CC is dead because of damage dealers being too potent for current endgame content and no reworks (while actually keeping true to the role) are gonna fix that

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Hello.

Enemies are bad. CC-ed enemies are better. Dead enemies are best enemies.

It's really as simple as that. Vauban had his place in raids because killing didn't help the objective (solving puzzles did during which enemies were more of a nuisance than anything), Nyx used to be META in long void runs when enemies got to levels you couldn't kill them in seconds anymore (thanks to Absorb mostly but Chaos was also appreciated) but that was long, looong ago. Nowadays there is no incentive anymore to even go that far into endless missions and powercreeping mods and skills make use of weapons hardly even neccessary anymore for lots of mission types.

So think about it: Why would one ever bring a CC type frame to a mission that only buys you time to kill enemies you don't even need except for personal preference? Map wiping will always be more efficient and efficiency is what most people will always be going for as recent stats presented during devstream demonstrated once again (Volt and Saryn being at the top etc., cearly risen there rather recently with new Spores and Discharge).

So matter what you're gonna do to Nyx: There's no way getting her up there, at least if you wanna preserve her role. Same goes for pretty much every CC frame in the game. They simply lack a niche.

I can't provide a be-all end-all solution here but still wanted to put this here for your consideration and spark a discussion during which maybe some ideas might emerge. Either map wiping damage skills are too powerful (while also being spammable 24/7) or enemy levels still far too low in what's official endgame (ESO, Sorties).

Thanks for reading.

[Ventura_Highway]

They also showed Elite alerts in that devstream. If you can't revive, chances are the safety of CC will be more appreciated, even with ez mode operator revives.

Oh, also if you ask me, I thought that Everything Taking Three Different Forms of CC in long range survival was really, really boring and I'm not sad to see it go, but I can understand also not liking Warframe just being a slaughter.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Ventura_Highway

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Ventura_Highway:

They also showed Elite alerts in that devstream. If you can't revive, chances are the safety of CC will be more appreciated, even with ez mode operator revives.

Yeah it's definitely a good idea. Will also probably make people use durability mods more which will naturally take away from their skill effectiveness.

[-Temp0-]

Good.

I didn't start to play this game to afk to watch a bombard picking his nose in front if me while I stand there looking pretty and doing nothin' while that bombard also does nothing.

[Rawbeard]

CC enemies are so much better, because not playing the game until the mission is over is so god damn exciting! at least with some damage dealer killing them I can keep myself busy picking up resources I don't need

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Ventura_Highway:

Oh, also if you ask me, I thought that Everything Taking Three Different Forms of CC in long range survival was really, really boring and I'm not sad to see it go, but I can understand also not liking Warframe just being a slaughter.

Well i guess i can get behind that but what's the consequence? Should CC be omitted from the game entirely and Nyx / Vaubs etc. reworked accordingly?

Edited August 18, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Dojutrek]

Personally, I don't think CC should be thrown to the winds as a primary concept for frames and powers, instead they should fold utility aspects into those powers. For example: "Adding a Healing effect for Nyx for every enemy affected by Chaos", or "provide Energy Regeneration based on the number of enemies trapped by Bastille while in Bastille's Radius". The Core of those abilities work well as CC powers, but they need something more to be effective overall.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Dojutrek:

Personally, I don't think CC should be thrown to the winds as a primary concept for frames and powers, instead they should fold utility aspects into those powers. For example: "Adding a Healing effect for Nyx for every enemy affected by Chaos", or "provide Energy Regeneration based on the number of enemies trapped by Bastille while in Bastille's Radius". The Core of those abilities work well as CC powers, but they need something more to be effective overall.

Well, thing is even healing and support is rather unpopular atm because of the binary nature of endgame: It's perma-nuke the map or be one shot from some random direction in seconds... The only support really needed is getting into void mode and rezing mates while being completely invincible should the latter case occur.

[tbeest]

CC was very important during raids. Raids are gone and the current end-game(ish) is Sanctuary Onslaught and Eidolons. ESO requires kills as fast as possible, CC doesn't affect the Sentients in a hunt.

In raids CC was indirectly incentivised, no kills meant no new spawns meant no uncontrolled enemies. There's no real reason to go endless in endless anymore either, removing a lot of different scenarios. There's no draw to CC, there's no real need for CC in what we have now. 

Besides, even if all frames stopped doing damage of a sudden// there is still Maiming Strike and it doesn't really matter.

CC no longer matters.

Edited August 18, 2018 by tbeest

[Dojutrek]

3 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, thing is even healing and support is rather unpopular atm because of the binary nature of endgame: It's perma-nuke the map or be one shot from some random direction in seconds... The only support really needed is getting into void mode and rezing mates while being completely invincible should the latter case occur.

Now that's where I'd argue, Support is always needed in different doses. I main Support Frames, because I like them and like providing a tangible benefit to the team. I have never been told as a Support to change frames or go pure damage. So while Support is "Unpopular", by your words, it's never unwanted. 

The problem with the "Nuke" aspect of the game is Content, what constitutes difficult content? How hard does it need to be to warrant CC and Support frames? That's the questions I'd be asking. Not whether these frames are needed, but viable in the current content.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Dojutrek
Minor Tweak

[Katinka]

As someone who plays mostly solo, sometimes two-player, rarely more than that, I often feel like I'm playing a very different game from what people describe here.  Nyx is still a go to for me in Sortie Mobile Defense where Chaos will keep the enemies occupied while killing will just cause more to spawn.  When you have 4 killy frames then sure everything dies quickly but it's not quite the same story when you are by yourself and a slip up means using a revive rather than the slight inconvenience of a team-mate switching to operator to pick you up.

[Dojutrek]

4 minutes ago, tbeest said:

CC was very important during raids. Raids are gone and the current end-game(ish) is Sanctuary Onslaught and Eidolons. ESO requires kills as fast as possible, CC doesn't affect the Sentients in a hunt.

Besides, even if all frames stopped doing damage there is still Maiming Strike and it doesn't really matter.

CC no longer matters.

That's because the content has shifted to a Damage-only mentality, not because CC doesn't matter. That's a Problem on the Development end.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Katinka:

As someone who plays mostly solo

I see how that makes for quite a different scenario, but a rather rare one i think so i didn't really consider it in OP.

[Dojutrek]

Also, here's another point that should be made, what about the abundance of Healing/Energy/Ammo Consumables to keep the Energy Flowing for Damage? What about the Zenurik School? I think that should be a topic of discussion as well worth considering since, as you put it, that Damage is king. If anything, those items should be harder or more difficult to obtain, making them really costly would put reliance on Support and CC frames again in party make-ups to provide the covering fire needed to regenerate energy.

I think that the Team aspect of Warframe has been lost, since every frame can do almost everything. The whole weakness in Frames was Energy before, now it's a moot point with Consumables and Zenurik School.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Dojutrek

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Dojutrek:

Also, here's another point that should be made, what about the abundance of Healing/Energy/Ammo Consumables to keep the Energy Flowing for Damage? What about the Zenurik School? I think that should be a topic of discussion as well worth considering since, as you put it, that Damage is king. If anything, those items should be harder or more difficult to obtain, making them really costly would put reliance on Support and CC frames again in party make-ups to provide the covering fire needed to regenerate energy.

I think that the Team aspect of Warframe has been lost, since every frame can do almost everything. The whole weakness in Frames was Energy before, now it's a moot point with Consumables and Zenurik School.

Agreed, been there, done that:

🙂

[tbeest]

6 minutes ago, Dojutrek said:

That's because the content has shifted to a Damage-only mentality, not because CC doesn't matter. That's a Problem on the Development end.

Perhaps my wording was inadequate: For what we have now CC doesn't really matter. Unless we get something akin to raids that encourages keeping enemies alive it won't really matter again. Content rarely goes above level 100 because endless isn't encouraged anymore and level 100 is relatively easy to kill. In some missions it's better not to CC because that would slow enemies coming towards you down. So it can even be a negative!

[Dojutrek]

16 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Agreed, been there, done that:

🙂

Here's the thing, let's break this down.

We don't need the Healing or Energy Consumables with the focus Schools in place. So let's just get rid of them, say for the Ammo Consumable because Ammo is always useful (Agree?). Also, since the Focus schools are behind the Second Dream Questline, we should keep them around for late game stuff. That's one problem, but I'll get to the focus schools in a moment.

Next, EV Trin is an issue, but we still have Limbo, Octavia, and a few others that restore Energy and numerous others that heal. So, I argue that why not give it to Nyx and Vauban? Give them CC/Support/Utility Abilities to reinvigorate the reliance on Teamwork and CC. That adds to their kit and provides a real benefit to bring them along. Yes, there will always be a "META" frame, but by leveling the playing field in other areas we can provide a choice to those not wanting a "META" Frame. That's two.

Finally, the Focus schools. How to fix them...well first and foremost reducing the gains from Zenurik is always an option. However, I always think there's a better option, maybe create content where the operator isn't able to be used or create content intended for the operator's interference. Maybe a new enemy type to disrupt operators, like Comba or Nullifier units. What about a Permanent/Temporary Debuff to energy efficiency on the frame for every time an operator is used during a mission, but only stays for that mission (I'm not that evil)? There are many options to handle the issue of Focus schools, but the main problem is the ease at which Energy is obtained from them. 
 

There are always ways around the issue at hand.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Dojutrek

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

*inspiration strikes*

Time to post another Vauban rework idea!!

[Dojutrek]

18 minutes ago, tbeest said:

Perhaps my wording was inadequate: For what we have now CC doesn't really matter. Unless we get something akin to raids that encourages keeping enemies alive it won't really matter again. Content rarely goes above level 100 because endless isn't encouraged anymore and level 100 is relatively easy to kill. In some missions it's better not to CC because that would slow enemies coming towards you down. So it can even be a negative!

Again, Content is an issue. However, being completely CC-centric could easily be considered another issue. As I stated previously, the problem isn't always cut and dry. Maybe instead of thinking of this as a Content only issue, maybe think of it as a Utility issue. CC frames don't have much Utility to a team, why not add that to their kit? Make them more sought after by those wanting to not play the Meta Flavor of the Month. CC could provide insurance that you and your team are going to be safe, but Utility would bring the whole dynamic to the team providing Energy/Health/Ammo or other forms of benefits that the team can use.

[tbeest]

3 minutes ago, Dojutrek said:

Again, Content is an issue. However, being completely CC-centric could easily be considered another issue. As I stated previously, the problem isn't always cut and dry. Maybe instead of thinking of this as a Content only issue, maybe think of it as a Utility issue. CC frames don't have much Utility to a team, why not add that to their kit? Make them more sought after by those wanting to not play the Meta Flavor of the Month. CC could provide insurance that you and your team are going to be safe, but Utility would bring the whole dynamic to the team providing Energy/Health/Ammo or other forms of benefits that the team can use.

Inaros: Healing and CC
Nekros: Can do sorta CC and can sorta drop more ammo. 
Energy... Don't have one for that.

Okay, not great examples.

That said, if you want energy and healing get a Trinity! Two birds with one stone. A few Ammo restores should fix most ammunition problems. In fact, Trinity will bring so much energy you can spam whatever so there's no real energy concern anymore. As you also brought up. But there is no real need for utility CC when we have frames that can do just utility far better. Besides, slowing down enemies can even be a drawback. So yes, maybe bringing in a bit of utility would help a little but I don't think it will solve anything. 

[Soketsu]

Yeah against ennemy under the level 60-80 of course an loadout with a reactor/catalysor + forma are gonna to kill anything in 1/2 sec. And before we didn't have exilus, rivens or operator boost XD

 

So how about just give content lvl 120+ for example ? I'm not that sure you will be able to just "nuke" everything like this.

[tbeest]

3 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

Yeah against ennemy under the level 60-80 of course an loadout with a reactor/catalysor + forma are gonna to kill anything in 1/2 sec. And before we didn't have exilus, rivens or operator boost XD

 

So how about just give content lvl 120+ for example ? I'm not that sure you will be able to just "nuke" everything like this.

Where does this content you speak of exist? Not in anything the majority cares about. As for ESO Maiming Strike tends to be a pretty good "nuke". Slap some buffs and debuffs around the reasonably tight area that are the ESO tiles and stuff dies pretty quickly.
Besides the fact that slowing down ESO with CC literally makes you fail.

[Dojutrek]

21 minutes ago, tbeest said:

Inaros: Healing and CC
Nekros: Can do sorta CC and can sorta drop more ammo. 
Energy... Don't have one for that.

Okay, not great examples.

That said, if you want energy and healing get a Trinity! Two birds with one stone. A few Ammo restores should fix most ammunition problems. In fact, Trinity will bring so much energy you can spam whatever so there's no real energy concern anymore. As you also brought up. But there is no real need for utility CC when we have frames that can do just utility far better. Besides, slowing down enemies can even be a drawback. So yes, maybe bringing in a bit of utility would help a little but I don't think it will solve anything. 

That's the thing, Trinity is the "Meta". However, there needs to be options outside of Trinity. The problem you're bringing up is that Trinity is the only one, maybe we need a frame to become equal or close to Trinity in that regard. For Example, Oberon does what Trinity does, but over the course of time and shuts down pesky status effects. He has Utility to a team, outside of Trinity's pure healing style. Vauban can EASILY have a similar style to Trinity with Deploy-ables or changes to his kit, the problem is DE and their closed doors approach to reworking.

You're right, it won't solve the issue, but having options will mitigate the choice down to "What do I like to use?" rather than "What I'm Required to use?".

EDIT:

And just to be fair and clear, I don't think Trinity needs a Nerf. Things need to be brought up to her level.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Dojutrek
Edited for Clarity

[Dojutrek]

23 minutes ago, tbeest said:

Where does this content you speak of exist? Not in anything the majority cares about. As for ESO Maiming Strike tends to be a pretty good "nuke". Slap some buffs and debuffs around the reasonably tight area that are the ESO tiles and stuff dies pretty quickly.
Besides the fact that slowing down ESO with CC literally makes you fail.

That's because ESO is a piece of Damage-Centric content, but that's because it's made for it. CC, on the other hand, has that content in the form of Defense/Mobile Defense/Survival or any endless mode. However, again, the problem is Damage, but it could also be the abundance of Energy. Energy, and the abundance there of, can easily bring the idea of a CC centric mode down due to the easy clearing by Damage. So what do we do? Make it so Damage is more costly? or do we hit the easy access to Energy?

Edited August 18, 2018 by Dojutrek

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Dojutrek:

And just to be fair and clear, I don't think Trinity needs a Nerf. Things need to be brought up to her level.

But insta healing the whole team while also reducing damage and equally instant energy regeneration... where to even go from there?