Revenant is a damned mess.

[Atsia]

9 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Which coming changes? O.o

Reb said on twitter that they're looking into improving Rev, one of the things listed was checking to see if we were getting invulnerability with Reave

[BartTheChicken]

2 hours ago, Atsia said:

Reb said on twitter that they're looking into improving Rev, one of the things listed was checking to see if we were getting invulnerability with Reave

look at khora's "fixes". Shes still a S#&$ty frame. Same thing guna happen here.

[Atsia]

1 hour ago, BartTheChicken said:

look at khora's "fixes". Shes still a S#&$ty frame. Same thing guna happen here.

not really. Khora is actually in really solid place right now, even more with her new augment.

[BartTheChicken]

1 hour ago, Atsia said:

not really. Khora is actually in really solid place right now, even more with her new augment.

ah no, shes barely used, all of her abilities are worse then most other frames.

[Buzkyl]

10 minutes ago, BartTheChicken said:

ah no, shes barely used, all of her abilities are worse then most other frames.

How so?

[BartTheChicken]

2 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

How so?

her 1 is just a weak whip, easily out classed by most weapons( and costs energy to boot). Her 2 is just a sucky form of nidus' larva. Her 3 is just an upgraded pet. And her 4 is out classed by vauban, frost, gara... Therefore she sucks

[Saturmorn_Carvilli]

I mostly agree with everything SneakyErvin has said.  Revenant has quickly become my favorite to the point I kinda understand players that 'main' a frame.  Since building him, I use him for nearly everything now.  I find him to be a powerhouse despite the general consensus of him and to be very useful for nearly all missions and all enemy levels. Revenant is excellent solo but also great in most squads.

I will agree that Entrall is not  the keystone power that everyone thinks it was going to be.  However, I find it has good use at making you 'invisible' in Spy and Capture missions and makes holding an interception point dead simple.  Not really needed I know, but it is a 1 power, which I really don't expect much from.  I can also agree that his synergies, particularity the ones based off Enthrall, aren't worth concern save maybe Reave against Level 3 Sortie armor condition type enemies (very niche).  I don't mind that thralls can die quickly.  I treat it like Harrow's powers; if I can't keep them up, then they probably aren't needed anyways.  Only when I want to be kinda lazy (not Limbo lazy) do I get annoyed with I am chilling with my thralls in an interception mission and the squad comes over to kill them all.

Mesmer Skin is awesome.  I think it really is Revenant's key power.  My builds usually have 14 stacks which even being very reckless is tough for the enemy to peel through all in one go.  Most of the time, those stacks last much longer only getting used on enemies that are trying to sneak up on me or the few in a mob that stop to take a pot shot. I usually can go through most non-endless missions not needed to cast it a second time and definitely not a third. The stun gives it a little CC which, most of the time, is all the CC I want.  Most frames go overboard locking down an entire area which I don't need.  I just need a little bit to let me given each enemy their own bullet before moving to the next.  It has a long cast time sure, but also allows casting in the air which is how I countered the issue most of the time.

Reave isn't a power I use often, simply due my operator doing much of what I would want from it but better including healing with my arcanes.  However, it can be useful against very high level enemies where its life steal % does more than my weapons can if I can line the thralls up right.  This is Revenant's weakest power to me since I have other things that can do similar things, and I play with a controller making cycling back to it during Danse Macabre energy wasteful most of the time.  This doesn't really bother me since few frames have a few set of powers I regularly make use of.  At least with Revenant, his kit is setup to not really require different builds (strength, Range, Duration) to force you favor one power over the others.  I stick with a high Strength with a decent Efficiency/Duration that I am pretty happy with. 

Danse Macabre is a power I usually use in quick bursts since that is usually all that is needed and it is pretty energy hungry. At the same time, I like that it is a channeling power that lets me choose on the fly just how long I think I will need it.  It does better than I expected against armor condition 3rd Sortie enemies when boosted and fed plenty of energy.  Revenant was the frame I used in a 3rd mission Defense at Hydron map with the armor condition.  I did 70% of the damage with less than 10% of the damage taken.  And a part of the damage taken was probably when I self damaged with the Phantasma.  I think because it is so flashy and does okay damage (and sorta can afk kill) it has the big target on it and has a lot of people calling Revenant a one-trick pony.

While I am certainly not going to complain if Revenant gets some buffs to his powers, I think he is in an okay spot as is. No where close to the garbage tier he is made out to be.  For the announced tweaks, I like the squad buffs which is really the only thing I think Revenant is really mission.  However, my guess is that these buffs are going to be health and/or shields/over shields which is a nice idea, but not really useful at level I play (or even low level content).  I think some sort of damage buff would go a lot further, but I don't see it in his power theme.  I would also like Revenant to have a better effect on Sentients given the idea behind.  I mean the no proc from water in PoE is good, but I would give up his current passive for something that effective against Eidolons.  What I actually don't want to see is, with the exception of Reave, any major changes to his powers.  Even with Reave, really all I want is more of a mist form that allows me to move in more than a straight line.

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, BartTheChicken said:

her 1 is just a weak whip, easily out classed by most weapons( and costs energy to boot). Her 2 is just a sucky form of nidus' larva. Her 3 is just an upgraded pet. And her 4 is out classed by vauban, frost, gara... Therefore she sucks

But her #1 is strong and her #2 is reliable after the changes. Venari is also an increadible source of healing by just letting her roam around and do her own cat-like stuff to whatever she bumps into. Her 4 should also not be compared to Vaub, Frost or Gara since it does a completely different thing.

Her 4 is more like if Larva/Vortex had a hentai baby with Tentacle Swarm in the middle of Molecular Prime and Bastille. It is a massive CC and damage buff skill. At higher levels this becomes far more useful than a defensively built Frost that stacks range, medium strength, armor and freezing globe or a Gara trying to incorporate her CC into MV. Even Vauban is a better choice at that point because he doesnt make enemies immune to status effects with his CC, but he wont be as useful as Khora since he lacks the damage buff from his CCs.

Granted Frost can build in other ways where he ignores the drawbacks of freeze effects at higher levels. He simply needs to focus on his avalanche and max it out for armor strip, at which point he becomes a massive damage buffer to his team along with having a solid globe on the objective and some of the best CC in the game.

Edited September 11, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[BartTheChicken]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But her #1 is strong and her #2 is reliable after the changes. Venari is also an increadible source of healing by just letting her roam around and do her own cat-like stuff to whatever she bumps into. Her 4 should also not be compared to Vaub, Frost or Gara since it does a completely different thing.

Her 4 is more like if Larva/Vortex had a hentai baby with Tentacle Swarm in the middle of Molecular Prime and Bastille. It is a massive CC and damage buff skill. At higher levels this becomes far more useful than a defensively built Frost that stacks range, medium strength, armor and freezing globe or a Gara trying to incorporate her CC into MV. Even Vauban is a better choice at that point because he doesnt make enemies immune to status effects with his CC, but he wont be as useful as Khora since he lacks the damage buff from his CCs.

Granted Frost can build in other ways where he ignores the drawbacks of freeze effects at higher levels. He simply needs to focus on his avalanche and max it out for armor strip, at which point he becomes a massive damage buffer to his team along with having a solid globe on the objective and some of the best CC in the game.

still S#&$

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

On 2018-08-26 at 4:46 PM, -QUILL_PETER- said:

You don't even have Revenant yet, you have absolutely no right to complain about something you haven't even used. You're just jumping on the meta-complaint train.

"My opinion is that you're not allowed to have an opinion"

Nice. Good stuff. Oh, also...

"You're not allowed to look at YouTube videos, because you might try to form an opinion"

Also nice. You should, like, get a job criticising critics or something.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, BartTheChicken said:

still S#&$

No.

16 minutes ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

"My opinion is that you're not allowed to have an opinion"

Nice. Good stuff. Oh, also...

"You're not allowed to look at YouTube videos, because you might try to form an opinion"

Also nice. You should, like, get a job criticising critics or something.

Critics tend to have first hand experience before leaving reviews, unless they are total quacks basing their review on other reviews only.

You cant have proper input until you experience something first hand, that is simply how it is with pretty much everything.

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

unless they are total quacks basing their review on other reviews only.

Meh, not really what I was saying. But hey, not the first time I've had words shoved down my throat.

Me watch youtube. Me see gameplay. Me make opinion. Simple enough?

Also...

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You cant have proper input until you experience something first hand, that is simply how it is with pretty much everything.

This is arbitrary. Try not to take your own ideology as law.

"I don't like the color of the moon"

"You're not allowed to say that! You haven't been to the moon!"

"But I can see it..."

"NOOOOOOOO"

[SneakyErvin]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)D00M INCARNATE said:

Meh, not really what I was saying. But hey, not the first time I've had words shoved down my throat.

Me watch youtube. Me see gameplay. Me make opinion. Simple enough?

Also...

This is arbitrary. Try not to take your own ideology as law.

"I don't like the color of the moon"

"You're not allowed to say that! You haven't been to the moon!"

"But I can see it..."

"NOOOOOOOO"

Not really the same thing.

This is more like complaining about things you really dont know about the moon. Or complaining about a car/bike handling poorly even though you've never driven either. You can complain about the colors or looks of Revenant and other frames all you want because those are simple visuals, you cannot complain about mechanics you havent used.

Basing it on "cos he said so on YouTube!" isnt valid because they guy/gal playing might simply be very bad at the frame or the game in general. There are plenty of YT's out there with horrible info on things in the game. Some are /picardfacepalm worthy when you see/hear them. So whatever most say after 1 or 2 days from a release should be taken with a grain of salt, most often their salt. So those arent exactly viable videos/streams to base an untested opinion on.

I get it, they are the gods of the millenium, people love to follow and so on, but they are still terrible gamers most often.

Edited September 11, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[birdobash]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really the same thing.

This is more like complaining about things you really dont know about the moon. Or complaining about a car/bike handling poorly even though you've never driven either. You can complain about the colors or looks of Revenant and other frames all you want because those are simple visuals, you cannot complain about mechanics you havent used.

Basing it on "cos he said so on YouTube!" isnt valid because they guy/gal playing might simply be very bad at the frame or the game in general. There are plenty of YT's out there with horrible info on things in the game. Some are /picardfacepalm worthy when you see/hear them. So whatever most say after 1 or 2 days from a release should be taken with a grain of salt, most often their salt. So those arent exactly viable videos/streams to base an untested opinion on.

I get it, they are the gods of the millenium, people love to follow and so on, but they are still terrible gamers most often.

It has become general consensus among many youtubers, not just 1 or 2, that he is not fine or not up to snuff in his current position. It also has been a few weeks since his release, not 1 or 2 days.

[(XBOX)D00M INCARNATE]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really the same thing.

This is more like complaining about things you really dont know about the moon. Or complaining about a car/bike handling poorly even though you've never driven either. You can complain about the colors or looks of Revenant and other frames all you want because those are simple visuals, you cannot complain about mechanics you havent used.

Basing it on "cos he said so on YouTube!" isnt valid because they guy/gal playing might simply be very bad at the frame or the game in general. There are plenty of YT's out there with horrible info on things in the game. Some are /picardfacepalm worthy when you see/hear them. So whatever most say after 1 or 2 days from a release should be taken with a grain of salt, most often their salt. So those arent exactly viable videos/streams to base an untested opinion on.

Do you see the wall that is the op's post? Does that look like the opinion of a man who hasn't researched the freak out of this topic?

Ok, so how about...

"that car has poor handling"

"but you've never driven that car before"

"that doesn't mean I can't see everyone that drives it struggles to not crash"

"no, you don't get it, ignore what those guys are doing. The point is you can't have an opinion on it because you haven't driven it"

"But I can cleary see-"

*puts finger to lips

"No. Ssssshhhhhhh."

Idk, just seems silly to try and tell someone they can't have a view or opinion on something.

My opinion is that you can't have an opinion on whether that guy can have an opinion. There. Done.

Edited September 11, 2018 by (XB1)D00M INCARNATE
Typo

[SneakyErvin]

35 minutes ago, birdobash said:

It has become general consensus among many youtubers, not just 1 or 2, that he is not fine or not up to snuff in his current position. It also has been a few weeks since his release, not 1 or 2 days.

That just means there are many bad players with YT channels, nothing else.

Yes Rev is lacking stuff, but not the parts that many of the complaints focus on. Many of the complaints are just stupid and rooted in not understanding the kit and the strength and weaknesses.

I mean it isnt valid to go "buhuhu I never get to use the synergy from thralls cos players kill them" while completely ignoring the fact that the synergies shouldnt have been there in the first place because they serve no purpose in his kit. They are one-track-minds that are totally snowed in on the part that enthrall/thralls should be the key focus of his kit. They ignore that 2-4 with a slight backup by 1 makes Rev increadibly strong for any form of content (besides eidolon hunts). Or the people complaining about Mesmer Skin? That is a major "git gud" or "l2p" issue. It is one of the best defenses in the game. Then you have the complaints about reave, which ties into the synergy complaint aswell. "Whawha it costs too much and I need to hit thralls to make it worth that cost yaddiyadda". No, reave is cheap enough for the thing it is supposed to do, get you around during danse. You using it as a heal just means you are bad at playing Rev to begin with.

Those are some of the most common complaints which makes me doubt any of them have actually put any form of time into making a proper build. And most of those videos/opinions popped up a day or two after his release. Then shortly after that the peons and zealots started to use those same complaints before even trying the frame, because their "god" told them to.

If we get the few changes they've talked about he will be close to perfect.

edit: And as I said in another thread, this isnt uncommon behavior. This was present with each hero release in Marvel Heroes, both good and bad ones, the same thing was present with the Necro release in D3. People heading off to make a poor video showing them not knowing how to play said class/hero/frame while trying to make people think the opposite. The worst I've seen was at the Angela aswell as the Carnage release in Marvel Heroes. Two very beastly heroes with massive defense and damage output, yet so many failed at playing them and claimed they were bad. Simply because they had no clue how to build them the moment they got them.

Edited September 11, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Saturmorn_Carvilli]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That just means there are many bad players with YT channels, nothing else.

Yes Rev is lacking stuff, but not the parts that many of the complaints focus on. Many of the complaints are just stupid and rooted in not understanding the kit and the strength and weaknesses.

I mean it isnt valid to go "buhuhu I never get to use the synergy from thralls cos players kill them" while completely ignoring the fact that the synergies shouldnt have been there in the first place because they serve no purpose in his kit. They are one-track-minds that are totally snowed in on the part that enthrall/thralls should be the key focus of his kit. They ignore that 2-4 with a slight backup by 1 makes Rev increadibly strong for any form of content (besides eidolon hunts). Or the people complaining about Mesmer Skin? That is a major "git gud" or "l2p" issue. It is one of the best defenses in the game. Then you have the complaints about reave, which ties into the synergy complaint aswell. "Whawha it costs too much and I need to hit thralls to make it worth that cost yaddiyadda". No, reave is cheap enough for the thing it is supposed to do, get you around during danse. You using it as a heal just means you are bad at playing Rev to begin with.

Those are some of the most common complaints which makes me doubt any of them have actually put any form of time into making a proper build. And most of those videos/opinions popped up a day or two after his release. Then shortly after that the peons and zealots started to use those same complaints before even trying the frame, because their "god" told them to.

If we get the few changes they've talked about he will be close to perfect.

edit: And as I said in another thread, this isnt uncommon behavior. This was present with each hero release in Marvel Heroes, both good and bad ones, the same thing was present with the Necro release in D3. People heading off to make a poor video showing them not knowing how to play said class/hero/frame while trying to make people think the opposite. The worst I've seen was at the Angela aswell as the Carnage release in Marvel Heroes. Two very beastly heroes with massive defense and damage output, yet so many failed at playing them and claimed they were bad. Simply because they had no clue how to build them the moment they got them.

This has been my feeling as well.  I simply cannot understand how other players seem to be struggling with Revenant so much.  Like SneakyErvin keeps saying he could use a little polish here and there, but Revenant's kit is solid.  I feel confident I could blindly jump into any mission type solo or part of a squad at any level up to 3rd Sortie mission and do quite well save Eidolon fights (ironic about the Eidolons, I know).  And I don't mean forcing a square peg into a round hole kind of way that any frame can do any mission.  I mean that Revenant's kit has a solution to any mission challenge.  He has CC, DPS, Suriviability and Invisibility* if you know to use his powers to their full effect, and almost all of that kit scales too.  The only thing Revenant is really lacking is a real direct team buff, which it has been announced he is getting.

It constantly seems to me players are either trying to square peg his powers into a round hole based on misconceptions/expectations of his kit or that they simply are parroting another source trying to do the same thing.  These players are trying to use Revenant's kit either how they think it should be or how other frames would do it.  Which just doesn't work.  While Revenant's powers seem similar to other frames' powers they actually do work in a different way.

 

*Enthrall is great on wardens to stop them from activating the alarm or any other enemy for that matter.  Not needed, but neither is true invisibility most of the time too.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Saturmorn_Carvilli said:

These players are trying to use Revenant's kit either how they think it should be or how other frames would do it.  

Yep and the same exact thing happened after the Saryn rework. People yelled and still yell about her being weak, it all comes down to them refusing to change their builds. If they had only changed those builds to fit the change they would have seen a massive buff.

Ember is pretty much on the same level, hated due to people refusing to adapt with new builds and slightly different playstyles. She is still strong as hell, but much like Rev there are a few smaller things missing or being bloated. Like Accelerant combining with solo elements for people for a combo, which might not always be appriciated. But those are minor issues I have no real trouble living with.

I'm also utterly tired of the "But Mesa does it better" comments regarding Rev. The two shouldnt even be played in the same way. Rev is the frontline chop-chop, bang-bang kinda frame that uses his 4 when needed. Mesa lives by her 4.

[birdobash]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yep and the same exact thing happened after the Saryn rework. People yelled and still yell about her being weak, it all comes down to them refusing to change their builds. If they had only changed those builds to fit the change they would have seen a massive buff.

Ember is pretty much on the same level, hated due to people refusing to adapt with new builds and slightly different playstyles. She is still strong as hell, but much like Rev there are a few smaller things missing or being bloated. Like Accelerant combining with solo elements for people for a combo, which might not always be appriciated. But those are minor issues I have no real trouble living with.

I'm also utterly tired of the "But Mesa does it better" comments regarding Rev. The two shouldnt even be played in the same way. Rev is the frontline chop-chop, bang-bang kinda frame that uses his 4 when needed. Mesa lives by her 4.

The first iteration of the saryn rework was powerful but lacked lots of QoL, if you didn't know, the first iteration made it so recasting spores deleted all your spores, and also once your spores died out they would immediately reset to 0. It was powerful to a point but constantly reset over and over and over again.

So ofc people complained, and WITH that feedback and complaining, DE fixed her up into what she is now. If they hadn't, then she would have an instant decay to 0 on spore resets and if you accidently hit 1 again after already spreading spores, you would delete all your spores.

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, birdobash said:

The first iteration of the saryn rework was powerful but lacked lots of QoL, if you didn't know, the first iteration made it so recasting spores deleted all your spores, and also once your spores died out they would immediately reset to 0. It was powerful to a point but constantly reset over and over and over again.

So ofc people complained, and WITH that feedback and complaining, DE fixed her up into what she is now. If they hadn't, then she would have an instant decay to 0 on spore resets and if you accidently hit 1 again after already spreading spores, you would delete all your spores.

I know all that, I gave feedback on it. The point is, people still complain about iteration two Saryn and how "itz bad!". She's been out for a good while now and plenty of people still refuse to adapt their builds to the "new" Saryn and rather complain. Complaints about pointless things like spores not being able to roll on in low end content when they know full well miasma does the job at wiping low end maps.

So how can we take feedback on a new frame seriously when it comes from people who havent tried it and hasty I-was-here-first YTers who havent put any real effort into building or understanding the frame?

I'm no stellar player or theorycrafter, I'm pretty much avarage when it comes to building things and even I get Rev to work flawlessly with his current kit.