"power creep" (and rivens" =/= satan.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2018-09-25 at 8:37 PM, Obviousclone said:

You fail to understand that power is relative and whenever you make something that upsets the balance in power, you invalidate the existence of older content.

 

What's the point of using the sonicor if the atomos/asktiletto primes exist? All it exists now is to be mastery fodder that most players will skip. Which means the time DE spent working on that piece of content is now completely wasted.

 

If you play for powercreep, if you're okay with powercreep, then you hate the game at it's core because you don't want to play what the game has to offer, you'd rather see that content be rendered obsolete in favor of playing to the meta.

You're telling me what my opinions are and not only are you wrong, but you also miss the relevant point.

If "powercreep" didnt exist, if say, nothing better than x was ever released, there isnt a reason to bother with y. What would the point of using kit guns be, if they're not AT LEAST as good as the best secondaries we have now? Just because? Pass. Not many people are going to want to grind out several forma/potatoes and whatever else just for sidegrades that dont really help them feel more powerful. This game doesnt nerf, and wouldn't benefit from, a stream of new mastery fodder. We have enough.

Also, you're telling me I hate the game at its core? Really? I love this game.

You're telling me older stuff is "invalidated"? No, it isnt. Just because something better comes along, that doesnt mean the thing you had is suddenly useless. "Not too dog anymore" =/= "invalidated".

Is boltor prime as strong as tiberon prime? Nope. But it's not "invalidated".

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, Toran said:

I was speaking of Warframe... don't rip my sentence out of context. In Warframe you'll never get "balance" by nature of the Warframes' different roles alone (which can be mixed to some degree, but there always will be specialists).

I did not rip it out of context. In the same sentence you campared it with a "whack a mole", which is rather accurathe. The misstake you make is, that you think balance is a fixed state. It is not, especially not in a dynamic environment like a steadely evolving game. "The path is the goal" in case of Warframe.

1 hour ago, Toran said:

Just look at usage of Warframes at MR25, looks balanced enough to me when it comes to role usage, about 15 % stealth, 30% AoE, 20% Support and 30% CC - rest a gusto. Nothing out of hand... and that's what DE is actually looking at and changes when they see that change is needed.

Everyone, who worked with statistics can tell you - that poll is useless without additional information. Does those figures mean playtime, or started missions? What typ of missions? How long was mean session time? How long was the test time window and what happened in that time (events)? Are aborted missions included? etc. From that statistic alone I can tell you a fairetails about hobbits and dragons.

1 hour ago, Toran said:

Instead of looking what to nerf next we should look at what isn't hardly used at all (<1% usage), recognize why it's crap (seemingly) and think of ways to improve it.

Exscllently bad example how to fix problems. Now a showcase it cannot solv: magnetic damage. Magnetic damage was designed as a tool to destroy shields. And it performes really really well. Unfortunatelly, toxic exists and makes magnetic obsolete, because it bypasses shields. As long as toxin exsits in its current state, magnetic will remain bad, despite its stellar performance vs. shields. Can you understand that you need to move from both sides towards a middle ground - balance requires nerfs & buffs. Unfortunatelly, we do not do that here.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2018-09-26 at 8:14 AM, rune_me said:

Well I don't use cheat codes either. And I never played a lego console game. And I still wish rivens didn't exist in Warframe.

Well, fortunately for you, you dont have to use them. At all. And any veiled rivens you get can easily be pawned off in trade chat without even opening them.

I couldn't care less about kubrow breeding but do you see me asking them to remove that from the game?

I dont understand why simply having the choice to not use them or mess with them at all isnt good enough for you. Why do you feel the need to see them removed for everyone else who does want them?

[DrBorris]

46 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Well, fortunately for you, you dont have to use them.

I hope you know that is not an actual argument in this case.

 

According to that logic, DE should just add a weapon that deals sniper-level damage in an AoE. It is not like you have to use it. If you want a challenge, then it is up to you to make the challenge for yourself, right? No, seriously. Don't call it hyperbolic because in some cases Rivens do exactly that. The best weapon for every class of weapon in the game is equipped with a Riven, it is unfair to respond with "you don't have to use it" when someone criticizes the most powerful end-game progression we currently have. Everyone should want to use Rivens, it is a failure of the system if that is not the case. Some people don't like peculiar mods, and that's fine because they are literally a detriment to your performance. If you had to make flowers on enemies to achieve your maximum power potential there would be a problem, but that's not the case.

You mention Kubrow breeding. Okay sure, but Kubrows are completely different from Rivens. You don't need a doggo to maximize your power, but you do need a Riven. And in addition, I find it hard to believe that anyone has such a distaste for Kubrows as some do for slot machines.

 

Also, what if I see Rivens as a foundation for a system that everyone would want to participate as end-game progression? Is it so bad for me to see Rivens, and want them to be less of an, I don't know, slot machine? Is my vision invalid because you don't want that? Is the status quo always greater than the possibility for change?

 

You act like it is all about people want to take away your toys, but from the other side it looks like you are the selfish kid saying "all the toys are mine". Take a step back, look at the big picture, what would be the best for Warframe? If you think Rivens as they are is the best for Warframe, give some actual reasons and stop dodging the question.

 

Edit: This is not about what is "fine", it is not about what "works", it is about what would be "best".

Edited September 27, 2018 by DrBorris

[ThorienKELL]

In short:

Yea I can see both sides reasoning. For old, very invested and rich players such as myself - rivens are awesome addition to the game. Honestly, if there weren't for rivens I would probably play much less then I'm playing now. 

For new and players that cannot or wish not to invest their money(or time) in game, they are annoying, unbalanced and unjust. 

Thing is - do you really need them? Does this game offer you enough power to play comfortably all the content and do all that you want efficiently and without rivens? Answer is yes. Does the gram, opticor, supra vandal, phantasma, lanka, or tigris prime need a riven to destroy 100 lvl sortie or ESO enemies? Hell no. 

Do I see a guy in the PUG and think "hey, this is a good player, he must have some nasty riven?" - no, not really. Skill, build, forma and mods do most of work. Rivens are just the cherry on the top. 

 

Therefore, you crybabies wouldn't get anything of substance, really if they were removed. But important part of player base would lose a lot. Hence rivens are good. All that think otherwise are bitter just because they don't have them ; )

[Snowbluff]

On 2018-09-25 at 9:20 PM, ConzyFTW said:

At this point rivens are the only thing I have to do in warframe that I enjoy, making a new weapon specifically for a riven you just picked up, rolled or found is amazingly satisfying. 

Likewise, no weapons really need to have their disposition nerfed, as long as the game doesn’t insentivise end game or high level missions with objectively harder enemies, the game will always be a cake walk where rivens aren’t needed for any content.

Yeah I like throwing a lot of effort into a weapon I like.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

5 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

In short:

Yea I can see both sides reasoning. For old, very invested and rich players such as myself - rivens are awesome addition to the game. Honestly, if there weren't for rivens I would probably play much less then I'm playing now. 

For new and players that cannot or wish not to invest their money(or time) in game, they are annoying, unbalanced and unjust. 

Thing is - do you really need them? Does this game offer you enough power to play comfortably all the content and do all that you want efficiently and without rivens? Answer is yes. Does the gram, opticor, supra vandal, phantasma, lanka, or tigris prime need a riven to destroy 100 lvl sortie or ESO enemies? Hell no. 

Do I see a guy in the PUG and think "hey, this is a good player, he must have some nasty riven?" - no, not really. Skill, build, forma and mods do most of work. Rivens are just the cherry on the top. 

 

Therefore, you crybabies wouldn't get anything of substance, really if they were removed. But important part of player base would lose a lot. Hence rivens are good. All that think otherwise are bitter just because they don't have them ; )

Amen, that's the logic these people will need a shrink to maybe understand.

It's just the good ol' jealousy, all of their arguments are fallacious.

I'm definetly dropping my support and besides having bought every prime access released, i bought four for my brother.

If my time and money invested goes down the drain, i'll see no reason to stay.

You can NEVER tell whether a person is using a riven or not, NEVER.

The only instance you're exposed to it is on trade chat, that's where the jealousy starts.

'Yo remove Ferrari from the market, it's op, I have a Lambo I swear but I want all of these expensive cars removed' -> Every Riven thread ever, except I'm yet to see the lambo. Ask them to show their supposed commitment to the rivens they allegedly have and they vanish.

[RX-3DR]

There is a difference between progression and power creep. I think you are getting some wires crossed on what the two terms are mostly used to describe. Progression is common in games, the end game weapons will always be better than the starting game weapons, there is nothing wrong with that. Power creep is mostly used to describe a situation where the introduction of new content is diminishing value in the current content. This is generally a bad decision in the long run because it stretches out the variance from start to end, padding out progression.

The problem with power creep is that it is often not within the scale of the progression, neither does it actually fit into the overall progress to begin with. It is simply designed to be stronger than something that exists. This creates a problem down the line because you end up in a weird spot where you can balance higher level content to the person doing 50x more damage, completely destroying that part of the game for everyone else, or you can leave the balance as it is, and you end up with the current situation we are at where everyone is constantly complaining that they "NEED CONTENT" to match a Riven that they paid an exorbitant amount for. This is also a big problem in the long run because you will set up a culture where the next weapon has to be stronger than the previous, creating a snowball effect that will completely demolish gameplay. You can see this happen with games quite easily if you look around, 200% conditional damage multiplier skills eventually become useless as you start seeing 400% unconditional damage multipliers and eventually, 800%.

Overall, power creep is always bad to the health of the game because is not tied into designed progress of the game. It is tacked onto the game at the end to try to one up and existing item to make it make people buy it by increasing the values of an existing item with no relation to how it fits into the game.

Secondly, on the topic of Rivens, the problem with Rivens stems not from their effect but how their effect is being applied. It is not being applied equally across the board, neither is it doing its original intent of bumping up the less popular and less effective weapons up to relevance. The excuse that they didn't balance it for X amount of time or people spent X amount of money, therefore, this system should not be changed is silly. Changes are made by looking at the intended design, looking at its current function and deciding if the system is not performing to its goal. If money and time is a factor for changes, then we should revert to the old modding system with Fusion Cores and Stamina because anyone can make the same claim.

Some Rivens are completely spoiling the market for every other weapon of the same class. the Tiberon basically spoils the function of every other Assault Rifle in the game because it does almost every job better. Under your original point, are we going to power creep the Tiberon with a new Assault Rifle that has 3 firing modes, an underbarrel Grenade Launcher and Chainsaw attachment that fires faster and harder with a 5 Riven Disposition? Sounds exaggerated but under your idea that power creep is good and we should avoid balancing existing content because someone invested emotions into it, that will happen in a year or two.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Flandyrll

[rune_me]

15 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Well, fortunately for you, you dont have to use them. At all. And any veiled rivens you get can easily be pawned off in trade chat without even opening them.

I couldn't care less about kubrow breeding but do you see me asking them to remove that from the game?

I dont understand why simply having the choice to not use them or mess with them at all isnt good enough for you. Why do you feel the need to see them removed for everyone else who does want them?

Not using them is not, and was never, a good argument. Everyone who is serious about the game, or just a little bit competetive, will of course use whatever is made available to have the best, most efficient build possible. I have absolutely no intention of artificially limiting myself. I will continue to use rivens like everyone else for as long as they are in the game, and I will continue to suggest that they shouldn't actually be in the game and that they are indeed satan.

And even if I did decide not to use them, they would still be there. Trade chat would still be spammed by scammers selling rivens. YouTube videos would still be full of builds that includes them. People would still ask for pricechecks and I would still have to explain to new clan members why rivens aren't as important as they've been told they are.

[rune_me]

10 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

Therefore, you crybabies wouldn't get anything of substance, really if they were removed. But important part of player base would lose a lot. Hence rivens are good. All that think otherwise are bitter just because they don't have them ; )

Dude, read the thread before you post. This myth has been debunked many times.

I have all the rivens I need. I have a five figure plat amount and nothing to spend it in.

And I think rivens suck and should be removed from the game. And yes, I would indeed get something of substance if they were removed: I would get a better game!

[ThorienKELL]

6 hours ago, rune_me said:

Dude, read the thread before you post. This myth has been debunked many times.

I have all the rivens I need. I have a five figure plat amount and nothing to spend it in.

And I think rivens suck and should be removed from the game. And yes, I would indeed get something of substance if they were removed: I would get a better game!

That's like, your opinion man. If they influence the game much in chat in prices in usage obviously ppl want them, use them and roll them because ppl. like OP stuff. Who are you to say how other people should have fun? SO you have all rivens and you actually spend your time, money and effort to get all the things that make your game ...worse somehow? I don't follow your logic, if that can be called the logic. I don't enjoy conclave, so I don't invest in it. But I could also make an argument that resources used there by DE should be used elsewhere, right?  And the people that are actually play it ... well tough luck. 

6 hours ago, rune_me said:

Not using them is not, and was never, a good argument. Everyone who is serious about the game, or just a little bit competetive, will of course use whatever is made available to have the best, most efficient build possible. I have absolutely no intention of artificially limiting myself. I will continue to use rivens like everyone else for as long as they are in the game, and I will continue to suggest that they shouldn't actually be in the game and that they are indeed satan.

And even if I did decide not to use them, they would still be there. Trade chat would still be spammed by scammers selling rivens. YouTube videos would still be full of builds that includes them. People would still ask for pricechecks and I would still have to explain to new clan members why rivens aren't as important as they've been told they are.

So you are competitive, you want best and more strongest ...but somehow dislike it still? What's wrong in customizing your weapon via riven. You know that sometimes newbies get good rivens and now suddenly they have weapon that can take them thru starchart, or can be sold and increase their plat reserve, but you don't think about them, right? It seems to me that you are mostly concerned how does this game feel to you and very little for the community in general. 

Look at it this way, you hate rivens, i like them - you always have option not to use them - while I don't have the option to use them if they were removed. So instead of influencing YOUR game which you can, you wanna force all players to play YOUR way, whether they like it or not. It's a really bad and inconsiderate idea. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by ThorienKELL

[rune_me]

3 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

That's like, your opinion man. If they influence the game much in chat in prices in usage obviously ppl want them, use them and roll them because ppl. like OP stuff. Who are you to say how other people should have fun? SO you have all rivens and you actually spend your time, money and effort to get all the things that make your game ...worse somehow? I don't follow your logic, if that can be called the logic. I don't enjoy conclave, so I don't invest in it. But I could also make an argument that resources used there by DE should be used elsewhere, right?  And the people that are actually play it ... well tough luck. 

I don’t really require you to understand my logic.

I never claimed people didn’t want them. I claimed they were a source of excessive powercreep in a game already plagued by it, and that therefor they are bad for the game. And for other players.

3 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

So you are competitive, you want best and more strongest ...but somehow dislike it still? What's wrong in customizing your weapon via riven. You know that sometimes newbies get good rivens and now suddenly they have weapon that can take them thru starchart, or can be sold and increase their plat reserve, but you don't think about them, right? It seems to me that you are mostly concerned how does this game feel to you and very little for the community in general. 

The Hek is available at mr 5. It can carry you through the starchart just fine. In fact, when I first got it, it made the starchart a walk in the park. Which is my whole point. This idea that a newbie needs a good riven to help them through the starchart, when nothing could be further from the truth. The weapons and mods in the game are already powerful enough. Rivens are just powercreep.

That same newb who got a good riven that made him breeze through the starchart, is the same player who will be here on these forums 2 months later complaining about how easy the game is, how we need harder content and how the game doesn’t carter to veterans, because his riven made everything way too easy for him.

3 hours ago, ThorienKELL said:

Look at it this way, you hate rivens, i like them - you always have option not to use them - while I don't have the option to use them if they were removed. So instead of influencing YOUR game which you can, you wanna force all players to play YOUR way, whether they like it or not. It's a really bad and inconsiderate idea. 

No, I want to influence the game, not you. I want the game to become better and more enjoyable for everyone. That’s really very considerate of me, if I do say so myself.

[ThorienKELL]

20 minutes ago, rune_me said:

1) I never claimed people didn’t want them. I claimed they were a source of excessive powercreep in a game already plagued by it, and that therefor they are bad for the game. And for other players.

2) No, I want to influence the game, not you. I want the game to become better and more enjoyable for everyone. That’s really very considerate of me, if I do say so myself.

1 - Powercreep is part of gaming industry since forever and no title, especially  that runs this long as WF is immune to it. Tell me how much would you be interested in that new and cool shotgun that is just tad weaker then your faithful ol' hek?

But you are aware that there is way to adress those problems, bit by bit. 2-3 yrs back we didn't have rivens but since then we've got kuva floods, sorties, noxes, null combas, regular bursas, ESO and lvl daily 100 content .... you see where I'm going with this? 

 

2 - Becoming better by removing content? That most of people like? That sounds more that you want everyone to have fun YOUR way. Other ways - bad ways, no good. No fun!

Edited September 28, 2018 by ThorienKELL

[Lost_Cartographer]

It used to be that I hated the power creep.

Now I just want to see a numbers crunch.  I don't mind the power creep, and I don't mind it for one reason:  I don't like needing to spend every one of my 8 slots upping my damage just to kill something level 30-60.  That's my "sweet spot."  Or rather, that's the place where enemy health gets chunky but not spongy and Grineer armor hasn't yet bloated into absurdity, and most guns in general feel comfortable around that range, but I can only really give up maybe one or two slots on a weapon for utilities like fire rate and reload speed, magazine size and recoil reduction, and with the $#!% values these kinds of mods (and/or the weapon's I'm slotting them into) tend to have, I often need to stack multiples of the same effect to get any noticeable difference out of a weapon, but then the damage is gimped to hell.

 

So yeah, I'm always open for more powerful guns.  In particular a semi-automatic handgun that doesn't have less than 10 rounds in the magazine.  But alternatively, I'll take more primed mods of the utility variety, though I'd prefer if the base forms got buffed to be worth the slot and mod point in middling content, and not just a hold over for newbies with nothing else to slot.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

On 2018-09-28 at 10:30 AM, rune_me said:

Dude, read the thread before you post. This myth has been debunked many times.

I have all the rivens I need. I have a five figure plat amount and nothing to spend it in.

And I think rivens suck and should be removed from the game. And yes, I would indeed get something of substance if they were removed: I would get a better game!

'Yo guys listen to me, all myths have been debunked by my empty claims.'

Not only 'having all rivens you need' means nothing, as it's even more useless to prove your commitment to them.

I have bought EVERY prime access released, and four of them i bought twice, for my brother.

I invested a lot of time and plat and money in the game.

You rob that from me, i'm out, me and the real persons who actually have what they claim and invested time into that.

Drop the false martyr claims.

[5H4DE]

Man I run around using Twirling Spire on a Zaw that looks like a fishing spear, the bloody Prisma Gorgon and the Fusilai. I've been playing this game on and off for years, I couldn't care less about power creep abd people complaining X or Y is too strong anymore. Unless I wanna do a serious endless run( in which case I'll most likely go solo), I just run with whatever seems like will be fun for me at the time or whatever I feel like semi-roleplaying. I know I'll have fun with the Kitguns( even if some won't be top tier I'm still crafting and forma'ing one of each type) and melee 3.0( this one especially).

As far as Rivens are concerned, the only major issue to me seems to be when an upgrade comes to a normally extremely weak weapon and said upgrade is equal to other top weapons. The riven pushes the upgrade above the others and makes it "mandatory meta". Maybe if the stats on rivens differentiated between vanilla and prime/insert-variation-here. Maybe have the disposition be based on a weapon's stats instead of popularity and have them independant between weapon variations, that way the normal gram could keep a 5/5 dispo while a gram prime could have a 2/5. Rivens would simply count the disposition upon equipping said riven and alter the numbers accordingly.

[CaptainMinty]

Firstly, let's knock Rivens out of the way. Rivens are meant to add supplemental power to weapons that are weaker than others and see less playtime. However, due to how the playerbase has treated Rivens, they have become a child of a so called meta. They are all used as a straight upgrade to a weapon's abilities. Instead of using them to alter the feel and playstyle of a weapon, they are just used as buffs to damage. Some weapons need this buff to damage, others don't. Are they good? Yes and no. The trading market has become nothing but a cacophony of players selling Rivens, and most of them are overpriced. 

Now. Let's talk about balance and being overpowered.

Firstly, being overpowered is something lore-friendly to Warframe. Tenno were and are gods of the battlefield, able to annihilate hundreds of soldiers with a but a flick of their wrists. Being overpowered is something we should have. However, a line needs to be drawn. Even a god of combat can be felled by a lowly soldier should he make a mistake at the wrong time. Right now standard high level content is not at the proper balance to give us that punishment. 

Balance. This is highly important. And I want to make this clear. We should be overpowered compared to our enemies. That is how Warframe should be. The question is how much? For the sake of gameplay, no one player should be able to dominate the end game material without issue. But Sorties are easy in solo due to how powerful our gear is. So how do we remedy the problem of end game players being so overpowered they trivialize content? Either one of three things (or all) need to happen. A rebalancing of our strongest of weapons. This way our weaker weapons indirectly get stronger, or if that isn't appealing, rework enemies to better handle the increased threat. Additionally, buffing the weaker weapons to become sidegrades or different playstyles equal to the strong weapons. Honestly I'd like to see an enemy armor and scaling rework, as well as new enemy types, and the biggest change to the way Warframe works, stop the release of weapons that are directly more powerful than the previous strong weapons. Honestly, the Gram is similar to the Scindo in strength, but somehow their primes are so vastly different in power. I don't understand how these weapons just keep getting better and better. The Rubico Prime is a great example of how to make a prime weapon that isn't blatantly op. It has great stats, yet doesn't overwhelm the other sniper rifles. They're all good variations on snipers. The Rubico is rewarding towards accuracy with an incredible crit stats, but suffers more to bodyshots due to a lower base damage. The Vectis is an all around sniper, being incredibly fast firing, while doing great base damage and having decent crit and status. The Lanka holds the highest overall damage but sacrifices hitscan and requires a charge up time like a bow. It's a perfect example of how sidegrades should work. But every melee that comes out is better than the last (particularly in the heavy blade category. Scindo was beat by War in damage, then came Galatine Prime, now Gram prime sits as king.)