Devstream #32 And Challenge: No Middle Ground?

[Xylia]

So.... Challenge was talked about in Devstream #32.

 

Basically, in summary (and lots of paraphrasing), they said that "We know players are talking about the game being too hard for newbies, but too easy at the end.... did you try the last couple events? Did you do Tier 4? We got good feedback about that."

 

My response:

 

So...

 

Basically, the game is either way too easy (99% of everything Pre-T3/Suspicious Shipments/T4/High-Score Breeding Grounds) or the game is too balls-hard (T3 Survival 35min+, T3 Defense 12 waves+, T4).

 

Can't we have a middle ground between too easy and too hard? Can't something be mildly challenging?

 

........no, because quite simply...

 

With mods giving some weapons +7000% performance, everything is going to die <2 seconds. You can't have "mildly challenging gameplay" when everything dies in less than 2 seconds flat. The only ways you can increase difficulty:

 

1). Mobs almost insta-kill you (Suspicious Shipments, T4). This is annoying because it does not allow player error whatsoever. How many threads have there been about whole team-killing grenades in T4 Defense? How about the Mutalist Ospreys that nuke you to the ground in seconds like the old Toxic Ancients did before they were fixed?

 

2). Mobs that are bullet sponges. I know several times the Developers on Devstreams have spoken out that they don't really like making bullet sponges because they know that bullet sponges are just plain boring.

 

3). Bullet Sponge + Insta-kill. This is basically what Survival is; without Nyx, Rhino, maybe some Frost, or Valkyr's Hysteria, you don't stand much of a chance as you get up to around the 40-minute mark (which is required if you want two chances at Rotation C), where grunts are withstanding 4, 5, 6+ Penta Grenades (with said Penta being 4x forma'd) to the face and not dying but yet they kill you in seconds if you let one shoot at you.

 

4). Invincibility Phases (Bosses). Players hate this. I don't mind it much myself, but players seem to hate the invincibility phase mechanic, such as Sargas Ruk and Lephantis.

 

5). Nightmare modifiers (which include some of the above + cheesy time limits). Not a huge fan of this myself... I don't like time limits (which is why I hate Survival), and I don't like most of them being "mob hits you once, you die." or even worse, No-Shield (which is why I always always always use Rhino if I'm about to do Nightmare).

 

......so other than the 5 above things.... you can't really increase the difficulty of the game without doing one of those things, and they are equally as annoying.

 

This is why, yet again, Pure Damage Mods (Serration, Hornet Strike) and Multishot (especially for Pistol; 280% Multishot is just too overpowered) need nerfed. You can't have a sliding difficulty scale until you do. Adding +10% survivability to an enemy does NOTHING when you have +7000% performance increases on some weapons. +100% survivability doesn't even work. I'm not even sure +1000% does. When you DO start getting up to where something makes a dent in trying to survive the damage you're doing, then you get to where mobs have hundreds of thousands of health with ridiculous damage mitigation. Mobs that can shrug off 50,000 damage Absorb explosions and laugh at you for it. etc. etc.

[Taikaponi]

The whole game is middle ground.

[Yaerion]

Switch teleported from General Discussion.

[Sasquatchias]

[Xylia]

Switch teleported from General Discussion.

 

Whoops.

 

I thought I clicked Feedback -> General. I musta just clicked General. Wish you guys would rename Feedback->General, lol.

[VentiGlondi]

Player gets too much power in this game.

Progression is usually used to lock some content away from you.

In Warframe, it's used to trivialize the content.

 

 

But you know - balance doesn't matter cause it's a PvE game!

[DarkxZero]

Well, you know that if they nerf the mods, the flame will spread and all will cry. On the other hand, let them buff the enemys, better ai and that the already "hard" parts of the game be a bit buffed.

[NikolaiLev]

Player gets too much power in this game.

Progression is usually used to lock some content away from you.

In Warframe, it's used to trivialize the content.

 

 

But you know - balance doesn't matter cause it's a PvE game!

 

It's disappointing that challenge isn't at all a priority for the developers.  What attempts they've made at it were just opportunities to add more grind (T4).  If you're a player that constantly wants a challenge, have fun grinding for T4 keys.  And T4 isn't even fun.

 

But at least we're getting new scarves to buy, right?

[unknow99]

They talked about difficulty levels introduced with the quests, during the stream(Steve I think). That could solve some problems.

 

They could even add the ability to play any node in nightmare mode for veterans, & boss rushes too.

[VentiGlondi]

It's disappointing that challenge isn't at all a priority for the developers.  What attempts they've made at it were just opportunities to add more grind (T4).  If you're a player that constantly wants a challenge, have fun grinding for T4 keys.  And T4 isn't even fun.

 

But at least we're getting new scarves to buy, right?

It's kinda sad.

What bothers me more is people that say that it's okay be able to get so powerful that you can't tell T3 from Mercury missions.

 

This is probably the first time I see progression take content away from the player by making him so powerful it becomes irrelevant.

 

They could even add the ability to play any node in nightmare mode for veterans, & boss rushes too.

I'd like an option to have lvl30+ on all the tilesets.

I'd like to play on Earth sometimes but I don't feel like reseting my stuff back to rank 0 so that enemies don't die by looking at me.

Edited July 5, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[LukeAura]

Well, you know that if they nerf the mods, the flame will spread and all will cry. On the other hand, let them buff the enemys, better ai and that the already "hard" parts of the game be a bit buffed.

That's exactly what's been said is the problem? 

The scaling of gun performance is so incredibly intense that you'd either have to increase the scaling of everything, not just enemies but our defenses and abilities, or just reduce final gun damage. Reduce the effect of scaling, not increase it. That would solve so many outstanding issues in this game

[Phatose]

This is why, yet again, Pure Damage Mods (Serration, Hornet Strike) and Multishot (especially for Pistol; 280% Multishot is just too overpowered) need nerfed. You can't have a sliding difficulty scale until you do. Adding +10% survivability to an enemy does NOTHING when you have +7000% performance increases on some weapons. +100% survivability doesn't even work. I'm not even sure +1000% does. When you DO start getting up to where something makes a dent in trying to survive the damage you're doing, then you get to where mobs have hundreds of thousands of health with ridiculous damage mitigation. Mobs that can shrug off 50,000 damage Absorb explosions and laugh at you for it. etc. etc.

 

 

I still maintain that pure damage mods are not overpowered by themselves, but rather that it's their interaction with each other that's the big problem.  I'd include crit chance/damage as well. 

 

Serration by itself is +165% damage.  Barrel Diffusion by itself is +120%.  Both both together isn't +285% damage, it's +480%.

Add in a typical elemental mod, which is +90% by itself, and you're at +1000% or so. 

 

If it happens to be a crit weapon - say soma, with it's 30/300 CC/CD, and you add on point strike, that's effectively +90% damage by itself.  that +90 now puts you at +2000% total damage.

 

If these were additive instead of multiplicative, you'd be at around 5x damage.  Instead, you're at 20x.  And if you add in a crit damage mod on top, you'd be at 6x....but instead, you're closer to 40x.

 

 

Change that, and a lot of things change.  The rarely used mods like say, fast hands, which might give you an effective +10% damage output suddenly becomes a lot more valuable because that is multiplicative.  You won't put it on as the first mod on your gun - but after 3 or 4 mods, it starts looking real nice.

 

 

The big, important mods stay really nice - 165% is still better then 90% after all - so our effort leveling them isn't wasted.  But we're no longer anywhere near as tied to them, as switching them over to something else is going to lose 165% tops if we have a maxxed weapon, versus now where we lose like 2000% damage if we switch them out.

 

They'd need to drastically drop the HP of enemies to compensate, but is that really a big deal?

Edited July 5, 2014 by Phatose

[Xylia]

They talked about difficulty levels introduced with the quests, during the stream(Steve I think). That could solve some problems.

 

They could even add the ability to play any node in nightmare mode for veterans, & boss rushes too.

 

Again, refer to what I said in my OP about "Increasing Difficulty"

 

Increase Difficulty, how?

 

By making them like T3/T4 Survival where Lv45+ mobs take 5, 6, 7+ penta grenades to kill, per?

 

Or maybe you want T4 Defense where one grenade wipes the whole squad in one shot?

 

That's my point: It is either T3 Exterminate (everything dies in 2-3 seconds) or 35min+ T3 Survival (stuff is too ridiculously scaled) and NOTHING in-between.

 

Even Suspicious Shipments, fun as they were, were still "everything dies in 2 seconds" with a "you die in 2 seconds yourself" tacked on top of it (which does not allow for much of any player error).

 

 

 

They'd need to drastically drop the HP of enemies to compensate, but is that really a big deal?

 

Most of the opponents of this idea are against it because they won't feel that "Godliness" that comes from slapping Serration+Multishot+Elements on their guns to go from "it takes 10 bullets to kill something" to "I can kill 3 enemies with one shot with Punch Through".

 

And hey, being Overpowered to Godlike Levels is fun.........for a few minutes. Then it gets old after awhile.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Xylia

[CapedBaldy]

You increase the difficulty by introducing new mechanics. Then it'll be fine to have godlike power.

[Phatose]

And hey, being Overpowered to Godlike Levels is fun.........for a few minutes. Then it gets old after awhile.

Most of the opponents of this idea are against it because they won't feel that "Godliness" that comes from slapping Serration+Multishot+Elements on their guns to go from "it takes 10 bullets to kill something" to "I can kill 3 enemies with one shot with Punch Through".

 

Well, based on my personal experience, I'd say the difference in feeling between killing things in one shot because you deal 5x damage versus 50x damage....is, well, non-existent.  But I'd still rather the opponents voice it themselves, in case it's not quite that simple.

 

 

You increase the difficulty by introducing new mechanics. Then it'll be fine to have godlike power.

 

Problem you run into with that is that if the new mechanics don't make them invulnerable somehow, they don't matter because the second I see them, they're dead.  While I'm strongly for some new mechanics that allow enemies to live longer then a fruit fly when I see them, if they're the only methods in use, I start to wonder why I'm even bothering to level up my stuff. 

[CapedBaldy]

I thought the Corpus helmets were really nice with their 10x damage reduction until you could break them off. Never bothered trying to go for body shots after that.

 

Thing about making enemies live longer against the power we have now, is that we'll get swarmed extremely quickly with how the game works currently.

[neKroMancer]

I think the fact that we can stack damage mods is the problem. Player will alway pursue power and stacking is the most direct means of getting maximum power. It promotes bulletsponge AI design to combat this mechanic. Lessen power gained from stacking will result in more balanced and better challenging content.

IMO, we can keep the current percentage increase from each mod as it is but giving diminished return on subsequent mod stacking (by taking more mod point or giving less than listed bonus damage). This will result in player finding the 'right' number of mods to stack and leave the rest for utility mods. Player will be able to stack damage mods but the cost will be high and require multiple forma to combat the diminishing return. Or making an attachment system like Zamboni's idea. I don't mind.

Another problem is, of course, AI design. We can't really make a good challenge without it represents both skill, progression, and diversity.

[Xylia]

I think the fact that we can stack damage mods is the problem. Player will alway pursue power and stacking is the most direct means of getting maximum power. It promotes bulletsponge AI design to combat this mechanic. Lessen power gained from stacking will result in more balanced and better challenging content.

IMO, we can keep the current percentage increase from each mod as it is but giving diminished return on subsequent mod stacking (by taking more mod point or giving less than listed bonus damage). This will result in player finding the 'right' number of mods to stack and leave the rest for utility mods. Player will be able to stack damage mods but the cost will be high and require multiple forma to combat the diminishing return. Or making an attachment system like Zamboni's idea. I don't mind.

Another problem is, of course, AI design. We can't really make a good challenge without it represents both skill, progression, and diversity.

 

AI won't change much of anything if everything dies in a split second.

 

You could give them awesome cover and flanking mechanics; Grineer already use this to some extent. What, you've never seen a Grineer blind-fire from behind a crate to give cover fire so his friends can move? Of course not... you killed him and his buddies before they could unload a whole grakata clip (which takes 4 seconds to do).

 

That's the problem with the current design of Warframe. We're just too stinking powerful and the only way to change that is to either turn everything into a massive bullet sponge, or make everything one-shot us and then throw hundreds of enemies at us.

 

There can't be a "Curve" of challenge.... it goes from Nonexistent to "OMG! WTF!!!" in the matter of 5 minutes in a T3/T4 Survival. That's all it takes. 5, maybe 10min depending on your gear and skill. You go from murdering the enemies en masse with no difficulty... to enemies not dying to whole clips even from your godliest weapon setups, where only Chaos will work.

[notlamprey]

I noticed that the Dev team has been hinting at a UI/HUD 2.0 of sorts, so I'm trying to hold my current critique on Warframe's overall difficulty curve until I have a better idea of what the new HUD is capable of.

[Xylia]

I noticed that the Dev team has been hinting at a UI/HUD 2.0 of sorts, so I'm trying to hold my current critique on Warframe's overall difficulty curve until I have a better idea of what the new HUD is capable of.

 

 

What does a HUD have to do with Godlike Weapons (or, rather, their mods) laying waste to everything and causing them (DE) to have to jack mob numbers (Health, Damage Output, Number of Mobs encountered, etc) up to ridiculous levels to compensate?

Edited July 5, 2014 by Xylia

[neKroMancer]

AI won't change much of anything if everything dies in a split second.

 

You could give them awesome cover and flanking mechanics; Grineer already use this to some extent. What, you've never seen a Grineer blind-fire from behind a crate to give cover fire so his friends can move? Of course not... you killed him and his buddies before they could unload a whole grakata clip (which takes 4 seconds to do).

 

That's the problem with the current design of Warframe. We're just too stinking powerful and the only way to change that is to either turn everything into a massive bullet sponge, or make everything one-shot us and then throw hundreds of enemies at us.

 

There can't be a "Curve" of challenge.... it goes from Nonexistent to "OMG! WTF!!!" in the matter of 5 minutes in a T3/T4 Survival. That's all it takes. 5, maybe 10min depending on your gear and skill. You go from murdering the enemies en masse with no difficulty... to enemies not dying to whole clips even from your godliest weapon setups, where only Chaos will work.

 

I already offered a way to lessen player's power without taking away freedom the game has been offering. There must be a compromise somewhere. Look like you jump to the last paragraph without reading the whole thing, sigh.

 

Take some time to formulate your response Tenno,  this one is a bit rushed.   

[Ja_man]

First they need to remove serration and elemental stacking to fix scaling. Then change powers to cooldown and add weights to weapons so heavier/stronger guns slow down power recharge times like in ME3 multiplayer. Problem solved.

[Xylia]

I already offered a way to lessen player's power without taking away freedom the game has been offering. There must be a compromise somewhere. Look like you jump to the last paragraph without reading the whole thing, sigh.

 

Take some time to formulate your response Tenno,  this one is a bit rushed. 

 

After reading both posts again, I think I meant to just respond to the last sentence (because I don't have anything to add with the previous stuff said in that post -- adding DR to the damage mods is indeed one way to solve the problem, and even one I've suggested in the past).

 

As with adding DR (which is basically the same thing as nerfing how much you get out of those mods), opponents will complain that it "damages their progression" or "would make them feel too weak" (even though I specifically stated that mobs would be re-balanced).

 

Opponents appear to think (or at least the way I interpret it) that if they don't go from being weak as crap to being godlike, then there isn't enough "Progression" for them and all of their "Work" spent ranking up to Rank10 Serration would be "Wasted".

 

I can't even pretend to understand why it is such a big huge deal, and why someone needs 3000-7000% damage increases on their weapon to feel like they are "Progressing", but I DO know that some of these very same people who resist the ideas I put forth in threads like these are the very same people who keep whining about the game being too easy.

 

They've been doing so ever since Clan Weaponry and Forma were introduced to the game. They take their "Overpowered Weapon Of The Month" and put enough Forma into it to 100% max it out and then whine when it makes the game too easy. Then they take to the forums and complain "OMIGAWD WARFRAME IS TOO EASY!".

 

And to be honest... there really isn't anything that can be done to make them happy. They want Godlike Power, but yet they want the game to be Challenging...

 

You can't have it both ways!

 

Not without some cheap gimmicks like enemies one-shotting you/your team (Just go Loki to prevent that from happening), making everything bullet sponges (bring a Nyx), or give bosses Invincibility Stages (which they complain about).

[VentiGlondi]

As with adding DR (which is basically the same thing as nerfing how much you get out of those mods), opponents will complain that it "damages their progression" or "would make them feel too weak" (even though I specifically stated that mobs would be re-balanced).

 

Opponents appear to think (or at least the way I interpret it) that if they don't go from being weak as crap to being godlike, then there isn't enough "Progression" for them and all of their "Work" spent ranking up to Rank10 Serration would be "Wasted".

I wouldn't call that progression. Most of progression-based games get harder despite the fact the player gets stronger.

That's closer to power-creep than progression, but I don't want to call it like that.

Edited July 5, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[Marthrym]

Nerf weapon damage. I'm sick and tired of the "high-level" content. "I shot you or you one shot me". Up until our "dear" (reads "retard") enemy scaling goes bonkers and it's only "AI one shots player no matter what frame/build/skill/whatever they use".^^'

Less weapon damage would allow a better scaling. No need for HP bags with tons of armor and crazy damage then. Too many big numbers in Warframe.