Saryn changes make me go Vay Hek

[seashrine]

hace 1 minuto, Eirshy dijo:

Actually no, it's not 30% slower, and it's impossible for it to BE 30% slower. The ramp-up rate has diminishing TTK returns the higher it has already ramped up. 30% less acceleration does not mean 30% less velocity.

Also, pretty sure that's not what DE's trying to prevent here. Because as-is, Saryn presses 1 and the whole map dies.

30% less acceleration means way more than 30% less velocity no matter at which point. Take any period of time and you will see a 30% decrease in damage done.

If you want mathy, here's the graph of Saryn's spore at any given point in the first 10 seconds.
https://imgur.com/ijUNDKH

Here's the total damage done across that time:
https://imgur.com/a/KluB1mB
 

As you can see, the more time it passes the more steep the difference becomes.

[Eirshy]

16 minutes ago, seashrine said:

30% less acceleration means way more than 30% less velocity no matter at which point. Take any period of time and you will see a 30% decrease in damage done.

If you want mathy, here's the graph of Saryn's spore at any given point in the first 10 seconds.
https://imgur.com/ijUNDKH

Here's the total damage done across that time:
https://imgur.com/a/KluB1mB
 

As you can see, the more time it passes the more steep the difference becomes.

I misspoke. 30% reduced accelleration does not result in 30% reduced displacement. As we are talking TTK, we don't actually care about the rate of damage (velocity), only how much total damage has been dealt (displacement).

Over 3s, you used to deal 10, 30, 50 for 90 total damage. Now you deal 10, 24, 38 for 72 damage. (-20%)

The amount of "lost" damage does steadily increase, you are correct, but even at a full minute, assuming you had max stacks deployed the entire time, you're still at 36000 old vs 25380 new (roughly -29.5%).

At 2 minutes, it's 144000 vs 101160 (-29.75%).

The effect on TTK has a limit of 30%, but it is not 30%.

Additionally, if at any point you fall below 8 infected targets, you do not lose gain rate- as 7 or less infected has the same gain rate both before and after the nerf. The above math is assuming you have 10 targets infected with 100% uptime.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Eirshy

[seashrine]

Justo ahora, Eirshy dijo:

I misspoke. 30% reduced accelleration does not result in 30% reduced displacement. As we are talking TTK, we don't actually care about the rate of damage, only how much total damage has been dealt.

Over 3s, you used to deal 10, 30, 50 for 90 total damage. Now you deal 10, 24, 38 for 72 damage. (-20%)

The amount of "lost" damage does steadily increase, you are correct, but even at a full minute, assuming you had max stacks deployed the entire time, you're still at 36000 old vs 25380 new (roughly -29.5%).

At 2 minutes, it's 144000 vs 101160 (-29.75%).

The effect on TTK has a limit of 30%, but it is not 30%.

Additionally, if at any point you fall below 8 infected targets, you do not lose gain rate- as 7 or less infected has the same gain rate both before and after the nerf.

Disregarding the base damage, and the (few) times it drops below 7, it's a -30% across the board. In compensation for a "buff" that is a bugfix that also carries a nerf.

[Duality52]

31 minutes ago, seashrine said:

But the nerf on spores is huge. It's a 30% reduction in her core ability, for no good reason, as "compensation" for a buff that is actually not a buff, but just a bugfix. To those who use 4 sparingly and are based on spore, AKA the ones you defend when you say "4 spam is bad for the game", this is actually 100% hindering.

Spores is more or less the most powerful 1st ability in the game, to the point where it rivals any 4's in the game. That right there is not okay.

While it depends on the amount of enemies present in an area, you could just build for range to spread it from 2 to probably 3 tiles away. 

[seashrine]

Justo ahora, Duality52 dijo:

Spores is more or less the most powerful 1st ability in the game, to the point where it rivals any 4's in the game. That right there is not okay.

While it depends on the amount of enemies present in an area, you could just build for range to spread it from 2 to probably 3 tiles away. 

Spores are the most powerful 1, because that's what the character is built around. The 2 has just today been practically made irrelevant by ONE MOD, her 3 is a small buff to damage unless you go melee on a frame with no defense mechanism, and her 4 is a DOT AOE that requires the 4 ability attributes to maximize.

[Buttaface]

Haven't fully DLed update, but if this change reduces the number of tryhards spamming Saryn 4 over and over in low and midlevel missions even a little, BRAVO! A tiny baby step in the right direction.

[Eirshy]

9 minutes ago, seashrine said:

Disregarding the base damage, and the (few) times it drops below 7, it's a -30% across the board. In compensation for a "buff" that is a bugfix that also carries a nerf.

Jesus christ did you even read what I posted.

Calculating TTK requires a wash through Damage Dealt, as the amount you dealt previously matters. Lowering acceleration does not lower displacement by the same percentage, only by a limit of that percentage. This is because the faster you're going, the less the continual velocity increase matters compared to your previously traveled distance.

As such, TTK was NOT reduced by 30%, it was reduced by UP TO 30%. But since most mobs die well before having been infected for a whole god damn minute, the TTK is barely any lower.

 

Also I dunno about you, but even against infested, 4 infected is a very common number. Things die with no immediate replacement fairly often, and even in [E]SO it typically bounces between 1 and 20+ with the occasional strain die-off.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Eirshy

[seashrine]

hace 1 minuto, Buttaface dijo:

Haven't fully DLed update, but if this change reduces the number of tryhards spamming Saryn 4 over and over in low and midlevel missions even a little, BRAVO! A tiny baby step in the right direction.

Quite the opposite; it will increase them.

[Peter]

3 hours ago, seashrine said:

Why would you go into a post you don't care about to reply to a topic you don't care about?

Because i'm a Saryn main and for me this nerft don't change nothing, just get the salt away.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Peter

[seashrine]

hace 3 minutos, Eirshy dijo:

Jesus christ did you even read what I posted.

Calculating TTK requires a wash through Damage Dealt, as the amount you dealt previously matters. Lowering acceleration does not lower displacement by the same percentage, only by a limit of that percentage. This is because the faster you're going, the less the continual velocity increase matters compared to your previously traveled distance.

As such, TTK was NOT reduced by 30%, it was reduced by UP TO 30%. But since most mobs die well before having been infected for a whole god damn minute, the TTK is barely any lower.

 

Also I dunno about you, but even against infested, 4 infected is a very common number. Things die with no immediate replacement fairly often, and even in [E]SO it typically bounces between 1 and 20+ with the occasional strain die-off.

Try running the calcs without the base damage and you will see how it's linearly 30

[seashrine]

hace 1 minuto, Peter dijo:

Because i'm a Saryn main and for me this changes don't change nothing, just get the salt away.

So you care or you don't care?

[(PSN)TertulSee]

1 hour ago, seashrine said:

Let's nerf Ivara considering how good she's in Spy.
Let's nerf Loki considering how good he's in any non-killing mission.
Let's nerf Rhino considering how good he's in Index.

Yes, let’s nerf all of them so no one will use them.

Saryn is OP. She’s good in everything besides hunting Eidolons. Other frames are good at one thing but they aren’t the only frames you see in that one game mode. 

[seashrine]

Justo ahora, (PS4)godlysparta dijo:

Yes, let’s nerf all of them so no one will use them.

Saryn is OP. She’s good in everything besides hunting Eidolons. Other frames are good at one thing but they aren’t the only frames you see in that one game mode.  

Truth is, if DE says "Saryn has too much power so we are nerfing her", I'd have no quarrell. One can agree or disagree with that.
"She's OP in a specific mode so nerf her" is a stupid argument.
"We fixed a bug, and to compensate for it we are nerfing this little thing that will tune down power by 30%" is not the way to present a nerf. Disguising it as a buff is not the right thing to do.

[Eirshy]

6 minutes ago, seashrine said:

Try running the calcs without the base damage and you will see how it's linearly 30

You're looking at VELOCITY, which is nearly 30% less at all times due to base damage.
You need to look at DISPLACEMENT, which is the actual running total of damage dealt.

ffs I'm done. I gave you math demonstrating it. I pointed out that you won't even always suffer an "up to 30%" nerf to acceleration.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Eirshy

[Conflux59]

Just now, (PS4)godlysparta said:

Yes, let’s nerf all of them so no one will use them.

Saryn is OP. She’s good in everything besides hunting Eidolons. Other frames are good at one thing but they aren’t the only frames you see in that one game mode. 

Chroma mains are nodding
an ability not working as intended, then changed to the developers intent, with an outcry from le' community... sounds familiar 🤔

[seashrine]

Justo ahora, Eirshy dijo:

You're looking at VELOCITY, which is nearly 30% less at all times. You need to look at DISPLACEMENT, which is the actual running total of damage dealt.

ffs I'm done. I gave you math demonstrating it. I pointed out that you won't even always suffer an "up to 30%" nerf to acceleration.

I gave you the graph of displacement, which is the integral of the damage formula over time. I know it tends to 30%, and I also know that if you remove the base damage, it is ALWAYS 30%. Check it out yourself.

[Gurpgork]

Neeeever mind. I just read the patch notes again. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Gurpgork

[seashrine]

hace 2 minutos, Gurpgork dijo:

I admittedly haven't tested this yet, so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the only thing they changed with Spores the damage cap? And if so, is that realistically even a reduction in effectiveness under normal gameplay circumstances? I mean, 70,000 corrosive damage per spore per tick is still an absolutely ungodly amount of damage, and if you're not trying to set a world record on Mot or something, you're almost certainly never going to come anywhere close to that.  

No, they changed the increase per second from 10 infected enemies max to 7. Which is 30% decrease across the board. A bit less on the first seconds due to the base damage, but pretty much 30%.

Can anyone really hit 70k on any reasonable scenario? Enemies don't spawn that fast.

Edited October 12, 2018 by seashrine

[Xolgys]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb seashrine:

No. It does exactly the damage it was supposed to do. There was a bug preventing it.
And then they slapped a huge nerf on spore.

the bug caused her to deal base damage always, meaning she was fine with base dmg. now she does 2x dmg compared to before if u have spore on enemies with the difference being its much weaker if u dont have spore. its a buff for ppl who actually do more than press 4.

it does not matter if saryn has 7 spore growth or 10. all it does is make miasma more important but ppl use it anyway. the only difference is now using both ALONE without one another makes each worse. still, spore removes armor, which is every players biggest enemy later in the game. miasma forces viral, which is always great, toxic lash forces toxin proccs on every projectile hit/dmg instance and adds a flat % bonus toxin dmg. all of this is perfect against enemies without armor or low armor and for that u have spore. people want saryn to insta wipe everything when her theme is poison. having to actually use all of her abilities to have results is much better than that boring 1 button to win "gameplay" many people have done over the last weeks. now spore alone takes longer and miasma alone also doesnt do much anymore. what are u even complaining about ? saryn has some real damage output right now and that versus EVERY faction and this is not a literal nerf, its a shift in gameplay for those who never bothered using more than miasma. the point where that dmg growth would actually matter is at least lv 150 and above and thats not really something saryn can do well anyway because she lacks CC and real tankyness, molt is not the best form of "tanky" and miasma is wanna be CC. so, in any case its absolutely pointless if spores grow 30% slower or not, if u actually use ur weapons ur getting more dmg from the reduced armor anyway. on the starchart and also against ~150 spore resets often enough anyway, or decays...u wanna cry about that dmg loss right there too ? why does it even reset ?? RIGHT ! because stuff still dies fast enough so that spores endless scaling isnt even needed anyway. actually, now u have an easier time keeping spores up to actually scale because they dont outscale enemies as hard anymore. its pointless if spore does that because it just means at some point enemies die too fast and spore resets/decays, especially on an average mission.

so yea, complain about that "nerf" as u call it...but dont be surprised if something to really complain about appears some time in the future because ppl sure as fluff think saryn is OP although shes not, shes just pure damage. others have different strenghts so its less obvious maybe but i guess thats a topic for another thread...

[seashrine]

hace 1 minuto, Xydeth dijo:

the bug caused her to deal base damage always, meaning she was fine with base dmg. now she does 2x dmg compared to before if u have spore on enemies with the difference being its much weaker if u dont have spore. its a buff for ppl who actually do more than press 4.

it does not matter if saryn has 7 spore growth or 10. all it does is make miasma more important but ppl use it anyway. the only difference is now using both ALONE without one another makes each worse. still, spore removes armor, which is every players biggest enemy later in the game. miasma forces viral, which is always great, toxic lash forces toxin proccs on every projectile hit/dmg instance and adds a flat % bonus toxin dmg. all of this is perfect against enemies without armor or low armor and for that u have spore. people want saryn to insta wipe everything when her theme is poison. having to actually use all of her abilities to have results is much better than that boring 1 button to win "gameplay" many people have done over the last weeks. now spore alone takes longer and miasma alone also doesnt do much anymore. what are u even complaining about ? saryn has some real damage output right now and that versus EVERY faction and this is not a literal nerf, its a shift in gameplay for those who never bothered using more than miasma. the point where that dmg growth would actually matter is at least lv 150 and above and thats not really something saryn can do well anyway because she lacks CC and real tankyness, molt is not the best form of "tanky" and miasma is wanna be CC. so, in any case its absolutely pointless if spores grow 30% slower or not, if u actually use ur weapons ur getting more dmg from the reduced armor anyway. on the starchart and also against ~150 spore resets often enough anyway, or decays...u wanna cry about that dmg loss right there too ? why does it even reset ?? RIGHT ! because stuff still dies fast enough so that spores endless scaling isnt even needed anyway. actually, now u have an easier time keeping spores up to actually scale because they dont outscale enemies as hard anymore. its pointless if spore does that because it just means at some point enemies die too fast and spore resets/decays, especially on an average mission.

so yea, complain about that "nerf" as u call it...but dont be surprised if something to really complain about appears some time in the future because ppl sure as fluff think saryn is OP although shes not, shes just pure damage. others have different strenghts so its less obvious maybe but i guess thats a topic for another thread...

Truth be told, I liked old Saryn better. And she was WAY weaker and underplayed. Yet I liked the damage spreading mechanics. I don't complain about her power level, but about presenting several nerfs as an overall buff or "keeping the same power".

[Zi-Sui]

It's a nerf to people like me who mindlessly spammed miasma in the first waves of Hydron. Now can't do that, need spores. No big deal, but nerf is a nerf no matter how small one.

[Xolgys]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb seashrine:

Truth be told, I liked old Saryn better. And she was WAY weaker and underplayed. Yet I liked the damage spreading mechanics. I don't complain about her power level, but about presenting several nerfs as an overall buff or "keeping the same power".

it is not presenting, its a fact. just see the whole picture. turret saryn was stronger and more important if u did endurance runs as a team of 4 because u could make use of the toxin procc spread mechanic. outside of that its arguably opinion. saryn makes armor pointless, which is strong too but shes not a frame that could solo endurance and in a 4 player endurance run u have 4x CP vs armor or an Ash as dps for example who doesnt care about armor anyway so theres that. for regular gameplay shes probably the most fun and useful right now since u cant rely on 4x CP on random missions and the enemies arent actually strong enough so that u need it anyway which makes saryn kind of the perfect case since u do feel a difference low armor vs fully armored, just compare that on a lv 125 heavy gunner for example. 4-5 corrosive proccs are already a huge difference. if u liked turret saryn better, sure, ur opinion/taste, i feel like the exact opposite because she was boring. now shes actually the best when u use 3 of her abilities in conjunction and molt is not useless, especially with the augment although some ppl would argue about that but many things are opinion/taste i guess.

vor 6 Minuten schrieb BoarWarrior:

It's a nerf to people like me who mindlessly spammed miasma in the first waves of Hydron. Now can't do that, need spores. No big deal, but nerf is a nerf no matter how small one.

its not a nerf, u will deal double damage compared to before since it was bugged and didnt deal double vs spored enemies but was fine dmg wise none the less so in the end, compared to before, its a buff. if u compare it to the INTENTION from before, sure its a nerf in gameplay since u need to press 1 button more and shoot the enemy once at least but thats not really a biggie now is it ?

Edited October 12, 2018 by Xydeth

[seashrine]

hace 2 minutos, Xydeth dijo:

it is not presenting, its a fact. just see the whole picture. turret saryn was stronger and more important if u did endurance runs as a team of 4 because u could make use of the toxin procc spread mechanic. outside of that its arguably opinion. saryn makes armor pointless, which is strong too but shes not a frame that could solo endurance and in a 4 player endurance run u have 4x CP vs armor or an Ash as dps for example who doesnt care about armor anyway so theres that. for regular gameplay shes probably the most fun and useful right now since u cant rely on 4x CP on random missions and the enemies arent actually strong enough so that u need it anyway which makes saryn kind of the perfect case since u do feel a difference low armor vs fully armored, just compare that on a lv 125 heavy gunner for example. 4-5 corrosive proccs are already a huge difference. if u liked turret saryn better, sure, ur opinion/taste, i feel like the exact opposite because she was boring. now shes actually the best when u use 3 of her abilities in conjunction and molt is not useless, especially with the augment although some ppl would argue about that but many things are opinion/taste i guess.

No, I did not like turret Saryn. I did play a mobile Saryn with a Gas arca plasmor so the toxin part would spread across the room. 1, LMB, and it was an area explosion. Worked for most scenarios and did not require a dedicated group. They since removed the toxin carrying property.

[MechaKnight]

Overextended is the reason why any warframe radial ability gets nerfed or feels overpowered. Just a couple days ago I knew yet another nerf was coming, and more warframe nerfs are coming in the future unless we alter Overextended.

[Xolgys]

vor einer Stunde schrieb MechaKnight:

Overextended is the reason why any warframe radial ability gets nerfed or feels overpowered. Just a couple days ago I knew yet another nerf was coming, and more warframe nerfs are coming in the future unless we alter Overextended.

i disagree since overextended comes at a cost. if DE just added more difficult content then the range wouldnt be an issue. the problem is that players have gotten more and more tools and become stronger and stronger, which is fine but the content has to grow accordingly imo.