Marelok Riven debate: is low disposition justified?

[Artekkor]

Recently i got a riven for Marelok. For a moment there i was hyped, because i sort of like Vaykor Marelok (at the very least for fashion) and would be happy to have a reason to use it.
But then i saw the numbers and its just... I honestly have no reason to use that riven. Why would i pay almost 8000 endo and something like 500.000 credits for a mod that is probably less efficient than any of the normal ones i already have? Vaykor doesnt even suffer from any particular inconviniences like slow reload speed or projectile speed or anything of that kind.

Now why this upsets me... Is because i have issues with Vaykor Marelok regarding its' power.
Im probably at extreme minority here, but i just dont like how Vaykor Marelok performs. There are multiple reasons for that:

1. For a pistol with a fairly long barel (longer than some others) it has a very bad accuracy. The only way to be sure is to use it close range like some kind of shotgun. In which cays i would be using shotgun like Brakk, right?
2. Critical stats are not worth investing. 20% crit chance is good enough, but x1.5 crit damage offsets it completely.
3. Status chance builds - which marelok should be all about according to its' stats - are just not worth it.
   - Fire rate is too slow to utilize corrosion. And low accuracy isn't helping either.
   - Marelok does not hit hard enough to justify gas builds, mostly because grineer are VERY resistant to it, so it does nothing to them in higher levels.
   - Viral / Radiation is probably the best bet, but again - vaykor doesn't hit hard enough and radiation as a proc - from my peason experience) - does nothing useful.

So, generally speaking: Vaykor Marelok is too slow to justify status builds, doesnt have a worthy crit potential and raw damage... Well, we all know what happened to Boltor Prime until it was transformed into (far better) status monster.

I just can't get the thing to work no matter how much i experiment with my builds. I try to avoid fire rate (so no lethal torrent) because i want to keep that "slow but powerful and calculated" feel (mostly because the "swinging reload" animation gets silly with high fire rate, and i will intentionally not shoot until its done).
From my personal experience a fair bit of other secondaries just perform better and in a more reliable way... Includung Lex Prime (obviously), AkJagara, Pandero and some others.

So i was quiet hyped to get a riven for it and hopefully fix it for me. But nope, with those numbers i might as well use... I dont know, that "accuracy on hit" mod? Seeing how i cant hit anything past something like... 20 meters?
I asked people in region chat multiple times to share some good and reliable build that works, but NOBODY provided one, nobody even tried to in fact.

So here i come to ask: is Vaykor Marelok still considered a powerful weapon in comparison to other secondaries available?
Is such label justified considering all the inconviniences and contradictions (accuracy and direct corelation of status' efficiency to fire rate, when vaykor is clearly not intended to be fast)?
And as a conclusion out of previous question - is 1/5 disposition justified then? Why not 3/5 or at least 2/5 so that there was at least a possibility to get a desirable set of stats / stat?

Because so far i genuinely feel like the answer to all 3 of these is "No."
But that's just my personal opinion.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Artek94

[GnarlsDarkley]

Quote

is low disposition justified?

It was when this system was introduced because V. Marelok was hell of a weapon

It this still the case?

Sure not. After the balance pass there are so many better Pistols with higher dispositions.

Why is it like this?

Because DE is too lazy about updating these. (Quote by [DE]Steve on Twitter: We have dropped the ball of Disposition updates)

Edited November 6, 2018 by GnarlsDarkley

[Rhyandra]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb GnarlsDarkley:

It was when this system was introduced because V. Marelok was hell of a weapon

It this still the case?

Sure not. After the balance pass there are so many better Pistols with higher dispositions.

Why is it like this?

Because DE is too lazy about updating these. (Quote by [DE]Steve on Twitter: We have dropped the ball of Disposition updates)

 

[IceColdHawk]

13 hours ago, Artek94 said:

• For a pistol with a fairly long barel (longer than some others) it has a very bad accuracy. The only way to be sure is to use it close range like some kind of shotgun. In which cays i would be using shotgun like Brakk, right

Must be new, sadly. It used to hit pretty accurate before the weapon rebalance.

13 hours ago, Artek94 said:

•  Critical stats are not worth investing. 20% crit chance is good enough, but x1.5 crit damage offsets it completely.

Don't be deceived. This is a common misconception that just because the crit multiplier isn't 3x or higher that it's not worth to build crit. It's the exact same as saying you don't need Serration on Soma because of it's low base damage. All you need in order to build for crit is a usable crit chance that gets you crits often enough to profit off the crit damage. Then, a crit damage mod with +110% crit damage will always give you 110% more damage on crit. No matter how high the base multiplier is. While throwing more and more elementals loses it's effectiveness instead since you're adding more and more additive boni instead of multiplicative.

13 hours ago, Artek94 said:

 Status chance builds - which marelok should be all about according to its' stats - are just not worth it.

I highly beg to differ. I do agree that corrosive isn't worth using (for status that is) on low fire rate weapons. You just take way too much time procing corrosive on enemies that you could just, you know, kill instead. But some weapons are eligible to build for slash procs. Fortunately, Vaykor Marelok has a high enough slash stat in order to be built for it. Not all weapons can do this.

This is what i'd use to fight against grineer/void:

Spoiler

Frostbite because more status chance and cold procs help to prolong slash procs which translates into more damage. Can kill a Corrupted Bombard lvl 155 just fine.

It's definitely not the best weapon anymore. But it's certainly still viable and a good choice for those who'd like to play a hybrid revolver-style secondary. No comment about the justification of the riven dispo because, as explained above, it's a widely known issue that dispos are all but balanced.

[(PSN)teacup775]

Should DE decide to pick up the ball, they could ditch disposition entirely to replace with a systemic upgrade system where people can farm for, select and pay (kuva) to increment specific stats.  A weak weapon would take more effort to make godlike, and perhaps advancement can be mastery gated but kuva farming could be a progressive process and not (so much) RNG. This would allow people to make weapons their own and put love into them if they want.

[Artekkor]

2 часа назад, (PS4)teacup775 сказал:

Should DE decide to pick up the ball, they could ditch disposition entirely to replace with a systemic upgrade system where people can farm for, select and pay (kuva) to increment specific stats.  A weak weapon would take more effort to make godlike, and perhaps advancement can be mastery gated but kuva farming could be a progressive process and not (so much) RNG. This would allow people to make weapons their own and put love into them if they want.

Im afraid such a system would create a gigaantic power creep. People would absolutely go an extra mile to make their Tigris Prime even more powerfull than already is.

Disposition system makes sense to me (mostly), its just its a system that requires constant adjustment and DE doesn't seem to have time for it.

[(PSN)teacup775]

18 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

Im afraid such a system would create a gigaantic power creep. People would absolutely go an extra mile to make their Tigris Prime even more powerfull than already is.

Disposition system makes sense to me (mostly), its just its a system that requires constant adjustment and DE doesn't seem to have time for it.

Not if the stats were capped or became exponentially more expensive to level out side of some range. Others have suggested base stat enhancement which may be better suited.

I’ve never been a fan of gambling  rng because really good and dedicated players can get screwed and lucky so so get gold. I know a couple of amazing players that rnjeezus really hates.

[Artekkor]

42 минуты назад, (PS4)teacup775 сказал:

Not if the stats were capped or became exponentially more expensive to level out side of some range. Others have suggested base stat enhancement which may be better suited.

I’ve never been a fan of gambling  rng because really good and dedicated players can get screwed and lucky so so get gold. I know a couple of amazing players that rnjeezus really hates.

What i could get behind is paying a decent amount of kuva (lets say current roll price x3) to lock a stat in its place. So that next time you roll you would get a stat that you liked (fixed in there permanently) + a new stat.

If the locked stat was buffed due to having a negative - a negative would stay as a negative, but new negative stat would roll each time.

Or you could lock the negative and all stat past that have a negative buff on them.
Then you lock one of the positives and just keep rolling the last one which you can never lock again.
Trading a riven destroys all locks and next roll will roll it all.

[(PSN)teacup775]

44 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

What i could get behind is paying a decent amount of kuva (lets say current roll price x3) to lock a stat in its place. So that next time you roll you would get a stat that you liked (fixed in there permanently) + a new stat.

If the locked stat was buffed due to having a negative - a negative would stay as a negative, but new negative stat would roll each time.

Or you could lock the negative and all stat past that have a negative buff on them.
Then you lock one of the positives and just keep rolling the last one which you can never lock again.
Trading a riven destroys all locks and next roll will roll it all.

Sure. One streamer suggested something like that and its similar to stat refinement system for reaper of souls. I’d be fine with a system that rewarded dedicated refinement for the stats you want (with limits and perhaps trade offs like zaw links).

DE is already adding kit guns, a modular system. Rivens could just be another way to make any weapon good in a progressive way. It could also be a seen as a way to “master” that weapon in a way that made sense.

[Phatose]

Riven mod disposition is supposed to make it so rivens power up unpopular weapons, and don't help very popular weapons much.  A system which doesn't do that is missing the point of rivens entirely.

We'd be much better off with a simple automated disposition changed based on usage stats, so that weapons that become popular automatically drop in disposition, while unused weapons move up.  That way, if a weapon gets nerfed or outclassed by something new, the popularity drop automatically increases it's disposition as negative feedback, while weapons which become flavor of the week due to buffs, newness, new builds, etc, are automatically subject to disposition drops to offset.

I honestly don't know why they didn't work that way from the get go.

[GSDAkatsuki]

10 hours ago, Phatose said:

Riven mod disposition is supposed to make it so rivens power up unpopular weapons, and don't help very popular weapons much.  A system which doesn't do that is missing the point of rivens entirely.

We'd be much better off with a simple automated disposition changed based on usage stats, so that weapons that become popular automatically drop in disposition, while unused weapons move up.  That way, if a weapon gets nerfed or outclassed by something new, the popularity drop automatically increases it's disposition as negative feedback, while weapons which become flavor of the week due to buffs, newness, new builds, etc, are automatically subject to disposition drops to offset.

I honestly don't know why they didn't work that way from the get go.

Too low a priority to implement, even though it's the most sensible change. We are stuck with old OP meta weapons that got nerfed to hell and no one uses anymore still retaining level 1 disposition. New weapons that are clearly stupidly powerful getting disposition of 3 or higher. Some weapons that are only situationally used for just one dumb game mode, Eidolon hunting, and it gets nerfed hurting players that like using the weapons outside of just Eidolon Hunting. Rivens were always a bad idea, and only implemented to give players some other end game option for min-maxing.

[HUNDarkTemplar]

On 2018-11-08 at 5:56 AM, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Sure. One streamer suggested something like that and its similar to stat refinement system for reaper of souls. I’d be fine with a system that rewarded dedicated refinement for the stats you want (with limits and perhaps trade offs like zaw links).

DE is already adding kit guns, a modular system. Rivens could just be another way to make any weapon good in a progressive way. It could also be a seen as a way to “master” that weapon in a way that made sense.

Doesn sound too bad, also an other post is here about riven mods affecting base stats, which is not too stupid. Stronger weapons would benefit less and weak weapons would benefit that much more. 
My problem with riven mods however is that the dispositions are sure not right. Some weapons I never see and are not meta and have S#&$ dispositions and arent even op by stats and still have S#&$ dispositions. While some weapons like the opticor have good dispositions, while they arent even near being mr fodder or weak and they get 4-5 disposition. 

[(PSN)teacup775]

1 hour ago, HUNDarkTemplar said:

Doesn sound too bad, also an other post is here about riven mods affecting base stats, which is not too stupid. Stronger weapons would benefit less and weak weapons would benefit that much more. 
My problem with riven mods however is that the dispositions are sure not right. Some weapons I never see and are not meta and have S#&$ dispositions and arent even op by stats and still have S#&$ dispositions. While some weapons like the opticor have good dispositions, while they arent even near being mr fodder or weak and they get 4-5 disposition. 

And this situation is a good reason to eliminate the need for disposition for a system where a weapon's stats could be improved in a balanced way.. and indeed if there were mission combat elements that involved more than big guns. Finisher damage is an instance of a mechanic over raw power. Stat sticks are another (not used them myself so eh not very knowledgable about it).

As satisfying as crushing bubble wrap can be, the activity as a 'power fantasy' has limits.

[Reisbig2009]

I agree the Vaykor Marelok disposition rating, not to mention the base Marelok even, is a bit out of touch. I have never really seen anyone using it. Also, there are many other weapons with much more impressive stats than it, and better riven dispositions, that are much more popular than it. Talk about being neglected.