Ember Bad even with the ARB +300%

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, MickThejaguar said:

The person I was responding to mentioned the Ignis, so I assumed he specifically meant the Ignis Wraith, a meta weapon. I haven't seen any Embers whatsoever that weren't running around with an Atomos or Ignis Wraith, both of which are extremely potent weapons in their own right, so it comes of as disingenuous when someone mentions how much damage they do with Ember with those weapons equipped.

actually he also said any decent fire weapon. he wasnt only talking about ignis.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)Cubic Clem:

If you say so.. 8-) Like I stated previously I didn't and don't care about the DMG she dealt or is dealing.. not like that. I used her WoF for the CC and only had stretch on her.. so go away with that "you want to afk kill anything in the next room" nonsense attitude.

The Cc that hit 2 random enemies in a what? 140m diameter at a time? You sure did cause it's been relyable as hell am i right? I mean how would you even die with WoF attacking enemies 70m away while those 20m from you shoot you to pellets.

The one scenario it worked was when it killed them on entrance, that's literally all it was.

Edited October 17, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Oreades]

Ember has always shined on the star chart (maybe through the sorties) but fallen apart in short order after that. 

Why would you bring her to an Arbitration? like 85% of the time your best option is ignoring the games "suggestion" on what to take. 

There are a hand full of weapons and frames that really work well for Arbitration and if the game suggests anything else...... just don't do it. 

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Ember has always shined on the star chart (maybe through the sorties) but fallen apart in short order after that. 

Why would you bring her to an Arbitration? like 85% of the time your best option is ignoring the games "suggestion" on what to take. 

There are a hand full of weapons and frames that really work well for Arbitration and if the game suggests anything else...... just don't do it. 

why? i did a 40m with harrow. in the end i took a one shot in the back but that wont stop me from challenging myself. problem with arbitration is OHKO. a problem that has existed long before its introduction. if you take a squishy frame just do your best and if you fail no problem. the mode increases failure im not going to avoid frames i like playing just because of this. people should really play what they like but meh thats today's warframe. if it doesnt trivialize the difficulty its bad.

[MickThejaguar]

 

7 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

actually he also said any decent fire weapon. he wasnt only talking about ignis.

And I explained my reasoning behind speaking towards meta weapons. It's all I ever see anyone using and he mentioned it as well. 

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

why? i did a 40m with harrow. in the end i took a one shot in the back but that wont stop me from challenging myself. problem with arbitration is OHKO. a problem that has existed long before its introduction. if you take a squishy frame just do your best and if you fail no problem. the mode increases failure im not going to avoid frames i like playing just because of this. people should really play what they like but meh thats today's warframe. if it doesnt trivialize the difficulty its bad.

Yeah but Harrow can actually dish damage, synergies with weapons and has some decent CC. Ember has none of those, a lot of the "squishy frames have none of those. Heck I went 40 min with a Khora with zero survivability mods because I don't believe in those. That said Khora can dish the damage, synergies with weapons and has some decent CC and we ended it because we where just done. Tho if we'd kept going it eventually would have ended with a stray bullet to the back of the head but at that point it's long stopped being about "challenge" and is more about your RNG. For that kind of challenge I can just go play BOSHY. 

Ember is just a bad match for Arbitrations, her powers don't really keep up with the game, her "decent" CC requires an augment and even then isn't super great and her Armor while better than your standard glass canon doesn't really cut it because it she's still mostly glass and very little canon. 

Now, could you run a 40+ minute arbitration with Ember, probably but you could probably run a 40+ minute arbitration with a ham sandwich.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Yeah but Harrow can actually dish damage, synergies with weapons and has some decent CC. Ember has none of those, a lot of the "squishy frames have none of those. Heck I went 40 min with a Khora with zero survivability mods because I don't believe in those. That said Khora can dish the damage, synergies with weapons and has some decent CC and we ended it because we where just done. Tho if we'd kept going it eventually would have ended with a stray bullet to the back of the head but at that point it's long stopped being about "challenge" and is more about your RNG. For that kind of challenge I can just go play BOSHY. 

Ember is just a bad match for Arbitrations, her powers don't really keep up with the game, her "decent" CC requires an augment and even then isn't super great and her Armor while better than your standard glass canon doesn't really cut it because it she's still mostly glass and very little canon. 

Now, could you run a 40+ minute arbitration with Ember, probably but you could probably run a 40+ minute arbitration with a ham sandwich.

the only damage synergy harrow has is with Crit weapons. its no different than ember dealing massive damage with heat based weapons. my build has accelerant at x5.35 damage modifier. i dont know what build your using but if you are having trouble damaging enemies with heat probably should check your build.

all 4 of her abilities have a CC component.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Cubic Clem:

And your range explanation is crazy, and wasn't really achieved with just stretch on her..

Nah but with 3 range mods. The norm for WoF at that time really. Also the reason it was changed cause compared to mag, ember had to do nothing at all to kill those trash mobs. Not even press a button.

It didn't have LoS eather.

It was nothing but a low level dot nuke that allowed you to afk and by itself it was if anything less relyable Cc because you couldn't controll what it attacks, what's plenty easy with it's current range cause it doesn't have a choice but to attack enemies close to you.

Edited October 17, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Xolgys]

vor einer Stunde schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i dont defend map wipe. im on the side that wants to see it completely removed from the game. ive also said many moons ago that CC that covers the entire map completely removing any threat needs to be removed as well. no where did i say equinox was effor or mesa aim bot (because thats what it is). but frost 4  doesnt cover the map, mags 3 and 4 dont cover or CC the map, nova's 4 only slows enemies in which you can still be shot and even then i said a few times they should remove time scale from it. ive said many times limbo needs a rework. im not oblivious to any of the happenings currently but ember gets a ridiculous amount of unwanted hate because people either cant AFK, they cant face tank, or they cant neuter the entire map with CC to a point maybe its time DE stops making frames squishy since people want to avoid the responsibility of using parkour.

saryn has been popular ever since -duration Miasma when it was corrosive. her popularity didnt just start with her 2.0 and 3.0

thats way back of 1.0, inbetween shes was not as popular as most others. far rarer sight. i am of the polar opposite faction...i think limiting creativity in terms of abilities just because some designs are "easier" or stronger doesnt make good balance.

[SenorClipClop]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

On topic: the current ember is the most boring Warframe that exists in this game.

Pretty subjective, since I have bunches of fun playing Ember and I believe the most boring frame to play is definitely Rhino, followed closely by Loki. Rhino has 4 abilities that each do just one thing (outside of augments). He has no synergies and is so simple I could play him with one hand before my morning coffee. Loki is similar except he gets to turn off 2 modicums of all difficulty with the push of two buttons. If we want to talk boredom, for me that's lack of engagement with what you're playing, which fits Rhino and Loki perfectly in my books.

[Xolgys]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb SenorClipClop:

Pretty subjective, since I have bunches of fun playing Ember and I believe the most boring frame to play is definitely Rhino, followed closely by Loki. Rhino has 4 abilities that each do just one thing (outside of augments). He has no synergies and is so simple I could play him with one hand before my morning coffee. Loki is similar except he gets to turn off 2 modicums of all difficulty with the push of two buttons. If we want to talk boredom, for me that's lack of engagement with what you're playing, which fits Rhino and Loki perfectly in my books.

agree. just rhino is really useful. loki is....a difficult topic but also really boring, agree.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Ember is just a bad match for Arbitrations, her powers don't really keep up with the game

What if the solution isn't in changing Ember, but in changing how Heat damage works? Right now Heat damage is underpowered because it's the only DoT status proc that doesn't stack. All it does is refresh (not even extend) the proc duration and reapply its CC. However, what if Heat procs just stacked their damage like Toxin and Slash do? A good Ember can proc HEat many times per second, so ramping up progressively more procs on focused targets will actually help her melt tanky targets instead of just roasting the fodder. If you ask me, Ember is mechanically alright and would do a whole lot better if the Devs just buffed the one damaging Status proc that doesn't stack its damage.

Edited October 17, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Cubic Clem:

I used her with one range mod though, and used her differently..(and again, IDC about low lvl stuff, almost any Warframe can be a afk nuke there..) You're completely stuck in the meta.. and try to stick others into it, I've said dozens of times that's not how I want her.. I'm done here, trying to explain others that there are different play styles is impossible here..

On topic: the current ember is the most boring Warframe that exists in this game. She definitely needs some work and I hope she gets what she deserves after fortuna..

Not more boring then she used to be if you find her bad now. Sole difference is that you can't afk her anymore, other then that, it's the same frame with the same moveset on a different, more active playstyle.

Isn't it strange how noone had that opinion about her when that afk meta was still possible?

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Storming the enemy is not engaging.. ok.

That's not what I said though. I said that Rhino and Loki aren't engaging when I look at how their abilities affect gameplay. I can "storm the enemy" (whatever that means) with any frame I want. It's just that Loki and Rhino have the least amount of stuff that makes that activity interesting. Very little in terms of Energy effects. Rhino's buff is alright but all it does is just up your damage until it stops, not very interesting. The only mobility between them is a stubby version of Slash Dash and a very situational teleport with tons of animation locking. Their biggest game changers are "push this button, your game is now easy" with Iron Skin, Stomp, Invis and Disarm. No synergy outside of Teleoprting with your Decoy (again pretty situaional) and Rhino's augments.

What I'm saying is that I can play any mission with any of the 36 frames, and that I'm having the least fun when I play with either Rhino or Loki. I understand they work, are effective and others enjoy them. I even enjoy Loki sometimes, but their abilities aren't things that make them enjoyable compared to any other frame in my book.

[ShortCat]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

What if the solution isn't in changing Ember, but in changing how Heat damage works? Right now Heat damage is underpowered because it's the only DoT status proc that doesn't stack. All it does is refresh (not even extend) the proc duration and reapply its CC. However, what if Heat procs just stacked their damage like Toxin and Slash do? A good Ember can proc HEat many times per second, so ramping up progressively more procs on focused targets will actually help her melt tanky targets instead of just roasting the fodder. If you ask me, Ember is mechanically alright and would do a whole lot better if the Devs just buffed the one damaging Status proc that doesn't stack its damage.

I agree on changes to heat procs. Their current nature is limiting Ember, as all her skills revolve not only around heat damage, but also heat procs. This also makes beam weapons like Ignis or Atomos a false positive, as due to ramp up mechanic, you usually apply the weakest possible proc at the beggining and cannot overwrite it later.

I do not agree on your statement about Ember being mechanically alright. All her skills do basicly the same thing, especially #2 and #3 overlap in functionality. On top of that, she has been designed under current heat mechanic and all her damage skills compete against each other for fire procs. Right now, she is the pinnacle of bad design.

[Arcira]

18 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

snip

Nice one! You managed to reduced the entire context to one single sentence.

Ye I´m totally running the same build from 5 years ago (irony)

A sentence from the very same post you just quoted:

On 2018-10-16 at 9:45 PM, Arcira said:

But I´m curious show me your almighty build. I want to compare your dps values to mine.

And another one from my answer before:

On 2018-10-16 at 8:05 AM, Arcira said:

Ok maybe I´m there worst Ember player in the entire world and all of my build attemts are fundermentally wrong.

Do you even read replies or do you just pick a random sentence?

All I see are substanceless assertions. No real responses or counterarguments.

Also still waiting for your competitve build suggestion. Maybe you are the choosen one.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Arcira:

Nice one! You managed to reduced the entire context to one single sentence.

Ye I´m totally running the same build from 5 years ago (irony)

A sentence from the very same post you just quoted:

And another one from my answer before:

Do you even read replies or do you just pick a random sentence?

All I see are substanceless assertions. No real responses or counterarguments.

Also still waiting for your competitve build suggestion. Maybe you are the choosen one.

Counterarguments to what exactly? You denying her damage, buff or Cc potential and resulting survivability based on what exactly? Comparable frames who share like one of those factors when i'm bulldozing everything from lowlevels to literall levels above your op? Yeah, i'm gonna pass on that. You've got your mind set and the only thing that may change it is a different experience.

Build i use is 

CP, Speed drift (for the simple utility of it, cunning is probably the better choice)

(Umbra)Vitality, (Umbra) Intensify, QT, (Primed)Flow, max Transient Fortitude, max Fleeting Expertise, (Primed)Continiuty and Stretch

My weapon of choice is a hybrid plague keewar i've build for fire.

Stretch is a optional slot that could easily be replaced with eather more survivability or the accelerant augument. Rage out.

Edited October 17, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Arcira]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Build i use is 

CP, Speed drift (for the simple utility of it, cunning is probably the better choice)

(Umbra)Vitality, (Umbra) Intensify, QT, (Primed)Flow, max Transient Fortitude, max Fleeting Expertise, (Primed)Continiuty and Stretch

My weapon of choice is a hybrid plague keewar i've build for fire.

Stretch is a optional slot that could easily be replaced with eather more survivability or the accelerant augument. Rage out.

This kind of build is exactly what I´ve expected you are neither make use of WoF "damage potential" or any buff aspects via augments people are praising. You are playing a mere debuffer ranged melee build.

(-OK that´s Accelerant with 50 energy per cast over 3 seconds stun time and Ember max Primed Flow has ~650 energy. Lets see that´s about 13 seconds totally reliable defense except against Nullifier ... and Arbiter drones .. and bosses ...and...-)

edit: didn´t notice fleeting Expertise

OK that´s Accelerant with 20 energy per cast over 3 seconds stun time and Ember max Primed Flow has ~640 energy. Lets see that´s about 32 seconds totally reliable defense except against Nullifier ... and Arbiter drones .. and bosses ...and...

Even a simple Fireball will costs you 10 energy per cast. Tell me more about that awesome amount of cc you can´t use.

Now you can show me your actual keewar build so I can calculate your massive dps increase compared to tank xy in this game. I don´t want to guess.

 

ps: Did you try that awesome new mode (Arbitration) and mod (Adaption) which totally doesn´t push already survival heavy warframe even further?

Edited October 18, 2018 by Arcira

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, ShortCat said:

All her skills do basicly the same thing, especially #2 and #3 overlap in functionality

Alright =/= Perfect. She could be better but doesn't need to be. As far as her abilities go, each does a different thing in execution. 1 for locking a single point, 2 for an area stun and a couple nice buffs, 3 for displacement CC and holding a point for a time, 4 for passive damage and transient CC. Fire Blast could use a little extra to be made more interesting (someone suggested being able to pick up and move with the fiery ring, which I like), but she's alright in the general scope of frame design.

9 hours ago, ShortCat said:

On top of that, she has been designed under current heat mechanic and all her damage skills compete against each other for fire procs.

Okay, but I just finished talking about fixing Ember by allowing Heat procs to stack damage. If that happened, the procs would be co-operating with each other instead of competing. And so if that were changed and Heat procs did stack, most of her abilities proccing Heat (and another multiplying proc damage) would be really, really effective.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Arcira:

This kind of build is exactly what I´ve expected you are neither make use of WoF "damage potential" or any buff aspects via augments people are praising. You are playing a mere debuffer ranged melee build.

That stretch is optional also means you could play rage/hunter and sorry but how exactly isn't a 210% strength build not utilicing WoF's damage potential? That's literally 4k dps spamming fire proccs around you at all times, what also massively lowers your need to spam accelerant "every 3 seconds" - though you'd gain enough energy to just do that. More Cc focus? Replace transient.

I'm also not suprised that you can't actually do anything in those levels saying that. Not her fault that you bring the wrong tools for high levels.

How many survivability mods do you have on your inaros so he can? There's also the option to make a max range, max strength tornado build with him but you probably don't.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

As far as her abilities go, each does a different thing in execution. 1 for locking a single point, 2 for an area stun and a couple nice buffs, 3 for displacement CC and holding a point for a time, 4 for passive damage and transient CC.

On 2018-09-27 at 11:40 AM, ShortCat said:

1. - Fireball: fire damage and fire proc CC. Augment - fire damage buff
2. - Accelerant: more fire damage and CC via panic animation (from fire proc, minus the damage component) & castspeed. Augment - fire damage buff
3. - Fireblast: fire damage and fire proc CC. Augment - fire proc CC.
4. - WoF: fire damage and fire proc CC. Augment - knock down (as efefctive as fire proc CC)

Ember's abilities stripped to the bones.

On execution. #1 can block a door for 10sec, but you usually want enemies come to you and as a hard area denial this skill is mediocre. Same principle for #3; enemies can run past the slim ring, as there is always a brief pause between two consecutive fire procs - 3sec of CC for 75 energy is a waste. Speaking of area controll - even #1 is better. Displacement CC (knock down) is as long as a panic animation from #2, but Accelerant costs less, is immediate (no travel time) has bigger range and no LoS with a nice debuff bonus. The pushing effect is not strong enough to be usefull. At least in the past you could push Nullifiers with it. #3 competes with #1 for area controll, or with #2 for CC and damage buff - and loses.

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Okay, but I just finished talking about fixing Ember by allowing Heat procs to stack damage. If that happened, the procs would be co-operating with each other instead of competing. And so if that were changed and Heat procs did stack, most of her abilities proccing Heat (and another multiplying proc damage) would be really, really effective.

Even if fire procs would stack, I do not see me using #1 or #3 to stack them. Energy is better spent on #4 with its supperior damage and auto-function or on #2 for massive debuff; time is better spent just shooting enemies with a weapon. Ember's skills compete with each other and weapons for fire procs or damage. 3 abilities with similar effects is the definition of redundance; just one with a reliable functionality is enough. This would make room for new skills, which could expand available options in contrast to her current one-dimensional design.

[Arcira]

9 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That stretch is optional also means you could play rage/hunter and sorry but how exactly isn't a 210% strength build not utilicing WoF's damage potential? That's literally 4k dps spamming fire proccs around you at all times, what also massively lowers your need to spam accelerant "every 3 seconds" - though you'd gain enough energy to just do that. More Cc focus? Replace transient.

With a Rage/Hunter it might be possible to sustain more than 3.5 energy per second on overheat WoF + Accelerant spam + QT. I don´t think it´s practicable though.

With your build on the other hand defnitly not. At least if you don´t have 1 or 2 maxed Arcane Energize.

Your proc chance on WoF is only ~72% as well. If you want to use it as an actual somewhat reliable defense tool you either need more power strength or Firequake. Even a single gunner is partially able to hit you while under the effect of WoF. It isn´t an Ignis where you can affort lower proc chance because of the high fire rate. Fun fact: Ignis is capable of permanatly stagger an enemy while embers heat procs can´t do this.

Also 4k dps you are kidding right? Weapons can have several ten thousdands of dps and are capable of stripping armor at the same time which can be hundred thousands or millions of ehp damage.

9 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I'm also not suprised that you can't actually do anything in those levels saying that. Not her fault that you bring the wrong tools for high levels.

I never said I can´t do high level content. I said there are missions litterally impossible for me to do with Ember. For example this Sortie mission against Hyena Pack including massive amounts of Nullifier stacking.

The problem remains the only thing she provides is weak ability damage and cc which become even less usefull with more and more nullifier mechanics added to the game.

But in general I don´t have a problem with high level missions but that´s because of my melee build. Most of the time I don´t use my abilities at all which means I could play litterally any Warframe.

9 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

How many survivability mods do you have on your inaros so he can? There's also the option to make a max range, max strength tornado build with him but you probably don't.

Full tank. I don´t use a single efficiency, range or power mod. Does surprisingly good clearspeed. I wonder why this is ... maybe weapons are broken? ...nah...

Edited October 18, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Arcira:

Full tank. I don´t use a single efficiency, range or power mod. Does surprisingly good clearspeed. I wonder why this is ... maybe weapons are broken? ...nah...

And yet you don't. Yet you didn't open a thread about inaros don't working out on a similar build you're trying to force onto your ember appearently. 

Both, WoF and Inaros sandstorm have theyr similaritys... both are damage, both are Cc, both can set status. Neather of them have 70m range right now... inaros even has this synergy with devour that heals him with devourable enemies in range and a reduction on top, what makes it an arguable good choice to build for. Sandstorm also isn't the cheapest channel in the rooster but there's also rage for him. How come you don't build for sandstorm on inaros? How come you can dedicate his entire build to tanking and Cc without batting an eye while at the same time refusing to do the something similar on ember?

 

If there's a single issue with her right now then it's the fact she could keep this toxic meta of her for that long. It's not that she couldn't do well in high levels or that she's in any way a bad frame...hell, with how her WoF reduces enemies shooting at you, she's probably even among the best candidates for that new mod (what kills you most of the time isn't damage quality but quantity after all. It takes a looong time until single pellets can do anything to you.) and yet people can't get the idea out of theyr head that she's supposed to be min/maxed towards nothing but her WoF simply because it worked for so long.

Seriously, try doing the same with ember. Try that build of mine, go for rage over transient if you wish to and use guardian instead. I doubt that you'll have issues with anything that the game will throw at you.

Edited October 18, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Arcira]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

And yet you don't. Yet you didn't open a thread about inaros don't working out on a similar build you're trying to force onto your ember appearently.

Both, WoF and Inaros sandstorm have theyr similaritys... both are damage, both are Cc, both can set status. Neather of them have 70m range right now... inaros even has this synergy with devour that heals him with devourable enemies in range and a reduction on top, what makes it an arguable good choice to build for. Sandstorm also isn't the cheapest channel in the rooster but there's also rage for him. How come you don't build for sandstorm on inaros? How come you can dedicate his entire build to tanking and Cc without batting an eye while at the same time refusing to do the something similar on ember?

Wtf are you talking? You reverse anything I have said so far. I hate building Ember tanky but it´s the most effective way for me.Also Inaros and Ember arn´t even remotely comparable.

For example as far as I can tell by now Sandstorm isn´t that useful. At least not with my build. I don´t build for it because of the exact same reason I don´t bother building Ember for range or power strength. His cc is affected by immunities as well and the damage is lackluster.

However the BIG difference is he doesn´t rely on his abilities at all. Also self buffs aren´t affected for the most part. At least if you don´t run straigth into a Nullifier bubble. And he doesn´t have to deal with bs mechanics like QT stagger.

56 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

If there's a single issue with her right now then it's the fact she could keep this toxic meta of her for that long. It's not that she couldn't do well in high levels or that she's in any way a bad frame...hell, with how her WoF reduces enemies shooting at you, she's probably even among the best candidates for that new mod (what kills you most of the time isn't damage quality but quantity after all. It takes a looong time until single pellets can do anything to you.) and yet people can't get the idea out of theyr head that she's supposed to be min/maxed towards nothing but her WoF simply because it worked for so long.

Seriously, try doing the same with ember. Try that build of mine, go for rage over transient if you wish to. I doubt that you'll have issues with anything that the game will throw at you.

What do you think was the first thing I have done after receiving Adaption? Is it good? Yes no doupt! Does it solve the problem with Ember? Not at all. Your very first sentence was that I´m trying to force a defense build on Ember (which isn´t true still) and yet you suggest just that. Also what will happen after this one becomes mandatory? Either a nerf or a difficulty adjustment.

Your build is the one I have scraped after the changes. I´m quite familiar with the capabilities.

Still waiting for your weapon build

Edited October 18, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 18.10.2018 um 03:33 schrieb Arcira:

This kind of build is exactly what I´ve expected you are neither make use of WoF "damage potential" or any buff aspects via augments people are praising. You are playing a mere debuffer ranged melee build.

You are neather using it's "damage potential" or any status aspect via auguments so that's that really.

Ember is pretty much in the same league he is, with a bigger focus towards active Cc rather then pure basestats. One that can easily be a strong supporter too or a choice to take care of anything from low to high levels with ease so what is it we really gonna blame her for? That she isn't a pure tank or a pure damager? Can't we have jack-of-all-trades kinda frames without everyone loosing theyr minds about how specialised frames are better in theyr nieche? Your inaros doesn't Cc, damage or buff for everyone, does he?

Edited October 19, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108