Chroma needs a rework

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

9 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

And you're the one that can't decide if EW is useless or useful .

Make up your mind already.

Or just admit that you want Chroma buffed for the sake of getting buffed and nothing else .

yes i have said it is usefull. but i disagreed to you opinion that it is powerfull. please dont mix up what I'm saying to what you are saying

btw I'm still waiting for some explanations

[Spectre-8]

9 hours ago, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

yes i have said it is usefull. but i disagreed to you opinion that it is powerfull. please dont mix up what I'm saying to what you are saying

btw I'm still waiting for some explanations

If you can't figure out why EW is great , you have no business being here discussing Chroma changes at all .

 

 

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

7 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

If you can't figure out why EW is great , you have no business being here discussing Chroma changes at all .

 

 

you neither if you arent able you explain it

[Spectre-8]

Just now, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

you neither if you arent able you explain it

If you can't figure it out on your own , like I said you don't belong here .

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

1 minute ago, Spectre-8 said:

If you can't figure it out on your own , like I said you don't belong here .

on the other hand you cant figure out why EW is a mediocre ability, so you dont belong here too

 

[Spectre-8]

Just now, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

on the other hand you cant figure out why EW is a mediocre ability, so you dont belong here too

 

So from useful all of a sudden became mediocre , are you ok ?

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

Just now, Spectre-8 said:

So from useful all of a sudden became mediocre , are you ok ?

I already told you at the start of this discussion usefullnes doesn't say something is great.

yeah it is usefull, but this doesnt change the fact, that EW is nothing more than a ablity which functions as the same as a mod, leading to show that it is mediocre.

I'm quite surprised you still cant explain it, my question i asked you in the beginning. I'm having the fear you just have played chroma for eidolons and nothing more

[Conflux59]

1 hour ago, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

I already told you at the start of this discussion usefullnes doesn't say something is great.

yeah it is usefull, but this doesnt change the fact, that EW is nothing more than a ablity which functions as the same as a mod, leading to show that it is mediocre.

I'm quite surprised you still cant explain it, my question i asked you in the beginning. I'm having the fear you just have played chroma for eidolons and nothing more

I think it's time to start ignoring them...  they keep leading the conversation away from the topic.  They haven't provided us with any credible points so far, the points they've tried to make have zero merit to them and are only directed at us being wrong about ____ instead of chroma or his kit, again with no explanation or reasoning.  = troll

[Endrian]

Went and updated my post on page 49 to reflect the state of my Fan Concepts thread is at, just in case DE has been paying attention to this thread.

 

[ZodiacShinryu]

5 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

If you can't figure out why EW is great , you have no business being here discussing Chroma changes at all .

EW is definitely NOT "great". It is an okay ability for what it is but far from great. Heat is easily the most dominate because of how armor works especially after the calculation changes on Vex. But since Cold and Heat fight for the same niche (tanking damage), Heat wins because it provides better eHp and a Heal (even though it still isn't the support it use to be when Chroma could heal allies reliably). Then we have Elec that functionality is hindered by Chroma's own kit (not to mention the lesser incentive to spec large amounts range) and the way shields work. The main attraction of elec is reduced as soon as you hit health and since shields are both slow and unreliable without a method to replenish them yourself quickly, you get a weak stun that he doesn't need and only triggers randomly if you get hit. And Toxin is "okay" I guess as a minor indirect DPS boost. Not being able to shift into toxin at will limits it most since the offensive boost is rather insignificant for the defensive capabilities you give up.

In short Heat is decent, Elec and Toxin if you don't need full tankiness and want to shake it up a bit, and currently Cold is so far underwater you are literally using it just because you can. Not the makings of a great ability when 3 of your 4 options are choices mostly built on a presumption that you don't need Heat for what you're doing.

At this point, DE should just remove the offensive parts of Ward because they are so insignificant and underused for the needs of Chroma then combine Ward and Vex then make an elemental offensive aura ability (or a limited range nuke if need be).

[Endrian]

45 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

At this point, DE should just remove the offensive parts of Ward because they are so insignificant and underused for the needs of Chroma then combine Ward and Vex then make an elemental offensive aura ability (or a limited range nuke if need be).

I just... I see this suggestion so often, and it feels like people are oblivious to the fact that it would result in, most likely, a watered-down effect for both abilities. There's no way DE would give Chroma a 75-energy ability that gives him the full effect of the current Vex Armor and the buff aspect of Elemental Ward (full Vex Armor + Health gain/increased max Health, full Vex Armor + even more increased Armor and bullet deflection, full Vex Armor + increased max Shields and arc discharge, et cetera).

It would, in effect, be a nerf for Chroma and make him even weaker than before, with the only benefit being less energy spent. We should want Elemental Ward to be stronger, not water it down even further. It could very easily operate as the "element switch" ability for Chroma, and also grant an improved buff/effect.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Endrian

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

On 2018-10-31 at 2:34 PM, Endrian said:

Concept art for my Spectral Scream replacement concept.

It could also be combined with an elemental switch ability

[ZodiacShinryu]

7 hours ago, Endrian said:

I just... I see this suggestion so often, and it feels like people are oblivious to the fact that it would result in, most likely, a watered-down effect for both abilities. There's no way DE would give Chroma a 75-energy ability that gives him the full effect of the current Vex Armor and the buff aspect of Elemental Ward (full Vex Armor + Health gain/increased max Health, full Vex Armor + even more increased Armor and bullet deflection, full Vex Armor + increased max Shields and arc discharge, et cetera).

It would, in effect, be a nerf for Chroma and make him even weaker than before, with the only benefit being less energy spent. We should want Elemental Ward to be stronger, not water it down even further. It could very easily operate as the "element switch" ability for Chroma, and also grant an improved buff/effect.

First, I see this response often and I personally don't see why they need to water it down being that is functionally what happens right now. I have a build with 45% efficiency and I don't generally worry about energy (outside infested which can sap energy left and right that even 175% can still not be enough) so don't make energy a big deal here. It barely limits them both separately as it is. I also didn't propose a buff to anything (though it would likely become recastable which is a buff in many ways) and before the calculation changes on vex and the 'olive branch' of making it an aura, I wouldn't have even suggested it. But now they both operate the same with a focus on uptime. Honestly what I really want would be a nerf in most eyes which is the removal of self-damage on Vex gains in exchange for a more generous curve. Self damage is an exploit that is the only reason that keeps that ability a float. So don't go throwing around words like "oblivious" when there isn't a set law to balance (Nidus is still doing everything Chroma is doing in 3 forms at once but better; except raw weapon boosts), other than your own fear of DE's decision-making process.

Second, I also hear a lot of "buff/improve EW". Buff it to what exactly? Statistically, EW provides more than enough of a boost already. Other than perhaps a more interesting/enticing Toxin boost and a redone Cold, there isn't a lot of maneuvering. Then we have the offensive parts of Ward which are pitiful, except Elec which is 'okay' when it can be utilized better (often a shield restore ally). That said, that could just be broken off into the offensive aura ability that we would have space to grant if we combine defensive/support Ward with Vex. The end result is functionally the same outcome but is streamlined and optimized to equalize his auras' worth.

Third, as much as I want an Elemental Shift mechanic I can't give feedback on a balancing act that doesn't exist yet. But If we factor in an Elemental swap the last thing I would be thinking would be buffing Wards in any way, especially if you want to shift freely on Ward itself. The process of shifting would likely be handled as a recast which is a huge buff in itself because of how Ward already works and the limitations on it's effects.; even if we assume that it overwrites the last Ward buff each time. If you are so worried about "watered down" Wards, being able to access them all AND refreshing them when you want definitely isn't solid step to then reasonably suggest they also do even more.

All that said, EW and Vex are his least needed abilities to look at in general. I would settle just for a rework into 1 and 4 with a better overall elemental synergy mechanic that either encourages more unique elemental forms or fluid movement between them as the tasks arise.

[(XBOX)SirMilkfiend]

Me umpteenth dream chroma rework with liberally stolen ideas

Passive: taking fatal damage sheds the pelt putting effigy on a forced cooldown. (The way chroma is his activating effigy reminds me in a thematic way of Samus Aran, a warrior in a suit of armour who loses that armour, I like that idea for a warframe)

1: spectral scream can be used with weapons. Elements may be switched on a wheel and damage is determined by an exalted mod set.(scream's biggest weakness is locking off your weapons for a mediocre secondary and it deflates the badass dragon Chroma could be)

2: combines ward and effigy making effigy duration based. Elements may be switched independently changing spectral scream to a hybrid status effect. On summoning the effigy elemental buff is applied. Effigy can be immediately recalled with no animation penalty and if done so buff is retained. Casting ability refreshes vex armour. While effigy is active the vex armour buffs 'scorn' and 'fury' are converted into 'spite' and 'grudge'. 'Spite' increases mobility and 'grudge' increases critical chance. Effigy damage determined by exalted weapon. (Brings effigy deeper into Chroma's kit and gives Chroma combat options without his pelt, independent element switch makes spectral scream formidable and refreshing vex armour relieves the repetition of tapping that ability button).

3: vex as before. Buffs do not expire immediately but decay to zero over 2 seconds. (just a QOL change)

4: awaken. IF effigy is active pelt becomes the sentient dracolyst twisting the surrounding landscape into an elemental hellscape. Casting refreshes duration on effigy. (I love the ruinous effigy)

IF effigy inactive Chroma triggers his exalted archwing form raining down horror and destruction. Alternate fire is stunning roar. Activating his 2 in this form wraps Chroma in an elemental cloak he can use to fly headfirst colliding into the ground and triggering explosions. Damage determined by exalted weapon. (This is my fantasy for Chroma a tanky kamikaze dragon Titania in all his glory)

Elemental buffs (can be balanced)

Heat:health plus minor life steal

Cold:armour plus slow

Toxin:reload plus armour reduction

Electric:shield plus shield/health damage rewards energy

Edited November 11, 2018 by (XB1)SirMilkfiend

[Endrian]

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

First, I see this response often and I personally don't see why they need to water it down being that is functionally what happens right now. I have a build with 45% efficiency and I don't generally worry about energy (outside infested which can sap energy left and right that even 175% can still not be enough) so don't make energy a big deal here.

But that's my point. That's why it wouldn't really be a gain for us, because there's no reasonable way DE would see it as being balanced if Chroma can multiply his damage, his Armor, and his Health/Shields/more Armor, all in one ability. There would be a reduction in multipliers in one fashion or another.

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Self damage is an exploit that is the only reason that keeps that ability a float. So don't go throwing around words like "oblivious" when there isn't a set law to balance (Nidus is still doing everything Chroma is doing in 3 forms at once but better; except raw weapon boosts), other than your own fear of DE's decision-making process.

...? Not sure what you mean, because self-damage is by far not a necessity to keep Vex Armor "afloat." Vex Armor was made recastable, so all you have to do is get the multipliers maxed once, and then just keep recasting it before it runs out. Vex Armor is widely considered Chroma's best ability, we shouldn't be trying to mix and match it with Elemental Ward, especially when your goal is to just split Elemental Ward's effects, stack half of them onto Vex Armor, and then keep the other half as a separate aura. How exactly is it any different except risking a nerfed Vex Armor in exchange for a possibly stronger offensive Elemental Ward?

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Second, I also hear a lot of "buff/improve EW". Buff it to what exactly? Statistically, EW provides more than enough of a boost already. Other than perhaps a more interesting/enticing Toxin boost and a redone Cold, there isn't a lot of maneuvering. Then we have the offensive parts of Ward which are pitiful, except Elec which is 'okay' when it can be utilized better (often a shield restore ally). That said, that could just be broken off into the offensive aura ability that we would have space to grant if we combine defensive/support Ward with Vex. The end result is functionally the same outcome but is streamlined and optimized to equalize his auras' worth.

It could be buffed to have the stat gains be multiplicative of total modified attributes rather than the base. It's rather laughable that the buffs it grants are based on rank 0 Warframe base stats for Health and Shields (Armor is always the same from 0-30 unless you're Nidus, but Cold Elemental Ward calculates the Armor bonus before considering mods like Steel Fiber); it doesn't even consider the current rank of the Warframe. It should be based on the total stat, but just reduce the base multiplier itself for balance, but still granting more of a benefit by multiplying the total so that people gain more from using maxed stat mods. Then, add small secondary thematic effects that are consistent with the current design that boost desirability.

• HEAT would also grant health regeneration based on a % of total Health per second, so it's equal for all, whether you're Inaros or Loki.
• COLD would also grant a slowing effect on enemies within the aura.
• TOXIN would just need to be reconfigured at large (more details in my rework concept on page 49).
• ELECTRIC would have a larger arc discharge radius that ignores power range except for aura size, and could give overshields based on arc discharge damage.

5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

All that said, EW and Vex are his least needed abilities to look at in general. I would settle just for a rework into 1 and 4 with a better overall elemental synergy mechanic that either encourages more unique elemental forms or fluid movement between them as the tasks arise.

100% agreed with you there. If any abilities are going to be looked at first, it needs to be his 1 and 4. Pretty sure that's unanimous among Chroma players.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Endrian

[dbs1a]

I believe i'm talking for all of us in this matter, when i say that the lack of wings and ability to fly has made us all very disappointed since, well, he is a dragon and we do want a dragon who can fly instead of giving his companion these so- yearn for- wings (which is quite unfair)

Its kinda hard for me to believe that adding wings to chroma instead of his current 4 would be that difficult to execute and balance for the DE team. Please DO NOT take this feedback for granted since i'm not the only one who asks for chroma to have wings!!!

Edited November 10, 2018 by dbs1a

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

2 hours ago, dbs1a said:

I believe i'm talking for all of us in this matter, when i say that the lack of wings and ability to fly has made us all very disappointed since, well, he is a dragon and we do want a dragon who can fly instead of giving his companion these so- yearn for- wings (which is quite unfair)

I'm not really into a flying chroma, we already have Titania and Zephyr, I consider Chroma like a drake instead of a dragon

[ZodiacShinryu]

3 hours ago, Endrian said:

But that's my point. That's why it wouldn't really be a gain for us, because there's no reasonable way DE would see it as being balanced if Chroma can multiply his damage, his Armor, and his Health/Shields/more Armor, all in one ability. There would be a reduction in multipliers in one fashion or another.

You literally can't know that unless you ask DE, which is my point. And again currently its just weapon damage (I have to say that because Roar does all damage; multiplicatively at that), armor which diminishes anyway (without multiplicative math, Cold is mostly useless as is) and 1 stat based on element. If we start throwing Swaps in there it is a completely different game requiring different metrics. But this isn't the first ability to be overloaded in the least bit let alone it is simply small range aura (that benefits only Chroma reliably). And if its recastable a slight statistical reduction doesn't matter as much (depending on what it is) because 1. you have full control and 2. the way Ward currently works benefits a great deal. Heat could actually be a support ability that can heal in pinches and elec could be used more aggressively. I already said cold needs to be redone and toxin in all honesty needs more. I mean his buff ability is really just a more niche version of Rhino (who is useful for more things in general), Chroma is honestly overdue.

3 hours ago, Endrian said:

...? Not sure what you mean, because self-damage is by far not a necessity to keep Vex Armor "afloat."

I mean it is not reliable. Self-damage makes it more reliable. The only time self damage doesn't really matter is when you segregate yourself so you allies aren't compounding your gains and/or higher level (which is not most the game). Fortuna for example I don't think I have hit max cap more than a handful of times doing bounties (not to mention buffs come off when you use a vehicle). People like to point out how great Chroma is for Eidolons but I know from experience that damage outside Gantu is mostly random and Trin generally doesn't make it any easier to fill up. A mistake, not being careful and you might lapse then you would have nothing maybe when you need it most. Meanwhile you have Rhino (which is a super close rival buff wise and under certain conditions surpasses Chroma), Octavia, and Volt giving out damage steroids instantly and simply. You take away his means to reliably compete and you have any frame using a weapon. I can guarantee that if DE removed self-damage from Vex, the community wouldn't be making excuses for the shape he is in right now.

4 hours ago, Endrian said:

especially when your goal is to just split Elemental Ward's effects, stack half of them onto Vex Armor, and then keep the other half as a separate aura.

That's not exactly what a said. I did say his offensive components are already fairly useless on Ward in potency, CC potential, and effective range; they certainly aren't reliable. Toxin for crying out loud doesn't even work if the target is already suffering from a toxin proc. So DE could just remove them and no one would care. With that a possible suggestion would be to reapply those concepts and place them on a new 'offensive' ability that could be an enemy targeting aura with a more effective range.. But to just move them over as they are to a new power as an aura... absolutely not. That said I personally would like a more impactful quick 'nuke-ish' type skill that could be more debuff in focus with minor damage (which elec ward's offense is already very close to such).

4 hours ago, Endrian said:

It could be buffed to have the stat gains be multiplicative of total modified attributes rather than the base. It's rather laughable that the buffs it grants are based on rank 0 Warframe base stats for Health and Shields (Armor is always the same from 0-30 unless you're Nidus, but Cold Elemental Ward calculates the Armor bonus before considering mods like Steel Fiber); it doesn't even consider the current rank of the Warframe. It should be based on the total stat, but just reduce the base multiplier itself for balance, but still granting more of a benefit by multiplying the total so that people gain more from using maxed stat mods. Then, add small secondary thematic effects that are consistent with the current design that boost desirability.

• HEAT would also grant health regeneration based on a % of total Health per second, so it's equal for all, whether you're Inaros or Loki.
• COLD would also grant a slowing effect on enemies within the aura.
• TOXIN would just need to be reconfigured at large (more details in my rework concept on page 49).
• ELECTRIC would have a larger arc discharge radius that ignores power range except for aura size, and could give overshields based on arc discharge damage. 

And you are saying my suggestion was unreasonable? Crazy. Part of the reason it is base stats and additive is to NOT run amok with modding. The game treats level boost stats like hidden additive mods and has been consistent since mods were added. With that, as much as I want regen on Heat (that is a huge buff btw, which just pushes Cold into more obscurity) percentages likely not going to happen unless you are looking at like 1%. And Cold already basically does that if they attack you, with the deflection cold proc chance.

[Endrian]

1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

And again currently its just weapon damage (I have to say that because Roar does all damage; multiplicatively at that)

Actually, Fury currently buffs Spectral Scream ability damage too, but it's such an underpowered ability otherwise (in terms of range, elemental differences, and its restrictions on weapon use) that very few actually know this, simply because we don't use Spectral Scream in its current state. Fury could be more broadly applied in this way so it effects more of Chroma's abilities, but not others'; for them, it'd still just be a weapon damage buff. It could be buffing Effigy's breath attacks, for example, or Electric Elemental Ward arc discharges.

1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

You literally can't know that unless you ask DE, which is my point.

Then people need to get real specific about what they ask of DE instead of just saying "combine Vex Armor and Elemental Ward." If you're not requiring that you get Vex Armor's full multiplier in the new ability, then expect it to get nerfed in order to make room for the additional buffs it would receive by being combined with even part of Elemental Ward, for no additional energy cost. We've both played Warframe long enough (going by our Founder status), that we ought to know that DE wouldn't just combine two significant buffs/auras and it not come with any drawback/reduction in effectiveness. Sure, if Vex Armor and Elemental Ward were combined and had their full effect undiminished and only cost 75 energy, that'd be great! It'd be amazing (and probably a little overpowered)! But it's extremely unlikely that there'd be no reduction in strength or duration for one or the other or both in exchange.

1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

And you are saying my suggestion was unreasonable? Crazy. Part of the reason it is base stats and additive is to NOT run amok with modding. The game treats level boost stats like hidden additive mods and has been consistent since mods were added. With that, as much as I want regen on Heat (that is a huge buff btw, which just pushes Cold into more obscurity) percentages likely not going to happen unless you are looking at like 1%. And Cold already basically does that if they attack you, with the deflection cold proc chance.

It's not that crazy if you just lower the base multiplier somewhat for balance purposes, but allow for greater overall gain if you've put in the credits and Endo to max out your mods. I mean, just apply a multiplier cap if you're that worried... The multiplied attribute equal no more than 2.5x the total attribute, or something. If you start at 700 Health, can't go any higher than 1,750 (2.5x) with Heat Elemental Ward, something like that.

And it's also not that consistent that boosted stats are treated as "hidden additive mods" as you suggest, because there are such stat gains on other Warframes that are multiplicative:

• RHINO'S IRON SKIN: Multiplicative. When determining the armor health, Armor is multiplied after taking any mods into consideration.
• RHINO'S ROAR: Multiplicative. Multiplies total weapon damage and ability damage.
• BANSHEE'S SONAR: Multiplicative. Not only does it multiply total weapon damage, but when applying multiple instances of Sonar, if vulnerable areas overlap, damage is further multiplied, not just added together.
• VOLT'S SPEED: Multiplicative. Specifically, the bonus on movement speed is multiplicative, taking Rush and other movement speed mods into consideration.

Some also give additive bonuses, but it's by no means all. But as power creep/difficulty creep carries more and more forward, and more powerful mods are given out that allow base stats/weapon damage to be increased higher and higher, and more dangerous enemies and mission types are added, additive-bonus abilities will fall behind. Multiplicative powers are always strong and always current, because they scale with power/difficulty. Additive powers do not scale unless it's a broader type of addition that acts as a multiplier in its own right, such as +50% base weapon attack speed (such as from Volt's Speed), because that weapon speed will just multiply the weapon's base or total damage due to being able to deliver strikes more quickly. Compare that to +50% base weapon damage (such as from Chroma's Vex Armor), which ignores total weapon damage as augmented by damage mods, elemental damage mods, multishot mods, and rivens.

And Cold only slows because of the proc, but that proc also only happens if you're attacked at range. It's not overall deflection, it's projectile deflection that turns damage onto the attacker, and deflected projectiles can be blocked by environmental obstacles, and it doesn't do anything to melee attackers. The only guaranteed deflection that hits the attacker is hitscan-based projectiles.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Endrian

[Endrian]

[snip]

Edited November 11, 2018 by Endrian

[Spectre-8]

On 2018-11-10 at 1:31 AM, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

EW is nothing more than a ablity which functions as the same as a mod, leading to show that it is mediocre.

 

What does this even mean lol ?!

[maddragonmaster]

now that see how garuda works now i was thinking maybe chroma could possibly have a similar effect except if you either go without a primary or secondary you use his spectral scream to the effect of a flame, ice, toxin, electricty beam weapon. maybe have a alt effect that allows you to switch between elemental balls of energy, element cone breath, a cylinder or a traditional beam breath. and maybe have a first ability that is like leap stop ability. the only downside is i believe there will be a few people that don't want to sacrifice the use of their favorite secondary or primary for chroma's elemental breath effect.

[ZodiacShinryu]

7 hours ago, Endrian said:

Actually, Fury currently buffs Spectral Scream ability damage too

Fury was noted in that tiny revisit when they changed Vex calculations (and gave more mobility while using SS) to then apply to Spectral Scream, it didn't use to. By extension, indeed, people think it might also carry over to Effigy, though that hardly matters when Effigy randomly attacks single targets at a time for such a high drain even without dumping efficiency. While I can understand people not knowing certain mechanics, after all, many mechanics that are even documented in the game go unnoticed by large numbers of people.

However when I said Roar did more, I was particularly meaning that Roar buffs allies powers. Roar boosts Spectral Scream (or any other power of special ability/action) but Vex Fury does not boost Charge... or any other power outside Chroma's kit. Want to speed up your nuker? You bring a Rhino not a Chroma. That particular edge is important given that if you are modded correctly Rhino also creeps up on Chroma even in weapon damage AND he does it instantly. You have to go out of your way to keep Chroma on top and he is only really useful if and only if you need raw weapon damage because of that (to which only Eidolons require anything close to what either of them put out).

7 hours ago, Endrian said:

Then people need to get real specific about what they ask of DE instead of just saying "combine Vex Armor and Elemental Ward."

I mean that's all just fear in the first place. I could go into extremely precise detail but in the end DE can take bits and parts that they like and do what ever regardless of the stipulations I put on it. I am not mandating that they pursue anything. They are ultimately going to do whatever they feel is right. It is that simple. Again, the change isn't the first an ability would be overloaded or a mismatch on energy usage. I mean Gara, Saryn, Limbo, and Nidus are good examples of uneven hands. It is all up to how they feel on the day.

Provided they actually update his 1 and 4 and in theory made a new enticing ability to fill the slot you get a whole different energy management dynamic anyway.

7 hours ago, Endrian said:

It's not that crazy if you just lower the base multiplier somewhat for balance purposes,

I mean you can accomplish the same thing by increasing the additive contribution weights/factors. Its just math you can do what every you want with it. What you should keep in mind is that Vex WAS multiplicative and they changed it to additive. There was already a deliberate action.

8 hours ago, Endrian said:

And it's also not that consistent that boosted stats are treated as "hidden additive mods" as you suggest, because there are such stat gains on other Warframes that are multiplicative:

I am quite aware of the exceptions. I have lamented on those exceptions when the changed happened the first time. Though when I was talking about "hidden stats" I was talking about the stats from leveling in particular not all buffs. That said Chroma in particular deals with a lot of math where as Rhino is simple and straight forward. Banshee is mostly straightforward too limited by the fact it is applied to the enemy rather than the user (though she is surely walking the line). So they decided to deal with 1 factor (a constant base pre set value) rather than sort out the math between all his interactions and risk having a messy calculation that double dipped certain aspects.

Honestly the larger problem is that Vex is under performing because of their caution. Vex a skill that is suppose to enhance him based on a risk (taking damage) is not summarily beating skills that have no risk (like Roar). But realistically, Vex doesn't have a risk because it is easily bypassed through self damage (being recastable also exacerbates this issue; even though self damage has always defied the risk since his release) thus justifying its underperformance on those 'hard scales of balance'. Sooo… hmm. It is not so much that it (or Ward for that matter) needs to be multiplicative since the player doesn't actually scale up in battle over time (it is virtually additive once you get going) but that the math is too low. It probably should be multiplicative simply because it is easier to understand on the UI and ALL buffs should be recalculated to do the same for comparison sake (though I am sure there is some ally interactions that worry them). It isn't something too important to address as long as self damage exists but it (personally) supports a little flexibility for DE depending on how/if they want to tackle it.

8 hours ago, Endrian said:

And Cold only slows because of the proc, but that proc also only happens if you're attacked at range.

Yes and range targets are generally the more threating targets as far as Warframe movement goes. Ideally we should be able to use Spectral or Effigy to cause widespread slow if we needed to. It is part of the reason Cold needs to be redone from the very start.

[Conflux59]

I figured making a new topic with my question would end up getting shoved in here eventually like everything else chroma.

In regards to reworks, I wanted to bring up Chromas current difficulty ceiling and get others' opinions and experiences with the current state of the game.

Elite Alerts - I have yet to experiment with him in elite alerts myself.  Maybe it's the fear factor of generally wasting time + letting my team down ...thus wasting their time or putting added strain on them... not sure exactly.  Very curious about others experiences using him in those.

ESO - Use him often, but I'm noticing as time goes on it's more like trying to squeeze the last drops of water from a sponge regarding getting the most out of his kit for ESO.  He seems to hold up semi decently for the first few rooms, that's still dependant on the room/team/and enemy type itself.  After the first handful I've noticed a very* steep decline in him "functioning" whatsoever.  Not even in the conversation of being useful so he needs to be carried.  I almost* never use Effigy, if I do it's dependant on how the current team is doing in that circlular Orokin room with the tree in the center if we decide to huddle.  I keep 2 and 3 up, though EW is very close to being worthless.  Basically my reason for continuing to use it is it does "enough to be worth the energy" for myself and the team, and it's there.  When vex armor stops doing much for the level of enemies, that's the steep drop I meantioned.  Because chroma has zero synergy between moves that's worth anything for mid-high level enemies, nor any specific skills that keep him useful in the way of consistently damaging enemies, defensive skills to keep himself alive, CC skills to keep himself alive and/or to assist the team (effigy's ..screech thing? is too random/inconsistent)  so his bag of trick(s) run out quickly in ESO, in my experience.

Fortuna - Not much to say on this yet* on my end... he seems alright.  I haven't had much trouble with any content so far, but at the same time I can't say he's been super great either.  His ehp can* still be a fragile thing even to enemies in this range... which ...  ;(

I'm looking forward to reading others experiences and points of view

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

11 hours ago, Conflux59 said:

I figured making a new topic with my question would end up getting shoved in here eventually like everything else chroma.

In regards to reworks, I wanted to bring up Chromas current difficulty ceiling and get others' opinions and experiences with the current state of the game.

Elite Alerts - I have yet to experiment with him in elite alerts myself.  Maybe it's the fear factor of generally wasting time + letting my team down ...thus wasting their time or putting added strain on them... not sure exactly.  Very curious about others experiences using him in those.

ESO - Use him often, but I'm noticing as time goes on it's more like trying to squeeze the last drops of water from a sponge regarding getting the most out of his kit for ESO.  He seems to hold up semi decently for the first few rooms, that's still dependant on the room/team/and enemy type itself.  After the first handful I've noticed a very* steep decline in him "functioning" whatsoever.  Not even in the conversation of being useful so he needs to be carried.  I almost* never use Effigy, if I do it's dependant on how the current team is doing in that circlular Orokin room with the tree in the center if we decide to huddle.  I keep 2 and 3 up, though EW is very close to being worthless.  Basically my reason for continuing to use it is it does "enough to be worth the energy" for myself and the team, and it's there.  When vex armor stops doing much for the level of enemies, that's the steep drop I meantioned.  Because chroma has zero synergy between moves that's worth anything for mid-high level enemies, nor any specific skills that keep him useful in the way of consistently damaging enemies, defensive skills to keep himself alive, CC skills to keep himself alive and/or to assist the team (effigy's ..screech thing? is too random/inconsistent)  so his bag of trick(s) run out quickly in ESO, in my experience.

Fortuna - Not much to say on this yet* on my end... he seems alright.  I haven't had much trouble with any content so far, but at the same time I can't say he's been super great either.  His ehp can* still be a fragile thing even to enemies in this range... which ...  ;(

I'm looking forward to reading others experiences and points of view

I have used only Chroma in Elite alerts and he does fine. Only died once so far in 20-30 runs

I always do well in regards to damage with the arca plasmor..