What is conclave? we need a better PvP (and other player vs player related things)

[Sloan441]

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎17 at 10:44 AM, Drip_dip said:

I havent been playing warframe for too long...

Quit reading right here, because we've seen this many times before. It's not new. 

The fact is the community is not interested particularly in PvP. Every time DE introduces some form of it, it languishes. The community simply is not interested in it and has very little use for it. The ghost towns of Conclave and Lunaro speak for themselves. 

PvP doesn't tend to bring out the best of a community. Usually quite the opposite. I do play a few team based PvP games, but those are different games. I don't want it here. It is NEVER a positive in a heavily PvE oriented game. It always causes problems, both in balance and the community at large. 

No. Bad idea. 

[TheFranss]

I see the Conclave as it's own unique experience. I personally sum it up as some UT game registered to third person only.

 

Damn. Why don't we get conclave that way? No loadouts, but weapons are scattered around the level and everyone starts with Lato or Lex

[SneakyErvin]

As it has been mentioned already, it isnt a good idea to introduce PvP into a co-op PvE game. The only few times it works well is when you have different factions fighting eachother, like Horde vs Alliance in WoW, the servers in GW2 or the 3 factions in ESO or DaoC.

It keeps the unity within each faction, with everyone having a common goal etc.

Warframe PvP seems twitchy and imbalanced at best, much like the PvP they had in Marvel Heroes. Both being afterthoughts and not part of the core focus. Remove that crap and introduce the Grineer vs Corpus to get a balanced playfield and an easier time to tweak what needs tweaking further down the road. Trying to balance 30ish frames and several hundred weapons will simply never work.

 

[Vesiga]

If I want PvP I'll play BDO. Keep it in those types of games. 

It barely has a place in Warframe, any time a new pvp mode has come out here, we play it for a week or two and give up on it. 

[Emulad0or]

We have better PvP already, it is called Frame Fighter, and it is as much PvP as this game needs. No need for DE to waste time with this PvP nonsense when they have more important stuff to do, like Hydroid Prime trailer for exemple...

[Kuestenjung]

Am 17.10.2018 um 23:27 schrieb Dark_Chroma_Prime:

OR we just delete conclave completely

I am wondering why this hasn´t happened so far, looking at the Raids.

Am 17.10.2018 um 16:44 schrieb Drip_dip:

PvE is great but its short lived because of the difficulty in creating new and interesting content. Competitive games will always have the edge in the market, it creates longevity. If warframe were to implement more of this it could very well be the best game in existence.

That´s why games like Warframe, Payday and Killing Floor are still played after several year while we get a new CoD every year and a new Battlefield every 2 years?

 

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Kuestenjung

[Talonflight]

4 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

I am wondering why this hasn´t happened so far, looking at the Raids.

That´s why games like Warframe, Payday and Killing Floor are still played after several year while we get a new CoD every year and a new Battlefield every 2 years?

 

 

These are bad examples, because Killing Floor PvP is still active, and because Payday's base gameplay is challenging and skill-rewarding enough to keep you coming back for more even after you have good gear.

[Drip_dip]

I dont understand why I have to keep saying this but if your not interested in PvP why are u commenting? I made this post to discuss the issues with PvP and how we can make it better for those who do like it and would prefer it to be like other PvE games. Constructive criticism please. Also anyone who can tell me more about the previous versions of conclave please do comment. I believe making PvP like how it is in other PvE games is a very viable option as conclave is already there. Im trying to open a panel here where if DE ever decides to go in this direction there will be a wealth of information for them to go on. So again if you are not interested in PvP or the contents of this topic dont bash others ideas. If you want PvP gone go open your own post with a title along that line. You wont find me coming to your post bashing your no PvP idea.

[Drip_dip]

19 hours ago, Sloan441 said:

Quit reading right here, because we've seen this many times before. It's not new. 

The fact is the community is not interested particularly in PvP. Every time DE introduces some form of it, it languishes. The community simply is not interested in it and has very little use for it. The ghost towns of Conclave and Lunaro speak for themselves. 

PvP doesn't tend to bring out the best of a community. Usually quite the opposite. I do play a few team based PvP games, but those are different games. I don't want it here. It is NEVER a positive in a heavily PvE oriented game. It always causes problems, both in balance and the community at large. 

No. Bad idea. 

Im glad you want to take the thought power of the whole forum on your shoulders and say they dont want this. In my experience people dont know what they want until they see it. Have you thought that maybe what they are introducing is not the right mode? Maybe conclave is ghost because these particular modes are not what people want? From what Ive seen PvE players dont want closed arena fights as it takes focus away from all the things a warframe can do. I dont see many PvE games with the CoD type game modes warframe has. Most are open world fights. I can agree that introducing PvP can have some adverse effects but it is already in the game, were not making something entirely new.

Please give examples, even from your own experience, of problems being caused in balance and the community specifically with PvE games that have an open PvP area(because this is what the discussion is about, nothing else.)

 

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

As it has been mentioned already, it isnt a good idea to introduce PvP into a co-op PvE game. The only few times it works well is when you have different factions fighting eachother, like Horde vs Alliance in WoW, the servers in GW2 or the 3 factions in ESO or DaoC.

It keeps the unity within each faction, with everyone having a common goal etc.

Warframe PvP seems twitchy and imbalanced at best, much like the PvP they had in Marvel Heroes. Both being afterthoughts and not part of the core focus. Remove that crap and introduce the Grineer vs Corpus to get a balanced playfield and an easier time to tweak what needs tweaking further down the road. Trying to balance 30ish frames and several hundred weapons will simply never work.

 

This is why I mentioned a dominating system. Your not fighting each other but rather fighting for top place. Correct me if Im wrong but werent there leader boards previously? What would you say about the Simaris Leaderboard? Dont get stuck in old ways of thinking. There many ways to tackle this problem. But if your not interested in warframe PvP i dont see you putting in the effort to think of solutions.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Drip_dip said:

This is why I mentioned a dominating system. Your not fighting each other but rather fighting for top place. Correct me if Im wrong but werent there leader boards previously? What would you say about the Simaris Leaderboard? Dont get stuck in old ways of thinking. There many ways to tackle this problem. But if your not interested in warframe PvP i dont see you putting in the effort to think of solutions.

Leaderboards are even worse than actual PvP in a co-op centered game. It doesnt even involve skill, it only matters who has the most time to spend to perfect their conditions in whatever setting the leaderboard is added. WF is the worst case scenario too with 30+ frames all with different balance and options. They'd need one specific leaderboard for each single frame and even more balance work needed to make it useful. This would impact PvE even more than PvP currently does since leaderboards would take place in PvE and things would be buffed/nerfed because of that. In Conclave there is seperate balance that has zero impact on PvE.

PvP in a game is only worthwhile when everyone has the exact same starter conditions and personal skill is the only thing that differentiates people. Like in games such as Battlefield, CoD and Overwatch. Either they are balanced or in the case of Overwatch you have good counter options, which kinda comes down to skill through knowledge. In Battlefield you dont need to grind out the last gun or attachment in order to have the best weapon in the game, at times the first one you get may actually be the one you'll stick with forever.

The simaris leaderboard is the ultimate leaderboard type of fail in games. Much similar to the dumpster fire leaderboards that were present in Marvel Heroes during their Danger Room events. Complete and total trash. It was one of those places that caused certain heroes to be nerfed because of excelling at one single aspect of the game that came around once in a while.

[FlusteredFerret]

Feel free to correct me / shoot me down / tell me its already been mentioned, but...

How about turning the Index into a PvP mode?

I say this, as my only experience so far is from doing the Glast Gambit quest, where you play against Anyo's brokers. I feel that could be a fun PvP mode, where the object is scoring points, rather than trying to kill each other (though you can do both).

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[Drip_dip]

7 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Leaderboards are even worse than actual PvP in a co-op centered game. It doesnt even involve skill, it only matters who has the most time to spend to perfect their conditions in whatever setting the leaderboard is added. WF is the worst case scenario too with 30+ frames all with different balance and options. They'd need one specific leaderboard for each single frame and even more balance work needed to make it useful. This would impact PvE even more than PvP currently does since leaderboards would take place in PvE and things would be buffed/nerfed because of that. In Conclave there is seperate balance that has zero impact on PvE.

PvP in a game is only worthwhile when everyone has the exact same starter conditions and personal skill is the only thing that differentiates people. Like in games such as Battlefield, CoD and Overwatch. Either they are balanced or in the case of Overwatch you have good counter options, which kinda comes down to skill through knowledge. In Battlefield you dont need to grind out the last gun or attachment in order to have the best weapon in the game, at times the first one you get may actually be the one you'll stick with forever.

The simaris leaderboard is the ultimate leaderboard type of fail in games. Much similar to the dumpster fire leaderboards that were present in Marvel Heroes during their Danger Room events. Complete and total trash. It was one of those places that caused certain heroes to be nerfed because of excelling at one single aspect of the game that came around once in a while.

Thanks SneakyErvin. Some clarity. So to be more specific about the leader boards(or dominating system) it would work a little something like this. Your alliance or clan or custom made squad fights in this open world arena and the more points they accumulate(through kills or bonuses) the more their overall dominating percentage goes up. Its most likely that the biggest alliances will be at the top of the boards but such is in every PvE game. There is little balancing required as the whole point is to have bad situation that you have to figure your way out. If theres one OP person then go 4v1. Im not saying it would be perfect but it might be worth playing more than conclave. The PvP with similar starting items is not common in PvE games like GW2, WOW, ESO or Eve online that share a similar dynamic space with WF. Yes it is a good idea but its not warframe, its now something else again. My main points for this are Same warframe abilities, open world arena, higher limit of able to join players. When it comes to balancing, i see more balancing in games that are purely focused on PvP which is not what i want for this game. In my experience ESO and Eve online do not balance often. Having said that I feel there would be little balancing required here if the things I mentioned in previous posts were implemented.

Thanks for the Simaris Leadereboard info as I dont play that that much. I did not know it was that bad. Im not sure I understand from the way you are depicting the leaderboards but My assumption would be that it would be clan/alliance based, the ones with the most points is at the top of the board. Staying at the top earns you things for your dojo, not the normal rewards you would get. This keeps the PvP fights out of the PvE game.

[-Himari-]

Moved to a proper section.

[Drip_dip]

18 hours ago, -Himari- said:

Moved to a proper section.

Thank you so much for the move.