[Enemies] Sapping Ospreys Are Bullsh*t Enemies. Here's Why And What Can Be Done About It.

[Chroia]

Disclaimer: My opinion. Me speaking for me.

Sapping Ospreys:

- Suffers from scaling issues: There's a very thin line where they're at a level where their damage-per-pulse is actually threatening, while not being a one-shot AoE.

- Orb can't be preempted. It always releases at least the first pulse. (Unlike Mine Ospreys, btw.)

- There's no limit on active orbs. The only limit is their lifespan and the osprey's RoF.

Yes, you can headfake an orb launch. But that's rarely the only thing you need to be doing at once.

- You can destroy active orbs. This is good in a void.

But orbs can land in all sorts of bizarre places, aren't always in LoS even when they are, occasionally have wonky hitboxes (not always, so not sure what it stems from) and land anywhere in an area around you (see: headfake).

And they're never the only thing you have to worry about.

Maybe I just need to git gud, but it takes me ~60% of the Osprey's firing cycle to find, zoom in on and verify that I've killed an orb that's near enough to threaten me.

If I've got nothing else to deal with, this gives me a window to also DPS the osprey.

If I've got anything dangerous else going on, attrition (modified by enemy level) starts.

- X-ray radial AoE with not-always-sufficient warning.

Be in ADS, on any facing in a cone of ~90-120 degrees (depending on the weapon's zoom) away from the orb, you're certainly going to eat one pulse, probably 2 while you figure out what's going on, during which time it'll have launched another orb.

Oh, and that thing you were ADSing at? Still there. Hope you like juggling.

- Not (apparently) classed as a heavy unit, as I commonly see 2-3 or more at a time (and generally stacked with a couple of shield drones and 4-6 Mine ospreys), while doing the Pluto Spy mission.

- Has the occasional hitbox issues that all Ospreys have.

tl;dr - a non-unique, area denial enemy that can, from mid range, create a carpet of unavoidable damage ranging from negligible to nearly oneshot (in non-endless high star chart missions), which is both difficult to mitigate and to neutralize.

Notable weaknesses: AoE removes the orbs, high damage can kill the ospreys before they get into threat range - or, barring that, before they can get off enough orbs to be unavoidable.

How is this not incentivizing players to overgear or spam AoEs?

(Or, alternatively, punishing players for not modding for damage/perma CC/invis.)

All that said:

When they're not overwhelming (and assuming they're in your 'level'-range, but then- everything suffers from that), the area denial they bring does add some tactical considerations to a fight.

The problem is, the divide between 'manageable' and 'omfgHALP' is too narrow.

Possible solutions: (assuming you agree that they're a problem)

* Lower their refire rate.

More time to handle/avoid deployed orbs and/or deal with nearby enemies/the Osprey.

* Limit them to 2-3 active orbs per osprey.

Even if you can't kill the orb/osprey, you can avoid the AoEs, thus limiting them to, you know, area denial rather than being effectively an AoE DoT.

- Alternatively, make new orbs despawn older ones. Still area denial, still anti-camping, but also not flooding corridors with DoT AoEs.

* Hard cap their concurrent spawn quantity.

A different avenue of attack on the same problem.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chroia

[(PSN)shmittem]

if your "speaking for me", why post?

 

its like you expected people to hate on your hate

[Shreiko]

I've always thought that enemy type overpowered and altogether far too deadly. I think the size of the pulse emitter should be increased to make it easier to destroy bombs. With the radius of the pulse as is I think the amount they can release shouldn't be higher than 2 at a time. damage per pulse should also be reduced and DE should seriously just go back to the drawing board and reevaluate enemy units in general and the roles they want each enemy to fufill in gameplay.

[ViralN9]

One major issue is the fact that they do Radiation damage, which is increased by our alloy armor. Detron crewman face a similar issue of borderline overpowered-ness because of that damage type.

Edited October 26, 2015 by ViralN9

[Chroia]

if your "speaking for me", why post?

Because feedback.

If you say nothing, then clearly everything's fine.

"The squeaky wheel..." etc.

its like you expected people to hate on your hate

Pretty much.

I don't know who else feels this way, and saying that upfront (hopefully) lets the thread skip the whole 'You don't know what you're talking about, they're fine'.

[LilLemay]

Have you ever been to Cerberus, Pluto? It transcends omfgHalp within a matter of two waves, not to mention the damn mine ospreys. 

[Mastikator2]

Huh...

 

I thought you were gonna say they are useless because of how weak they are. All I've ever seen them do is take up space (yes even in high levels).

[RealPandemonium]

They just need to make the orbs easier to destroy.  Sometimes the damage is punishing but that's the whole point of the enemy.  It can be frustrating to die to their AOEs but it's ultimately your fault when that happens, just like with other special enemies.  In a game where you can zoom to relative safety at any time, Sapping Osprey AOEs are a good way to punish camping and not taking a more active role in combat.  Remember that they were introduced alongside Nullifiers as a response to camping and AFK farming.  

 

One major issue is the fact that they do Radiation damage, which is increased by our alloy armor. Detron crewman face a similar issue of borderline overpowered-ness because of that damage type.

It also does 25% less damage to our shields.  There's only gonna be a huge difference when health tanking with a high-armor warframe.  

Edited October 27, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Rivy]

I don't get why they are guaranteed to fire once without giving us the choice of destroying them first. It's uncounterable area denial. Except for killing the sapper so that the mines deal no damage, but that totally feels like an oversight/bug !

[Chroia]

Have you ever been to Cerberus, Pluto?

I haven't done Corpus Interception since the day after Nulls and Scorching Ospreys were introduced.

Because they were introduced.

Interception's bad enough without having to put up with extra bullcrap on top.

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I thought you were gonna say they are useless because of how weak they are.

I take it you don't play with less than your best mods on.

Alternatively, I assume this means you didn't run into insta-TPKs during False Profit?

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It can be frustrating to die to their AOEs but it's ultimately your fault when that happens, just like with other special enemies. In a game where you can zoom to relative safety at any time, Sapping Osprey AOEs are a good way to punish camping and not taking a more active role in combat.

You're assuming equal-or-greater player power to enemy level.

Their threat level is directly related to your TTK on them.

Also, 'Zoom to safety' assumes you have a clear area to 'zoom' to. See TTK, above - If you're having enough trouble removing an Osprey that you need to retreat, you're unlikely to have a safe area to retreat to - unless playing an Exterminate.

[RealPandemonium]

You're assuming equal-or-greater player power to enemy level.

Their threat level is directly related to your TTK on them.

Also, 'Zoom to safety' assumes you have a clear area to 'zoom' to. See TTK, above - If you're having enough trouble removing an Osprey that you need to retreat, you're unlikely to have a safe area to retreat to - unless playing an Exterminate.

If you underequip yourself going into a mission then you just won't have the firepower to work freely.  It's a numbers-based game and sometimes math rears its ugly head but, thankfully, you can complete many mission types without having to kill every enemy.  That said, Sapping Ospreys only really start to matter, at all, when you can't just neutralize them trivially.  If you're having trouble killing the ospreys then you're probably just not geared enough and the whole mission is going to be challenging to complete.  On the other hand, the only time you have to kill enemies (outside of endless missions) is during exterminated missions, which are the ones that give you somewhere to retreat to (not that Def/Survival don't, but i'm being charitable here.)

 

In regard to the first reply in your post, maybe you should run Cerberus a bunch so that you can develop coping strategies instead of insisting on changing something that players are coping with just fine, even without cheese tactics?

[Darthmufin]

i just find it illogical and cheap that you can't destroy orbs that are 'charging up' and ready to drop on the ground, they should be able to be damaged no matter what. enough with this cheesy 'this item has a period of time where it somehow can't be damaged' stuff, getting tired of it. 

[DrBorris]

My dream is to talke the nullification out of nullifiers and add it to the sapping osprey (and remove the damage).

[BansheePrime]

I see nothing wrong with them, if you have so much of a problem that you want them changed you're doing it wrong.... also...

 

Huh...

 

I thought you were gonna say they are useless because of how weak they are. All I've ever seen them do is take up space (yes even in high levels).

 

This.

Edited October 27, 2015 by maj.death

[Chroia]

If you underequip yourself going into a mission then you just won't have the firepower to work freely.

Let me rephrase that:

And what about people who don't have mods as well upgraded as yours?

Enemy power outscales player power starting from level ~7 or so. 15 is pretty much your limit, damage-wise, before you get a non-broken base damage mod to rank 4-5 and/or at least +90% elemental damage (ignoring Damage 2.0 modifiers).

Players only start catching up ~30 hours in, in my experience, if they know what they need to be doing.

In regard to the first reply in your post, maybe you should run Cerberus a bunch so that you can develop coping strategies instead of insisting on changing something that players are coping with just fine, even without cheese tactics?

See my above.

I have the mods to deal with them just fine, at least until runaway scaling settles in.

Not everyone does.

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I see nothing wrong with them, if you have so much of a problem that you want them changed you're doing it wrong....

That's your perspective. Which is fair.

Could you, perhaps, teach me how to do it right then?

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chroia

[SnakeWildlife]

Press SHIFT to do a rollover, aaaand now that enemy has absolutely no capability whatsoever.

 

How people could form a complaint on this enemy utterly baffles me.

 

Too many posts of people claiming how hard this game is....what game are you playing? Theres a tonne of us begging for more challenging content, not LESS challenging content. Its already a breeze.

Edited October 27, 2015 by SnakeWildlife

[Rivy]

Too many posts of people claiming how hard this game is....what game are you playing? 

Nah, most people complain about unfair or counterintuitive mechanics or enemy design.

[RealPandemonium]

Let me rephrase that:

And what about people who don't have mods as well upgraded as yours?

Enemy power outscales player power starting from level ~7 or so. 15 is pretty much your limit, damage-wise, before you get a non-broken base damage mod to rank 4-5 and/or at least +90% elemental damage (ignoring Damage 2.0 modifiers).

Players only start catching up ~30 hours in, in my experience, if they know what they need to be doing.

See my above.

I have the mods to deal with them just fine, at least until runaway scaling settles in.

Not everyone does.

Obtaining and ranking up mods is an integral part of this game.  No one expects anyone to be able to go into any mission of any level range and be able to function completely fine without mods.  You only need to do a quick scan of the Mods 2.0 page on the wiki in order to get started on finding important mods.  Things like Pressure Point and Cryo Rounds also drop like rain in the early levels, so it's not like you have nothing at the start, either.  

Edited October 27, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Chroia]

What Rivy said.

Press SHIFT to do a rollover, aaaand now that enemy has absolutely no capability whatsoever.

Sure, as long as there are only Sapping Ospreys around, there's where to roll to, and you don't need to actually kill them - or anyone else in the area.

Too many posts of people claiming how hard this game is....what game are you playing? Theres a tonne of us begging for more challenging content, not LESS challenging content. Its already a breeze.

For the sake of clarity, let's make a distinction:

Something that is hard is something that requires brute force, be it power or endurance, to accomplish.

For example, killing a level 500 Lancer is harder than killing a level 5 Lancer.

tl;dr - stat disparity between the player and the enemy/ies.

Something that is challenging is something that requires effort or skill to accomplish.

For example, lasting those 5 extra minutes / 1 extra Excavator / etc. past the point of your damage falling off.

Or flawlessly completing 'hard' Spy vaults.

Or racking up a dozen headshot kills in Annihilation.

All these things are mostly independent of the player (or even the enemy) stats.

With that distinction made:

I'd love more difficult content.

Hard content is just more of the same with bigger numbers / a larger enemy<->player disparity.

Sapping Ospreys can be difficult, in the right circumstances, but imo are usually just hard.

My suggestions are me trying to move them back from 'hard' into 'difficult'.

-----

Which reminds me: added a 4th option to the OP.

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Obtaining and ranking up mods is an integral part of this game. No one expects anyone to be able to go into any mission of any level range and be able to function completely fine without mods. You only need to do a quick scan of the Mods 2.0 page on the wiki in order to get started on finding important mods. Things like Pressure Point and Cryo Rounds also drop like rain in the early levels, so it's not like you have nothing at the start, either.

Agreed and agreed.

True, but is A) outside the game, B) Not intuitive and C) places the burden entirely on the player.

True. (Which is one of the reasons that it's often newbies you see in melee-mode, at least in my experience.) Still scales off your base damage, though(, as per my 'rank 4-5 base damage mod/90%+ elemental, above).

Edited October 27, 2015 by Chroia

[DSpite]

I don't mind the enemy type, don't mind what they do, I really dislike the implementation.

 

Massive pools of glowing light, pulsing away, and you can get multiple stacks of it.

 

My retinas find it really hard to take. I have no idea what would be "better", but right now if I suddenly run into a ton of those things I shut my eyes and run away screaming. It feels like a sensory assault more then in in-game enemy using an area denial attack.

 

Agree on the fact you can't shoot the dropping mines. I keep automatically trying to do so because it's a reflex, then I'm staring into the first pulse.

[ArbitUHM]

Everyone knows that if you kill the Osprey then their little pulse mine thingies don't do any damage, right? The mines will still emit pulses but don't inflict any damage. I mention this because people are talking about shooting the mines which is a waste of time. Shoot the Osprey instead.

 

That said, you should be able to kill the mines before they activate (even shoot them out of the air) and it would be a lot clearer if the mines stopped pulsing after the Osprey that spawned them is destroyed (assuming that's intended functionality).

[Chroia]

Everyone knows that if you kill the Osprey then their little pulse mine thingies don't do any damage, right?

I didn't until I read it here, actually.

(Also, what if there's more than 1 Sapping Osprey?)

[AkikoShikata]

Actually, I agree with the OP, not just because of the insane scaling, but the stacking. 2-3 of those orbs dropped in the same place, and one roll or bullet jump in the wrong direction and you'll be incapped if you're not using a hard tank frame. I get that doing a poor maneuver should be punished, but should also allow for room to recover. As of now sapping ospreys don't provide that room, making them rather annoying. Killing them would stop the field from dealing damage, but what's the point when you've already been incapped?

 

Also, on a somewhat separate vein, they shouldn't be called sapping osprey. The damage ticks aren't "sapping" your shielding and health so much as hammering them and at high levels, "decimating" would be more accurate.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Have to agree with you OP. Either let me shoot the orbs before they deploy their effect, or limit how many a single osprey can spawn at once. Its just a thing that gets to activate for free no matter what once its out. Makes zero sense to me to force me to wait until this negative effect on my mobility in a given space to happen, when I'm aware of it and can prevent with a carefully aimed shot from my primary/secondary.

[Corvid]

Chroia, on 27 Oct 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Because feedback.

If you say nothing, then clearly everything's fine.

"The squeaky wheel..." etc.

 

Did you know that the Japanese have an equivalent phrase? "The nail that stands gets hammered down."