Can something be done on the odds of obtaining all of Khora's pieces?

[KillaJoke1]

Okay I've been at this for awhile. Like I've been trying to farm her since Onslaught came out. At first I tackled this rather often and actually participating in the gamemode. Even finding it somewhat fun and engaging. But as time went on and other khora BP's and Relics stacked up I found myself pushing myself finding less enjoyment of the gamemode getting burnt out on it completely. I moved towards essentially automating it with Volt Prime when his relics became available. Every so often I take a few shots at getting khora, taking Volt, finding a little place to hide and barricading myself in and pressing 4 on cooldown for every single round. And this is just getting bonkers. 

  I'm not sure how this statistically breaks down in terms of Neo relics. But I'd say most of these are from onslaught. Or a good chunk of them are given how often I do hydron aswell. I have more neo relics than I could ever hope to open. I've received multiple khora blueprints. I specifically went out and got Volt prime purely for the sake of grinding for khora to automate something that has long since lost it's fun. 

  Mesa, Ivara, Nidus, Harrow most of the frames others have stated are a pain to obtain I've managed to get long before her and I started on her before attempting to get those. Having those two pieces with similar odds on the final rotation with the same low odds is just too much. It's put me at a point where spending plat to get it is a waste due to the other parts of her I've amassed. I mean come on... 4 Blueprints? Can't there atleast be some discount on the frame for owning the other parts to make it or an option to buy the last blueprint you need to complete a frame so it doesn't feel like a massive waste of time? 

Even when I try and push it out of my head and focus on getting focus that small "Come on khora systems." pops into my head only to be met with utter disappointment at yet another neo relic. I'm tired of the feeling of disappointment when I try and play this gamemode. I'm tired of feeling salty after being denied the last piece I need to construct a warframe over and over and over again.  Why did her BP have to be in the rotation aswell? Why did we break away from buying the blueprint from the market? I get it. It's probably some attempt to further push buying the frame from the market. But does it really need to go this far? To push the game to this level of drag where I feel the need to completely disengage from playing the gamemode and just automating the fun out of it? 

Edited October 9, 2018 by KillaJoke1

[Synpai]

CAN something be done? Yes.

WILL something be done? Very unlikely at this point seeing how the Devs are in full Fortuna release mode.

 

Kinda shooting everyone in the leg: Players that have her because they spent all the time; Players that don't have her because they will have to spend all the time (I think I'll just name these situations the Hema Effect).

Edited October 9, 2018 by Synpai

[KillaJoke1]

9 minutes ago, Synpai said:

CAN something be done? Yes.

WILL something be done? Very unlikely at this point seeing how the Devs are in full Fortuna release mode.

 

Kinda shooting everyone in the leg: Players that have her because they spent all the time; Players that don't have her because they will have to spend all the time (I think I'll just name these situations the Hema Effect).

Yeah I kinda feel like it's screaming into the void on this topic in particular, but hey why not take a shot at it? I guess it's more so just airing grief and frustrations and holding a shred of hope that it might change something. Better to get it out then let it stew in my head I suppose. 

 

Besides with the recent talk about the content drought and folks talking about leaving feedback during this time I might aswell. If it doesn't change anything whatever. If it does fantastic nobody else has to go through this.  If I do manage to get it at some point I wouldn't wish anyone would have to go through this slog.  I'd rather khora be content that's enjoyed rather than content that doesn't exist for a majority of players. 

[Buff00n]

Yeah, when you do the math, getting Khora is easily the highest time commitment among all normal frames, requiring around 30 runs/10 hours on average, with the 99th percentile at 30 hours.  That means 1 in 100 players will take longer than 30 hours to get Khora.

My only guess is at this point is that it's on purpose because, counting her cat, Khora is twice the MR of any other frame.

I'm still tweaking this thing, but I've been working on a RNG simulation you can run in your browser.  It includes a bunch of the various Frame grinds, including Khora's.  This is what the time chart looks like when you run a million simulations:

This shows the number of hours it took to obtain all four parts versus how many players took that many hours.  The average is marked at just below 10 hours.  You can see it peaks below 10 hours, but there's a long tail extending very far to the right.  The outliers are a killer on this, and unfortunately you are experiencing one of them.  

(The two-tone nature of this chart is due to the small percentage of players who get both Rotation C rewards before the A and B ones, and start bailing early). 

One thing my simulation allows me to do is see what difference simply removing the BP from the drop table makes:

Sadly, it doesn't make as much difference as you'd like.  It cuts the average from 10 hours down to about 7 1/2 hours, with the 99th percentile going down to about 26 1/2 hours.

On that same page you can compare the Khora grind against other heavy grinds like Equinox, Nidus, and Ivara.  Only Ivara even comes close at around eight hours on average if you're really bad at Spy missions. 

[Synpai]

11 minutes ago, KillaJoke1 said:

Yeah I kinda feel like it's screaming into the void on this topic in particular, but hey why not take a shot at it? I guess it's more so just airing grief and frustrations and holding a shred of hope that it might change something. Better to get it out then let it stew in my head I suppose. 

 

Besides with the recent talk about the content drought and folks talking about leaving feedback during this time I might aswell. If it doesn't change anything whatever. If it does fantastic nobody else has to go through this.  If I do manage to get it at some point I wouldn't wish anyone would have to go through this slog.  I'd rather khora be content that's enjoyed rather than content that doesn't exist for a majority of players. 

Oh by no means am I saying to ever leave your concerns unvoiced. By all means I hope I'm wrong and they change her, but history has shown us that the window for change tends to be within the first few weeks.

[hellodownthere]

well rng is rng i generally have extremely good luck when getting frames

Currently the most annoying frame to get (for me) is Rev cause his neuroptics is on bounty 5's last 2 stages, which takes ~15 min to do 1, and i just don't like doing bounties 

This is me bragging about how rngesus favours me.

Spoiler

Khora took me <20 runs for all her parts, Equinox took ~13, Nidus and Mesa only 3, Harrow took me roughly 9 runs for his systems. cant think of any other hard to get frames atm

This just goes to show that rng is a fickle mistress (except when it comes to me of course) 

 

[Almighty_Jado]

Yeah, I had a friend who played Sanctuary Onslaught almost religiously nearly everyday since it’s release. Guess what? He only just got the Neuroptics last week. Except, he didn’t.

I decided to just buy him the Khora collection because he was getting extremely frustrated with the game. I can imagine too, since back when Nidus came out it took me sixty something runs of Infested Salvage just to get his parts. A little relatable.

Anyways, it’d be nice if the reward algorithm changed based on what parts of a Warframe you are grinding for are missing.

[DrBorris]

An important part that you can't forget is that Khora is the most rewarding Warframe to farm. And I don't mean that Khora is the reward, but rather all of the other rewards you got while farming Khora. SO is one of the best affinity and relic farms in game, you are not 'only' getting Khora while farming Khora. 

 

Compare farming Khora to the likes of Equinox. When farming Equinox, the only thing you are getting is Equinox, no bonus rewards. 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 hours ago, Synpai said:

CAN something be done? Yes.

WILL something be done? Very unlikely at this point seeing how the Devs are in full Fortuna release mode.

 

Kinda shooting everyone in the leg: Players that have her because they spent all the time; Players that don't have her because they will have to spend all the time (I think I'll just name these situations the Hema Effect).

Let's not confuse RNG with dedication. There are a lot of players that acquired all of her parts with minimal effort. I have multiples of every part except the BP, so I'm in almost the same situation as the OP. I just can't seem to get it no matter how many times I run SO. At this point I do 1-2 runs when I have time to play but I'd much rather be running ESO since SO is a comparative waste of time.

[Synpai]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Let's not confuse RNG with dedication.

I'm not confusing the two. When the Hema was born there were clans that were able to afford it. There were clans that had to do a little grinding to achieve it. There were clans that had to work for days and down size in order to get it. There's a spectrum, but because DE didn't change it  BEFORE the effort, before people dedicated TIME (or bought her BECAUSE she was so terrible to farm) to the grind they were in a pickle. How do you track the effort players went through and refund them?

They could just do blanket rewards (even if it excluded people that outright purchased her) but then there are people who didn't really have to do anything who got a net positive or people like yourself who don't feel the reward matches the effort (it's a possibility, there's all kinds of people out there).

 

I'm not defending their choice of design, it shouldn't have been that way in the first place. I don't know why to this day you can't either convert excess parts to scrap to make or just into other parts (if they want to avoid trading). But nah, let's try to keep players from noticing there's nothing to do with repetition 

 

[KillaJoke1]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

An important part that you can't forget is that Khora is the most rewarding Warframe to farm. And I don't mean that Khora is the reward, but rather all of the other rewards you got while farming Khora. SO is one of the best affinity and relic farms in game, you are not 'only' getting Khora while farming Khora. 

 

Compare farming Khora to the likes of Equinox. When farming Equinox, the only thing you are getting is Equinox, no bonus rewards. 

While I understand your point the relic things almost feels moot from my point of view. I get them from a variety of missions that I do on the regular and I've received a fair amount of lith and meso from trying to crack these relics open aswell at times. Endo is whilst a nice reward in most senses not a great one for the time investment in comparison and just feels like salt in the wound when you need to worry about a duplicate khora part that is equally as rare. It's a solid chunk of time no matter what you do. You can't speed it up like a defense mission by increasing your DPS and picking a frame with mass killing potential. you can technicly speed up infested salvage by playing solo and juggling all three points with nekros. Spy you can trivialize with limbo and speed run them. But no matter what you do with onslaught it's the same amount of time every time. 

Equinox itself wasn't a challenge because it's tied to a story mission. I got equinox simply by helping players in my clan that despite it requiring a number of parts I eventually got equinox aswell I also never went out of my way knowing that it was frustrating and I could do that due to it's tie to the plot. At this point I think Khora is the only frame I don't have which making it more frustrating given the time I started farming her to no avail. Things that did help out no longer help and the only benefit truly in my eyes is the focus. I get more endo just scrapping the copious amounts of duplicates, keeping up with ayatan treasure hunts and such. 

I've only been to elite onslaught once due to the fact that I still need khora. If I'm going to be doing the gamemode I might aswell get all i can from it. But honestly I feel like it would be more enjoyable if I didn't have the aspect of "I could get khora this time." entering my head. It's nice having a way to walk away with 30kish focus but it always get's overshadowed by those times I get baited into wanting that final piece.  You see a neuroptic, you see a chassis, and then your minds like "Could it be some miraculous run where I get three khora pieces!" and then it's just endo at the end and I'm left kicking myself for getting my hopes up. 

[OvisCaedo]

6 hours ago, Buff00n said:

One thing my simulation allows me to do is see what difference simply removing the BP from the drop table makes:

Sadly, it doesn't make as much difference as you'd like.  It cuts the average from 10 hours down to about 7 1/2 hours, with the 99th percentile going down to about 26 1/2 hours.

I feel like the one thing I'd like to point out for this (for perhaps an alternate test) is that it looks like for this example you also left the drop rate on the systems the same. I feel like it's more likely that if the blueprint was taken out, the chances would go up on the remaining part closer to the ~8% that would be in the middle of the two other parts' drop rates, if not the 11% that it entirely absorbing the blueprint's drop chance would put it at.

[Gravitus123]

How are people still having issues with khora its been months since Eso was released ive never had to grind for any item/frame for that long

[Buff00n]

1 hour ago, OvisCaedo said:

I feel like the one thing I'd like to point out for this (for perhaps an alternate test) is that it looks like for this example you also left the drop rate on the systems the same. I feel like it's more likely that if the blueprint was taken out, the chances would go up on the remaining part closer to the ~8% that would be in the middle of the two other parts' drop rates, if not the 11% that it entirely absorbing the blueprint's drop chance would put it at.

Okay:

No BP, Systems at 8.01%:

No BP, Systems at 11.28%:

However, I think that's even more unlikely than the BP being removed at all.  If I recall correctly, when the Khora parts were taken out of the Elite Onslaught table the Vandal weapon parts' and peculiar mods' drop rates remained essentially unchanged.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

14 hours ago, Synpai said:

I'm not confusing the two. When the Hema was born there were clans that were able to afford it. There were clans that had to do a little grinding to achieve it. There were clans that had to work for days and down size in order to get it. There's a spectrum, but because DE didn't change it  BEFORE the effort, before people dedicated TIME (or bought her BECAUSE she was so terrible to farm) to the grind they were in a pickle. How do you track the effort players went through and refund them?

They could just do blanket rewards (even if it excluded people that outright purchased her) but then there are people who didn't really have to do anything who got a net positive or people like yourself who don't feel the reward matches the effort (it's a possibility, there's all kinds of people out there).

 

I'm not defending their choice of design, it shouldn't have been that way in the first place. I don't know why to this day you can't either convert excess parts to scrap to make or just into other parts (if they want to avoid trading). But nah, let's try to keep players from noticing there's nothing to do with repetition 

 

Like DE didn't change Vauban Prime? They don't have to make Khora easy to acquire but they can always make the drop rates slightly better without offending the majority of players that grinded for her (there are always players that complain about something though).

DE could add a mercy rule where the odds get better the more you have grinded without getting a specific drop. DE could even make it a Sanctuary Onslaught weekend with better drop rates all around so players could grind SO or ESO. The point being that there are solutions, DE just needs to implement one of them.

Besides, Warframe is ever evolving and DE is not even close to perfect so fixing a mistake is nothing. This is just something that needs to happen at this point.

Edited October 10, 2018 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Synpai]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Like DE didn't change Vauban Prime? They don't have to make Khora easy to acquire but they can always make the drop rates slightly better without offending the majority of players that grinded for her (there are always players that complain about something though).

DE could add a mercy rule where the odds get better the more you have grinded without getting a specific drop. DE could even make it a Sanctuary Onslaught weekend with better drop rates all around so players could grind SO or ESO. The point being that there are solutions, DE just needs to implement one of them.

Besides, Warframe is ever evolving and DE is not even close to perfect so fixing a mistake is nothing. This is just something that needs to happen at this point.

I never said they don't change anything. Vauban confirms exactly what I said:

23 hours ago, Synpai said:

Oh by no means am I saying to ever leave your concerns unvoiced. By all means I hope I'm wrong and they change her, but history has shown us that the window for change tends to be within the first few weeks.

Not to mention because the issue was with the cost of his parts they just ran a script to refund everyone that built him (on the same day, no less). Khora is one of time and because they've taken so long there are people who've done it just as long as you and JUST gotten her. 

Like I am hoping, praying they change her so no one else has to endure it, but then I look at Nidus, still dropping from a interception-esc game mode that drops parts to build an antiserum injector for a raid that's been abolished.Excalibur who I can only assume is still nonsensically terrible to farm that "You're better off farming for him in conclave"

Spoiler

 

This is the glory of being on the forums every single day. Some of the complaints around Khora's drop chance date allll the way back to April with many more views. Yet here we stand.

I suggest we wait for the Mainline update, because it could very well be the salvation Khora needs, but I can't help but wonder why it couldn't have been fixed when they did the Onslaught Recalibration or any number of updates or hotfixes between. NOTE: This doesn't mean stop voicing your concerns.

Though to be fair...this IS an instance of people complaining about something, that's how complaints work, and although you and I (And many others) see your complaints as valid, there are people who don't because "Back in my day you had to play Zork and make your own map" or whatever the case may be.

20 hours ago, Synpai said:

I'm not defending their choice of design, it shouldn't have been that way in the first place. I don't know why to this day you can't either convert excess parts to scrap to make or just into other parts (if they want to avoid trading). But nah, let's try to keep players from noticing there's nothing to do with repetition 

Hi It's me, the person that suggested a method of mercy rule and criticized the low drop chance as diluting content. How do they monitor and increase the drop chance when the group gets the same rewards?  Like if you're running with a group, Khora parts have an increased chance to drop because you're 1/4 people don't have her (It's an ugly balance between "We can't find Khora!!" and "I have 3000 Khora parts where are the other rewards!?")? Coding wise that's a big nope for me. Just making part blueprints that use Khora Scrap to purchase from the market is less of a headache IMO.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Synpai

[(PSN)LORD_SKELETORUS]

Am 9.10.2018 um 15:09 schrieb KillaJoke1:

Okay I've been at this for awhile. Like I've been trying to farm her since Onslaught came out. At first I tackled this rather often and actually participating in the gamemode. Even finding it somewhat fun and engaging. But as time went on and other khora BP's and Relics stacked up I found myself pushing myself finding less enjoyment of the gamemode getting burnt out on it completely. I moved towards essentially automating it with Volt Prime when his relics became available. Every so often I take a few shots at getting khora, taking Volt, finding a little place to hide and barricading myself in and pressing 4 on cooldown for every single round. And this is just getting bonkers. 

  I'm not sure how this statistically breaks down in terms of Neo relics. But I'd say most of these are from onslaught. Or a good chunk of them are given how often I do hydron aswell. I have more neo relics than I could ever hope to open. I've received multiple khora blueprints. I specifically went out and got Volt prime purely for the sake of grinding for khora to automate something that has long since lost it's fun. 

  Mesa, Ivara, Nidus, Harrow most of the frames others have stated are a pain to obtain I've managed to get long before her and I started on her before attempting to get those. Having those two pieces with similar odds on the final rotation with the same low odds is just too much. It's put me at a point where spending plat to get it is a waste due to the other parts of her I've amassed. I mean come on... 4 Blueprints? Can't there atleast be some discount on the frame for owning the other parts to make it or an option to buy the last blueprint you need to complete a frame so it doesn't feel like a massive waste of time? 

Even when I try and push it out of my head and focus on getting focus that small "Come on khora systems." pops into my head only to be met with utter disappointment at yet another neo relic. I'm tired of the feeling of disappointment when I try and play this gamemode. I'm tired of feeling salty after being denied the last piece I need to construct a warframe over and over and over again.  Why did her BP have to be in the rotation aswell? Why did we break away from buying the blueprint from the market? I get it. It's probably some attempt to further push buying the frame from the market. But does it really need to go this far? To push the game to this level of drag where I feel the need to completely disengage from playing the gamemode and just automating the fun out of it? 

DE is taking too much on their plate to chew. It's insane that they think opening an open world after open world is a good idea. I hope it works out and Fortuna isn't POE 2.0. Either way , hope Khora gets a better drop rate.