The state of end game

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

1 minute ago, LocoWithGun said:

Yet as I said less than 1% of WoW's players do Mythic Raiding. And that is about as endgame at it gets in that game. More people farm cosmetics than engage in endgame and yet that game runs just fine.

So does that mean farming cosmetics is the real endgame? Since it "keeps people grinding" as you say. In which case you can make a genuine argument that fashionframe in fact IS an endgame.

Its a fair argument, but what about the community that could do with challenging content locked behind an MR?

[Serotonone]

2 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Yet as I said less than 1% of WoW's players do Mythic Raiding. And that is about as endgame at it gets in that game. More people farm cosmetics than engage in endgame and yet that game runs just fine.

So does that mean farming cosmetics is the real endgame? Since it "keeps people grinding" as you say. In which case you can make a genuine argument that fashionframe in fact IS an endgame.

Warframe's endgame is gathering all the glyphs! now shut up and sit down!

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

Just now, Ryk_the_Wizard said:

Warframe's endgame is gathering all the glyphs! now shut up and sit down!

haahahahahahahahaha 

[Otaiken]

1 minute ago, Ryk_the_Wizard said:

Warframe's endgame is gathering all the glyphs! now shut up and sit down!

Well, if more pople are happy doing that than playing my 100k dollar shiny new super epic raid I know where my priorities lie. people say a lot of things but metrics are metrics.

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

6 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Well, if more pople are happy doing that than playing my 100k dollar shiny new super epic raid I know where my priorities lie. people say a lot of things but metrics are metrics.

Metrics of two games are not global. They also not warframes metrics either that being said.

[Serotonone]

9 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Well, if more pople are happy doing that than playing my 100k dollar shiny new super epic raid I know where my priorities lie. people say a lot of things but metrics are metrics.

Mate, best thing about warframe (which almost no one gets): It has no endgame! it will continuously evolve, bring in new stuff, tougher enemies, new shiny cosmetics, new graphic effects. You will only hit true endgame when the devs run out of ideas for new content or they move on to another game. You can play it sandbox mode (dojo building), you can play it collector mode (getting everything that can be had), you can play it fashion mode (that mag's looking mighty fine), you can play it like me, genocide mode (killing as many enemies as you can just for the sheer pleasure of killing S#&$ without affecting the real world and without consequences), the players define the "endgame" after their own limits. My endgame is finding the biggest trucker in the house and beat the living shait out of him while wiping everything in between us.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Ryk_the_Wizard

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

1 minute ago, Ryk_the_Wizard said:

Mate, best thing about warframe (which almost no one gets): It has no endgame! it will continuously evolve, bring in new stuff, tougher enemies, new shiny cosmetics, new graphic effects. You will only hit true endgame when the devs run out of ideas for new content or they move on to another game. You can play it sandbox mode (dojo building), you can play it collector mode (getting everything that can be had), you can play it fashion mode (that mag's looking mighty fine), you can play it like me, genocide mode (killing as many enemies as you can just for the sheer pleasure of killing S#&$ without affecting the real world and without consequences), the players define the "endgame" after their own limits. My endgame is finding the biggest trucker in the house and beat the living shait out of him.

hahaahaah due this comment is life. Like I said I love the game. I am just that kinda objective kinda guy, nothing sets a good objective like taking down the baddest dude in the room

[Otaiken]

7 minutes ago, Ryk_the_Wizard said:

Mate, best thing about warframe (which almost no one gets): It has no endgame! it will continuously evolve, bring in new stuff, tougher enemies, new shiny cosmetics, new graphic effects. You will only hit true endgame when the devs run out of ideas for new content or they move on to another game. You can play it sandbox mode (dojo building), you can play it collector mode (getting everything that can be had), you can play it fashion mode (that mag's looking mighty fine), you can play it like me, genocide mode (killing as many enemies as you can just for the sheer pleasure of killing S#&$ without affecting the real world and without consequences), the players define the "endgame" after their own limits. My endgame is finding the biggest trucker in the house and beat the living shait out of him.

I agree. Hence why I pointed out that OP explicitly states that WF has no "real defined endgame" and then conveniently makes up their own arbitrary definition (endurance runs) and if OP gets to do that then I also get to do that and arbitrarily define endgame as focus system or even fashionframe.

It's kinda hard to come up with a solution to a problem you can't define. So yeah, slap lvl 1000 nodes on the starchart there's your endgame. Done and done right?

The best endgame is probably the kind of content none of your players can ever reach or beat. You can always point out "Hey guys? There is is!" but since no one ever does it you can never beat it and demand more edgame after that endgame.

Edited September 3, 2018 by LocoWithGun

[Serotonone]

1 minute ago, LocoWithGun said:

I agree. Hence why I pointed out that OP explicitly states that WF has no "real defined endgame" and then conveniently makes up their own arbitrary definition (endurance runs) and if OP gets to do that then I also get to do that and arbitrarily define endgame as focus system or even fashionframe.

It's kinda hard to come up with a solution to a problem you can't define. So yeah, slap lvl 1000 nodes on the starchart there's your endgame. Done and done right?

Lvl 1000 would really tickle my inner child. If you define end game as focus farming all you have to do is wait for the next update that adds to that system, if your end game is archwing then wait for the update that adds to that system. Warframu is a bunch of systems (more to come) that will always get updated (or removed in some cases *cough* raids). Warframe has a rule: never fall in love with anything. The reason for that is that everything will eventually change. Just wait for the change to your "endgame".

[Otaiken]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)thatsmybigtoe said:

hahaahaah due this comment is life. Like I said I love the game. I am just that kinda objective kinda guy, nothing sets a good objective like taking down the baddest dude in the room

And after you beat that guy 100 times and get all your rewards is it still endgame?

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

Just now, LocoWithGun said:

And after you beat that guy 100 times and get all your rewards is it still endgame?

then we will wear all our shinies and cosmetics

[Serotonone]

Just now, LocoWithGun said:

And after you beat that guy 100 times and get all your rewards is it still endgame?

yes, until i can beat a lvl 1000 sergent ruk with an unraked lato it still is endgame

[Synpai]

1 hour ago, (PS4)thatsmybigtoe said:

This is a really articulate post, will make sure to read your end game post

Thank you! I try xD

 

1 hour ago, Ryk_the_Wizard said:

peculiar mods need their own separate slot xD just saying...

<.< you don't say... I really wanted them to be fused with dragon keys for (artificial) difficulty modification

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

To many bugs for content play by to few players.

Poor excuse to push arcanes to eidolons, because they didn't drop rewards worth going for. Just another bad solution to half baked content.

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb TrickshotMcGee:

You know you're literally just reinforcing my point, right? They're making stuff to throw into the game with no real substance for veteran players. 

Yes I know. To clarify, I'm not arguing your point. The Eidolon is, what I described as Bandaide content earlier.

As for the peculiar mods, those are, at least in my opinion, a step in the right direction. The flower one, yes, is very goofy. The big-head mod on the other hand is very well designed. The staff at DE is roughly my age and thus they knowas well as me the joy of big-head-cheats 20 to 25 years ago. Those are a callback to that time.

However, tose are not enough. DE needs more peculiars. stuff like custom muzzle flashes, bullets, weapon sounds, or a supre-gore-mod. They need to expand into non goofy territory in order to make tose mods viable customisation.

 

[NecromancerX69]

6 hours ago, (PS4)thatsmybigtoe said:

I mean lets be honest, the real end game as it stands is endurance (no offence to the fashion framers.)

[--END--Rikutatis]

6 hours ago, (PS4)thatsmybigtoe said:

Yes fortuna is coming out, yes higher end alerts are coming out, but this isnt really end game in my opinion. What happened to an entire tileset geared towards end game, what happened to atheistic items geared towards end game and maybe even mods that are challenging to get, not because of RNG but because of the content difficulty scaling. 

In my opinion its already there, with some players fighting level 1000 enemies, so why the heck arent these enemies in the game, without the 8 hour investment and some resources for finishing it? can any players share their thoughts on the matter?

Why? Because DE has shifted its focus and more or less decided what they want their "niche" and their target demographics to be. It's basically an easy mode casual power fantasy at this point. People want to press a couple buttons, wipe the entire map and feel very powerful doing so. They don't want endgame challenges or anything that requires coordination or communication. Everything is solo friendly, failure proof, and accessible to new players. 

DE is either out of touch with the combat and build mechanics of their own game if they think lvl 80-100 is the ideal challenge level for "endgame" maxed out builds, or consciously making a decision to keep the gap between "endgame"/hardcore and noob/casual as narrow as possible to avoid pissing off anyone and to keep everything accessible to everyone. The end result is that those looking for a challenge or engaging content don't stick around, and it only gets worse as stuff like void keys first and trials recently get removed from the game. But hey, the game is more succesful now than it has ever been before, so their plan of action clearly works out from a financial standpoint, the game can basically keep on living from a constant stream of new players and the retention of the more casual minded that just care about the power fantasy. So if you want a challenge, better start looking for a new game. 

 

5 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Fortuna will be make or break for signaling whether DE envisions retaining advanced players. If it is a POE rehash that tries to include players of all levels, it will be obvious that there will never be any kind of meaningful "endgame" in WF, and that they'd just as soon vet players move on once the game is mastered.

You should give up already, save yourself the trouble of waiting a few more months. Fortuna will just be PoE 2.0, if you like the eidolons, you'll have the spider boss, that's as endgame as it'll get with DE. Other than that it'll jjust be another low level grindfest. 

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

14 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Yes I know. To clarify, I'm not arguing your point. The Eidolon is, what I described as Bandaide content earlier.

As for the peculiar mods, those are, at least in my opinion, a step in the right direction. The flower one, yes, is very goofy. The big-head mod on the other hand is very well designed. The staff at DE is roughly my age and thus they knowas well as me the joy of big-head-cheats 20 to 25 years ago. Those are a callback to that time.

However, tose are not enough. DE needs more peculiars. stuff like custom muzzle flashes, bullets, weapon sounds, or a supre-gore-mod. They need to expand into non goofy territory in order to make tose mods viable customisation.

 

Yeah I agree entirely, they can move those away from goofy, give them their own slot and then you have a mod that can be very unique to your character

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

10 hours ago, NecromancerX69 said:

This meme was life

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

10 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Why? Because DE has shifted its focus and more or less decided what they want their "niche" and their target demographics to be. It's basically an easy mode casual power fantasy at this point. People want to press a couple buttons, wipe the entire map and feel very powerful doing so. They don't want endgame challenges or anything that requires coordination or communication. Everything is solo friendly, failure proof, and accessible to new players. 

DE is either out of touch with the combat and build mechanics of their own game if they think lvl 80-100 is the ideal challenge level for "endgame" maxed out builds, or consciously making a decision to keep the gap between "endgame"/hardcore and noob/casual as narrow as possible to avoid pissing off anyone and to keep everything accessible to everyone. The end result is that those looking for a challenge or engaging content don't stick around, and it only gets worse as stuff like void keys first and trials recently get removed from the game. But hey, the game is more succesful now than it has ever been before, so their plan of action clearly works out from a financial standpoint, the game can basically keep on living from a constant stream of new players and the retention of the more casual minded that just care about the power fantasy. So if you want a challenge, better start looking for a new game. 

 

You should give up already, save yourself the trouble of waiting a few more months. Fortuna will just be PoE 2.0, if you like the eidolons, you'll have the spider boss, that's as endgame as it'll get with DE. Other than that it'll jjust be another low level grindfest. 

yeah I get your point here, but I also look at business in the sense that its ever evolving and as a new customer, becomes a regular, you have to as a business find a way to engage that loyal customer to keep the core of your sales moving. I think that this is the situation at hand, maybe they grappling with the problem of it not being accessible and making it more so. The problem is the process of this is not rewarding end game users "regulars."

[Walkampf]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (PS4)thatsmybigtoe:

Yeah I agree entirely, they can move those away from goofy, give them their own slot and then you have a mod that can be very unique to your character 

No! Don't give them their own slot, this defeats the very purpose of the peculiar mods.

They are intended that players sacrifice firepower for style. This in turn increases the difficulty. It allows players to configure their own difficulty. Running a full mod set is basically playing other games on "easy" setting.

As I said earlier, DE can't simply increase enemy levels since there is so much variety in abilities and weapons, there will alwas be a way to cheese content.

What DE tried to do with peculiar mods is giving players a reason to stop simply beating the game by having to much firepower.

Scott has been saying for years, that Warframe supposed to be a game about choice.

Right now "veterans" choose to steamroll content with godtier rivens and prime mods.

What high end players need to realise that sometimes, less is more. In Warframes case, less strong mods are more fun.

[(PSN)thatsmybigtoe]

8 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

No! Don't give them their own slot, this defeats the very purpose of the peculiar mods.

They are intended that players sacrifice firepower for style. This in turn increases the difficulty. It allows players to configure their own difficulty. Running a full mod set is basically playing other games on "easy" setting.

As I said earlier, DE can't simply increase enemy levels since there is so much variety in abilities and weapons, there will alwas be a way to cheese content.

What DE tried to do with peculiar mods is giving players a reason to stop simply beating the game by having to much firepower.

Scott has been saying for years, that Warframe supposed to be a game about choice.

Right now "veterans" choose to steamroll content with godtier rivens and prime mods.

What high end players need to realise that sometimes, less is more. In Warframes case, less strong mods are more fun.

Its an interesting take on it, definitely a plausible opinion

[Teridax68]

There are essentially two forms of end game right now in Warframe, but both have their issues: the first, tridolon runs, have pretty much replaced Trials, and while the boss rush element to them definitely makes for fun missions, even as one repeats them over and over, the content they provide is ultimately finite, as the player will eventually fill out their collection of arcanes, or even just the arcanes they cared about. Unless the player chooses to continue farming arcanes for trading purposes, that well of content will eventually dry up.

The second form of end game, which is much older, is endurance running, but that kind of play has suffered immensely over time: static, rotation-based rewards means there is no incentive for players to go past the first rotation C, as rinsing and repeating takes just as much time and makes things easier. For those who legitimately want to do an endurance run just to deal with difficult content, and are geared for it, the first hour or so is going to be immensely boring, because enemies then will be pushovers. Effectively, endless missions have become anything but, as there is no real reason to try to last as long as possible.

Personally, I don't think either of these features are truly capable of forming the entirety of Warframe's end game, and I think we need another system on top of this. Personally, what I'd like to see is a greater focus on the in-game world and letting players make an impact on it. Stuff like relays getting destroyed and rebuilt is a start, and overall I'd like to see genuine forces at play that are capable of influencing the Origin System (and maybe even beyond), with our own actions making an impact on this. I'd like alerts to truly make a difference on the Origin System, and have real consequences if players succeed, fail, or do not participate. Once this dynamic in-game world is fleshed out, players across all mastery ranks would always be able to participate in something fresh, and make an impact with their own actions. This, I think, could be the broadest form of end game, as it'd be infinitely replayable.

In addition to this, though, I think DE could make some massive improvements to endless missions with the right, targeted changes. For example, adding a rotation cycle multiplier, so that players get multiple rewards from the same rotation if they remain in a mission after the first AABC cycle, could incentivize players to stay in a mission for longer, with a proportionate reward that wouldn't make staying longer in those missions mandatory (e.g. the first AABC cycle could provide one reward per rotation, the second could provide two, the third three, and so on). DE has already done some work to enable some high-level mission types that start the player off at a decent difficulty level, and I feel it might help to tie all of these different offshoots into a specific system, e.g. an "elite" mode per star chart node that unlocks upon beating it and starts at level 100, and could accommodate whichever other modifiers are present, such as kuva or nightmare modes. As a side note, and while this may fall more into the topic of grind and loot, I believe at this point there's no real point in doubling the A rotation in endless missions, and setting the base rotation duration to 15 minutes I think would sit well with most players.

[ikkabotz]

On 2018-09-03 at 8:41 AM, Ryk_the_Wizard said:

[Suggestion] for end game, once a planet is fully completed (or the whole system) we get the sortie lvl variant of the planet and the option to choose between low lvl and high lvl variants (kinda like borderlands 2 system). this would make the game at the very least more enjoyable for people that want to meet sortie lvl mobs outside of sorties. Or the option to choose to get x4 spawns while in solo mode, that would also be a great idea for them vets that just want to bring forth destruction and genocide upon them twinkling greneers.

Something like this has been suggested for months and months, I'm talking years. Unfortunately it hasn't happened. 

[Zi-Sui]

I think it was a good move of DE to introduce ESO. Even though it's very repetitive and easily cheesed for hours on end just like survival, it's different, with different rewards that don't even force you to grind it much unless you can't buy the weapons with platinum. To be able to buy the stuff from players is great, DE has really catered us there and made financial gain from it. You can just skip the content you dont like or can't do, and everybody can leech tridolon and ESO.

Just anybody isn't gonna be able to leech elite alerts though unless one player surviving to exit gives rewards to everybody.

I'm all for DE making more challenging stuff instead of endurance runs where everything is the same except being a bullet-sponge that oneshots you. Just rather it be something you can do without a full squad since it's tough to find 3 other competent AND geared players these days. If you disagree you should read some topics about eidolon hunts in these forums.