Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[ZodiacShinryu]

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎26 at 8:57 AM, -Signs- said:

The toxin procs weren't broken by any means. It just spreads the toxin proc from your weapons. Which against high armor, doesn't actually do much damage. Also, the setup was much more difficult without the current toxic lash. <snip>

I don't understand people that make armor scaling arguments with all the ways you can remove armor. In the ideal gear situation (veteran goals), the point you run into the 'armor' problem should mean that you already had planned for the 'armor' problem. The 'meta' solution is just bring CP then you don't ever have to deal with armor. But there are pets, or loading other weapons with corrosive, or god forbid we actually treat it like a coop game and have an ally with armor strip capabilities.

Toxic Lash honestly wouldn't help toxin burst spread of Saryn 2.0 because of how Spores generally played out and how Lash applies toxin. There were a lot of intricacies, inconsistencies and limitations of how toxin spread actually worked that even the OP didn't list out (part of the overall reason Saryn got a rework to make her streamlined and simple). With that said, theoretically Saryn 2.0 had the higher damage potentials and needed little time to do it in comparison to Saryn 3.0. Spores themselves in 2.0 also self limited her by lowering the targets maximum health and therefor lowering the maximum toxin to spread. Coupled to the fact Lash applies it's damage separately from the actual weapon strike, you still get your best toxin from your weapon directly and not Lash. The only time it would help to spread toxin would be before you used Spores which because Spores use to be rampant with refreshing duration it was almost impossible.

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎26 at 4:14 PM, -Signs- said:

I'm going to the honest. Saryn 2.0 can only "one shot" the map until about level 60 with just molt + spores. The base damage + viral proc aren't enough.

Spore damage scales quicker than enemies until you are around 2h30 in MoT. Meaning you always lose spore damage from enemies dying too quickly.

Spore Molt cheese was crap in the first place and completely unnecessary because you couldn't ever spread toxin using that method. But yes, it was an easy wipe if you specifically didn't need the toxin and the more enemies there were the stronger (by shear number of explosions) Spores was at base. However with toxin burst (which also increased the burst damage of Spores in bonus to spreading the toxin) you could insta wipe maps at any time and level by setting up the spread correctly. In my own experience I could do it to Sortie 3 enemies armor or not. No waiting and no fear of losing stacks.

On ‎2018‎-‎08‎-‎26 at 4:15 PM, -Signs- said:

Octavia has duration meaning you need to come back every 30 seconds or so. Saryn I can't literally infect someone and go AFK for a day and it will still be dealing damage.

You technically can't infect someone then go afk even after a spread (with an organized team it could be possible but that is unrealistic and somewhat dangerous; you basically have to let that enemy do whatever it wants so they can spread for you). In the highly specific (and non-realistic) example of infecting an engine max Nox and spreading then going afk those enemies are the only enemies that will die. Spores no longer can spread itself. Provided Spores can't kill a single enemy in 15min you will be auto ejected from the mission on one end with in every other case you can't complete the objective (even exterminate) because you'll not cover every enemy in that single moment for the whole duration of the mission on the other. To make it more realistic, if you say infect a Level 100 enemy and even if the spread was global and you went afk you would lose the mission (objective or ejected) because those enemies alone would die and the moment another enemy spawned they would have free range until you came back.

[JalakBali]

Saryn's 1 is not oneshotting enemies. It's a very active ability that you need to manage to do real damage after a while. It's a very dynamic game play, much like Nidus.

 

The actual problem is her 4. Which has been made as powerful as it was ever been, has no line of sight, huge range and could wipe out low level enemies with ease. And it's a completely skill-less ability, you just need to press a button. My suggestion is not to make it less powerful, but not as brainless. That could be done by making its damage very low, except when the enemies are affected by Spores. Basically, nerf the damage, but give it the same damage it has now only to Spore-d enemies. This makes the game style of only using her 4 rather useless for damage but still useful for the Corrosive effect, while still keeping the ability powerful for players who actively use Spore.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2018-08-18 at 11:06 PM, Kraythax said:

Before the rework she was weak

What? Hahahaha dude this rework has nerfed her so much already, no need for more. No I'm not talking about the weak molt+spore combo that lazy players used, I'm talking about the toxin carry mechanic. It was her strongest playstyle, and yet it was not overpowered because its kill rate was moderate and scaled with your weapon and by extension, enemy health (enemy has to have enough health for the spore to spread the toxin tick). It was an ingenious ability feature, that I'm sure wasn't expected by DE Pablo. It's honestly what I miss most from the ability. This whole tick escalation was a bad idea from the start and I called it.

She doesn't need a nerf, she needs a mechanic alternative, something that that supplement the existing mechanic, which I think toxin carry would fit right in for. As for the escalating ticks, sure lower it, but don't leave it at that. I get the whole "WoF replacement" argument because I see it all the time, so the mechanics need a change, but the performance is fine. If a player wants those results, he should be able to earn them, but don't give it out for a half baked build and lazy performance.

Edited August 30, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

On August 17, 2018 at 9:23 PM, VPrime96 said:

I forgot about one thing about Saryn and that is, is there a Non - Invisible Damage frame that can do this just as easily as Saryn?:

This is with no Augments in Saryn.

Try that in void survival and you'll die. 

Spore requires alot of infected enemies. That tiny map nothing. I can do the same with rhino stomp. My mirage and torid is op to you then. I don't have a riven for it. 

No mod show case. You could be lying easy. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by (PS4)Captain_Bonecold

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

On August 28, 2018 at 2:13 AM, JalakBali said:

Saryn's 1 is not oneshotting enemies. It's a very active ability that you need to manage to do real damage after a while. It's a very dynamic game play, much like Nidus.

 

The actual problem is her 4. Which has been made as powerful as it was ever been, has no line of sight, huge range and could wipe out low level enemies with ease. And it's a completely skill-less ability, you just need to press a button. My suggestion is not to make it less powerful, but not as brainless. That could be done by making its damage very low, except when the enemies are affected by Spores. Basically, nerf the damage, but give it the same damage it has now only to Spore-d enemies. This makes the game style of only using her 4 rather useless for damage but still useful for the Corrosive effect, while still keeping the ability powerful for players who actively use Spore.

You forget ability 4 cost. Since he/she has no energy siphon on Saryn.  I notice the youtube video has regen in aura. 

[schilds]

Here is how we know Saryn is out of kilter with every other frame: whenever a discussion about the capabilities of a frame comes up, Saryn is the inevitable comparison. Saryn's capabilities are now commonly used to justify proposed changes to other frames.

[Zi-Sui]

Has anyone thought of the Saryns who have eidolon lens in them for focus? That lens goes to waste if you nerf Saryn too much, which DE might not do if you look at how they handled Chroma. They might though, if you look at how they handled Ember. I mean I dont mind, there's still Volt, Equinox and the old-fashioned way with Vazarin affinity range boost for focus farm if you nerf Saryn, so a lot of players are just going to adapt to the nerf and get the lens on their Volt or Equinox, probably Volt. After Saryn nerf focus farm would take at least hour a day instead of half hours it takes now on good days, though. Unless you maybe go ESO with a good squad.

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

7 minutes ago, schilds said:

Here is how we know Saryn is out of kilter with every other frame: whenever a discussion about the capabilities of a frame comes up, Saryn is the inevitable comparison. Saryn's capabilities are now commonly used to justify proposed changes to other frames.

My Mirage and torid must be god mode then? 

[schilds]

My Mirage and torid must be god mode then? 

I've not seen anyone mention your mirage and torid. Not even once. Well, not until now.

Edited September 1, 2018 by schilds

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

49 minutes ago, schilds said:

I've not seen anyone mention your mirage and torid. Not even once. Well, not until now.

(10000x.20)= 2000x4= 8000 more damage from Mirage clones I rounded down. That viral damage.  It 2000 per clone shoot. That torid heavy max and forma. Without a riven mod.  To get to high damage you need good max out mods. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by (PS4)Captain_Bonecold

[(PSN)Captain_Bonecold]

Saryn not OP. I'm just skilled. My other warframes agree. I have all prime warframes. Well all there parts. So tell me. I turn a defeated to victory with loki prime.  Loki P 40 waves in ODS.  Frost P before passives 65 waves in ODS and also no power stats mods.

Edited September 1, 2018 by (PS4)Captain_Bonecold

[ArchXDiablo]

Well I must say, after getting Saryn Prime myself, my opinion has changed. She requires activity, movement, micro-management. Unlike other frames, I can't jump in sortie and solo them all with ease like I would with Limbo, Octavia, Nidus, etc. She has no invisibility nor invincibility options, either move or die.She's not as much of a cheese frame as I heard. Hell, survival with Octavia was cheese. Stand there invisible throw mallet and watch everything just die and scale properly.

[Zi-Sui]

28 minutes ago, ArchXDiablo said:

Well I must say, after getting Saryn Prime myself, my opinion has changed. She requires activity, movement, micro-management. Unlike other frames, I can't jump in sortie and solo them all with ease like I would with Limbo, Octavia, Nidus, etc. She has no invisibility nor invincibility options, either move or die.She's not as much of a cheese frame as I heard. Hell, survival with Octavia was cheese. Stand there invisible throw mallet and watch everything just die and scale properly.

I can confirm that with my experience of Saryn and as a Trinity who has watched over many Saryns in SO and ESO. They don't usually die when I have the blessing buff on them, some rare times they do, but when I'm using Saryn even with 2nd ability I start dying at SO zone 4-6 unless there's a Trinity or Oberon. Using Vazarin fixes that a little but that means I don't get energy from Zenurik. I know other Saryns are better at surviving than me but that doesn't invalidate the point. Point is Saryn can't wipe the map all the time without Trinity or pizzas. Even with efficiency build and Zenurik you can't spam 4 so much others wouldn't have anything to do and spores alone never kill everything fast.

It's Trinity that gives Saryn, Volt and Equinox survivability and energy and makes them both easy to play and more powerful.

Edit: Oh yeah, arcane energize, especially two of them, can make Saryn more independent, as well as magus elevate. Those things cost though, a lot of hydrolyst caps or 6k platinum for 2, elevates 60 teralyst caps or 1k platinum for two. So to make Saryn really powerful you need to pay a price, and those things would be useful on other frames too.

Edited September 1, 2018 by BoarWarrior

[ArchXDiablo]

5 minutes ago, BoarWarrior said:

I can confirm that with my experience of Saryn and as a Trinity who has watched over many Saryns in SO and ESO. They don't usually die when I have the blessing buff on them, some rare times they do, but when I'm using Saryn even with 2nd ability I start dying at SO zone 4-6 unless there's a Trinity or Oberon. Using Vazarin fixes that a little but that means I don't get energy from Zenurik. I know other Saryns are better at surviving than me but that doesn't invalidate the point. Point is Saryn can't wipe the map all the time without Trinity or pizzas. Even with efficiency build and Zenurik you can't spam 4 so much others wouldn't have anything to do and spores alone never kill everything fast.

It's Trinity that gives Saryn, Volt and Equinox survivability and energy and makes them both easy to play and more powerful.

I've seen health leech melee builds that are quite tanky, but yes the point remains, you have to actively move and attack, not sit back and watch like other frames. 

[GPrime96]

3 minutes ago, BoarWarrior said:

I can confirm that with my experience of Saryn and as a Trinity who has watched over many Saryns in SO and ESO. They don't usually die when I have the blessing buff on them, some rare times they do, but when I'm using Saryn even with 2nd ability I start dying at SO zone 4-6 unless there's a Trinity or Oberon. Using Vazarin fixes that a little but that means I don't get energy from Zenurik. I know other Saryns are better at surviving than me but that doesn't invalidate the point. Point is Saryn can't wipe the map all the time without Trinity or pizzas. Even with efficiency build and Zenurik you can't spam 4 so much others wouldn't have anything to do and spores alone never kill everything fast.

This mod + Vitality + Steel Fiber + Hunter Adrenaline helps me Solo ESO up to Zone 8, And Ani, Void at lvl 200+ while playing her as a Melee Frame with my Hybrid built Atterax. But Saryn is still Squishy with that mod if not Careful or not using a Ancient Healer Specter.

[Zi-Sui]

4 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

This mod + Vitality + Steel Fiber + Hunter Adrenaline helps me Solo ESO up to Zone 8, And Ani, Void at lvl 200+ while playing her as a Melee Frame with my Hybrid built Atterax. But Saryn is still Squishy with that mod if not Careful or not using a Ancient Healer Specter.

Ahh so that's how you do it, thanks for the tip! Seems to be a less optimal build for E/SO focus farm though, except that you're soloing it so yeah.

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, BoarWarrior said:

Ahh so that's how you do it, thanks for the tip! Seems to be a less optimal build for E/SO focus farm though, except that you're soloing it so yeah.

I use Vitality and Steel Fiber in my Saryn Prime because she can have 925 Health and 630+ Armor. Valkyr have 600 armor at base and 740 health with just Vitality.

[felixsylvaris]

• Onslaught is very Saryn friendly. Small area, regular spawns.
• ESO has a gift for Saryn with spores damage carrying over, which is not needed but it is.
• Saryn doesnt sucks. Which is quite important since there is a lot of frame who are good at nothing, or there is something wrong with them. And having frame which does something, already in Prime is good reason to play it.
• She is DPS/DOT frame which is good in team composition, especially if someone else could provide heal, energy, cc, buffs, debuffs.

If they nerf Saryn there will be more: Volts, Excaliburs, Mesa, Equinox. Would that make game any better?

It is possible to:

• Remove  initial decay 20%, only first tick of 10%*AD. It is hard to care about decay if it happens so fast.
• Cap max damage on spore to 500*AP (100k is a bit crazy number). Embers Fireblast deals 225 /sec, and Fireblast is garbage, so 500dmg /sec is probably safe and fair. Embers WoF deals 800dmg/sec but it is sustain abilitty, and only 5 targets, and it sucks.
• Miasma could trade tick damage (300->200) for duration (6s->9s), even set the cost for 100e (less spammy). So fellow players can get the kill count, which is what is all about.
• Toxic Lash damage buff rise to 50%/100%, so it swich hitting power from spores to lash.

Big reworks are not needed, and probably will destroy what is not broken.

Edited September 2, 2018 by felixsylvaris
best saryn suggestions

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb felixsylvaris:

If they nerf Saryn there will be more: Volts, Excaliburs, Mesa, Equinox. Would that make game any better?

Probably, because then they'd be the next ones to be looked at eventually.

And even if not it'd at least make for some more variety in ESO instantly, which would be a good start. Volt at least can't spam his 4 (which was overbuffed imo) like Saryn spores because of ESO cooldown, Mesa needs LOS and Equinox some time to build up damage. Excal doesn't really fit into the list to begin with.

Oh and...

vor 14 Minuten schrieb felixsylvaris:

Saryn doesnt sucks. Which is quite important since there is a lot of frame who are good at nothing, or there is something wrong with them. And having frame which does something, already in Prime is good reason to play it.

It's funny how frames aren't considered viable if they don't have a specific win button for certain mission types. With over 30 frames now: How would that even be possible? I wish chosing frames was more about flavour and personal preference rather than pure efficiency.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[Buttaface]

2 hours ago, felixsylvaris said:

If they nerf Saryn there will be more: Volts, Excaliburs, Mesa, Equinox. Would that make game any better?

They need to nerf down all that cheeze too. Rolling back the Saryn OP overbuff should be just the starting point. Then they need to address Peacemaker, Maim, Discharge, and lots of other single press radial AOE BS if this game is ever to be other than mediocre.

[felixsylvaris]

Yes, more nerf, nerf Mesa, Excalibur, Rhino, Loki, Nekros, Ember... all frames with usage above 100%/number of frames should be smashed with nerf hammer. It is the only way to make a fun game. I already feel that as soon as you nerf Ivara i am going to farm Atlas, and play him. It is totally related.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb felixsylvaris:

all frames with usage above 100%/number of frames should be smashed with nerf hammer.

Wut?

vor 8 Minuten schrieb felixsylvaris:

I already feel that as soon as you nerf Ivara i am going to farm Atlas, and play him.

You should deffo try him out regardless, he's way underrated imo!

[schilds]

I used Saryn in ESO before her change, when spores were viral and miasma was corrosive. She already out damaged and out killed any other frame in ESO if you built her right. Few people played her because her mechanics were confusing and they thought she was crap. She was then buffed. I've stopped playing her because she became too boring and you can't play an ESO match without running into another Saryn (or even a full squad of Saryns). It's true she is particularly well matched to ESO due to the small map size and high density and spawn rate of enemies. Yes, she has to play actively to get kills, that part of her change is good, so how did she become boring? She just does way too much damage to every enemy across the entire map with one cast of spore. It spreads to every enemy, strips all armour and has damage that scales. You don't even have to use any other abilities, they're just icing on the cake.

[ZodiacShinryu]

3 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

It's funny how frames aren't considered viable if they don't have a specific win button for certain mission types. With over 30 frames now: How would that even be possible? I wish chosing frames was more about flavour and personal preference rather than pure efficiency.

What is actually funny is people don't understand how tools work. Warframes ARE tools. You use the correct tools for the correct task to make things easier (in contrast you can use the incorrect tools to add a bit a difficulty, as you please). With all the complaining about RNG because of the perceived compulsion of a horde looter "collect everything" mentalities, you'd think that people would be more open to such a concept. What is the point of collecting everything if you don't plan on actually using it? Having everything doesn't actually provide you any benefit if you don't intend to use it. MR doesn't matter that much (at this time; likely always will be intentionally lower relevant content caps for casual play) and you'll reach max cap eventually just playing with things you actually like.. You are free to use things as you want and by extension so is everyone else. Making your favorite frame the best at every conceivable content is just inane and if you are going to join public you don't have the grounds to dictate how others wish to tackle content.

Now Warframes are about flavor and personal preference right now! The only way to emphasis that even more is by making every frame the same... same power ranges, same power effects, same damage just with different colors. They aren't tools anymore, they are skins.

[Sacharissa]

I don't mind having Saryn wiping the map clean without effort. High leveled enemies certainly won't mind wiping me off the game in split second otherwise.

I do however mind when I am struggling to find enemy to put Energy Leech on as I love playing Trinity the most.
My finger tire from spamming one key so much, hoping that I'd land that one skill on something before that something poofs into affinity and loot. 😂