I really like how Pablo reworks and balances Warframes

[Levanthan]

2 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

So pablo is the ideal but I would caution making bold statements to put a frame into like you did with Harrow and nidus.  I'm a nidus main with 70% at over 2k hours.  While the design is geared that way, the beauty is you don't have to use it that way to be effective.  If anything nidus is more effective the way i use him in 99% of missions which isnt that.

I stated that within the post you quoted. Pablo gears warframes to do specific things very well, but you're not FORCED into it, unlike many other frames. Nidus can function well in spy and exterminate, for example, because he's naturally tanky and has passive health regen but he's not going to be anywhere close to the best at it. If anything, he can link and buff up a fast execution dps like Excal for exterminate or use larva to cc enemies for spy. Similar with Harrow with his constant shield stacking and fast cast CC on condemn. Nezha is now a great mobile tanky support who debuffs enemies and cleanses allies. Doesn't mean he can't do other things, but he's not going to outmatch a Saryn or Mesa or Octavia in dps unless the mission level is low.

[Levanthan]

2 hours ago, felixsylvaris said:

Fanboyism is an infestacion and need to be purged, we need to buff Ember for just scorching stupid ideas.

At some point DE Pablo will make a mistakes, or the changes will be not enought or something. So do not get too exited.

That being said, Saryn and Nezha was a nice job. Looking forward to future.

He did the first Saryn rework, he admitted that he #*!%ed up very badly. He's very willing to learn and admit mistake as he did with his re-rework of Saryn's spores also. I'm not fanboying, I just notice which frames I gravitate towards when I think "that looks fun and not frustrating", even when I don't want to play them. No mass public outcry has to happen to get Pablo's ear, I'd like more of that.

[Madway7]

On 2018-09-15 at 1:14 PM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Pretty sure that one was censored so i say it again: Pablo did make misstakes allready.

Saryns rework did have a self spread on release and didn't decay in eso later, difference to anything else so far though was that it was rebalanced immediatly after people and probably he himself got to test it.

That's the fine difference between his work and anything else we had so far... it's not only that his work is on spot, it also gets adjusted pretty fast should it not be. He does make misstakes but actually admits to it and does what's best. 

So you're saying his mistake was that he made a frame too good? =D

 

But really, the only mistake I found he made so far was making it so that Harrow's 3 did not give teammates any energy from their kills within the aura. 

This would not have been an issue if Harrow was not promoted to be a support frame, but he was. And he turned out to be a weird support glass cannon hybrid that needs to be kind of selfish to support his teammates.

Besides that I love how Pablo has done things so far, and that he made Nezha more team friendly compared to the other frames he had a hand in making/reworking.

I would have been really curious how Revenant would have turned out if Pablo had made his abilities instead of Rebecca, but I guess now I'll have to settle for seeing how Garuda turns out. (Because Revenant is a weird mess imo)

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Madway7

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Madway7:

So you're saying his mistake was that he made a frame too good? =D

 

Yep, even if many people are in denial about it but there's a balancing point in this game.

The original release allowed it to kill ... literal hours worth enemies with a single activation. Add that it didn't decay in eso and you could frickin afk after pressing her 1 once per wave (what people gladly did)

It probably wouldn't have been THAT much of an issue in normal game modes but it literally broke eso so he actually did go ahead and fixed it right when it was made public by changing the basic functionality rather then tweaking it so it requires input to be just as fantastic.

 

...compare that to lets say ember who've been afk'ing in any content that wasn't endless for years before anything was changed at all and when it got, it was nothing but nerfed. That's some fantastic work right there that definitly deserves the praise.

Edited September 16, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[felixsylvaris]

Something to consider is that too good frame will be played alot, and valuable feedback will come in decent amount, including stuff like "this animation looks funny". Poor frame is not even played for proper testing.

You can always mess around with numbers, like change 100k to 200*AP. Or 99%DR to 90%DR.

[Levanthan]

14 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

Something to consider is that too good frame will be played alot, and valuable feedback will come in decent amount, including stuff like "this animation looks funny". Poor frame is not even played for proper testing.

You can always mess around with numbers, like change 100k to 200*AP. Or 99%DR to 90%DR.

But every frame get played a lot at release. This game thrives off new content and people in general love shiny new things. No one realizes what's "too good" or "poor" until others play it and give their input. It's after long periods of ignoring that these pieces of information either get ignored, or not enough thorough testing is done in order to learn the finer and hidden intricacies. Gara is a good example of this. People quickly learned about her ult being able to wall in sortie hostages, but it was very uncommon knowledge that grineer lancers and any enemy with a projectile like attack can just run dead into the wall and still fire in because their weapon is considered "inside" when they raise it to attack. That bug was never fixed, even though they quickly changed how her ult worked from duration based and impenetrable to health based. Some things are just prioritized more than others.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Levanthan

[Buttaface]

Didn't read whole thread. Whoever is responsible for Saryn did a -bad- job (sick to back teeth of 4 spam Saryns everywhere, let alone the spores, far worse than Ember or Ash ever were), and there are -many- warframes that should have been ahead of Nezha in the rework line IMO.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Buttaface

[blacklusterseph]

I'll have to agree to disagree with OP. The Saryn rework was and is terrible. Given how overtuned it is now it makes it impossible to go back and fix it without reddit losing its collective S#&$. I'd still prefer a modest split in the workload. We don't need Pablo bricking every frame in the game. Just keeping him on a limited set is fine. The more funadmental problems in the gameplay of Warframe itself is only exascerbated by what he has done so far, but I don't blame him for that. The lategame design is somewhat directionless at the moment and it's not really his job to fix that as far as we know.

[Levanthan]

18 minutes ago, blacklusterseph said:

I'll have to agree to disagree with OP. The Saryn rework was and is terrible. Given how overtuned it is now it makes it impossible to go back and fix it without reddit losing its collective S#&$. I'd still prefer a modest split in the workload. We don't need Pablo bricking every frame in the game. Just keeping him on a limited set is fine. The more funadmental problems in the gameplay of Warframe itself is only exascerbated by what he has done so far, but I don't blame him for that. The lategame design is somewhat directionless at the moment and it's not really his job to fix that as far as we know.

Given that Saryn was a stand-still-and kill-everything-in-a-moderate-range that required a few specific setups to accomplish while existing for years didn't stop him from deeming her still worth reworking, against the wishes of reddit, I doubt that he'd all of a sudden lose his courage to fix what he thinks is bad execution if he thinks he has a better idea to replace it with, which is how recent Saryn came to be. I don't agree with or like her "I'm god" approach at DPS, but that's been and seems it will always be a fundamental issue with Warframe that many of the playerbase embrace. Maiming Strike, Mesa, invisibility and every bit of Mirage aoe weapon cheese being past and current examples of that being true. At the least, he made her easier to understand and access and at the most, he made her not have to rely on that strategy to be effective. I'd rather Saryn have multiple fun and fair tools in her arsenal and have cheese than just have cheese. That means that I or anyone else who don't want to utilize the cheese has the option of not doing so and still being effective and having fun. 

I never said that Pablo should be the exclusive developer or reworker of frames. I just said that I would prefer his methods be made standard. Techniques and practices can be learned, they're not exclusive to one person. The late game design has always been and will likely always be directionless. They want the game to be bite sized and casual friendly, so anything requiring mostly/only skill won't be implemented. Warframe is all about gear, Pablo had nothing to do with that. 

[Ventura_Highway]

In general I'd say I tend to like how his Warframes end up for a number of the reasons already stated in the thread, so perhaps instead I'll try criticizing his designs.

I'm mostly thinking about Harrow and Nidus when I write this, but it seems to me like these two frames thrive very well in endless mission types like Survival or Defense, but I tend to think their kits are not nearly as effective in fast mission types like exterminate where you're rapidly moving from tile to tile. Nidus doesn't have time to build up, and Harrow doesn't have the enemy density to generate shields and energy with, or the time to really appreciate the boost from Covenant.

There's nothing really wrong with having different jobs for different Warframes though. I guess I'm curious to see if Garuda, who I think is another of Pablo's Warframes, will follow the same trend. I suppose with Nidus, you can easily adapt him to these fast mission types by working around using Larva simply to bunch up enemies for shooting and neglecting power strength, but the chaos and lack of guarantee of enemies to turn into shields and energy for Harrow makes it harder to use him.

 

I might say, if DE shouldn't put Pablo in charge of a rework, I'd probably avoid having him rework the Operators and probably making them even more effective than most of the Warframes they pilot..

Edited September 17, 2018 by Ventura_Highway

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

...

[Eirshy]

Not gonna lie, with the way Pablo's reworks have been going, I'm kinda very hoping that he gets the reigns for the Titania one.

[Levanthan]

14 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

...

And sadly, this is about the most amount of fun you can have on Octavia because her metronome gives % armor bonus, and a small one at that, for a frame that has sub 200 armor. She's squishy as a paper bag, which forces you to use her mandatory and broken invisibility ad infinitum. Resonator is too inconsistent to work as reliable CC to keep her safe, which is unfortunate for me because I really like that skill.

[Arcira]

On 2018-09-15 at 6:38 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

all the devs at Digital Extreme's are hard workers. this disgusting display of praise should stop. nezha barely needed any work done in the first place. any of them could have made these changes.

Probably but that doesn´t mean the work that has been done is less valuable. Sometimes a simple change is all that´s needed. Also I think it´s important to give feedback about reworks player like. If you only complain about stuff you don´t like it might be demotivating.

[EinheriarJudith]

35 minutes ago, Arcira said:

Probably but that doesn´t mean the work that has been done is less valuable. Sometimes a simple change is all that´s needed. Also I think it´s important to give feedback about reworks player like. If you only complain about stuff you don´t like it might be demotivating.

i think you need to point this at someone else because im on the side of all their work is valuable. the title of the thread was changed from "pablo is the ideal " to what it is now for obvious reasons. and some comments were removed, just incase you didnt notice.

[(PSN)psycofang]

On 2018-09-15 at 12:38 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

all the devs at Digital Extreme's are hard workers. this disgusting display of praise should stop. nezha barely needed any work done in the first place. any of them could have made these changes.

Youre implying they would have done the same? Im not saying its impossible for them but would they have done what pablo does? 

 

I dont think so. Looking a Revanant makes me think each of these devs are not a hive mind and everyone has different design philosophies. 

 

It just seems like Pablos stance is late scaling and general fluidity vs the other frames.

Edited September 18, 2018 by (PS4)psycofang

[EinheriarJudith]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Youre implying they would have done the same? Im not saying its impossible for them but would they have done what pablo does? 

 

I dont think so. Looking a Revanant makes me think each of these devs are not a hive mind and everyone has different design philosophies. 

 

It just seems like Pablos stance is late scaling and general fluidity vs the other frames.

as ive already said. mag's rework, oberon's rework, and ash's rework. i need not say anything else. all the frame devs working at DE have done a smashing job and continue to bring us players content we can enjoy.

pablo's work is not bad but singling him out when others are also working hard is utter garbage. how would you feel if people were telling you that you should be more like someone else when your contribution is just as good. i vote this thread should be closed.

Edited September 18, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)psycofang]

16 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

how would you feel if people were telling you that you should be more like someone else when your contribution is just as good.

Issue with that is -good- is subjective. Would you say Revanant or pre reworked mag or Ivaras many redundancies or Vaubans literal many redundancies are -good-? 

 

I wouldnt because personally ,imo of course i have to put that, they are not. Like an earlier poster showed Octavia is just bland to play and other WFs suffer from very strange design choices.

 

And ofc id feel bad if someone said my WF that has 4 tools that barely mesh well together, barely scale and feel clunky and slow to play because this means on some or many levels i didnt do a good job.

If im told to take notes from someone perceived as better ill research what they do and imploy my own style to make myself and my ideals mesh better

 

I already do that in my field as a RN, when im told X nurse does Y better i dont get upset and demand the discussion be shut down, i internalize the fact my ace wrap technique was flawed and toomk on someone elses more efficient methods add them to my own way to keep to my ideals of where pressure should be distributed and grow from it. 

 

Efforts are always appreciated but not every effort is equal, thats never how the world or perception works, when something is done well people flow to and flood around with it in their arms naturally. 

You can say everyone does a good job, subjectively like many who say they did not, like handing stars to everyone, its not wrong but if 2 or 3 people come out with a product and one product resonates too well with the masses obviously singing prasises follows because the mass opinion ,at current, rings "this is better" 

 

Look at ipod vs Zune both equal but one was better the other was never heard from again, both were not bad but people gravitated towards one and not the other 

Edited September 18, 2018 by (PS4)psycofang

[Ouinpis]

whatever,will end-up in more forma

[EinheriarJudith]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

~snip~

this isnt about someone doing a poor job and then someone else coming in and doing a better job. they are a TEAM at DE. praising one person in that team just demoralizes the whole team. if someone needs advice on a project im sure they discuss it internally thats how a team works. they all put forth the effort to make things work or fix whats broken. ive seen too many comments in different threads "pablo is doing garudo oh man its going to be good" "i hope pablo does chroma rework" "pablo this, pablo that" people dont realize he isnt the only frame dev and are quite quick to forget that other frames that are great to use were not reworked or made by him.

but im done. warframes are only one section of the game. as ive said a big thank you to DE team for continuing to evolve the game.

Edited September 18, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)psycofang]

9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this isnt about someone doing a poor job and then someone else coming in and doing a better job

That literally wasnt the point and you eloborating on team means you missed what i said. 

I repeatedly said no job was bad, subjectively, its about product resonanating with the consumer. Thats why i posted the Ipod vs Zune example.

This is also a professional position of selling an object ,digital, to a consumer base obviously criticisms and praise abound. If thats enough to break their feelings theyre in the wrong business, this happens in many avenues of business.

Edited September 18, 2018 by (PS4)psycofang

[Levanthan]

13 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i think you need to point this at someone else because im on the side of all their work is valuable. the title of the thread was changed from "pablo is the ideal " to what it is now for obvious reasons. and some comments were removed, just incase you didnt notice.

I can't remember if I changed the title before I posted the thread or not, but I know for a fact that I haven't removed any comments. I've made edits to add information, not even remove. I'm entirely fine with either title anyway because they convey much of the same message; Pablo(for the most part) does an amazing job of making warframes more user friendly and I'd like his PRACTICES to be made standard.

Things like UI addition per frame to further make them feel unique while providing a very visual "THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO, HERE YOU GO!!!" and a warframe energy economy that doesn't rely on pizza spam, zenurik, or any other easily exploitable and hard to balance external source of energy are PRACTICES that any dev can pick up and will go a long way for most every frame, unless someone has fun with inefficient energy economy and hard/impossible to identify buff numbers and icons.