Fed up with Sayrn being so stupid OP

[ZodiacShinryu]

36 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

we will just agree that we disagree. anyone who plays chroma will always use vex armor and elemental ward and maintain vex armor it isnt 90% weapons. i myself use effigy often

Most likely. But Vex is nothing but a vessel for your weapon (and survivability), if you don't have a weapon and you need to kill something Vex isn't going to help especially as you go up in levels. And Ward is also just buff that is primarily a support ability. That means if you need to complete any challenge that isn't simply sit there you will being doing most the work with your weapon. That is a heavy favor to weapons for a damage frame that is suppose to have 4 abilities. What I mean is you could drop Chroma into CoD and he would basically just be a juggernaut type target. Mostly shooter, less power play.

And just because you use it doesn't particularly make it useful to what you are doing. I can use Spectral Scream just because I like how it looks, doesn't particularly mean I am making good use of my resources or time. At the very least Saryn is more likely to use all her abilities to get things done.

Of the frames you listed I will say of the frames you listed, Mag, Volt and Ash have the most interesting mix of weapon play and power play. Followed by Ember, Mirage and Rhino because they have interesting build choices depending on what you want to do. I personally don't like Khora (but that might just be resentment from what she was suppose to be to what she is now). But Chroma? If you aren't boosting weapon damage (and survivability) you are wasting time. This coming from someone who really likes Chroma because he could be more than this.

[(XBOX)Elofy Wolf]

25 minutes ago, MrMrs said:

HA! Being a generally supportive teammate? THAT'S STUPID. IF THEY HAVE A PLAYSTYLE I DON'T LIKE I'LL JUST BE A $&*^ TO THEM.

 

Being serious though, wtf. People like you make this game cancerous. Octavia is just press 1234 and any buttons associated with buffs and you are good. I don't see how that's different from a saryn spamming 4. How is 4 spam from saryn different from Banshee spam, WoF (pre nerf) spam, Maim spam, EV spam, Defy spam, or any other ability in general? Oh wait, it's not. Honestly, if you can't handle that others have different play styles you need to get out of Warframe. Warframe isn't a game based on "skill" most people are only concerned with ultra cheesing this game. 

Saryan has no limitations all you can do is spec for range and she does viral damage which cuts right through their shields after fore ticks the enemy is on the floor dead. While Banshee's number fore doesn't go through shields and the enemy isn't instantly dead unless you have her argument mod for her. And yeah maybe you're right some warframes like Sarayn takes no skill to use, but Rhino takes no skill what's so ever to use and people still manage to fk him up. I mean if I'm an octavia doing more damage then A rihno then something isn't right. Rhino hands down is supposed to do the upmost damage and take the least amount of damage.

[MechaKnight]

Saryn feels overpowered because Overextended is overpowered. Every damage-dealing frame that felt overpowered and got nerfed for it used Overextended in their builds.

Warframe is a very unique game that allows players to modify ability stats with amounts and versatility rarely seen in other games, thus creating unique problems for the rare situations in games that are more common in Warframe.

In Warframe we can modify abilities and melee weapons to have more range. This brings about balance issues when one player option creates synergies with other player options to an excessive degree.

For example, Overextended, which I call the nerf bringer. This mod has been the core reason for frame ability rebalances for years since it was released. Frames rebalanced around this mod include but are not limited to: Ash, Banshee, Ember, Excalibur, Mag, Mesa, Mirage, Nova, Nyx, Oberon, Saryn, Trinity, Vauban, and Volt. For these mentioned frames throughout the years, a large-range radial ability has been altered (usually nerfed), although occasionally later the ability is buffed. This is usually the case when said frame has an ability that damages or stuns in a large area to the degree that it deletes or disables enemies long before they come close to players. This is the core cause of the Vivergate issues and trial attempts with line-of-sight range modification and improved enemy spawn algorithms. This is also the cause for defense and interception map reworks.

You can see this effect within the current standing meta-game. For radial area damage dealing competition amongst frames, there are Equinox, Mesa, Volt, and Saryn. Out of these 4 frames, 3 of them have their area-damage builds centralized around Overextended, while Mesa has an exceptionally large unmodifiable range but great damage and status potential. For buff and stun support we have Banshee and Octavia, with builds both centralized around Overextended for their usual build. For healers we have Harrow, Oberon, and Trinity. 2 of these frames have their range bound by affinity range rather than the ability range stat, and Oberon's healing support is unbound by range, while initiating his armor support requires teammates to stand on Hallowed Ground, which is increased by range stat, thus this becomes easier/better with this stat.

Overextended centralizes these builds by attracting players to use the mod for the "good builds." If you're not using this mod, your build just doesn't work so well for the same goal.

I would consider Overextended to be an item which overcentralizes builds, but I'm not satisfied with the usual end result of this issue in most Warframe circumstances. Rather than rebalance this one mod, the aforementioned long list of frames I mentioned had various tweaks to address their range, and future added frame abilities are built to avoid excessive range effect like Revenant's Danse Macabre. It would make more sense to buff all warframe abilities by 10% to 15% larger, and rebalance Overextended to be less extreme; that single range mod adds as much range as the other 3 mods combined. The end result of that approach is all frame builds with or without range mods would have more range, except for builds with Overextended which would be less effective than pre-rework conditions. The devs usually chose to nerf ability range, but all that did was turn Overextended from a mandatory mod to break the game to a mandatory mod to have the frame perform adequately. Meanwhile Melee 3.0 aims to rework how melee range mods work completely thanks to the overcentralized melee spin builds.

Warframe is a unique game that creates unique problems, and as such in needs to create unique solutions.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[Kilrane]

I kept pace with Saryn as Titania. Time to re-evaluate.

[EinheriarJudith]

22 minutes ago, Kilrane said:

I kept pace with Saryn as Titania. Time to re-evaluate.

good for you. so funny how you didnt specify wether it was a rank 30 saryn. it could have been a saryn trying to lvl up. how about we do kuva survival i want to see you try your best against my saryn.

[MechaKnight]

4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

good for you. so funny how you didnt specify wether it was a rank 30 saryn. it could have been a saryn trying to lvl up. how about we do kuva survival i want to see you try your best against my saryn.

Your good Saryn build is probably using Overextended. The good Equinox and Volt builds also use Overextended. As did the Ember, Nova, Nyx, and Trinity area-damage builds before they were nerfed. Consider that we fix the root of the problem instead of nerfing more frames repeatedly.

Overextended should be changed to a more balanced set of stats like +35% range -15% strength, so instead of losing 2 Intensify mods for 2 Stretch mods you lose half of an Intensify for about Stretch mod.

The way I envisioned a range overhaul, all warframe abilities would have their ranges increased by 12%, and the range mods would become 30/35/25/15 mounted on a 1.12 base instead of the current 45/90/30/15 mounted on a 1.00 base. The result: all frame builds would actually have greater range than before, but builds with overextended would have less range than before.

The numbers are tentative but the plan seems solid: increase overall player ranges, reduce the importance of range mods, and decrease Overextended so it is no longer so overwhelmingly disruptive. While I'm at it, let's add a mod called "Exhausted Prowess" that will add +40% efficiency in exchange for -45% strength, which will give players another way to decrease strength in exchange for another path towards more efficiency. The efficiency stat is currently capped, but this is a method to enable classic negative-strength builds.

Of course players would meta-game, but that's only because they want to do that. It's more stressful to coordinate 4 players than to dominate a map single-handedly. People play the way they want, and most people wouldn't want to do that. The same people who would bring 4 nuke frames to camp all 4 corners are the same people who would bring 4 Excalibur Umbra frames with rivened Khom and roost them into the rafters of the Index while they hide in operator mode. The goal is to promote fun and fix a problem as effectively as possible. The meta-game can still exist and meta-play is still allowed, but heavily disruptive outliers will be smoothed out and warframes previously nerfed in the circumstances of the disruptive mod could be buffed to be great all-around instead of only great with Overextended.

That said, imagine if every warframe got more range to use regardless of their build? The only loss is having less range with Overextended on.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[Kilrane]

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

good for you. so funny how you didnt specify wether it was a rank 30 saryn. it could have been a saryn trying to lvl up. how about we do kuva survival i want to see you try your best against my saryn.

Thought Rank 30 was implied since that's really what we're talking about here isn't it?

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

good for you. so funny how you didnt specify wether it was a rank 30 saryn. it could have been a saryn trying to lvl up. how about we do kuva survival i want to see you try your best against my saryn.

He's most likely referring to raw damage percentage, like others before him. Too bad enemies can't be deader than dead and for pretty much all relevant, aleged "endgame" content only the latter is of importance so that whole point is rather moot...

Edit: The problem concerns the common gaming experience, not the looking at a number for a few seconds after that experience

Edited October 9, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[EinheriarJudith]

4 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

~snip~

i actually loath overextended.

[MechaKnight]

7 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i actually loath overextended.

I have various frame builds, and over the years what I noticed is if a frame feels powerful and people want it nerfed, Overextended is the culprit. When I run a Saryn build without Overextended Spores feels like a damage-oriented variant of Volt's Shock or Banshee's Sonic Boom.

Then when I stack of Stretch, Overextended, and Augur Reach, wow.

There are many people out there who stack Cunning Drift in there for full 280% range stat, then stack as much strength as they want. Those are the people who attract nerfs across the history of Warframe for years. Although Augur Reach and Cunning Drift are relatively new mods, Overextended was the same +90% range powerhouse it always was. You have to add the other 3 mods just to get that same result. When you use all 4, you have +180% range. Any area-of-effect frame feels overpowered with that range, so DE either nerfs the frame's range or changes the range to work off duration stat instead.

I'm tired of the relentless frame nerf cycle. DE saw it at full effect during Vivergate and pushed cooldowns and line-of-sight to the playerbase while they engineered frame range nerfs in the back end to wrap into the next frame rework. Warframe is a unique game with unique issues, and we can mod our stats like few games allow us to do. Of course, it is a learning experience for everyone. DE learned that such mod stats are disruptive, especially for something as important as range. It is the basis of the melee 3.0 rework.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[EinheriarJudith]

3 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

I have various frame builds, and over the years what I noticed is if a frame feels powerful and people want it nerfed, Overextended is the culprit. When I run a Saryn build without Overextended Spores feels like a damage-oriented variant of Volt's Shock or Banshee's Sonic Boom.

Then when I stack of Stretch, Overextended, and Augur Reach, wow.

There are many people out there who stack Cunning Drift in there for full 280% range stat, then stack as much strength as they want. Those are the people who attract nerfs across the history of Warframe for years. Although Augur Reach and Cunning Drift are relatively new mods, Overextended was the same +90% range powerhouse it always was. You have to add the other 3 mods just to get that same result. When you use all 4, you have +180% range. Any area-of-effect frame feels overpowered with that range, so DE either nerfs the frame's range or changes the range to work off duration stat instead.

id be all for it. ive already stated that AOE range needs a cap or rebalanced. a frame can have killing power without needing to kill the whole map. look at bladestorm. bladestorm will kill tough enemies you have to empty whole magazines into.

Edited October 9, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[MechaKnight]

7 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

id be all for it. ive already stated that AOE range needs a cap or rebalanced. a frame can have killing power without needing to kill the whole map. look at bladestorm. bladestorm will kill tough enemies you have to empty whole magazines into.

I edited my previous post Judith, sorry about that. I nostalgically remember Ash 2.0 and bringing a 1-forma Ash Prime into radiation proc sorties for defense or interception before his next Bladestorm rework. It auto-targeted 25 enemies so I stabbed every enemy. If myself or teammate got rad procced I stabbed them too as an act of rebellion against what I thought was clearly awful ability design. 97 to 99% damage achieved for my team single-handedly.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight
Grammar fix.

[EinheriarJudith]

8 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

I edited my previous post Judith, sorry about that. I nostalgically remember Ash 2.0 and bringing a 1-forma Ash Prime into radiation proc sorties for interception or defense before his next Bladestorm rework. I stabbed every enemy. If my teammates get rad procced I stabbed them too as an act of rebellion against what I thought was clearly awful game design. 97 to 99% damage achieved for my team single-handedly.

hahahaha. im glad ash is the way he is now. with saryn, how she just kills whole rooms/map with almost no effort just does no good for the game. if people feel the game is so tedious they have to find ways to skip playing, something definitely needs to be done. when we talk about horde games and most are coop all the fun gets sucked out when one player in the squad gets to do everything and the others get nothing to do. at that point those people are not interacting with the game, they are just hitting queue and wating for the prize at the end. i dont want that for warframe at all.

Edited October 9, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[MechaKnight]

1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

hahahaha. im glad ash is the way he is now. saryns killing power is not in question but how she just kills whole rooms/map with almost no effort just does no good for the game. if people feel the game is so tedious they have to find ways to skip playing, something definitely needs to be done. when we talk about horde games and most are coop all the fun gets sucked out when one player in the squad gets to do everything and the others get nothing to do. at that point those people are not interacting with them game, they are just hitting queue and wating for the prize at the end. i dont want that for warframe at all.

I agree. She's my favorite frame and as much as I think she has the best thematically appropriate gameplay she has ever had since her birth in update 9 I recognize the issue. She's currently on the 5th ability iteration I can recall. That said, Equinox and Volt dominate harder than Saryn in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught when they're prepared, but still use Overextended the nerf bringer.

[Bouldershoulder]

On 2018-09-16 at 12:29 AM, Thaylien said:

this one really, really enthusiastic Nidus, who didn't get that I was just driving my funnels to wherever he was using Larva to get free CC ^^

I'll tell you what you were doing, you were blocking his larva from grabbing anything (I discovered this firsthand these weekend). The same goes in regards to scoring more damage, your tornadoes were blocking other sources of damage like hard walls. No pride in this.

[EinheriarJudith]

Just now, MechaKnight said:

I agree. She's my favorite frame and as much as I think she has the best thematically appropriate gameplay she has ever had since her birth in update 9 I recognize the issue. She's currently on the 5th ability iteration I can recall. That said, Equinox and Volt dominate harder than Saryn in Elite Sanctuary Onslaught when they're prepared, but still use Overextended the nerf bringer.

i think they might dominate over her because they need no target to dispense death over a large area. in equinox case once she has enough charge built up, she can press 1 button and delete the room, with volt its the same as saryn only he needs no target to proliferate that electricity.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, Bouldershoulder said:

I'll tell you what you were doing, you were blocking his larva from grabbing anything (I discovered this firsthand these weekend). The same goes in regards to scoring more damage, your tornadoes were blocking other sources of damage like hard walls. No pride in this.

You resurrected this 9 pages into the thread without reading any of the conversation that followed. Well done, have a cookie.

[Bouldershoulder]

Just now, Thaylien said:

You resurrected this 9 pages into the thread without reading any of the conversation that followed. Well done, have a cookie.

Thanks. I'll brew some tea

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 minutes ago, Bouldershoulder said:

Thanks. I'll brew some tea

Good show old chap ^^

[MechaKnight]

5 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i think they might dominate over her because they need no target to dispense death over a large area. in equinox case once she has enough charge built up, she can press 1 button and delete the room, with volt its the same as saryn only he needs no target to proliferate that electricity.

Yup. Saryn uses Spores with Overextended to do what she is known to do. Without Overextended walking through most content, she usually infects less than 10 enemies for 25 to 200 on the spore counter before the ability and counter expire. Then when I boat the range mods to achieve at least 265% range like mostly any AoE damage-dealer in this game does, that's when the big numbers come. That's why I dread that mod in its current state, it is the inevitable nerf bringer.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

Yup. Saryn uses Spores with Overextended to do what she is known to do. Without Overextended walking through most content, she usually infects less than 10 enemies for 25 to 200 on the spore counter before the ability and counter expire. Then when I boat the range mods to achieve at least 265% strength like mostly any AoE damage-dealer in this game does, that's when the big numbers come. That's why I dread that mod in its current state, it is the inevitable nerf bringer.

maybe it is time for them to completely shift into the open world where range means absolutely nothing. though they will have to do better with their open world pacing. PoE is "roll my eyes" into the back of my head boring.

[trndr]

19 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

over the years what I noticed is if a frame feels powerful and people want it nerfed, Overextended is the culprit

Mesa didn't use overextended when it got mag nerfed. Nore did it use overextended when Mesa got nerfed.

Rhino hasnt been nerfed even if the only decent team build uses overextended.

Nuke Limbo was not OP due to range, but due to how the calculation was done.

Ember was not OP, even pre range nerf it was just a cc frame over level 30.

Ash pre rework was activly helping enemies with overextended and bladestorm.

Quake Banshee didn't would be just as good pre nerf if it didnt have overextended.

 

Blaming overextended is a cheap tactic, and if you actually look at the frames that have been called OP, the thing they have in common is the abilities aren't limited by line of sight (mesa is the exception, but DE wanted it to be stupid OP).

Sure many frames are much better with overextended, but few low armor frames have any survivability without it.

All abilities could be line of sight limited without wrecking any frame.

[MechaKnight]

42 minutes ago, trndr said:

Mesa didn't use overextended when it got mag nerfed. Nore did it use overextended when Mesa got nerfed.

Rhino hasnt been nerfed even if the only decent team build uses overextended.

Nuke Limbo was not OP due to range, but due to how the calculation was done.

Ember was not OP, even pre range nerf it was just a cc frame over level 30.

Ash pre rework was activly helping enemies with overextended and bladestorm.

Quake Banshee didn't would be just as good pre nerf if it didnt have overextended.

 

Blaming overextended is a cheap tactic, and if you actually look at the frames that have been called OP, the thing they have in common is the abilities aren't limited by line of sight (mesa is the exception, but DE wanted it to be stupid OP).

Sure many frames are much better with overextended, but few low armor frames have any survivability without it.

All abilities could be line of sight limited without wrecking any frame.

You cherry picked your examples skillfully, but not well enough.

Mesa has 60 meters range on Peacemaker, while half her kit is devoted to defending herself and her first ability buffs one shot.

Rhino doesn't spam damage or crowd control relentlessly because Stomp has a cooldown.

Limbo is one of DE's highly experimental frames. Limbo has plenty of range, and developers intended he would work by creating zones of potential damage and control. His nuke gameplay was not intended, but his generous Cataclysm range was.

Ember was nerfed because she dealt damage automatically in the area around her, which became considerably large with range-mod stacking including Overextended. She wasn't amazing in high-tier content especially against armored enemies, but warframe's progression issue tends to motivate highly-geared players towards low level zones.

Ash's Bladestorm was reworked multiple times. The iteration that allowed him to automatically target 25 enemies within ability range enabled him to kill 25 enemies anywhere in range very quickly. It was highly exploitable in sorties to dominate in radiation condition to deal 97 to 99% of the team's damage single-handedly while you purposely down your own teammates.

Quake Banshee always relied on Overextended to increase her range. She was mostly used for crowd control in trials but dealt damage which was useful for solar system farming.

Meanwhile frame abilities like Mag's Polarize and Nyx's Absorb were nerfed due to how their proportionally effective their enemy-based scaling was, while not suffering at all from any loss in power strength and only gaining from more range stat.

Yes, I'm aware of DE's line-of-sight attempts during Vivergate, and while that is a good option to consider I have proposed an alternative range economy that buffs base ability range in a way that would buff all builds regardless of which range-altering mods they used, except for builds with Overextended which would be less effective.

Current mod stats: 1.0 base range with mods contributing 45/90/30/15 range.
New mod stats: 1.12 base range with mods contributing 30/35/20/15 range.
The base multiplies with any range on top of it, thus Stretch would be slightly better than it is now, while Augur Reach and Cunning Drift would be buffed. Overextended builds would be less effective but the penalty would be decreased to make the mod overall more stat-positive, from +90% range and -60% strength to +35% range and -20 strength. Add new mod "Exhausted Prowess" for +40% efficiency -45% strength, and you have yet another viable option for kits.

While you mentioned line-of-sight as a viable option, I also suggested a range stat rework that would overall buff ability ranges while normalizing its highest outlier to be more stat-positive, and introducing a new and exciting balanced corrupted mod.

Frames like Saryn only feel overpowered when stacking range mods, which most players do to stack 265% to 280% range on damage-dealing frames. Without such range mod stacking, Spore in the solar system only manages to infect under 10 enemies with spore counter from 25 to 200 before dissipating completely. In content like sorties or kuva floods, the spores can persist higher, but without Overextended you'll barely break past 500 on the counter with again under 10 enemies infected, unless the mission clusters them. When you add Overextended and stack more range mods, that's where the spore magic happens. As did the Molecular Prime magic back on Nova 1.0 where every enemy died to Nova faster than what Saryn does now.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MechaKnight

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

7 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

She wasn't amazing in high-tier content especially against armored enemies, but warframe's progression issue tends to motivate highly-geared players towards low level zones.

This is what I was going to say regarding Ember.. 

Everyone always argues "Well, she was only overpowered on the star chart!". They always seem to disregard the fact that it's most of the game, and that high end progression forces players back to low level areas constantly...in every update. That's why it was an issue, even if it fell short in the top 3% of content...

[trndr]

12 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

Mesa has 60 meters range on Peacemaker, while half her kit is devoted to defending herself and her first ability buffs one shot.

Afik no frame ability can have over 56m range Volt and Saryn, Equi is 3rd at 50.4m, and mesa has 50m range.

22 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

Meanwhile frame abilities like Mag's Polarize and Nyx's Absorb were nerfed due to how their proportionally effective their enemy-based scaling was, while not suffering at all from any loss in power strength and only gaining from more range stat.

I didn't mention Mag Polarize as I considered it a too niche build after corrupted got a shield drone reduction.

And the range was less than 50m with all mods and helmet at the time.

28 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

Quake Banshee always relied on Overextended to increase her range.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC Resonating Quake had no limit, so overextended only changed how much energy was required.

31 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

+35% range and -20 strength.

This would place it in the same pile as warm coat and intruder. No ammount of Legendary cores would protect DE from the flack they would get.