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Graive

Can we get more mods that help with sentinel survival?

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Giving frames and operators an inate 11.5m pick up radius would free up a mod slot for our companions which would be greatly appreciated. For sentinel survivability, the existing mods that boost health, shield, armor could be removed and instead have our link mods be universal to any kind of companion. That way it is easier to boost their survivability and with the addition of a "pack leader" for sentinels, would make them last much longer in high lvl content. If the universal link doesn't float, we could go back to a link ability mod but at a certain % ex. 1k hp Iron skin --> 250hp iron skin for the sentinel or any other type of warframe buff but with the same concept of a reduced strength.

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I am up for passive innate vaacum for frames and operators because that free up a slot both companion types and we can get our loots too. If not a maxed but a 7-8 meter radius loot range would be nice and that still wants from the players to move and use parkour to avoid enemy fire. 

Those builds whom not want vaacum can have a feature called energy stack and you can use energy later not instant. The limit can be100-200 energy.

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Sentinels are pretty much usable in starchart only. Anything above that and they die when an enemy just looks at them, unless you are using specific frames like invisibility frames or DR frames like Gara, Nezha. Now with fetch, I can at least use pets that i can keep alive longer, when doing game modes like Arbitration, whilst the sentinels will be dead within first rotations.

Not having a passive loot pick up with a decent radius is one of the dumbest things in this game. It goes so much against the type of game Warframe is, that it feels like its a bug, rather then a deliberate choice by the developers.

Makes me feel like the devs that are responsible for this choice are living in the past. Game has evolved and become faster, yet the loot pickups are still the same. Its the end of 2018 and we JUST got fetch. Thats just terrible.

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1 hour ago, Sziklamester said:

I am up for passive innate vaacum for frames and operators because that free up a slot both companion types and we can get our loots too. If not a maxed but a 7-8 meter radius loot range would be nice and that still wants from the players to move and use parkour to avoid enemy fire. 

Those builds whom not want vaacum can have a feature called energy stack and you can use energy later not instant. The limit can be100-200 energy.

You've got me here, both ideas seem fair and solid to me.A reduced innate pickup forces players to move, and a way to mitigate energy (and health since thats become a thing) would make sense. I think you accurately addressed my concerns others have missed (or failed to argue). For me, a large innate vacuum makes sense for more seasoned players, but would definitely stop a greater number of new players from learning the actual game mechanics (and tbh it surprises me people just don't get this when their are so many horrible limbo players, haha).

But yea, I agree, a smart innate pick-up would free up a slot.

Edited by Graive

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2 minutes ago, Graive said:

You've got me here, both ideas seem fair and solid to me.

The main problem is with this if this is not a turnable option from the menu then some peoples will argue because many not want the loot storm. 

The solution for hp, energy orbs and even ammo surplus is the extended capacity which stored but it could be limited so those whom against it can be happy.

 

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8 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

The solution for hp, energy orbs and even ammo surplus is the extended capacity which stored but it could be limited so those whom against it can be happy.

 

Sorry I don't get what you mean. I'm probably just dense, but would you mind explaining a bit more? I really want to know. 

Nevermind I get it now. kind of like a hold mechanic. Although I can see problems with that too (mainly that its innate on some mods anyway, ie. health conversion stacks 3x's, yet another ui element, using the item on hold isn't at the users discretion, etc.). I think the mod route they went was the easiest, but probably had the most advantages, though I'm not sure they considered all of them.

Edited by Graive

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On 2018-12-11 at 7:00 AM, Leyers_of_facade said:

Typically, they do survive a lot longer if you don't equip a weapon on them.

On the matter of their ability to survive (or the lack of actually), they are in a similar case with the companions. Neither does a good job at keeping themselves alive.

To be honest, at this point I am tempted to suggest that any buffs (damage reductions eg mesa's shatter shield, armor eg iron skin, invulnerability eg hysteria) applied to the player is automatically applied to their companion / sentinel. It would probably solve most issues but I honestly don't think its a good idea

When I started on Orb Vallis, I used Helios for the codex entries and while farming toroids on max alert, it was impossible to keep sentinel alive with all the enemy aoe artillery while I myself had no issue at all. Companions can be revived over and over again at least so you don't eventually lose your vacuum/loot-enemy radar and other perks, and you get charm from smeeta aswell. Up until max alert aoe, I really never had an issue with sentinel survability because I was never bombarded that hard with AoEs before I could kill enemies in tinier maps/tunnels/rooms.

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4 hours ago, Graive said:

Sorry I actually disagree with this opinion. I'm happy they added fetch, I do think vacuum is a good addition, but I also think having it intrinsic is a bad idea for 2 specific reasons. 1. there are some builds i don't want vacuum on to space out energy pickups (especially builds using energy conversion) and 2. I feel like new players need to learn the risk/reward of picking up items in game. Learning to roll to reduce damage, move fast to reduce enemy accuracy, and discover/use warframe invulnerability frames are all a byproduct of this risk/reward system which would be easily bypassed by the combination of abilities and vacuum. By making it a choice which players work towards (in the form of a mod) the devs avoid these 2 issues. Just my opinion tho.

Well If they are going to keep Vacuum then Fetch was a requirement impo.

The reason I say it should be intrinsic is because really the Vacuum/Fetch mods are quality of life changing mods that just get in the way of actual Mod builds.
(IMPO I would be fine with the range being half of the fully upgraded mod in star chart missions, and Max range when in PoE or Fortuna.)
When really it shouldn't. Nearly all games of this kind have a generous pick-up radius for the character.

Learning to roll is basic combat, how does that equate to Vacuum? The only thing slightly handy for loot is Bullet Jumping as Mag.
There is no risk to picking up items either. They simply get ignored or missed.

Thanks to NSW, and Fortuna drawing in new players (to PS4) I've had (the rather entertaining) pleasure of watching folks play as a New Tenno. As a result with my knowledge of the game, getting to see fresh players in action, noticing how they play, listening to their likes & dislikes, I've come to look at the game in a new light.

Due to this I've noticed that, a lot of items go ignored if not downright missed in the chaos of battle. It isn't an issue of "risk vs reward" nor is it a "learning experience", it simply is not noticed.
However the few players who have noticed the short pick-up range have asked why the range is so short in a game this fast & action-packed. To them it slows down the game & isn't fun.

I think nothing of it, I've had a Kavat as my companion for years, so I'm use to grabbing my own loot but I also play solo so I have all the time in the world.
These new players don't feel that way. They feel pressured to keep up when in a group, and penalized when they turn around or go back to pick up an item.

I see where you are coming from minus the rolling part. Grabbing loot has never taught me anything about combat. I've never rolled to loot (intentionally) or thought about using roll to pick up loot when in combat.
Honestly, the only thing in this game that made me evaluate the battleground, how to navigate it, & come up with  a serious plan of action is when my Kavat gets downed; as reviving it leaves me wide open or can result in my own death. (This also applies to reviving my friends)

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2 minutes ago, YukimaruLegends said:

To be honest the whole sentinel system needs a lot of looking underneath.

You know what....
You have a serious point there.

They are indeed the easiest Companions to obtain in the game, however...they really do need a complete overhaul.

DE hasn't made it clear whether or not they are intended to be *quote fingers* "Starter Companions" *end quote fingers* with the goal being that they players are supposed to move on to Kubrows, Kavats & now Moas.

I get it that they are more of "Utility" pets than Kubrows & Kavats (I haven't made a Moa yet...can't speak for them...) but they really don't even excel at that aspect either to be honest.
They lack in Damage, Utility, Survivability, & CC.
The only useful aspect of them is that when they die you don't have to revive them & endanger yourself. But when they die...they are dead so...

Yeah. Sentinels need a rework, perhaps part of Pets 2.0?

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10 hours ago, Graive said:

Sorry I don't get what you mean. I'm probably just dense, but would you mind explaining a bit more? I really want to know. 

Nevermind I get it now. kind of like a hold mechanic. Although I can see problems with that too (mainly that its innate on some mods anyway, ie. health conversion stacks 3x's, yet another ui element, using the item on hold isn't at the users discretion, etc.). I think the mod route they went was the easiest, but probably had the most advantages, though I'm not sure they considered all of them.

I am sorry for that but my english is not so great as it is not my main language but I am happily see you figured out what I meant to say.

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The Djinn has a mod that revives it after a cooldown, endlessly.  It is what I use.

 

Things you can do to help your floating buddy survive include removing their weapon and methods of attack so they don't pull aggro until you go down.  Being mobile and air rolling will help you avoid most AoEs to help them survive.

 

My Nekros build for long duration survival missions uses this and it works very well.

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17 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Well If they are going to keep Vacuum then Fetch was a requirement impo.

The reason I say it should be intrinsic is because really the Vacuum/Fetch mods are quality of life changing mods that just get in the way of actual Mod builds.
(IMPO I would be fine with the range being half of the fully upgraded mod in star chart missions, and Max range when in PoE or Fortuna.)
When really it shouldn't. Nearly all games of this kind have a generous pick-up radius for the character.

Learning to roll is basic combat, how does that equate to Vacuum? The only thing slightly handy for loot is Bullet Jumping as Mag.
There is no risk to picking up items either. They simply get ignored or missed.

Thanks to NSW, and Fortuna drawing in new players (to PS4) I've had (the rather entertaining) pleasure of watching folks play as a New Tenno. As a result with my knowledge of the game, getting to see fresh players in action, noticing how they play, listening to their likes & dislikes, I've come to look at the game in a new light.

Due to this I've noticed that, a lot of items go ignored if not downright missed in the chaos of battle. It isn't an issue of "risk vs reward" nor is it a "learning experience", it simply is not noticed.
However the few players who have noticed the short pick-up range have asked why the range is so short in a game this fast & action-packed. To them it slows down the game & isn't fun.

I think nothing of it, I've had a Kavat as my companion for years, so I'm use to grabbing my own loot but I also play solo so I have all the time in the world.
These new players don't feel that way. They feel pressured to keep up when in a group, and penalized when they turn around or go back to pick up an item.

I see where you are coming from minus the rolling part. Grabbing loot has never taught me anything about combat. I've never rolled to loot (intentionally) or thought about using roll to pick up loot when in combat.
Honestly, the only thing in this game that made me evaluate the battleground, how to navigate it, & come up with  a serious plan of action is when my Kavat gets downed; as reviving it leaves me wide open or can result in my own death. (This also applies to reviving my friends)

I think I understand where you're coming from with this, but then I think about occasions such as picking up argon crystals and it makes me disagree. Newer players (lets say under 500hrs here) need forma, don't want to spend plat, and often don't have the survival-ability mods/builds vets have. In defense missions specifically, these conditions give the game's mechanics a chance to shine over simple warframe abilities. These conditions aren't present for every mission, and aren't needed for every player, but I do believe they are initially beneficial for most (whether they're aware of it or not).

In regard to limiting builds, I agree it does, but at the same time I've always thought this was by design anyway; after all, isn't that what the mod systems purpose is in general? The devs want to limit our choice to add complexity to the game, and simply stating other games do something so warframe should too is hard logic for me to understand. Afterall, if warframe just copied other games' mechanics we wouldn't have the game we know and love today. I'm cool if I've failed to convince you my perspective on things, I don't think either of our opinions on this matter will change anything seeing as how they've already implemented something recently after taking so long to. I just wish more people would be willing to see both sides of the argument and not say one side doesn't have any merit when it actually does.

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8 hours ago, SweetJackal said:

The Djinn has a mod that revives it after a cooldown, endlessly.  It is what I use.

 

Things you can do to help your floating buddy survive include removing their weapon and methods of attack so they don't pull aggro until you go down.  Being mobile and air rolling will help you avoid most AoEs to help them survive.

Djinn is one of several sentinels, it'd be nice to have more options wouldn't it? regarding un-equipping weapons, I do the same with Shade, but if your objective is to use a sentinel for more than a loot radar, fashion, or having fetch equipped (so using them to assist with attacking, spreading status, or dropping health orbs with the synth set) then you're pretty much SOL with the current options.

Edited by Graive
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20 minutes ago, Graive said:

I think I understand where you're coming from with this, but then I think about occasions such as picking up argon crystals and it makes me disagree. Newer players (lets say under 500hrs here) need forma, don't want to spend plat, and often don't have the survival-ability mods/builds vets have. In defense missions specifically, these conditions give the game's mechanics a chance to shine over simple warframe abilities.

I admit you lost me here.

I'm not seeing how new players failing to notice or pick up Argon Crystal's helps them in any way. If anything it'd create frustration. As we're discussing Vacuum, I'm confused as to having it being passive would effect missions & the new player experience in a negative way.

What mechanics are you speaking of that Vacuum would deprive players from experiencing?

23 minutes ago, Graive said:

In regard to limiting builds, I agree it does, but at the same time I've always thought this was by design anyway; after all, isn't that what the mod systems purpose is in general? The devs want to limit our choice to add complexity to the game, and simply stating other games do something so warframe should too is hard logic for me to understand.

You mis-understood me on this point. But I also probably failed to convey my message with clarity.

You are right on Mod system; it is suppose to be a system where sacrifices & tough choices are made. Choices are limited to add a level of complexity.

Where we disagree is that a mod that is purely QoL offers what is an industry design standard is beig shoe-horned into that complexity when something that can be much more game changing/and in my opinion dynamic could replace it.

I'm not saying: "Other games do it. So Warframe should." For the sake of it.

What I meant was that QoL features such as a loot pick-up radius is generally a standard feature as it doesn't detract from the player experience.

Generally games that do not have a radius are slower in combat, feature less NPCs, & overall are a slower/more paced out experience.

Warframe obviously falls into the face paced, reflexive, & chaotic experience. Typically games in that field focus more on challenges in direct gameplay, not so much in item acquisition.

Does that make sense? I admit it sounds a lot clearer in my head.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I admit you lost me here.

I'm not seeing how new players failing to notice or pick up Argon Crystal's helps them in any way. If anything it'd create frustration. As we're discussing Vacuum, I'm confused as to having it being passive would effect missions & the new player experience in a negative way.

What mechanics are you speaking of that Vacuum would deprive players from experiencing?

I think it's best explained with an example (or at least this is how i make sense of it). You're playing a defense mission in the void and a Frost is on your team. The Frost globes the defense capsule and enemies are swarming about. You kill an enemy semi-far away and see he dropped an argon crystal. With vacuum your time outside globe is less to retrieve said argon crystal. Without vacuum your time outside is greater. For a seasoned player familiar with the game mechanics and with survivability mods this isn't a big deal. For a new player they have a chance to learn rolling reduces damage, learn how to move faster, or learn what warframe abilities to avoid damage. If the new player fails to learn this time he'll either read up or experiment with new mod configurations for next time. The main argument here is vacuum reduces risk of death thereby eliminating a chance for players to learn game mechanics/warframe abilities. The same thing can be said regarding energy pickups. If you're never in need of energy, why would you ever need to learn other ways to supply it?  We see this same scenario played out plenty with limbo players. Limbo provides invulnerability, or greatly reduces player risk, so several new players never learn which abilities to use when, or which abilities are disruptive to group play. It's only when someone is yelled at, or the previous Limbo player groups with a different Limbo, do they begin to understand his mechanics more. Opportunities for failure/reflection are essential for creating a more knowledgeable player. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

What I meant was that QoL features such as a loot pick-up radius is generally a standard feature as it doesn't detract from the player experience.

Generally games that do not have a radius are slower in combat, feature less NPCs, & overall are a slower/more paced out experience.

Using the logic from my previous example, despite being a QoL feature it can detract from the player experience.

All of this is not to say intrinsic vacuum is always a bad thing (maybe after so many hours playing it could kick in?), but how it impacts players of ALL levels should be assessed, not just experienced players or new players who don't know what's going on. Most new players I've met aren't able to play this game at a fast pace initially, that's their chance to learn all these basics.

I think you did a good job explaining your perspective. I think we may always disagree on this but I realize both of us are speaking anecdotally and can't possibly represent everyone with our opinions on this.

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I know sentinels are helpful other than being a loot vacuum but I decided to save myself the headache and just build Djinn with Awaken and Medi-Ray.

I honestly don't like the fact that we need a Mod just to collect loots in a fast paced, lootfest game.

Edited by ZesiMuerte
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10 hours ago, Graive said:

Djinn is one of several sentinels, it'd be nice to have more options wouldn't it? regarding un-equipping weapons, I do the same with Shade, but if your objective is to use a sentinel for more than a loot radar, fashion, or having fetch equipped (so using them to assist with attacking, spreading status, or dropping health orbs with the synth set) then you're pretty much SOL with the current options.

I would say if you are wanting to use a sentinel for it's damage output then you likely should be using one of the other types of companions.  Dogs, cats, and moas are good options able to be more robust than your hover bot.  Deathcube is an exception as it needs firepower to assist to trigger it's mods, but being as that is energy generation I am fine with that.

 

I mention Djinn not as the only option or the limited option, but instead as the option I use for deep runs in survival.  Methods needed to keep squishy frames alive at high levels keeps your sentinel alive as well, and armor/health tanking mods on a sentinel is normally enough to keep it alive through a fire wave or bombard hit.

 

If you get downed then your sentinel is likely to follow no matter how you could bolster it's defenses.  The damage that downed you is still coming in and if your companion is the only target your sentinel takes it instead.

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6 hours ago, SweetJackal said:

I would say if you are wanting to use a sentinel for it's damage output then you likely should be using one of the other types of companions.  Dogs, cats, and moas are good options able to be more robust than your hover bot.  Deathcube is an exception as it needs firepower to assist to trigger it's mods, but being as that is energy generation I am fine with that.

 

I mention Djinn not as the only option or the limited option, but instead as the option I use for deep runs in survival.  Methods needed to keep squishy frames alive at high levels keeps your sentinel alive as well, and armor/health tanking mods on a sentinel is normally enough to keep it alive through a fire wave or bombard hit.

 

If you get downed then your sentinel is likely to follow no matter how you could bolster it's defenses.  The damage that downed you is still coming in and if your companion is the only target your sentinel takes it instead.

Agreed, but I keep saying the synth set specifically for a reason. Synth mods can be equipped to any sentinel, and give an incentive for players to equip a weapon on their sentinel, while also providing something current other pets can't (health orbs drop when enemies are tagged by sentinel attacks). There's no incentive to actually cause damage with the sentinel, only to tag. The problem becomes clear when you go into higher content. Although the synth set can provide armor up to +900, there's no universally easy way to regain sentinel health (aside from health pizzas? haven't checked this tho). Consequently, even tho I've equipped a sentinel and warframe (squishy or tanky) that can survive an attack, my warframe can heal while my sentinel cannot. In medium-high level content aoe attacks are so frequent it's almost impossible to avoid any damage to your sentinel so having a method to replenish health to it without relying on equipping a specific warframe makes sense.

 

If any of you haven't tried the Synth set mods on a sentinel with a quick firing weapon, and health conversion on your warframe, give it a shot. It's a very good combo.

Edited by Graive

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4 hours ago, Graive said:

Agreed, but I keep saying the synth set specifically for a reason. Synth mods can be equipped to any sentinel, and give an incentive for players to equip a weapon on their sentinel, while also providing something current other pets can't (health orbs drop when enemies are tagged by sentinel attacks). There's no incentive to actually cause damage with the sentinel, only to tag. The problem becomes clear when you go into higher content. Although the synth set can provide armor up to +900, there's no universally easy way to regain sentinel health (aside from health pizzas? haven't checked this tho). Consequently, even tho I've equipped a sentinel and warframe (squishy or tanky) that can survive an attack, my warframe can heal while my sentinel cannot. In medium-high level content aoe attacks are so frequent it's almost impossible to avoid any damage to your sentinel so having a method to replenish health to it without relying on equipping a specific warframe makes sense.

 

If any of you haven't tried the Synth set mods on a sentinel with a quick firing weapon, and health conversion on your warframe, give it a shot. It's a very good combo.

I am pretty sure there is a mod that is Companion limited, so usable on everything, that gives health regen per second.  The health regen aura also affects companions, as do all warframe power heals and consumable drops.

 

I would argue that there are nearly more options to regen health for Sentinels than there are for warframes, except everyone just uses Life Strike.

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I mean we have primed regen which is a god send. Honestly they should just pull from our warframe's shields. Or something to make them bulkier like link shields or link health. MOAs have both the pet and the sentinel mods but that pet AI is just really really bad.

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16 hours ago, ZesiMuerte said:

I know sentinels are helpful other than being a loot vacuum but I decided to save myself the headache and just build Djinn with Awaken and Medi-Ray.

I honestly don't like the fact that we need a Mod just to collect loots in a fast paced, lootfest game.

But WE dont NEED it, you might, but its easy to get by without it

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6 hours ago, SweetJackal said:

I am pretty sure there is a mod that is Companion limited, so usable on everything, that gives health regen per second.  The health regen aura also affects companions, as do all warframe power heals and consumable drops.

 

I would argue that there are nearly more options to regen health for Sentinels than there are for warframes, except everyone just uses Life Strike.

The only mod that I'm aware of that regenerates health per second that works on all companions is the aura mod. My main argument is just wanting more options (specifically a mod that's a copy-paste of the Pack Leader mod, but I figured this view may be too narrow since I don't know how other ppl feel). Do warframe powers and consumables affect sentinels, yes; are these still limiting options, yes. I disagree about their being more health regen options for sentinels since warframes can also use weapon mods (like lifestrike) and arcanes, unlike sentinel mods.

Edited by Graive

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Derio23 said:

I mean we have primed regen which is a god send. Honestly they should just pull from our warframe's shields. Or something to make them bulkier like link shields or link health. MOAs have both the pet and the sentinel mods but that pet AI is just really really bad.

Agreed. Honestly, if there wasn't a limit on primed regen and it pulled from a warframe stat (like shields) I wouldn't have bothered making this post.

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@Graive
Health & Shield Restores do work on Sentinels.
So does Vazarin's Protective Dash. (This may have been patched. But I swear it worked a of 2 weeks ago. (Haven't used it much as I typically hide my frame when I go Operator form as nothing can kill my Operator.)
I use these all the time with my Helios.

I will have to agree to disagree with you on our previous discussion.
But it was nice to have a civil discussion though. No haymakers needed.
I've grown use to battling on these forums & collecting salt to infuse into my Primed Forum Mastery stat so I admit I was taken back by the interaction. =]

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