Relic system rework

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

This new relic system is terrible in every sense of the word. Iirc, this system was implemented to reduce the grind, yet all it has done is increase it. Now I have to:

farm for the relic

Farm for void traces to make it radiant (another problem, people don't want to waste relics but other people don't want us NOT running a relic).

Run ANOTHER Void mission except this time with the relic of choice to get a 10%(?) chance of getting the part I'm after. And only 1, regardless of what else is available. So not only do I only get 1 void part per run, I have to do MORE work for that one piece, which is likely not what I was after(why are forma on EVERY SINGLE RELIC? Not every literally, but at least 80%).

To put it bluntly, this system is utter garbage. And people seriously want me to sell them my inventory for 20p regardless of rarity.

How to change it, I don't know (Personally, I had no problem with the old system) but something needs to be done.

Edited December 19, 2018 by (PS4)whoistimjones

[AdunSaveMe]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

This new relic system is terrible in every sense of the word.

Off to a great start there.

Let's analyse the idea that it's worse. Previously you had to farm a key, and use the key. Sounds much better, right? Except it's not. Rewards from key missions had fixed drop rates, you could do nothing to boost or alter them in any way. And on top of that, every player got the same reward. Relics take slightly more effort, but every player with their own relic can roll a unique reward, which anybody in the party can choose.

Keys: faster, but less rewarding, one chance to roll single reward, for everyone.
Relics: slower, limited by fissure availability, but can be boosted, can have multiple relic pools in one mission, every relic has an individual roll, for anyone to choose. You effectively can get up to four individual rolls of the same loot pool from one mission, drastically increasing your chances of getting the item you want, and you have the choice of any item that anybody rolls. Also has the bonus of actual mission variety instead of doing Void missions all day, every day.

So yeah, it's slower, but it's still better in every other way by a mile. I'm glad keys are gone. I don't miss them. Relics are better.

Edited December 19, 2018 by AdunSaveMe

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

14 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Off to a great start there.

Let's analyse the idea that it's worse. Previously you had to farm a key, and use the key. Sounds much better, right? Except it's not. Rewards from key missions had fixed drop rates, you could do nothing to boost or alter them in any way. And on top of that, every player got the same reward. Relics take slightly more effort, but every player with their own relic can roll a unique reward, which anybody in the party can choose.

Keys: faster, but less rewarding, one chance to roll single reward, for everyone.
Relics: slower, limited by fissure availability, but can be boosted, can have multiple relic pools in one mission, every relic has an individual roll, for anyone to choose. You effectively can get up to four individual rolls of the same loot pool from one mission, drastically increasing your chances of getting the item you want, and you have the choice of any item that anybody rolls. Also has the bonus of actual mission variety instead of doing Void missions all day, every day.

So yeah, it's slower, but it's still better in every other way by a mile. glad keys are gone. I don't miss them. Relics are better.

Actually, you got as many rewards as you want if you stayed in the mission, except for Exterminate and the like. And chances are not increased because you roll 4 times, it's still 10%, just 4 times. And I just saw it by getting the same reward as another person while the other two got a different same reward.

Also, I'd rather have 4 pieces of trash over 1 piece of trash. Picking only one is also Terrible.

This system is terrible. You like it, fine. But I don't and I'm going to voice my opinion about it.

 

[DishSoap]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Off to a great start there.

Let's analyse the idea that it's worse. Previously you had to farm a key, and use the key. Sounds much better, right? Except it's not. Rewards from key missions had fixed drop rates, you could do nothing to boost or alter them in any way. And on top of that, every player got the same reward. Relics take slightly more effort, but every player with their own relic can roll a unique reward, which anybody in the party can choose.

Keys: faster, but less rewarding, one chance to roll single reward, for everyone.
Relics: slower, limited by fissure availability, but can be boosted, can have multiple relic pools in one mission, every relic has an individual roll, for anyone to choose. You effectively can get up to four individual rolls of the same loot pool from one mission, drastically increasing your chances of getting the item you want, and you have the choice of any item that anybody rolls. Also has the bonus of actual mission variety instead of doing Void missions all day, every day.

So yeah, it's slower, but it's still better in every other way by a mile. I'm glad keys are gone. I don't miss them. Relics are better.

Let's take a second and really think about this logically. Now every player got the same reward but, you're forgetting the fact that running a Void Tower only required one person to have a key. This means that people who farmed in groups with friends and clan mates had two to four times the number of runs. This means that every person in your group did have a "unique player reward" just that EVERYONE got them. This means you'd be getting double or quadruple the rewards you do in the current system. The other thing you bring up is Void Traces, so why couldn't Void Traces be applied to keys? Oh there's no good reason for that. Not only that but, you'd be getting again double to quadruple the amount of them in the current system. Lastly Void Relic missions are all random meaning sometimes you don't even have access to your relic of choice and have to wait for them to show up which is extremely worse than the Void Tower system.

So which system was really worse again?

Edited December 19, 2018 by DishSoap

[AdunSaveMe]

23 minutes ago, DishSoap said:

So which system was really worse again?

Still keys.

[DishSoap]

Just now, AdunSaveMe said:

Still keys.

So you're admitting to being biased and siding with DE's choice no matter the reality of the situation. But the fact of the matter is that relics are worse and only used to pad out Prime grinding by DE.

[GinKenshin]

4 minutes ago, DishSoap said:

So you're admitting to being biased and siding with DE's choice no matter the reality of the situation. But the fact of the matter is that relics are worse and only used to pad out Prime grinding by DE.

The whole point of these systems is to get primes. Relic system got you primes faster by far. Both systems have flaws of their own, but the relic system is the lesser of 2 evils and has a lot less negatives 

I remember when complaint threads were a regular in the forums about RNG and farming for months without getting the part you want, now you're lucky if you see 1 of these threads a month, memes and complaints about being rewarded cores and credits for playing 20-30min. Prices in trading have also been affected, before a new prime would sit at a very high price for months, now the prices drop in like a week. It's not specifically related but you can't deny it 

You can like what you like, this system is staying as is. It's easier to get primes and you're not doing 1 set of missions, seeing the same tileset, playing in the same map and fighting the same enemies anymore

I won't deny however that I do think it's harder for newbies to get into it, and the key system mechanics-disregarding RNG-was better for them, but I digress. 

[Blackthorn66]

53 minutes ago, DishSoap said:

So you're admitting to being biased and siding with DE's choice no matter the reality of the situation. But the fact of the matter is that relics are worse and only used to pad out Prime grinding by DE.

God this comment is ridiculous. 

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, DishSoap said:

But the fact of the matter is that relics are worse and only used to pad out Prime grinding by DE.

*Reads this and suddenly remembers a video, searches it on YouTube and rewatch it, laughs manically with a hint of despair as PTSD rolls in."

Suffer with me. (Read the description box, it's worth it.)

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, DishSoap said:

So which system was really worse again?

For flooding my inventory with super rare and exciting packs of gold Fusion Cores? Keys.

For minimal investment and maximizing the amount of garbage I could bilk other players for? Relics are worse at that.

Relics are better if you pretend the goal of the system is to allow you to aim, with a degree of certainty, at a Prime frame or weapon you want and have a path to obtain it. For generating a ton of trash to sell? Not the most efficient. The goal of the development of the game has never been to maximize the ability of players to shuffle Plat around and not buy it.

[DishSoap]

1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

The whole point of these systems is to get primes. Relic system got you primes faster by far. Both systems have flaws of their own, but the relic system is the lesser of 2 evils and has a lot less negatives 

I remember when complaint threads were a regular in the forums about RNG and farming for months without getting the part you want, now you're lucky if you see 1 of these threads a month, memes and complaints about being rewarded cores and credits for playing 20-30min. Prices in trading have also been affected, before a new prime would sit at a very high price for months, now the prices drop in like a week. It's not specifically related but you can't deny it 

You can like what you like, this system is staying as is. It's easier to get primes and you're not doing 1 set of missions, seeing the same tileset, playing in the same map and fighting the same enemies anymore

I won't deny however that I do think it's harder for newbies to get into it, and the key system mechanics-disregarding RNG-was better for them, but I digress. 

 

30 minutes ago, Blackthorn66 said:

God this comment is ridiculous. 

 

13 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

*Reads this and suddenly remembers a video, searches it on YouTube and rewatch it, laughs manically with a hint of despair as PTSD rolls in."

Suffer with me. (Read the description box, it's worth it.)

I like how you all ignore the previous post where I address that Void Traces could be added to Void Key with the same or better result than Void Relics. Bravo.

Edited December 19, 2018 by DishSoap

[peterc3]

1 minute ago, DishSoap said:

I like how you all ignore the previous post where I address that void traces could be added to Void Key with the same or better result of void relics. Bravo.

You want to return to the old system, only make it even easier to get better Prime parts. Better idea: DE just lets us hand in Relics and give us Prime parts for it. None of that pesky game playing and resource gathering.

[DishSoap]

1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

You want to return to the old system, only make it even easier to get better Prime parts. Better idea: DE just lets us hand in Relics and give us Prime parts for it. None of that pesky game playing and resource gathering.

I'm just stating that you're delusional if you think Void Relic system is better for getting gear than the Void Tower system. When in actuality it's only Void Traces that are responsible for that and everything else is bloat.

[(PSN)whoistimjones]

1 hour ago, GinKenshin said:

The whole point of these systems is to get primes. Relic system got you primes faster by far. Both systems have flaws of their own, but the relic system is the lesser of 2 evils and has a lot less negatives 

I remember when complaint threads were a regular in the forums about RNG and farming for months without getting the part you want, now you're lucky if you see 1 of these threads a month, memes and complaints about being rewarded cores and credits for playing 20-30min. Prices in trading have also been affected, before a new prime would sit at a very high price for months, now the prices drop in like a week. It's not specifically related but you can't deny it 

You can like what you like, this system is staying as is. It's easier to get primes and you're not doing 1 set of missions, seeing the same tileset, playing in the same map and fighting the same enemies anymore

I won't deny however that I do think it's harder for newbies to get into it, and the key system mechanics-disregarding RNG-was better for them, but I digress. 

I beg to differ. Literally farmed since patch for the Mesa systems.Barely got 3 relics and not a one in my groups had a system.

[NekroArts]

28 minutes ago, DishSoap said:

I like how you all ignore the previous post where I address that Void Traces could be added to Void Key with the same or better result than Void Relics. Bravo.

Do better, a simple 'apply it here with the same effect' isn't going to cut it. Remove the unnecessary junk otherwise that change in percentage means nothing. Present me with possible percentage changes that both convinces me that it's fair to those farming it yet isn't too easy that players get it too fast. Here's a reference:

Source

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, DishSoap said:

I'm just stating that you're delusional if you think Void Relic system is better for getting gear than the Void Tower system. When in actuality it's only Void Traces that are responsible for that and everything else is bloat.

Just any gear? You might have a point. Getting the thing I want to build and use myself? Relics are 173.6% better for that. Traces are irrelevant to the comparison.

[Eterud]

relics farm can be a pain. (although made easy now with void capture missions dropping them)

However void traces a problem? really? My only problem is to choose what relics to radiant now. (I maxed out my void traces from 0 to 1050 yesterday 3 times by simply farming relics.

[GinKenshin]

5 hours ago, DishSoap said:

I'm just stating that you're delusional if you think Void Relic system is better for getting gear than the Void Tower system. When in actuality it's only Void Traces that are responsible for that and everything else is bloat.

you're asking for the best part of both systems, this will never happen 

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

I beg to differ. Literally farmed since patch for the Mesa systems.Barely got 3 relics and not a one in my groups had a system.

I mean, I got all her rare/uncommon parts in the first relic I did, while the common one, ironically, took me 3 tries. it's still better than keys 

[Tsukinoki]

11 hours ago, (PS4)whoistimjones said:

Actually, you got as many rewards as you want if you stayed in the mission, except for Exterminate and the like. And chances are not increased because you roll 4 times, it's still 10%, just 4 times. And I just saw it by getting the same reward as another person while the other two got a different same reward.

Statistically the chances are increased because you rolled it 4 times.
Rolling for a radiant alone is a 10% chance to get the rare item.
Rolling for a radiant in a group of 4 is a total of 34% chance to get the rare item.

Maybe you should learn a little something about statistics here which is what they were referring to when they said groups have increased odds of getting the item, because statistically they do.

10 hours ago, DishSoap said:

Let's take a second and really think about this logically. Now every player got the same reward but, you're forgetting the fact that running a Void Tower only required one person to have a key. This means that people who farmed in groups with friends and clan mates had two to four times the number of runs. This means that every person in your group did have a "unique player reward" just that EVERYONE got them. This means you'd be getting double or quadruple the rewards you do in the current system. The other thing you bring up is Void Traces, so why couldn't Void Traces be applied to keys? Oh there's no good reason for that. Not only that but, you'd be getting again double to quadruple the amount of them in the current system. Lastly Void Relic missions are all random meaning sometimes you don't even have access to your relic of choice and have to wait for them to show up which is extremely worse than the Void Tower system.

So which system was really worse again?

The key system was worse.
By far.

Remember how many junk and trash items were crammed in T3/T4 Survival Rot C?  Where you could go 40-60 minutes and not get one prime part?  Instead ending with a bunch of resources and cores?
Oh yeah, 20 minutes of survival, or worse 20 waves of defense, with absolutely zero prime parts to show for it is so much better than relics where that simply doesn't happen. /s

And even if you got a prime part you maybe had a 2-5% chance of the part you wanted...with no way to influence the odds and crammed in with a bunch of other trash parts that you had absolutely no use for.

10 hours ago, DishSoap said:

But the fact of the matter is that relics are worse and only used to pad out Prime grinding by DE.

Lets take a look at this because this is factually wrong.

Lets have a rare item that you want, farming with radiant relics so a 10% drop chance, ok.  And lets do it solo.  Basically near worst case scenario for farming a specific rare part.
And lets go with survival missions for a regular time (even though capture/exterminate could possibly go faster).
You take 5 minutes to get a chance at the item you want.
If you're very unlucky this will take 44 attempts (for a 99% chance of getting the rare item), or 220 minutes, with the expected number of tries being 11, or 55 minutes.

What about the item locked away in Rot C?
Well lets give it a 5% drop chance because its one of the rarer ones.
You take 20 minutes to get one chance at the item you want.
If you're very unlucky this will take 90 attempts (for a 99% chance of getting the rare item), or 1800 minutes, with the expected number of tries being 20, or 400 minutes.

And this is pretty much worst case.
The relic system can be much better in a squad (which is more likely) so lets look at at that?
Again same setup but with a radiant run of 4 players with the same relic.
You take 5 minutes to get a chance at the item you want.
If you're very unlucky this will take 44 relics, or 11 runs, for 55 minutes.  The expected number of runs is 3, for a total of 12 relics spent, for a total of 15 minutes.

The void key doesn't change at all.

So please tell me?  How is the void key better?  You get the items faster, and a lot faster and without a ton of resources or cores as trash rewards.  Even if you get the rare reward in the expected number of tries from a key you're still taking nearly twice as long as someone doing it solo and having horrible luck in the current system.

And even if you take into account farming void traces you'll still come off slightly ahead, or barely even, if you do it solo, while in a group you're still going to be spending much less time farming for the specific part you want.
And please don't say "But you didn't have to farm for keys!" as that is completely untrue.  Plenty of key farming existed and was more annoying than relic farming...especially some of the T4 keys which only dropped from 1 location on the map and which was so full of T3 keys it was rare to get a T4 key even as a rot c reward.  And remember; Not every reward was shoved into an endless mission so there was still a good chance it was 1 key for 1 reward in the end.
And even the ones that were for endless missions it was 1, maybe 2, rarely 3 chances at the reward you wanted per key...so at best you used 1/3 the number of relics as you do currently, usually 1/2 to the same amount.  So the number of required keys isn't much different from the number of relics.

Those numbers only look worse if the item was locked behind a defense mission...

EDIT:
Lets look at absolute worst case relics.  All intact still after the rare part, so a 2% drop chance.
For a 99% chance of getting the item you're looking at 230 relics, or 1150 minutes to get it.  Which is still better than the 99% chance from Rot C survival...the average number of runs is 52 for 260 minutes, again faster than the average number of tries from Rot C survival as well.
So even at the absolutely worst case you'll still get the item you want faster than the key method....

In a party it looks better, with 4 people running intact relics.
For a 99% chance of getting the item you're looking at 58 relics, or 290 minutes, for the expected case you're looking at 13 runs for 65 minutes spent.
Again much better than solo and much, much better than the key system.

So please enlighten me: How does the relic system "pad out" the grind when it makes it faster?  Even at the absolute worst case?

8 hours ago, DishSoap said:

I'm just stating that you're delusional if you think Void Relic system is better for getting gear than the Void Tower system. When in actuality it's only Void Traces that are responsible for that and everything else is bloat.

It's not just the void traces though, and the edit above proves that even without void traces being a thing the new system is faster, both for worst case and for average case.
Its the fact that things are no longer locked behind Rot C survival/defense and can instead drop at any rotation.

And how could you possibly shoe-horn in the void traces into keys?  There are simply too many rewards at each rotation for the percentages to be shuffled around on...
Add onto that that now you're forced to sit in the same mission 20+ minutes for one attempt at the reward you want and its far worse than relics are.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Tsukinoki

[Zelmen]

No one going to add EOS gives radiant relics which you can run for traces or w/e else and use traces to upgrade the ones you only have a few of from else where.

[Tsukinoki]

1 minute ago, Zelmeno said:

No one going to add EOS gives radiant relics which you can run for traces or w/e else and use traces to upgrade the ones you only have a few of from else where.

Good point.
Both ESO and the Orb Heists give Radiant relics which further cuts down the farm time for the prime part you want.

Further just running endless fissures give you upgraded relics as extra rewards, ontop of the common relic rewards from endless missions, so you can be farming prime parts while getting more relics back than you spent...

[(PSN)Bluelegend2010]

D.E..... The Relic Lith M3 only provides first option. I had try all M3 relics fully refine and all it gives out is the Paris p. There most be a glitch._.._. Please look into this issue.