Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[(XBOX)LoneDionysius]

On 2018-09-05 at 9:14 PM, Kraythax said:

So you go into elite onslaught to farm a bit of focus, maybe level up a weapon and there is one critical problem. Saryn. Every Saryn player I have met acts selfish and instead of going in solo if they want to solo the map, they go in with a full team of 4, take 90% or more of the damage and you get nothing. And forget leaving if there is a Saryn in party, I tried that and 12 games in a row I left,  until I said "to heck with it and logged off." I am a paying customer and don't pay to be bored. SARYN IS STUPIDLY unbalanced. She makes the old "Entire map on fire" Ember look like a minor player.  Either NERF SARYN hard .. or at least enable meditate in ESO so that I can just sit there while Saryn kills everything. 

Just bought more plat before I logged on today, but now I feel stupid. I think time to put this game down a while. 

This IS going to sound snarky but if you don't like playing with Saryn(s) then quite frankly that's a personal problem -your personal problem. I can't believe you have the audacity to come up on the forum and essentially whine about something that is more or less your choice. If you don't like playing with nuke build Saryns id strongly suggest you either quit once you see one, join the pack or join with friends. 
 

I'm a Saryn player myself with a 40% power strength, dura/range build. Though I'm not as greedy as others. Also the point(s) of Elite Sanctuary onslaught is really to post times up on the boards not really to focus farm, kill quickly to keep up affinity and pass on to the next wave. If you want to focus farm I strongly suggest playing with friends that may bend a bit because realistically in Onslaught we just want to get in, get out and go on with our lives especially with randoms. 
 

In closing, you don't get to play with randoms and then complain about what happens in your game due to you not being friendly and playing with those you know or are like minded. You play with unknowns and you'll get unknown variables.

[Buttaface]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)LoneDionysius said:

This IS going to sound snarky but if you don't like playing with Saryn(s) then quite frankly that's a personal problem -your personal problem.

No, it just sounds dumb. Complaining about elements that make a game not fun to play is an opinion that many agree with. If you don't, that's fine, but it's the furthest thing from a "personal problem," agree or not.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Buttaface

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)LoneDionysius said:

You play with unknowns and you'll get unknown variables.

I often wonder why this is such a hard concept for some people to grasp.  

[Buttaface]

3 hours ago, Reifnir said:

You'd have to nerf every single frame with any kind of AoE abilities then. Then you'd have to remake Sanctuary Onslaught as a mode from scratch.

No, you'd have to do -none- of those things. There are about 10 usual suspect radial AOE skills that need damage caps, range caps, target caps, falloff, etc. nerfs, and that Onslaught would have to be "redesigned" is absurd exaggeration. That defense would have to be redesigned is more of the same. Abusive, mindless map clear AOE spam is not needed to do any current content in the game.

[(XBOX)LoneDionysius]

4 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

No, it just sounds dumb. Complaining about elements that make a game not fun to play is an opinion that many agree with. If you don't, that's fine, but it's the furthest thing from a "personal problem" agree or not.

No, see it is indeed a personal problem if the OP complains about a non issue that's completely avoidable. If you don't like the options presented then why stay?  Why is it so difficult to just leave a match or communicate what you're trying to accomplish with the team? Most posts up here are just b*tching and complaining about something an OP could fix themselves or outright avoid. 

[Buttaface]

Just now, (XB1)LoneDionysius said:

No, see it is indeed a personal problem if the OP complains about a non issue that's completely avoidable. If you don't like the options presented then why stay?  Why is it so difficult to just leave a match or communicate what you're trying to accomplish with the team? Most posts up here are just b*tching and complaining about something an OP could fix themselves or outright avoid. 

Many players agree that Saryn was overbuffed, and the above is just compounding the fallacious "personal problem" rathole. Suggesting on a feedback forum that players have to simply accept things they don't like or not play, that they have a "personal problem," instead of simply disagreeing with the feedback/opinion is disingenuous. Doesn't matter what the feedback in question is, it's that simple. If you have an opinion on the topic backed by some kind of facts or reason, no problem, but the above is not that.

[miomima]

3 минуты назад, (XB1)LoneDionysius сказал:

No, see it is indeed a personal problem if the OP complains about a non issue that's completely avoidable. If you don't like the options presented then why stay?  Why is it so difficult to just leave a match or communicate what you're trying to accomplish with the team? Most posts up here are just b*tching and complaining about something an OP could fix themselves or outright avoid. 

Things is not about "You can avoid and dont use urself" but about how large this gasp between frames, and how low effort needed to gain succes with one frame when for other frame this is realy challenging. (i dont even want to talk about how people actualy tell to throw away matchmaking in online game, a tool given by developers to see new people, play with new people etc.) And can give another horde slaying coop game as example - Killing Floor, there is no perfect balance between classes, but with any class you need aim, precission, quick reactions, teamplay, map awarnes, and without them even on most broken class you probbly gona fail and fail your teamates.

[Kraythax]

3 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Many players agree that Saryn was overbuffed, and the above is just compounding the fallacious "personal problem" rathole. Suggesting on a feedback forum that players have to simply accept things they don't like or not play, that they have a "personal problem," instead of simply disagreeing with the feedback/opinion is disingenuous. Doesn't matter what the feedback in question is, it's that simple. If you have an opinion on the topic backed by some kind of facts or reason, no problem, but the above is not that.

Bravo. Applause. I have noticed most of the detractors of the OP are not attacking the points but rather me personally. *shrug*

[(XBOX)LoneDionysius]

2 minutes ago, miomima said:

Things is not about "You can avoid and dont use urself" but about how large this gasp between frames, and how low effort needed to gain succes with one frame when for other frame this is realy challenging. (i dont even want to talk about how people actualy tell to throw away matchmaking in online game, a tool given by developers to see new people, play with new people etc.) And can give another horde slaying coop game as example - Killing Floor, there is no perfect balance between classes, but with any class you need aim, precission, quick reactions, teamplay, map awarnes, and without them even on most broken class you probbly gona fail and fail your teamates.

If something isn't working to specifications we as people have the power to sometimes change our activities,  but not always anothers actions.

[felixsylvaris]

The issue with 100k spore damage is not that OMG Saryns going to deal that much.

The problem is that you can reach 3k spore with any possitive value of abillity power. Could be 100% or just 60% or more than 100% (for madmen). So you can reach very high damage aura without investment. There is some justification that damage need warmup, or that you need to spread spores, sometimes recast. Nevertheless it is very generous. And it could exceed 3k.

And the solution would be introducing some sane max spore damage, in the same way as most Frames has some sane damage on their abillities.

Like Banshee deals 200 Blast on her drop the bass ult, however it is 200 from time 0, so it is a bit different.

There is a challenge in finding golden value which would be balanced and everything. Note that we have 3 spores. and there is wormup timer.

Imagine 200 Corrosive *3 spores *200% AP = 1200 Corrosive. You can go futher up to 400% but that means no Overextend (and no cunning drift, and power rising aura) so 400% AP is probably not common.

3k spores is something which happens on higher  levels and you put minimal effort into spreading the disease (or have teammate doing it for you). So nerf from 3k to 1,2k is significant.

Loss in spores damage could be balanced with toxic lash damage buff.

Does Saryn deserve it? (this exacly nerf) Well, inifnite damage is always problematic, and setting some bar, this is your max aura damage and you cant scale to infinity is ok, most frames work that way.

Most important it is better change than all NERFHERHARDBLOOD ideas.

Edited September 7, 2018 by felixsylvaris

[Zanchak]

To be entirely honest, both forms of sanctuary are mind-numbingly boring anyway so I don't really mind if people bring nukes to get through faster. I usually volt so I get a fair amount of focus and such regardless. I don't think changing saryn would make any difference whatsoever insofar as making ESO less boring though.

[miomima]

13 минут назад, felixsylvaris сказал:

The issue with 100k spore damage is not that OMG Saryns going to deal that much.

The problem is that you can reach 3k spore with any possitive value of abillity power. Could be 100% or just 60% or more than 100% (for madmen). So you can reach very high damage aura without investment. There is some justification that damage need warmup, or that you need to spread spores, sometimes recast. Nevertheless it is very generous. And it could exceed 3k.

And the solution would be introducing some sane max spore damage, in the same way as most Frames has some sane damage on their abillities.

Like Banshee deals 200 Blast on her drop the bass ult, however it is 200 from time 0, so it is a bit different.

There is a challenge in finding golden value which would be balanced and everything. Note that we have 3 spores. and there is wormup timer.

Imagine 200 Corrosive *3 spores *200% AP = 1200 Corrosive. You can go futher up to 400% but that means no Overextend (and no cunning drift, and power rising aura) so 400% AP is probably not common.

3k spores is something which happens if you are playing on any serious level and put minimal effort into spreading the disease (or have teammate doing it for you). So nerf from 3k to 1,2k is significant.

Loss in spores damage could be balanced with toxic lash damage buff.

Does Saryn deserve it? (this exacly nerf) Well, inifnite damage is always problematic, and setting some bar, this is your max aura damage and you cant scale to infinity is ok, most frames work that way.

Most important it is better change than all NERFHERHARDBLOOD ideas.

i litteraly dont care how big her damage, it can be 99999999999999999999999 per tick at max, i care about delivery, right now you need to cast spore once, use ur third ability and shoot once, that all, you done, spores everywhere. No need in aim, timings, vission etc. And how i already tell before, 600 spore damage is enough to kill lvl125 corrupted bombards (higher than sortie 3 mission) with 1-2 miasma cast with 100 AP.

Edited September 7, 2018 by miomima

[felixsylvaris]

Spores damage means everything, especially if they could be dropped below 3k (apart from abillity power builds) since difference of 3k and 1k is 3x more time for enemies to bad things to saryn, or just 3x more time to spawn next bunch of mobs. And 3x times more time for rest of the team to do things,

A lot of Drama is from stealing kills from the masses. So if Saryn KPS will drop she will no longer be SOOP. But rather "She is nice, corrosive pros is good against Grineer, and Miasma could really go viral, but just standard dps frame". And people will move on to bashing Equinox, Volt, Excalibur.

[Kraythax]

Just played last level of sortie, an interception. Saryn Prime, 75% of damage, everyone else nothing. Again this is BS.

[Kraythax]

And now to troll me, people are posting on warframe market a riven for Lanka for a stupid low price so that I get blasted with messages in game. Lovely. I guess if they cant win the argument they will just harass and intimidate people. I suppose if they knew my address they would call the cops reporting gun shots as "a joke". Ridiculous people that cant debate so they harass.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Kraythax

[Hellmaker2004]

1 hour ago, miomima said:

i kill 20 level 125 bombers at 600 spore damage with 1 miasma which takes like 20 seconds, and that 100% AS saryn with just range and EE focused on survivability.

A Single Bombard have at level 125.
66184,5 Clone Flesh and 11536,07 Alloy Armor.
This Translate to a unit with 2611214,36 EHP

Now with 3 casts of Spore you would have 3x3 stacks of Spore on one of those 20 Bombards, and 3 stacks of Spore on the remaining 19.

Your spore at 600 would be dealing 5400 Damage per second on the Bombard with 9 spore, and 1800 damage per second on the other 19.

 

Now lets do some easay math so see if this is plausible. To make it easy you siad you killed all 20, so we can actualy ignore the bombard with 9x Spores since if you killed the 19 other one with 3x we can assume he would be dead as well.

 

First problem is the Alloy Armor they have.

But lets be fair and say that you somehow managed to strip all the Alloy Armor, and here is where i am a little bit out of my water and are unaware what happen with stripped armor. If it get's converted to health or simply gets removed. But lets use the best case scenario in your favour.

 

With that stated you would have to strip 66184 health in 20 seconds with stacks at 600. Now if we divide that by 2. Due to Viral, we get 33092, lets substract the Miasma damage 33092 -3600 = 29492.(In my calculation i forgot to add in that Cloned FLesh take +75% From Viral Will uppdate, the corrosive damage from spore is still fine. That one i did not forget.)
 

So you managed to do 29492 damage over 20 seconds. That give us 29492 / 20 = 1474.6 and 1474.6 / 3 = 491.533333 average damage per spore needed.

So i can see this being plausible. However,
1: This is assuming you have 4x Corrosive Projection.
2: This is assuming Alloy armor reduced does not get converted into any other health type.
3: This is assuming you have each tick dealing average 491 damage per second.
4: This is assuming no one did anything for 20 seconds.
5: This is assuming Viral lasted 20 seconds.

 

1: No where did you deny not having a full squad with Corrosive Projection so i will give you this.

2: Now since i am unaware what happen with Alloy armor with 4x Corrosive Projection i will not say anything more on this.

3: Well you said that you had 100% Power strenght, that would mean you start at 10 damage, then you also said you recasted it. And recasting spore will cause it to decay, to give you the most benefit we will assume you recasted it instantly so it will start at 5.12 damage, and then we can assume you have have spore on the maximum amount of foes it scale with at 10 targets so that is 2 * 10 buildup per second, to reach 600 you would have to wait (600-5.12) / 20 = 29.744 Seconds, we can however see that the average tick needed for you to kill them was a bit lower at only 491.5333 if you keept VIral up 100% of those 20 seconds. This would leave us a bit short, sadly at around 525 damage, once we reach 600 however it would simply imply it ticked one extra time to kill them.

4: Totaly plausable if you wanted to test it out. But you either found 20x unharmed Bombards, or you used Simalacrum with 4 other friends all using Corrosive Projection.

 

5: This one is the hardest to acount for, since we only know you used 100% Power strenght but nothing about duration, Saryns default Miasma lasts for 6 sconds, and after that the Viral will linger for 7.5 seconds this would leave us a bit short of 6.5 seconds. But this could be explained by a duration increase above 100% on either Miasma or the status Viral.


Now i am not saying that you are lying my good sir. But there are a lot of unknown in this calculation so far. Some are due to my fault, some are due to the lack of data. And somehow this is used as a argument that killing a Bombard in 29.744 seconds is considered overpowered. I am not sure about a lot of other people, but in most cases that bombard even at level 125 would be dead in 1 second if i have a team with 4CP if i use my Melee  or Gun.

Ofcourse Spore is a AoE that will kill everything, but a lot of people forget that it also decays whenever nothing is no longer afflicted by it.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Hellmaker2004
Forgot Damage multipler on Viral damage type.

[miomima]

3 минуты назад, felixsylvaris сказал:

Spores damage means everything, especially if they could be dropped below 3k (apart from abillity power builds) since difference of 3k and 1k is 3x more time for enemies to bad things to saryn, or just 3x more time to spawn next bunch of mobs. And 3x times more time for rest of the team to do things,

A lot of Drama is from stealing kills from the masses. So if Saryn KPS will drop she will no longer be SOOP. But rather "She is nice, corrosive pros is good against Grineer, and Miasma could really go viral, but just standard dps frame". And people will move on to bashing Equinox, Volt, Excalibur.

That a nerf if you talking about content over lvl300, Saryn deals a lot of damage with miasma to affected by spores no armor enemies. and she gona kill everyone till lvl 100 even with 0 damage on spores.

[miomima]

5 минут назад, Hellmaker2004 сказал:

Now i am not saying that you are lying my good sir. But there are a lot of unknown in this calculation so far. Some are due to my fault, some are due to the lack of data. And somehow this is used as a argument that killing a Bombard in 29.744 seconds is considered overpowered. I am not sure about a lot of other people, but in most cases that bombard even at level 125 would be dead in 1 second if i have a team with 4CP if i use my Melee  or Gun.
 

0 CP, no guns, no visual contact with enemies. all enemies have 0 armor just from spores at that moment

Edited September 7, 2018 by miomima

[Kraythax]

Stupid people here now posting on warframe trader that I have a riven for lanka and have gotten 30 messages in an hour. I guess if you cant win an argument harass and beat your opponent? 

 

[EinheriarJudith]

swap miasma with spores. you will see saryn in ESO drop drastically

 

[Hellmaker2004]

2 minutes ago, miomima said:

0 CP, no guns, no visual contact with enemies. all enemies have 0 armor just from spores at that moment

Then you my good sir are lying. A Bombard at 125 have 11536 Alloy armor, that translate to 97,47% Damage resistance.  At 100% Power strenght spore only have 50% chance to strip armor.

Corrosive strip a % Value of current armor. To strip 11536 Alloy armor you would need 

Remaining Armor = Initial Armor × 0.75^Procs

the values we have are easy to put in.

Remaining Armor = 0
Initial Armor = 11536 

0 = 11536  × 0.75^Procs.
 

And that would be 32.51237652, now we know that a target with 3 spore will have a chance trigger the proc three times a second so in theory you need 32.51237652/ 3 =10.83745884 seconds for it to strip all armor.

Here is the problem, you are only using a 100% Power Strenght build, that would imply that you only have the base 50% chance to proc it. It would statisticly speaking take you more than half your quoted time to only strip the armor into a viable amount before you would even be able to start doing any sort of damage with Spore.

[seprent]

25 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

Stupid people here now posting on warframe trader that I have a riven for lanka and have gotten 30 messages in an hour. I guess if you cant win an argument harass and beat your opponent? 

proof? so far all we have is your word 

54 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

And now to troll me, people are posting on warframe market a riven for Lanka for a stupid low price so that I get blasted with messages in game. Lovely. I guess if they cant win the argument they will just harass and intimidate people. I suppose if they knew my address they would call the cops reporting gun shots as "a joke". Ridiculous people that cant debate so they harass.

 i found it and its a single listing for 150 plat posted yesterday if people were spam posting it why is it only one and the only thing listed on the account? 

• Lanka satitak 
• 107.4% multi shot
• 67.7% fire rate 

Edited September 7, 2018 by seprent

[miomima]

2 часа назад, miomima сказал:

which takes like 20 seconds

you can notice word "like". im not actualy counting. But i think if you realy want to see and count secodns i maybe can record video for you.

Now i`m waiting comment from someone "i can kill lvl150 bombard with my sicarus with riven mod in 0,2 seconds. Where saryn is OP?". And you need to face every bombard, aim for him, risking of getin oneshoted. Saryn can cast spores in random trashmob, shot him 3 times with no mods lato while toxic lash activated and tap miasma every few seconds under zenurik buff, you gona kill all the enemies you dont even aware of, 1 bombard, 10 bombards, 100 bombards, you dont gona see tem, they dont gona see you, they just gona stay behind walls permastuned while dying. And that im not talking about some extreme 300% AP builds.

Edited September 7, 2018 by miomima

[chofranc]

This angry rant is pointless, if you want to farm focus, you do it alone because your kills gives you more affinity than the shared affinity. The same applies when you want to farm focus with stealth, you do it alone because you get more.

[Xaero]

6 hours ago, xcenic said:

I tend to find people who cry moar on forum for nerf its because they lack resources to recreated the same build and frame. 

Oh I do have all the resources at my disposal and still don't play like that and you know why? Because it's boring, uninteractive and too easy. As someone who values challenge and active gameplay, I'll propose changes to some abilities (maybe I will create the whole new topic about this later):

Saryn. Spores are only spread by Saryn's weapons. Miasma's damage falls off with distance.

Equinox. Maim only stores damage dealt by the player, damage dealt by teammates doesn't count. Stored damage spreads evenly between enemies in range.

Mesa. Peacemaker's reticle is not screen-sized anymore, instead it's a normal reticle with a soft-lock on targets close to crosshair.

Volt. Discharge doesn't damage enemies anymore, keeps the stun effect. Approaching enemies are stunned, but the further they are from the source, the faster they recover.

Banshee. Soundquake releases bursts of soundwaves instead of constantly affecting area around her. Enemies are damaged and stunned by the waves for a moment, but can keep moving and shooting between the bursts. Banshee can also move when ability is activated.

 

These changes will make gameplay a lot more active and you'll finally get an incentive to upgrade your arsenal to full extent.