in.

how we do apply this to warframe?

well. we can make a checkpoints in survival missions every 5 minutes. 

and checkpoints in defense every 5 waves.

and for the planes they can give us the option for a custom save time like 5,10,15,20 and so on. i`d rather sacrifice some of my loot to save the rest of it

and you can continue your mission by a second option that could be called "resume" or "continue"  next to start mission.

 

well that`s all what i have to say. thank you for reading. 

PS. DE i will sell you my first son just Buff Tigris prime XDDDD

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

The biggest issue I would like to see resolved is the failed host migrations.  There should never be a case where you are rudely returned to your ship due to a failed host migration losing all progress. As a last ditch failsafe it should always make you the host continuing along solo.  I have lost so many rewards from 20+ waves of defense, onslaught, and interception where I easily could have finished alone to the next extraction opportunity its sickening.

 

The problem with both of these ideas is that they rely on a dedicated serves which we don't have.

As I understand the P2P mechanics in Warframe the host is the one that contains information about the mission status and rewards and periodically (or at mission mission finish) sends this information back to the game servers and/or the other clients.

If the host crashes or disconnects you can't resume from a checkpoint or be dropped into your own solo instance because the game servers don't have information about the mission status or rewards. The only way a resume or switch to solo could happen is if that information has made it back to the game servers. There are some scenarios where enough information is present in the game servers because the game will perform a host migration. Yes, you could be dropped into solo rather than a migration but again unless the mission status and reward information is contained by your client or the game servers that migration will also fail (or not be possible to even try).

But wait! Surely this can be solved by all clients all having the mission status/reward info! Well yes, but only at the cost of increased bandwidth between clients (as much as 4x) which would likely increase lag for all concerned at least on slower connections. Look at some of the backlash from toaster users when the Earth remaster happened or PoE dropped and their toasters couldn't keep up anymore. Lots of rural America and much of Australia have poor connections due to having cables run over so much distance so lots of those will be too laggy to play anymore to say nothing of those who can only play on metered connections and are chewing through their bandwidth 4 times faster now.

I'm not saying the situation can't be improved but any improvement is going to mean somebody takes the hit and more frequent sharing of the missions data is probably the best shot at improving it so those with limited bandwidth or low speeds are going to be those that do.

[FrostedMike]

4 hours ago, (XB1)BigLithuanian said:

With the combustible lemons? 

I understood that reference 😄

For OP, there is a saving mechanic at least for relic rewards and I think for rotation rewards. As for the plains, there is a checkpoint for every fish you catch, mineral you mine and incursion missions, just going out of the gate from time to time is also fine.

For the affinity and the rest of the stuff, you just got to deal with it because it's an extreme situation that depends on the player's ability to play mostly.
Lets take an extreme situation that can happen: power shortage, something I think happened to all of us in the game and we lost progress for that. You do a survival mission solo when you reach 39 minutes in, just a few seconds for rotation C when the power turn down. It's a bummer, yes, but how in the world can the game save this much information in an unexpected moment when there is no power? The computer, from simple logic, unable do anything with no power. Nothing will save your progress from that. Who would have thought...

Lets take a common situation: you lost connection to the internet.
The way the multiplayer connection works (I think after making some myself) is that the "clients" are connected to "host", which is the first player who connected to the session (usualy). The host is both a client and a server. I guess Warframe works the same as there is such thing as "host migration" and I don't see the logic of millions of players connected to a single server with each having his own instance of the game (mainly your Orbiter scene). The only reason the player will connect to DE's servers is to keep the game up to date and to update your Warframe account after missions (need to save this progress somewhere). I think this is how it works because it's the simplest way to handle a game like this.
Now, having your game save your progress every frame is stupid and ilogical, it will take too much from the game and hurt your performance (times 4 for every squad member). Even saving every two minutes or so will hurt your performance. This is why games have "checkpoints" in them so the drop in frames won't matter too much and they usually have a way to hide it. Now add the fact that the data is saved on DE's servers... You know where I get here.
If you lost the connection to the internet, there is nowhere to save the progress you made even if from a magical way you are able to save progress every frame without losing performance. Lets say you magiclay able to save every frame, localy on your computer and the data is sent to the servers only after completing the mission or reaching a checkpoint, than it will work. But this is a design problem which others mentioned before me and I can expend on it if you want.

EDIT:
About Host migration, it's pretty much the same. The host is the server so if you lose the connetion to the host... You have nowhere to pull this data from... I don't know how to explain it more clearly... I can try if I must...

Simply put, even if there wasn't any problem with designing it so players won't exploit this mechanic, it's impossible because of physics.

Edited June 26, 2018 by FrostedMike

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

2 hours ago, Shalath said:

The problem with both of these ideas is that they rely on a dedicated serves which we don't have.

For what I am suggesting (assured migration to yourself in the event of failed host migration) I don't understand why that would require dedicated servers.

There is currently a mechanism in place to migrate to someone else - meaning at least one additional client has world state information besides the host. I'm simply suggesting ALL clients should have that information, and if migration fails to the second host it rolls to the third, and failing that you become host (assuming 4 people and you were not the second or third rollover.)

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

2 hours ago, Shalath said:

The problem with both of these ideas is that they rely on a dedicated serves which we don't have.

For what I am suggesting (assured migration to yourself in the event of failed host migration) I don't understand why that would require dedicated servers.

There is currently a mechanism in place to migrate to someone else - meaning at least one additional client has world state information besides the host. I'm simply suggesting ALL clients should have that information, and if migration fails to the second host it rolls to the third, and failing that you become host (assuming 4 people and you were not the second or third rollover.)

 

1 hour ago, FrostedMike said:

About Host migration, it's pretty much the same. The host is the server so if you lose the connetion to the host... You have nowhere to pull this data from... I don't know how to explain it more clearly... I can try if I must...

Clearly the majority of the time at least one other client has state information since not all host migrations fail. If they extended it so that all clients had information (+/- the last few seconds of activity) they should be able to rollover to any client - including making each of the remaining clients their own host in single-instance sessions.

And host migrations as it stands now occasionally succeed even with unexpected host disconnects as I've been host in a party where WF simply crashed, or my internet went down, and I know the others were able to continue and in fact I was able to reconnect after a restart.

[FrostedMike]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Clearly the majority of the time at least one other client has state information since not all host migrations fail. If they extended it so that all clients had information (+/- the last few seconds of activity) they should be able to rollover to any client - including making each of the remaining clients their own host in single-instance sessions.

And host migrations as it stands now occasionally succeed even with unexpected host disconnects as I've been host in a party where WF simply crashed, or my internet went down, and I know the others were able to continue and in fact I was able to reconnect after a restart.

Yes, not all fail, but those who who fail don't keep their progress, which mean the host is the client who hold the intormation or in other words the server. I think the saving mechanic in there happens because each client have his own instace. I can't confirm because I don't know how it works in Warframe, but I can try. Feel free to skip it if you are not interested in knowing how it works.
 

Spoiler

 

What happens in multiplayer games is that you are not really play with other players on the same map, each client play on his own map with his own objects but with a single server that sits on one of the client's network or a dedicated server that sits on a dedicated netwrok. The server only sync between those instances. Each client sends a "request" to the server such as "I move to XYZ", "I shoot" and those kind of things. The server "confirm" the request and return a response such as "You moved" or "You shot", but he also sends it to the rest of the clients and update the instances they have.

Now the part I'm not sure of: when a host migration happens, the client that sits on the server's computer is lost but not the server because the clients are connected to the server and not to the hosting client (we will call him C0). So, a client (we will call him C1) is able to "pull" the server to himself (or the server choose one of the clients) if C0 lost the connection, making the host migration successful. When C0 reconnect, it's because he have the same user ID as before (same account), but the instace is different (reconnect as C2 because the previous instance was destroied) which cause his loss in progression (instace doesn't match). This is also apply if you are not the host.
The clients are able the reconnect because each have his own instace and inside it his own "server" variable. In the server varaible all the clients are kept, for each client runs the same code that decide who should be the new host and for each client the result is C1, from here the recconection.

 

I think the information is kept with the server because of two reasons:
1. A failed migration causes all clients to lose progression.
2. When the server makes a relocation in a successful migration, there is a loading screen. It makes me to believe that there is a lot of data to trasnfer, mainly the clients progression.

Edited June 26, 2018 by FrostedMike