Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[coolmate]

Quote

3 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Oh I do have all the resources at my disposal and still don't play like that and you know why? Because it's boring, uninteractive and too easy. As someone who values challenge and active gameplay, I'll propose changes to some abilities (maybe I will create the whole new topic about this later):

Saryn. Spores are only spread by Saryn's weapons. Miasma's damage falls off with distance.

Equinox. Maim only stores damage dealt by the player, damage dealt by teammates doesn't count. Stored damage spreads evenly between enemies in range.

Mesa. Peacemaker's reticle is not screen-sized anymore, instead it's a normal reticle with a soft-lock on targets close to crosshair.

Volt. Discharge doesn't damage enemies anymore, keeps the stun effect. Approaching enemies are stunned, but the further they are from the source, the faster they recover.

Banshee. Soundquake releases bursts of soundwaves instead of constantly affecting area around her. Enemies are damaged and stunned by the waves for a moment, but can keep moving and shooting between the bursts. Banshee can also move when ability is activated.

 

These changes will make gameplay a lot more active and you'll finally get an incentive to upgrade your arsenal to full extent.

 

hmm nice , i like that saryn propose . not too weak , not too strong 

[Andaius]

9 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

I love Saryn, I really do. I love playing her, I love all her abilities and how destructive she is.

However, I feel empathy towards other players. I can see why, when playing with a good Saryn, they can get bored when everything is being dissolved. This is a horde shooter game. Thus, 80% of the fun comes from killing enemies. Having a Saryn obliterate everything and leaving nothing for other players to kill might leave a stagnant taste in their mouths and, eventually, they'll come to resent the Warframe.

My proposal: Spores now drain energy per second por as long as, at least, one enemy is infected. The energy increases by X every time a Y threshold of damage is reached (1 energy per second everytime damage goes up by 1,000). If energy runs out while Spores is active or you hold down the ability, all spores explode and deal X amount of damage based off the current value (like how it was when Saryn 2.5 dropped)

With this change, you can't simply stack ridiculous amounts of damage and easily maintain it. A nerf? Maybe. Will it alleviate Saryn's eating away at everything? Probably so.

She's NOT broken. Spores base damage is base something like 10 DPS. She's capped both at max gains of stacks and maximum stacks possible. If she doesn't have infected (easy task if you kill stuff too fast, and if your team mates you know kill stuff too.) She looses ticks very quickly (4 seconds 0 stacks). The problem now is with all the crying on the forums now about her they see her and stop playing, complain on the forums about her getting all the kills (because they stop trying) and then make threads like these crying for nerfs.

The simple thing is stuff needs to stay alive for saryn to get stacks. If everyone is killing stuff fast saryn doesn't get stacks very fast at all. Once everything in the room dies in a second from everyone else weapons saryn looses those meager stacks. So it's harder then you think for Saryns to build and keep her spore damage good. Oh yeah also you loose stacks for recasting spores too remember....

 

[Sahansral]

Well, arguments have been exchanged. Basically the same arguments we saw in defense of Bladestorm, Sound Quake, World of Fire, Shadow Step,Blessing, Molecular Prime, Tonkor, Simulor and Peacemaker, just to name a few.

Ant there's no reason that Saryn will get away from that kind of  same treatment. First nail in the coffin is her being one of the most played frames at the moment. Second nail she has massive negative impact on the gameplay of the other party members. Third nail is that the only solution at the moment seems to be to totally avoid her by either preselecting the group via recruit or going solo...

I, for me, rest my case at that point of the discussion.

 

 

[Sahansral]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb xcenic:

 I tend to find people who cry moar on forum for nerf its because they lack resources to recreated the same build and frame. 

Are you serious?

*checkshisprofile*

Sorry, you just hit the bottom of the barrel with that sentence.

[Scar.Heart]

I agree that Spores need a change, but I don't see myself agreeing OP's suggested change.

That bein' said, my request would be a tweak to how/when Spores deal damage. I really feel like that's the only part of it that needs assistin'.

The short of what I'm suggestin', is to prevent Spores from dealing damage (perhaps allow procs to continue?) until they blow up via hits, or until Miasma detonates them.

[IceColdHawk]

4 hours ago, Buttaface said:

No, you'd have to do -none- of those things. There are about 10 usual suspect radial AOE skills that need damage caps, range caps, target caps, falloff, etc. nerfs, and that Onslaught would have to be "redesigned" is absurd exaggeration. That defense would have to be redesigned is more of the same. Abusive, mindless map clear AOE spam is not needed to do any current content in the game.

I can understand your sentiment but i do think we should start off by nerfing Ember further instead. Because unlike Saryn, you press a button and can walk through the level with enemies dying without you doing anything. No worries about damage falling off, and no worries about having to pop a spore or something like that. Slap on max range and if Ember is quick, she leaves everyone with 0 kills in exterminate missions. Not really balanced.

[SenorClipClop]

12 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

However, I feel empathy towards other players. I can see why, when playing with a good Saryn, they can get bored when everything is being dissolved. This is a horde shooter game. Thus, 80% of the fun comes from killing enemies. Having a Saryn obliterate everything and leaving nothing for other players to kill might leave a stagnant taste in their mouths and, eventually, they'll come to resent the Warframe.

It is possible to outdamage Saryn by going really ham on things, and Spores have an interesting high-low scaling mechanic that makes them plateau at a level where they don't completely trivialize a mission. However, I think Spores are a little too strong for what they do and how they do it -- scaling up to crazy high damage numbers while devouring Armor, and spreading and increasing in damage as long as someone puts in effort (it doesn't have to be the Saryn). The effort-to-power ratio on Spore is pretty absurd right now.

The Issues

• (Minor) The special method by which enemies appear in ESO (constantly appearing anywhere within the same single room) is perfectly tuned for minimal-effort Spore propagation. In non-Onslaught missions Spore is less overpowering, but perhaps there ought to be a tweak with Spore interaction within Onslaught to keep the experience consistent with non-Onslaught missions.
• (Major) When Spores decay, they decay fast. You get a handful of seconds to get Spores out there again before all your work and scaling damage is out the window. The rate of decay means that players are usually going to feel it's essential to have Spore constantly running, and so constantly crawling upward in damage.

The Solution

• If Spores are nerfed to ensure they don't ramp up fast and murder all things forever, then there ought to be a matching buff to its sustain. How about this? Decrease the rate at which Spores ramp up in damage. Also, provide a few seconds of grace before inactive Spore starts decaying, and decrease the rate at which Spores decay. Many players will still want to have Spores on all the time, but now are free to have it off sometimes without 'punishment' and aren't pressured to recast Spores asap.

[Andaius]

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

It is possible to outdamage Saryn by going really ham on things, and Spores have an interesting high-low scaling mechanic that makes them plateau at a level where they don't completely trivialize a mission. However, I think Spores are a little too strong for what they do and how they do it -- scaling up to crazy high damage numbers while devouring Armor, and spreading and increasing in damage as long as someone puts in effort (it doesn't have to be the Saryn). The effort-to-power ratio on Spore is pretty absurd right now.

The Issues

• (Minor) The special method by which enemies appear in ESO (constantly appearing anywhere within the same single room) is perfectly tuned for minimal-effort Spore propagation. In non-Onslaught missions Spore is less overpowering, but perhaps there ought to be a tweak with Spore interaction within Onslaught to keep the experience consistent with non-Onslaught missions.
• (Major) When Spores decay, they decay fast. You get a handful of seconds to get Spores out there again before all your work and scaling damage is out the window. The rate of decay means that players are usually going to feel it's essential to have Spore constantly running, and so constantly crawling upward in damage.

The Solution

• If Spores are nerfed to ensure they don't ramp up fast and murder all things forever, then there ought to be a matching buff to its sustain. How about this? Decrease the rate at which Spores ramp up in damage. Also, provide a few seconds of grace before inactive Spore starts decaying, and decrease the rate at which Spores decay. Many players will still want to have Spores on all the time, but now are free to have it off sometimes without 'punishment' and aren't pressured to recast Spores asap.

Honestly in non-ESO mission types, your killing s ofast with team mates using there weapons and skills, that you barely get stacks at fast rates anyway.  Plus between waves you usually get reset anyway after the room is cleared and enemies take a little travel time or are killed by team before you can cast spore. Really the only time you can see instances of "One shotting everything" is in ESO where you pretty much are stuck in 1 room thats contently full of enemies. The absolute best possible instance for spores. That pretty much isn't seen anywhere else. REally is there much difference in a moderate ramp up that falls off quickly and a slow ramp that fall off more slowly? Usually your find a natural sweet spot you'll hover around in a giving mission, depending on how good you are at managing the spores.

[Andaius]

ESO is all about killing as fast as possible. Why complain and cry nerf about Spore that only in this one instance is in an environment that it's best at? (Really having basically one room that always stays full of enemies is the most optimum place for a skill like spore. Also it's an instance that pretty much isn't in any other mission. all the other endless mission see's enemies coming in waves from multiple directions and from longer distances. Spore isn't nearly so good in that scenario.)

[Fallen_Echo]

8 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Now since i am unaware what happen with Alloy armor with 4x Corrosive Projection i will not say anything more on this.

It ceases to exist and all grineer are changes to cloned flesh health type.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Ant there's no reason that Saryn will get away from that kind of  same treatment. 

There is one and that is the fact that almost all of those balance changes killed the usage of them.

5 hours ago, Sahansral said:

First nail in the coffin is her being one of the most played frames at the moment.

I might be wrong but the last released data on usage shows that saryn is barely used. Do you have sources for that claim?

 

5 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Second nail she has massive negative impact on the gameplay of the other party members.

Just like everybody with a decent set of weapons and skills. Literally i can go and ruin a newbies day with only using volts 1st and an ignis.

 

5 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Third nail is that the only solution at the moment seems to be to totally avoid her by either preselecting the group via recruit or going solo...

This is the universal fix for all problems.

Dont like speedbuffs? Go solo/rec.

Dont like Ignis? Go solo/rec.

Dont like anything? Go solo/rec.

By going pub you are accepting that everything can come and appear from a troll limbo, wof ember in radiation sortie 3 or trinity who refuses to use skills.

[Andaius]

8 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It ceases to exist and all grineer are changes to cloned flesh health type.

What they should really do is have 2 bars on enemies one for there shields/armor and the HP bar underneath it. That way it makes it easier to see how various things effect stuff.

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

By going pub you are accepting that everything can come and appear from a troll limbo, wof ember in radiation sortie 3 or trinity who refuses to use skills.

This ^ If your going pub, it's a given that your accepting that anything is fair use. If you start wanting exeptions then you have the tools to do that with solo/invite/friends mode.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Andaius

[Sahansral]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Fallen_Echo:

 

I might be wrong but the last released data on usage shows that saryn is barely used. Do you have sources for that claim?

 

[Fallen_Echo]

24 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

I stand corrected. When was thus released?

[miomima]

Nobody uses Saryn because everyone abuses Saryn Prime %)

[miomima]

9 часов назад, Andaius сказал:

She's NOT broken. Spores base damage is base something like 10 DPS. She's capped both at max gains of stacks and maximum stacks possible. If she doesn't have infected (easy task if you kill stuff too fast, and if your team mates you know kill stuff too.) She looses ticks very quickly (4 seconds 0 stacks). The problem now is with all the crying on the forums now about her they see her and stop playing, complain on the forums about her getting all the kills (because they stop trying) and then make threads like these crying for nerfs.

The simple thing is stuff needs to stay alive for saryn to get stacks. If everyone is killing stuff fast saryn doesn't get stacks very fast at all. Once everything in the room dies in a second from everyone else weapons saryn looses those meager stacks. So it's harder then you think for Saryns to build and keep her spore damage good. Oh yeah also you loose stacks for recasting spores too remember....

 

You forgot one thing, spores is not suposed to be her nuke. Her full map nuke is miasma, on low level content you dont even need to cast spores, just press 4, miasma have huge range, miasma halves all enemies hp which effectively doubles all the miasma damage, miasma have no animation, miasma work through walls, miasma is cheap ability (especialy with EE builds). And we end up with frame that kills all low level content (except nullifiers) just by pressing 4 from time to time, and kills all enemies in high (and over) level content by spores with miasma without using gun on mission outside spreading spores.

And how we talk before woth someone - she dont even supost to be a nuker frame and belongs to melee frames with all awesome stats she have.

Edited September 7, 2018 by miomima

[Soketsu]

Everything is OP if ennemy don't match our power,

But unlike the other, you pretend to at least liking Sarynn, so with you, I won't be dismissive.

My question will be simple, why don't you propose to come back to the previous version where tread about it wasn't mainstream ? I mean I did read read you suggestion, but why this instead of that ?

Do you think this change may make the ability unpopular ?

[EvilChaosKnight]

Idk OP, I'm not playing Saryn all that much but I'm sure happy to see her in ESO. Certainly more than Lokis who are baseline useless or whoever.
Normal SO is cool too. Allows me to lvl up frames faster thanks to more EXP. My personal advice? Speak for yourself and not others, esp. people you don't know.

Never saw any complaints in game chat about Saryns, Mesas or Volts, so... where are you getting that "people aren't happy" bit anyway? Projecting much?

[seprent]

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I stand corrected. When was thus released?

dev stream i think 119 i cant remember but its a shot of all frames used in the span of one solid week

[IceColdHawk]

12 hours ago, Sahansral said:

First nail in the coffin is her being one of the most played frames at the moment.

And this is a bad thing? Why does everyone think "Often played frames" are bad and needs to be made worse? Ever thought about enhancing never-used frames that barely serve a purpose?

12 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Third nail is that the only solution at the moment seems to be to totally avoid her by either preselecting the group via recruit or going solo...

Or bring sufficient arsenal? 9/10 of my sorties i play is full of low MRs that can't even get enemies dead and this is what the OP uses as an example on how nobody in his interception was able to kill but Saryn. And i seem to always get out with enough kills even with a Saryn in my team and me not playing a DPS frame. Why is it that I can do it but others, such as the OP can't?

Simple, they don't even try.

[miomima]

1 час назад, IceColdHawk сказал:

And this is a bad thing? Why does everyone think "Often played frames" are bad and needs to be made worse? Ever thought about enhancing never-used frames that barely serve a purpose?

Because "Bad" frames actualy not bad? lets bring old Ash, Old Ember, Old mag, give full map AOE nuke that kills enemies up to lvl200 to every frame, then game gona be good (not.)

[miomima]

2 часа назад, EvilChaosKnight сказал:

Idk OP, I'm not playing Saryn all that much but I'm sure happy to see her in ESO. Certainly more than Lokis who are baseline useless or whoever.
Normal SO is cool too. Allows me to lvl up frames faster thanks to more EXP. My personal advice? Speak for yourself and not others, esp. people you don't know.

Never saw any complaints in game chat about Saryns, Mesas or Volts, so... where are you getting that "people aren't happy" bit anyway? Projecting much?

So another community member who place his own interest and profit over fun and balanced game that force you to do things if you want to achieve victory.

And why you gona even type something in game chat about how broken and un fun saryn is? Its gona do nothing or even provoke someone so he gona start spaming miasma even more often.

Edited September 7, 2018 by miomima

[EvilChaosKnight]

2 minutes ago, miomima said:

that force you to do things if you want to achieve victory.

Tell that to the stupid efficiency drain for example.

4 minutes ago, miomima said:

So another community member who place his own interest and profit over fun and balanced game

But I'm having fun. Saryn player with me is having fun. Nobody complains in chat (unlike, say, I've seen several times when people asked Embers to turn off WoF).
Idk, personally I feel like OP is seriously overestimating the amount of contempt playerbase has towards Saryn. Especially compared to EXP/loot/focus benefits others enjoy.

[Buttaface]

15 hours ago, Ksaero said:

Oh I do have all the resources at my disposal and still don't play like that and you know why? Because it's boring, uninteractive and too easy. As someone who values challenge and active gameplay, I'll propose changes to some abilities (maybe I will create the whole new topic about this later):

Saryn. Spores are only spread by Saryn's weapons. Miasma's damage falls off with distance.

Equinox. Maim only stores damage dealt by the player, damage dealt by teammates doesn't count. Stored damage spreads evenly between enemies in range.

Mesa. Peacemaker's reticle is not screen-sized anymore, instead it's a normal reticle with a soft-lock on targets close to crosshair.

Volt. Discharge doesn't damage enemies anymore, keeps the stun effect. Approaching enemies are stunned, but the further they are from the source, the faster they recover.

Banshee. Soundquake releases bursts of soundwaves instead of constantly affecting area around her. Enemies are damaged and stunned by the waves for a moment, but can keep moving and shooting between the bursts. Banshee can also move when ability is activated.

 

These changes will make gameplay a lot more active and you'll finally get an incentive to upgrade your arsenal to full extent.

Great suggestions, here have a block quote for emphasis.

I understand that they need to have crutch powers in the game for weak connections, controller players, bad aimers, bad players generally, to get their money too, but it has gotten way out of hand.

Last night needed to put one more forma on a weapon, so was going to do a few fast akkads, hope for a good enough team to do 20 waves. For EIGHT matches in a row, there was someone spamming powers that are flat out -bad- on infested after wave five when the aura mobs start coming out and slow the match down to a crawl. Max range Volts, Frosts, Banshees even Oberons spamming radiation... on infested. Many of these are MR 15 and above players (I find for some reason that is the MR range for tryhards in WF). Not only do they not realize they are getting no affinity on the weapons they are leveling when they spam powers, but when asked to stop with please or couching it in the nicest way, they ask "why?" instead of simply stopping. Given an explanation that it slows down the rounds, 90%, no exaggeration, will just keep spamming as the waves get longer and longer, or better yet, say some smartass tryhard thing in retort.

There is a real problem in WF when players can get to moderately high MR and still not understand the game mechanics. AOE spam is choking the fun out of this game moreso than it ever has in the past. To repeat, in the olden pre power creep days, AOE frame powers were needed to do necessary content, maximize void keys, etc. It no longer is. Nothing in the game needs AOE mapclear to complete including ESO.

[(PSN)ALTBOULI]

On 2018-09-06 at 8:52 PM, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

I'm asking for a balance pass, for the sake of my teammate's fun. She is extremely (broken) powerful and no "that's how a dmg frame should be" is gonna change that

Quite arrogant to speak on your teammates behalf. If you cared so much then why don't you play another kit, or better yet try a different build?