CrownOfShadows

I think Retribution is one of the better exilus mods, but extremely niche; I ran it on my Gyre for a while. I don't think it should proc off gunfire though (I think that's what you're suggesting?) as that would be op - all the enemies would be electrocuted whenever they shoot at you i.e. all the time. I mean, yes, stuff like wisp motes, Volt, Gyre and Diriga kinda do this, but idk feels way too strong for an exilus mod. Honestly, I think we need 2 exilus mod slots. One for PSF, and one for actual exilus mods that never see the light of day. Or better yet just convert all the "true" mobility mods to new type of polarity like a mobility polarity, add a slot for that, and then the original exilus can be for all the "false" exilus mods like PSF, Preparation, Coaction Drift, Master Thief, < cough all augments could be made exilus to compete in this slot cough >, etc. Then, one day, we could delete PSF, give it by default to all frames or as a helminth option, and then the exilus slot would truly be competitive instead of being 90%-99% used for PSF.

I don't especially get the impression that DE has the mindset that they are trying to balance warframes against each other - which is what this pivot theory shines in. Rather I think they are just trying to balance warframes against content. I understand why this might be the rationale: it falls into the "It's a PvE game" argument that many on these forums make - where only how the frame interacts with enemies needs to be considered. However, it's not just a PvE game it's a co-op game, and I think this is what causes a lot of problems because players have to compare what their frames/weapons are doing to what other's are doing - this just happens naturally by playing together. Comparing Nyx to Saryn just feels bad - because Nyx isn't balanced against Saryn. I'm not saying DE never considers how frames relate to each other, but I do think this is an extremely low priority for them, otherwise they'd be constantly keeping the warframe roster up to date, making sure all warframes can compete around the same level. Now there are other factors in play too: dev time, other focus, new content, etc, which also makes keeping everything balanced difficult, but I still think that they tend to view frames in a vacuum rather than how they work together.

Visual feedback is good. Disruption definitely needs it. I'm not actually arguing that, in fact I support it. I just want to tweak it to be more true to the previous way it was played. We can put visual feedback in that helps the player 'hear' it on screen without actually showing them right where it is.

While I don't hate this idea and could possibly get behind it - better than nothing I suppose - I think that on a more meta note whatever the designers feel the most engaging experience is should be the default, and provide an option for players that need visual support. So basically just the inverse. However, I'll note once again that even better than either of these would be to just include visual feedback by default but make it so that it doesn't trivialize the mode.

I'm confused. Do you want less power or more power or free power?

You and I have very different definitions of "toxic" Nerf requests are usually coming from a real place of pain. Normally nobody wants their equipment nerfed. When somebody says 'this is way too strong' is it because they're trying to troll the community? No. It's because they're experiencing a problem. "Toxic" is malicious. If you think making a balance request is malicious, you haven't experienced 1/10000000 of what a gamer community can do to you.

Calling for nerfs is not toxic. It's not like this is coming out of the blue. Stop and consider for a millisecond where all these requests are coming from maybe? Or not, y'know, just live in your little echo chamber of 'I hate DE and I hate everyone and no game need to be balanced ever because reasons' Wait, what were the reasons again?

You're an oxy moron. Essentially you are saying nobody matters but you.

Whining about nerfs when they haven't even happened yet is even more foolish

This is completely false of course. We play together and what people do affects others. It's a coop game. We exist in a social space, this is not a single player game. And even a single player game needs to be balanced. People ruining other people's game has an impact, yes it does. The people who pretend that what they are doing doesn't impact anyone else are the ones who are toxic. The people who slam DE for taking appropriate action for the benefit of all are the criminal element. Civilize yourself. Acknowledge others. Respect others. Dial back the selfishness and petulance. Graduate from kindergarten. Think about the greater good, about the community you live in. And you haven't even seen the nerf numbers yet fcol

The idea that a PvE game doesn't need to care about balance is so foolish. YES, it is WAY less important than in PvP, but we're all playing together. What we do affects other people. It's not a solo game, WF is a coop at heart. When something gets out of control it affects other players, and that is the criteria DE has repeatedly explained. And it is totally legit. This "never nerf anything" idea wouldn't even work in a purely solo game. Single players games, believe it or not, are balanced by the devs to be engaging and fun. ALL games are. Nobody, not even you, wants a game where they have to do nothing. Remove all challenge, remove all fun. Game design 101. PvP games require the most balance. Co-op the next most. <---------- THIS IS WARFRAME RIGHT HERE Single player the lowest rung, but honestly still pretty high compared to zero balance. Real life none.

The visual feedback is good... ...................... ................. ............ .................................................................................................................................................................................................

Well the thing I'm saying is that you can keep the QoL and also keep the difficulty by just changing how the visual feedback is displayed. It doesn't have to be one or the other. We don't have to kill the mode to get visual feedback in there. I actually can get behind this. I think buffing the demolishers and especially making them more like warriors would be a really fun addition, where not only do you have to find them and stop them but you have to engage in a real fight with them (as opposed to just pumping them full of bullets while they ignore you). Another thing that might be cool is to keep them as they are but give them escorts, so you have to fight the escorts - that might be too difficult though, depending - you could have a slower pace variant with this maybe, where the demolisher doesn't move quite so fast but has a heavy guard.

Yup, solo is the way I play these. Every so often I try one pub and it always makes me so frustrated that I'm like "oh yeah, I remember now, back to solo" Super ironic given that they were setup up to be "solo is a no go" They seem to be planning the same thing for archimedea we'll see how that goes, hopefully the mission design isn't as bad.

I remain completely mystified by what DE's vision of warframe overguard is for the long term. If you introduce something like this on top of everything else, you should have a plan for it. The frames chosen to have overguard are bizarre. The hyper-sharing of overguard is bizarre. The high numbers and high regen rate of it are bizarre. Like what is the point of it? Is it supposed to be new survival mechanic? But then why does its scaling suck? Is it meant to be a soft increase in general EHP? Then why doesn't everyone have access to it and why is it so trivial to replenish in huge quantities? I'm just really confused about what it's place in our arsenal is meant to be. It's on track to replace shields and hp completely at this rate - if we keep putting hyper OG on everything, soon everyone will build like Dante - just ability mods.

I thought about the fading icon, but I don't think that will help too much. My reasoning here is that it will still retain all the problems of exactness in direction. Since the icon will always be on top of all the other visual noise too, I am not sure that an icon even at 10% opacity wouldn't 'give it away' as it were. Another option i considered was to shrink the icon based on distance, but I think that would be more annoying than anything and it still has the exactness problem. I think a simple HUD icon (not positioned on the demolisher's location but just permanently attached to the side of the user's screen like the combo counter) that just flashed with demolisher proximity would probably be the most elegant solution. Move one direction, get a flash - it'd be the equivalent of hearing the beep - you'd know it's somewhere this way. Go down a path, less flashes, wrong way. Go down another, more flashes, right way. Still mark the demolisher with a red icon once it's found like normal though. This should preserve the search, preserve the uncertainty. It'd just be a direct transfer of the sound information to the screen - it wouldn't tell you where exactly, but it would clue you in. The only scenario I can imagine where this might be more confusing than the audio is when there are two or more demolishers at once. In that case, the sound would be superior - because the flashing icon would be trying to flash for two things at once and it would just get muddled. A possible workaround would be to allow up to 4 demolisher icons and when there is more than one just add another icon to inform the user that they are 'hearing' two or more, and flash them respective to the distance of each. Even further, you could color code the icons so that the user would know which conduit demolisher is close and if there's more than one which is further away. That might be too much information - since the sound doesn't tell you that either, but off the top of my head I don't mind it too much.

Yeah I think removing the sharing on all overgaurd is the first step that should be taken across the board.

I was about to say that the icon doesn't fade but you made me doubt myself and I went and checked to make sure. It doesn't fade with distance. But it does fade when it turns off and on. Exactly, and once you are facing forward there is no stereo anymore. In retrospect, I think the reason those people were so upset is because I said it "doesn't give you direction" which they misinterpreted (intentionally or not idk) to mean "there is no stereo" which isn't what I was saying - I was just saying it's always approximate. Well, I wasn't saying it doesn't modulate with distance, you can definitely get a vague sense of it's distance by how loud it is. Yes, that's basically it. It removed the search aspect of the mode and made it just a little too easy and boring. If I personally had to choose between the current visual feedback and the old system, I'd take the old system. I understand its necessity and agree with it - there should be visual feedback, and like I said I really prefer to be able to play my own music during disruption, but this change to the feel of it - like the the title says, it's killing it for me, the benefit does not outweigh the loss for me, not by a mile. I no longer want to play it, there's no joy in it anymore, it's just another trudging mission now where you go where you're told. There's no player agency - it's now a robot job.

Hm, there are plenty of posts out there about overgaurd and pretty much everything else, I just made one recently myself: They just don't get the community all worked up. And even I myself also mentioned Styanax just before this: *We should be saying something about Nezha's augment too but I guess we can only shout about one thing at a time as a community.

Well I got flayed alive on page 1 for quoting things to people. Sigh, I'll just re-type them I guess - assuming your request here is in good faith - because quoting them now will lead to reactions without context. How audio differs from visual: Volume. The sound starts low and gets louder as you get closer. The current visuals just show it instantly without any 'volume' knob. (Yes, they do turn off sporadically, I cover this later). Environment. Sounds compete with each other. A low volume sound gets drowned out by higher volume. Most people don't bother adjusting their sound settings every time they play disruption, meaning that the demolisher sound when it starts is competing with guns, abilities, Little Duck, etc, etc. This means that the sound indicator is effectively pushed further out. (While there is a lot of visual noise in warframe, the demolisher icon is not lost in it to the point of being able to miss it - it is always on top) Direction. The spicy part, but it's still very real and I'm going to list it again in full confidence. Audio does not give you precise direction, it can only give you approximate direction at best, or no direction at worst. Visuals are precise indicators showing the demolisher's exact direction with zero ambiguity, whether that is above you, below you, or very far away. Distance. This is nuanced and I can see people debating this, and I can agree it's not a strong element at all, but I'm listing it anyway because I do think it's a noticeable difference, though very mild. The audio does not tell you the precise distance. It is very hard to know how far away the demolisher really is just based on the proximity volume - you only know 'wow it's really close' or 'it's pretty far away'. Just like direction, it's approximate. There's no doubt about this, but now the counterargument here is that the visual icon doesn't tell you the precise distance either - I find this to be both true (there is no meter indicator) and not true (you still have a pretty good idea of how far away it is - I think this is because you are mentally comparing the icon to your map knowledge - you know what is off in that direction and the path they must take and you can mentally project the icon's position to the path). So they are both quite imprecise in this aspect, but I personally find that the visuals are still winning out in distance detection, albeit very slight. I will note that the visuals definitely have potential to be perfectly precise (meter indicator) but the sound has no such potential. Muffling. The demolisher beep is affected by some architecture. I am not sure why this is, maybe they are doing a line-of-sight test or maybe they have certain walls tagged or maybe some more advanced sound design is going on, but we've all had the experience of coming around a corner, opening a door or coming into a new room and suddenly the beep jumps and is much louder because we are suddenly in the same space. It's up for debate if this is a good aspect but I rather think it is - it helps us to know when we have to go around. The visuals suffer this same effect slightly because they do turn off, but the visuals are still vastly superior to the sound in this case because of their precision - you know exactly where to go once they are back on - the visuals are not muffled, they just blink. I note that I really dislike this change to the visuals, I don't think it's accomplishing what it wants to in a satisfying way. In summary, the current visuals have no ambiguity at all (except distance and an occasional flicker) whereas audio is imprecise about everything.

The thing I really don't like about the "DE doesn't want us to have fun" crowd is that it is so disingenuous and rude to DE. Of course they want you to have fun. AND they care about their game. You don't have to bash DE for taking corrective action that is sorely needed. And this sentiment only seems to pop up when something is atrociously overpowered and being abused or there is a really bad exploit that people are taking advantage of, so it seems to primarily be a social engineering cudgel of the criminal.

Oh the irony! Cry Alas, Dear Thursby, for the Irony! See you not those fair hills, with fields now full of irony? Reap and whey, sod and trough, for the irony!

Came to bump. Limbo needs some help.

I'll bump you too.

Not sure how to bump this without being a tool, but I saw a new Limbo post and just wanted to push this one back up a page for visibility while if possible promoting there's as well. Take the best ideas of both, he needs some love for sure. Not as much as Chroma or Vauban or a couple others, but he definitely still needs it. This latest one has some pretty good ideas included that are worth considering, if DE even looks at this stuff idk. I kinda wish there was a frame-specific section so this wouldn't be necessary and all the Limbo posts before us could be viewed as well, some of them VERY well informed, more than me, that's for sure. But then I guess the urgency of a rework wouldn't come through, so I guess we just need to spam enough that DE sighs and agrees.