Cheat Engine, permabans, and my solution to the problem

[CorerMaximus]

TL;DR- Cheat Engine running in the background should not trigger a permaban

Cheat Engine is a memory alteration and game "hacking" software used extensively for speedrunning and value (money, mana, etc.) alteration in single player games. It affects games like Faster Than Light, Civilization V, Arizona Sunshine, etc.- but not so much multiplayer games wherein values for money and XP are stored on a server. That said, having Cheat Engine running in the background triggers an account permaban within Warframe and is a bit too much when I either forgot to turn it off, accidentally launched it, or am using it to cheat in a game that I'm running alongside Warframe.

The above makes it clear that Warframe, atleast to my naive understanding of online games and Cheat Engine, is relatively immune to such "hacks" since everything- your platinum, credits, resources, customization, etc. is stored on a server. I'm not a game developer so I'm not sure how feasible my proposed solution is- but bans should only part-take when injecting Cheat Engine into Warframe instead of detecting it running in the background or when a value is altered, not when the application is simply running in the background.

If nothing else- Digital Extremes has data for every mission going back years- instead of triggering bans based on what apps are running in the background, instead- should trigger bans if your loot strays too far from historic data AND the engine has detected Cheat Engine running in the background. Even for things like mana- it should be possible to share its value across the connected clients for a game session and if a Warframe's energy or weapon's ammo is replenished outside of picking up energy bubbles or ammo cases, then trigger a ban.

The current system results in a permaban in all aspects to Warframe- both the store, ingame account, and forum account. You can appeal to support, but they take about a week or two to get back to you and may not often result in the ban being lifted, if at all. If the ban is lifted, you're given only one more chance- if Cheat Engine is running in the background, even by accident- the next ban will be unrepealable and permanent.

Don't get me wrong- I hate leechers and cheaters as much as the next person- but the current system punishes honest, long-standing players like myself too. I'm a MR25 player whose has invested thousands of dollars in Warframe since the 3 years or so I've been playing and have enough of each resources to never have to farm again, let alone cheat, and while I am really grateful about Digital Extremes restoring my account when they could have just looked the other way, something feels odd or iffy about being on the last straw and spooks me everytime I pull out my card to buy platinum, or even a Prime Access since it will all be gone if I even by mistake launch CE, an application that cannot "hack" Warframe. 

I can only hope that DE addresses this moving forward to instill a bit of confidence in players like me who were flagged incorrectly to continue contributing and playing Warframe without fear of watching their work over years disappear with the wrong click of a button.

[Synpai]

Don't use it?

[Buzkyl]

This is one of those thing where while I understand a permaban is harsh, I can see why DE has it in place. DE cannot detect your intentions with the cheat engine. Just that it and WF are both active and they can only make assumtpions.

Ideally on first offense players should face a cooldown of logging in with a warning as to why it happened and the next offense will be a permaban. At that point any mistakes are up to the player.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Buzkyl

[Voltage]

You should be more careful with what you have running on your computer when you launch the game. I don't think changes need to be made because people are careless with what software is running. Mistakes happen and some have to learn the hard way.

[CorerMaximus]

3 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Don't use it?

That's not really an option- I don't have enough spare time to sit down and invest hundreds of hours in Civ V for instance, and using Cheat Engine is the only way I can see myself through it. If I don't I'd hardly have enough time to play more than a game a month or so, let alone have enough time to tend to social and familial calls. In a strange irony- the reason I use Cheat Engine other than that is to finish off the other games I play relatively quickly... to get back and play more Warframe.

[CorerMaximus]

1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

You should be more careful with what you have running on your computer when you launch the game. I don't think changes need to be made because people are careless with what software is running. Mistakes happen and some have to learn the hard way.

Well, changes need to be made because these permabans affect Digital Extreme's bottom line- it's in their best financial interest to have players who have invested thousands of dollars and who will continue to do so feel confident spending money towards Warframe without the feeling everything they've worked towards over thousands of hours and dollars simply disappear into the void. If my account were permabanned, learning the hard way would be me never visiting the game again on the basis of having a bad experience with their anticheat system incorrectly flagging me (not the case here since DE restored my account, but I'm sure there are many who were lesser fortunate)- and I doubt Digital Extremes would be happy with that in the long run- there are players like me with only a single account they've worked tirelessly into making them what they are today and watching it all go away, while fair play based on their Terms of Service, is a bit too harsh a punishment for what could have been an honest mistake. 

[ShadowStalker]

Im out of the loop did you get false banned? or is this just a "in case it happens" post 

Edited July 2, 2018 by ShadowStalker

[Tsukinoki]

7 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

The above makes it clear that Warframe, atleast to my naive understanding of online games and Cheat Engine, is relatively immune to such "hacks" since everything- your platinum, credits, resources, customization, etc. is stored on a server. I'm not a game developer so I'm not sure how feasible my proposed solution is- but bans should only part-take when injecting Cheat Engine into Warframe instead of detecting it running in the background or when a value is altered, not when the application is simply running in the background.

With how warframe is run, mostly being peer-to-peer rather than server-host, there is still quite a lot that CE and similar programs can still do to WF.
Add onto that the information that someone can gather just by watching memory addresses and its a considerable risk.

Beyond that though while it is possible to detect alterations to memory made by such programs, there are ways to get around that as well, making it rather difficult for the game to tell if you are changing the memory values or not.  So DE wouldn't be able to easily tell, or tell at all, if you've actually changed anything.  All they can tell is "Well, he was running CE at the same time as WF..."

They are playing the safe alternative of "We can't be sure if you're doing something or not...so its better to prevent it just in case" which is completely understandable from their point of view.

[PrivateRiem]

10 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

That's not really an option- I don't have enough spare time to sit down and invest hundreds of hours in Civ V for instance, and using Cheat Engine is the only way I can see myself through it. If I don't I'd hardly have enough time to play more than a game a month or so, let alone have enough time to tend to social and familial calls. In a strange irony- the reason I use Cheat Engine other than that is to finish off the other games I play relatively quickly... to get back and play more Warframe.

That's not DE's problem. If warframe is important enough to you, you'll figure a way to not get yourself banned. Otherwise, I'm sure you'll figure out a reason or two to complain.

[CorerMaximus]

1 minute ago, ShadowStalker said:

Im out of the loop did you get flase banned? or is this just a "in case it happens" post 

I was permabanned for forgetting that Warframe was running in the background when launching Civilization V and Cheat Engine, and while I am really grateful my account was restored (hail Digital Extremes) when they could have turned the other cheek; it's left me feeling really uneasy with the game's anti-cheat system and the fact that I'm on the last straw if it happens again. I believe the system needs to change, moreso in times like now when Steam's summer sale is going on and people are buying new games and may be using Cheat Engine, only to get permabanned and be in a situation like me. I created this topic to air out my own thoughts and get a discussion going on this topic in hopes the way permabans are handled can be addressed moving forward.

[Buzkyl]

3 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

I was permabanned for forgetting that Warframe was running in the background when launching Civilization V and Cheat Engine, and while I am really grateful my account was restored (hail Digital Extremes) when they could have turned the other cheek; it's left me feeling really uneasy with the game's anti-cheat system and the fact that I'm on the last straw if it happens again. I believe the system needs to change, moreso in times like now when Steam's summer sale is going on and people are buying new games and may be using Cheat Engine, only to get permabanned and be in a situation like me. I created this topic to air out my own thoughts and get a discussion going on this topic in hopes the way permabans are handled can be addressed moving forward.

Then don't run WF while the cheat engine is up for future use.That is a pretty simple Solution

[CorerMaximus]

9 minutes ago, PrivateRiem said:

That's not DE's problem. If warframe is important enough to you, you'll figure a way to not get yourself banned. Otherwise, I'm sure you'll figure out a reason or two to complain.

I guess that's fair, but it sets a terrible precedent for shifting the honus for being aware of what's running on the background to players, and that just sounds terribly rude.

To help understand how bad it sounds, lets turn this around using your words- DE's anticheat system is not the players problem. If I as a player am important enough to Digital Extremes that they want me to keep spending money into Warframe and recommending the game to friends who've contributed a substantial amount of money towards Warframe as a whole, they will figure a way to effectively distinguish between players who are actually maliciously trying to ruin the game, and those who've made honest mistakes. Otherwise, I'm sure they'll figure complain about not having enough money when their playerbase as a whole starts lacking confidence in throwing money towards Warframe. _{^{(see? It sounds terrible, doesn't it? 😛 )}} 

Edited July 2, 2018 by CorerMaximus

[PrivateRiem]

3 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

they will figure a way to effectively distinguish between players who are actually maliciously trying to ruin the game, and those who've made honest mistakes. _^😛

Isn't that exactly what they're doing? What percentage of the Warframe userbase do you think actively use Cheat engine in their day-to-day lives?

Edited July 2, 2018 by PrivateRiem

[Nykerios]

2 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

but it sets a terrible precedent for shifting the honus for being aware of what's running on the background to players, and that just sounds terribly rude.

So........ it's rude that you have to pay attention to what you have running on your own PC and not DE? That makes so much sense. /s

[CorerMaximus]

2 minutes ago, PrivateRiem said:

Isn't that exactly what they did? What percentage of the Warframe userbase do you think actively use Cheat engine in their day-to-day lives?

We (both you and me) don't know that information, so neither of us can assume an answer to that question- all that I do know is, basing on my post on the subreddit and my discussions with other players online- their policy and current implementation of anti-cheat has actually resulted in a few whales being banned from playing the game altogether. 

When I say distinguish between a player who is maliciously ruining the game and those who are making honest mistakes- I mean in the context of apps running in the background- apps like Cheat Engine.

[VadiseReikaz]

Why is this conversation taking place? CE is not allowed.. Turn it off before you start the game and then turn it on whenever you want to cheat in other games. Why does DE have to change just because you cant remember to do this? It's easy.

DE doesnt need to distinguish anything, if CE is forbidden that's all it takes. Why waste time and resources trying to find out if someone is DOING anything with CE? there are more important things to spend time and effort on. Like trying to make Venus a non broken mess on launch, for example.

You spent money? that doesnt give you any considerations when it comes to the rules.

Edited July 2, 2018 by VadiseReikaz

[CorerMaximus]

1 minute ago, --Q--Stryker said:

So........ it's rude that you have to pay attention to what you have running on your own PC and not DE? That makes so much sense. /s

I meant the way his post was phrased that it's my problem and not Digital Extremes; and if people are banned for running Cheat Engine, his post implies its solely the players problem and if banned for doing so, his phrasing of complaints raised in that regard was a bit deprecating. 

[Nykerios]

2 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

I meant the way his post was phrased that it's my problem and not Digital Extremes

It is. You made the mistake of running Cheat Engine with Warframe active and got autobanned. Even if they reversed the ban as it was unneeded, it's still on you to not put yourself in a position to make it seem like you're cheating even if you're not.

[CorerMaximus]

5 minutes ago, VadiseReikaz said:

Why is this conversation taking place? CE is not allowed.. Turn it off before you start the game and then turn it on whenever you want to cheat in other games. Why does DE have to change just because you cant remember to do this? It's easy.

DE doesnt need to distinguish anything, if CE is forbidden that's all it takes. Why waste time and resources trying to find out if someone is DOING anything with CE? there are more important things to spend time and effort on. Like trying to make Venus a non broken mess on launch, for example.

 You spent money? that doesnt give you any considerations when it comes to the rules.

The conversation is taking place because I feel it is a topic we as a community need to discuss and is something that was probably long overdue. There are many players who have been banned for running Cheat Engine, and unlike me, haven't had the privilege to get their accounts back and by that- haven't had the opportunity to discuss. Warframe and Digital Extreme's are some of the most player-progressive entities in the gaming space, but their policy in regards to Cheat Engine is a bit antiquated according to me, which is why I threw this topic up. If you think there's no point to this discussion, you're free to ignore it 🙂 

As for why fixing it and why I think me spending money matters in regards to the rules- I'm going to let you figure out how the two of them are related, and why DE needs to fix it 😉 

[CorerMaximus]

12 minutes ago, --Q--Stryker said:

It is. You made the mistake of running Cheat Engine with Warframe active and got autobanned. Even if they reversed the ban as it was unneeded, it's still on you to not put yourself in a position to make it seem like you're cheating even if you're not.

So to clarify- whether or not players are confident in Warframe's anticheat system and spend money towards Prime Access and platinum to give Digital Extremes the money to stay afloat is my, not Digital Extreme's problem? 

The conversation goes much deeper than whose fault it is- and extends towards player confidence in the platform. Rather than pointing fingers as to whose fault it is- lets look at the impact the anticheat implementation has in its current form- it erodes player trust in Warframe, and a consequence of that, regardless of whose fault it is- is players being less willing or likely to invest money into the game. I love Digital Extremes and Warframe, but this past experience, while being a silver lining in that I now have a second chance to play, left pretty much everyone I spoke with in real life horrified when bought up. I don't believe this should be the case, and want to discuss the policy, not whose fault the bans are, to hopefully spark something that changes this moving forward.

Edited July 2, 2018 by CorerMaximus

[VadiseReikaz]

Well, I am sorry to break it to you, but that is really not their problem. It is your sole responsibility to not run forbidden software in your PC. Call it antiquated, call it unfriendly. But if you think you can get away with it just because you spent some money in the game, by all means dont let me stop you.

[CorerMaximus]

3 minutes ago, VadiseReikaz said:

Well, I am sorry to break it to you, but that is really not their problem. It is your sole responsibility to not run forbidden software in your PC. Call it antiquated, call it unfriendly. But if you think you can get away with it just because you spent some money in the game, by all means dont let me stop you.

Can we move forward from whose fault it is to discussing how we can fix it? Sure, to end this argument that seems to be endlessly looping in this thread, let's say I am at fault here and I should be more careful in the future- but can we move ahead and discuss ways in which Digital Extremes can also change the way things are handled so that other players, who may not know Cheat Engine is a permaban worthy tool or who do so but launch it anyways by mistake, don't lose their accounts please? 

[VadiseReikaz]

Q Voltage gave a solution to that at the start of the thread. A warning popup on first offense, then the permaban on the next one. That way the whole "But I didnt know it wasnt allowed" thing cant be brought up and they have to deal with it.

[Nykerios]

5 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

So to clarify- whether or not players are confident in Warframe's anticheat system and spend money towards Prime Access and platinum to give Digital Extremes the money to stay afloat is my, not Digital Extreme's problem?

That's exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if you've spent $2 or $200, it's YOUR responsibility to not open a known cheat software while playing games with anti-cheats.

2 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

Can we move forward from whose fault it is to discussing how we can fix it?

We cannot because there isn't much to fix outside of a warning pop-up like others have stated.

[peterc3]

43 minutes ago, CorerMaximus said:

The conversation is taking place because I feel it is a topic we as a community need to discuss and is something that was probably long overdue. There are many players who have been banned for running Cheat Engine, and unlike me, haven't had the privilege to get their accounts back and by that- haven't had the opportunity to discuss. Warframe and Digital Extreme's are some of the most player-progressive entities in the gaming space, but their policy in regards to Cheat Engine is a bit antiquated according to me, which is why I threw this topic up. If you think there's no point to this discussion, you're free to ignore it 🙂 

As for why fixing it and why I think me spending money matters in regards to the rules- I'm going to let you figure out how the two of them are related, and why DE needs to fix it  

You spending money on the game is irrelevant in the face of the integrity of their game/platform.

30 minutes ago, --Q--Stryker said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if you've spent $2 or $200, it's YOUR responsibility to not open a known cheat software while playing games with anti-cheats.

We cannot because there isn't much to fix outside of a warning pop-up like others have stated.

Doesn't the launcher throw a fit if CE is running?