Efficiency Is Inevitable; Why Removing Serration Won't Fix Anything

[Spoof310]

You can use whatever mods you want. Don't like serration don't use it. 

 

I won't even explain why that's bullS#&$...

 

 

____

 

 

DE has mentioned they would add new mods instead that add conditional damage, for example on headshots or unaware targets.

It's not about taking flat damage increases out of the game, it's about varying your playstyle. It's dreadfully mindnumbing to have a flat +165% damage increase without you having to do anything. But a +200% Damage on Headshoth with a Latron Prime?

 

Imagine the possibilites!

[drMightyPotato]

If people think that seration is not a mandatory mod they may not be playing the same game. Every damn weapon i own has one form of "serration" or another. Face if you are going to any mission past Earth you WILL take serraton one way or another simply cause you will hardly do any dammage with about 90% of the weapons we currently have.

Besides if serration is going to. Be removed more than just weapons but every enemy and skill will have to be balanced and its something im personally looking forward to.

And using 40+ mins as an argument against removing serration is a moot point since a) rewards just reset after a certain period and b) DE had to put such stupid scaling because people were acting like spoiled brats.

[Chaosdreamer]

The game should be made for enjoyment. It's a pve game.

 

But DE sees people complain about balance so they want to show that they care by doing things like removing serration. 

Removing serration won't do anything as you've said and there will always be other mods to go to. I don't see how making every single mod situationally specific would improve the game. The customization is good as it is.   

 

The way they have mr set up really restricts how they change the game. They can't remove serration and increase level cap of guns to make up for it.

 

There are plenty of other things to look at in the game like maybe npcs and quests... and dare I say a story. 

I did'nt read everything but , about balance , theire need to be balance ,some people won't agree but when you get on hard mission done , you can enjoy victory , but when doing the same regular mission withouth any difficulty you just look at your reward and restart...yes PVE is for fun ,but if it for one shoot ko everything withouth looking screw it

[xyLoneZ]

OP brings a good point. It feels like we're going back to Viver from last year. Adding LoS to nerf mag/excal/trin only to be bypassed by saryn/trin combo again. I'm noticing a pattern here.

 

Besides, DE should be focusing on other bugs/things. 2 YEARS INTO Warframe, and dead corpses are still blocking our shots. REALLY, DE? Maybe fix that instead of fiddling with the current mod system!

[nemarsde]

Removing Serration et al and increasing base damage per rank is a sound idea, imo.

 

Serration et al are requisite on all weapons. So it acts as a random barrier for new players, dissuades them from investing in new weapons (why bother if they don't have sufficient raw damage mod?), and prevents them from progressing in the star map.

 

From a game design perspective, it must make it very difficult to balance weapons (effectiveness and crafting cost), and almost impossible to manage the new player experience.

 

So I can understand why they want to replace it with something more predictable, and support the idea of removing raw damage mods.

Edited January 18, 2015 by nemarsde

[TheGuyver]

And lo and behold, we got a free mod slot !

Finally someone will put in a Primed Fast Hands !

 

That's assuming, in the event that they do remove serration, etc that they won't remove mod slots like they did with warframe slots.

[Xaturas]

I won't even explain why that's bullS#&$...

 

 

____

 

 

DE has mentioned they would add new mods instead that add conditional damage, for example on headshots or unaware targets.

It's not about taking flat damage increases out of the game, it's about varying your playstyle. It's dreadfully mindnumbing to have a flat +165% damage increase without you having to do anything. But a +200% Damage on Headshoth with a Latron Prime?

 

Imagine the possibilites!

I don't have to imagine S#&$.

 

When DE brings new stuff we will have new stuff.

But until then either use stuff you have or don't but stop complaining and showing down other players throat *your style of warframe*. You like to play a particular way sure do, but don't try to speak for whole community.

 

There is a reasons devs don't give a S#&$ about forums in 99.9% of games, because people using the forums are usually around 5-10% of community, and the vocal minority is another <5% of that already small part of community. Played games to much have to much experience, you don't have to tell me how your brilliant idea would or wouldn't change the game. DE will do what they want and bring what they want so deal with it and adapt. Making 1000's threads about same thing wont change much.

 

Headshots etc are already having bonus dmg.

As for unaware crap, well only loki would use it, because frankly AI in this game is so bad that playing it stealthy would either require for you to spend 5-10 more time if not more for a mission (for same reward) or you would have to glue yourself to the terminals turning off a alarms left and right.

 

Also I'm not defending serration, I'm all fine and dandy  with it being removed and changed so that when you lvl up weapon your base dmg increases, no matter how &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; it may be (my gun is lvl 10 so it shoots 10 times better than lvl 1 because magic).

However whole game would need to be rebalanced to adjust it.

Imo DE should just fix the game itself as in scalling and many weapons being pretty much useless, over removing one mod. All this mod does is increases base dmg. People who have maxed serration usually have formas potatoes and other stuff in weapon, and it doesnt matter if they kill enemy in 0.2 second or 0.1 second.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Xaturas

[Qynchou]

Thats why I think DE needs to add mods that would change mechanics/situational mods rather than just straight up stat boosts.

[AhziDahaka]

I've always been a fan of removing Serration, Hornet Strike, and other base-damage mods (as well as multishot) simply because they are "mandatory" upgrades that work against the point of the modding system. I believe this to the point that I believe elemental mods shouldn't increase damage but only add elemental effects.  The way physical damage mods should also be different so as to modify the ratio of the different damage types and thus add flexibility.

 

Basically, as one can tell from the above-stated, simply removing Serration and such wouldn't fix things--it would take changing the entire damage system again along with the modding system because the problems are ultimately on a more fundamental level than an executionary level.

[victor_victory]

Imo, lack of build variety is the least of DE's concern. Weapon balance on the other hand is more important.

Having more weapons to use is better than having more ways to use one weapon. Shotgun and sniper are still weak, there is too little weapons that are viable in endgame and a lot of weapons are too weak for the resource needed to build it. 

[Venus-Venera]

Thats why I think DE needs to add mods that would change mechanics/situational mods rather than just straight up stat boosts.

for example? 

there are status effects and warframe abilities already

[Qynchou]

for example? 

there are status effects and warframe abilities already

If status increase was a seperate mod sure, but not now. Rifle status mod is like 30% without anything else, why use that when I can use a 60% status and damage mod.

 

Finisher damage on weapons, explosive/lifesteal rounds, projectile speed (rifle one is the rarest mod in the game when it shouldnt be), conditional damage mods, weapon specific mods, homing projectiles for torid/ogris/penta etc etc

[Hypernaut1]

i like serration, i think they need to nerf some of the other 90%+ dmg mods. If i dont want to slot Fire dmg, i shouldnt be penalizd by losing out on 90% of my dmg potential.

[Venus-Venera]

If status increase was a seperate mod sure, but not now. Rifle status mod is like 30% without anything else, why use that when I can use a 60% status and damage mod.

 

Finisher damage on weapons, explosive/lifesteal rounds, projectile speed (rifle one is the rarest mod in the game when it shouldnt be), conditional damage mods, weapon specific mods, homing projectiles for torid/ogris/penta etc etc

ye. very cool ideas. but i think it will take some time till they release something like this.

[Tigersight]

That is an example of a few mods that would be an effective change for the problem, but now come up with 15 more.

I'll take a shot at that one.

 

1. Headshot

2. Bodyshot

3. Legshot

4. Arm shot

5. Multiple pellets on same shot(shotguns)

6. Shot in back

7. While unaware

8. Per shot without missing

9. Increased crit chance per shot without missing

10. Multiple enemies in a single shot

11. Shots on same enemy

12. Is targetting you.

13. Is not targetting you.

14. Increases the closer they are.

15. Increases the further away they are.

16. While airborne.

17. While on ground.

18. While wallrunning.

19. While wall clinging.

20. While crouched.

21. While sliding.

22. While above.

23. While below.

24. For duration after switching weapons.

25. While hip firing.

26. While aiming down sight.

27. While moving.

28. While enemy moving.

29. While standing still.

30. While enemy standing still.

31. While enemy cc'd.

32. While enemy in air/ragdolled.

33. While enemy knocked down.

34. After getting a headshot on that enemy.

35. For duration after getting a headshot.

36. After getting a crit on that enemy.

37. For duration after getting a crit.

38. After taking damage from that enemy.

39. You haven't taken damage from that enemy.

40. For a duration after taking damage.

41. For a duration after your shield runs out.

42. For a duration after your shield recharges.

43. After taking health damage.

44. While you have higher percent health.

45. While you have higher percent shields.

46. While you have lower percent health.

47. While you have lower percent shields.

48. While your shields are recharging.

49. While you have max energy.

50. While you have no energy.

51. Increases with enemy higher percent health.

52. Increases with enemy lower percent health.

 

Yeah I'll just stop there.

Also:

 

 

15 more? That's it? I was thinking more like 30 or 40.

 

Yeah hit 40 easy too.

[Tostov]

-snip-

While I'd love to see some of these...

It gonna be like stances... gotta grind 'em all.

Separate from that, ten or so is actually a good number.

[Mokkania]

not untrue, if you only remove serration, it won't change much.

[Qynchou]

I'll take a shot at that one.

 

1. Headshot

6. Shot in back (same as 12,13, 7 and 39)

8. Per shot without missing (same as 11)

10. Multiple enemies in a single shot (same as 51 and 52)

14. Increases the closer they are. (just call it damage fallof, same as 15)

16. While airborne. (condition to be in the air, if opposite youre on the ground, why would there be a bonus for that?)

17-23|25-30|40-47  lol, while sneezing, while eating a hamburger, while breathing etc etc, no?

25. While hip firing. (could be a thing for increased accuracy but hip firing already improves a players aim)

31. While enemy cc'd. (same as 33)

32. While enemy in air/ragdolled. (happens 0.0001% of the time, trivial)

34. After getting a headshot on that enemy. (same as 35)

36. After getting a crit on that enemy. (crit mods do that already, crit damage does it already, same as 37)

49. While you have max energy.

50. While you have no energy. (a bad status should not be rewarding, an achievement should, see 49)

 

I took out, in my opinion, trivial ones or ones that make no sense whatsoever. I mean, while enemy is moving or standing still? Come on dude, that has nothing to do with modding and everything to do with your aim.

 

edit:

To clarify your approach:

 

1-360 - while attacking enemy from an X degree angle.

 

Look DE, I came up with 360 conditional mods.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Qynchou

[Venus-Venera]

25. While hip firing.

even this can be very useful for some combos. for example it can highly reduce shotgun spread (with zoom + crouch)

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

As I agree with you, removing serration will, regardless of any comments, free up a slot.

Said slot will be open for whatever, regardless of how it is used.

And frankly, I'd rather be efficient and have ammo.

[Archeyef]

Removing Serration et al and increasing base damage per rank is a sound idea, imo.

 

Serration et al are requisite on all weapons. So it acts as a random barrier for new players, dissuades them from investing in new weapons (why bother if they don't have sufficient raw damage mod?), and prevents them from progressing in the star map.

 

From a game design perspective, it must make it very difficult to balance weapons (effectiveness and crafting cost), and almost impossible to manage the new player experience.

 

So I can understand why they want to replace it with something more predictable, and support the idea of removing raw damage mods.

 

This. This, right here, is sufficient reason to remove serration and other straight damage buff mods, while also moving their buff to the levelling system. Will it change anything for the established players, who have put hours upon hours into the game? Probably not. They'll gravitate to the "most efficient" build, the same as they do now. But we are not the only players.

 

The amount of time and effort you have to put into levelling just serration is enormous for a new player, generally not something they can accomplish by the time they have access to the higher end content, which will floor them faster than Nef Anyo getting shot with a toxin marelok. Moving damage increase to a passive buff based on weapon level would likely result in new players actually being able to hold their own further into the starmap without ridiculous grind, or paying plat. As they play, their weapons become more powerful. As their weapons become more powerful, they can handle stronger enemies.

 

The value of moving the high cost, major investments that are straight damage mods to the weapon's leveling system should be self evident. It will allow new players to actually enjoy the game without it becoming a grindfest too early, even though it of course will eventually become that, and it will have virtually no impact on established players, who will just move on to the new most efficient build. As long as they are compensated for their investments somehow, it's probably not gonna be a major issue for them. That is a good enough reason.

[StinkyPygmy]

If people think that seration is not a mandatory mod they may not be playing the same game. Every damn weapon i own has one form of "serration" or another. Face if you are going to any mission past Earth you WILL take serraton one way or another simply cause you will hardly do any dammage with about 90% of the weapons we currently have.

Besides if serration is going to. Be removed more than just weapons but every enemy and skill will have to be balanced and its something im personally looking forward to.

And using 40+ mins as an argument against removing serration is a moot point since a) rewards just reset after a certain period and b) DE had to put such stupid scaling because people were acting like spoiled brats.

Then explain to me why I do just fine without it?

I regularly use tigrus, sybaris, grinlock, lanka, braton prime. supra, vasto, lex prime, akstilettos etc and never touch pure dmg mods unless I'm going for hour-ish survivals. Most of those weapons are neither OP or UP.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm behind a removal or rework of these mods and any balances that come with it in terms of enemies and that, but really very few weapons require serration for even high level play.

Edited January 18, 2015 by StinkyPygmy

[ARavenousPanda]

tbh i feel the problem isnt in the mods as much as it is in weapon design. Most weapons are just trash in general in the way there is a huge chasm created by the top tier weapons which are easily accessible. Thats why im all for mastery locking top tier stuff, but allowing access through plat. Means players have  general idea of what they can/should build, ensures variation and slows the power creep.

[Guest ---Excalibur---]

Removing Serration is a half-hearted fix for the problem. There are too many unbalanced weapons (useless), too many unbalanced enemies. Serration is not the solution.

[fatpig84]

Again color me unimpressed.

Even if DE adds conditional damage mods, the extra free slot means you are doing much more damage than before.

As long you fulfill the conditions of course.

 

But I wager everyone just takes the headshot one or put shred/auger/seeker/ seeking force since doubling your DPS is better than just doing doing more damage to a corpse that blocks your follow up shots.

 

 

Even if DE tames down the damage gain from unranked to rank 30 to only a mere 120%.

And then they re-adjust enemies levels, the power curve is still pretty much the same.

Because everything is relative to scale.

 

Just that currently our scale is off the chart and needs adjustment.

 

But reducing damage then reducing enemy toughness to compensate (remember our current level 40 is OLD level 100), the power scaling won't be that different, if any at all.  Unless they are going to severely over nerf until getting to wave 20 of a T4 is only achievable to only top 10% of the player base.

 

But I doubt DE is that crazy. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by fatpig84