DE can we have the Ninja sword now?

[MasterBurik]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Probably just the sass. Oh and the request being for them to make something that didn't actually exist, and so has no real standard form. 

The Ninjato exists, there just isn't historical evidence that it did before the mid-20th century. Its "standard form" is described as being a straight, single-edge Japanese short sword, with a square shaped guard.

Edited January 10, 2019 by MasterBurik

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh you left out rhino's and patched together bits for carnival sideshows like the Fiji mermaid. 

But they're examples of how people actually believed in the existence of certain things, and that existed in multiple cross referenced text back to medieval times. I could also point out the rather ubiquitous defenses taught against vampires, as evidence of their existence, but I don't think that you will believe that they exist.  

 

Can't say that I didn't warn you though. 

Ignoring 90% of the post - particularly the bits about how these texts are cross-analysed for accuracy. Classy.

Whatever. Believe your man who's clearly not done his job properly, and/or is cherry-picking the evidence to try make it big by making a controversial claim that doesn't even stand up to the scrutiny that even a layman like me can do, but that he knows most won't do.

I clearly can't convince you, and probably couldn't convince you that figures like Henry the 8th, William the Conqueror or Aristotle existed either if you got it in your head they didn't, since they have a similar amount of evidence for their existence. Just texts, oral histories, and some artwork.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Ignoring 90% of the post - particularly the bits about how these texts are cross-analysed for accuracy. Classy.

Whatever. Believe your man who's clearly not done his job properly, and/or is cherry-picking the evidence to try make it big by making a controversial claim that doesn't even stand up to the scrutiny that even a layman like me can do, but that he knows most won't do.

I clearly can't convince you, and probably couldn't convince you that figures like Henry the 8th, William the Conqueror or Aristotle existed either if you got it in your head they didn't, since they have a similar amount of evidence for their existence. Just texts, oral histories, and some artwork.

Oh those dudes are probably all made up anyway. Now king Arthur on the other hand, has a bunch of much better texts oral histories and artwork doesn't he? 

And you can find so many references to him especially in places that he's supposed connected to, which all generally corroborate one another. 

 

Now, do you really want to try and prove the negative existence of a legendary figure, with historical context spread over multiple interrelated sources, which were at one point probably considered to be an actual historical case? If so, then what happens when someone points out that the inconsistencies may be caused by the amalgamation of unrelated individuals or groups who ended up being merged into one romantic fantasy? 

 

We both already know that the Holywood ninjas are off the table. We both know that historically there may have been individuals groups who are associated with the mythos but may not have been until people started retelling and conflating. We both realise that the hallmark of a secret group, is the lack of actual information that is truly known about them, and this can easily lead to multiple groups of shadowy figures being linked in the minds of others. 

How many books have been written about groups like the freemasons? How many generally corroborate what's in others? And how many of them are primarily made up cruft? 

Now am I saying that ninja couldn't have existed? No. But I'm saying that assuming that all of the ninja were all ninja (if you get it), might not be valid. So which are the ninja and which aren't? I figure that you get that. 

 

[SneakyErvin]

I'm trying hard to find the viking part of the swords you posted.

European swords? Yes very likely. Scandinavian/Germanic/Saxon? Nope not so much. And the blue marbled skin is a Gladius, which comes nowhere near from where the norsemen did. They are similar in style, but the Gladius is from the most southern parts of europe and from a very different time.

edit: The ones crossed on the back that you refer to as viking swords are waaaaay too long. A norse sword would be half or two thirds the length of those. They'd also have shorter hilts and a large knob at the end of it similar to the gladius.

Edited January 11, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh those dudes are probably all made up anyway. Now king Arthur on the other hand, has a bunch of much better texts oral histories and artwork doesn't he? 

And you can find so many references to him especially in places that he's supposed connected to, which all generally corroborate one another. 

I'm going to treat this as rhetorical.

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Now, do you really want to try and prove the negative existence of a legendary figure, with historical context spread over multiple interrelated sources, which were at one point probably considered to be an actual historical case? If so, then what happens when someone points out that the inconsistencies may be caused by the amalgamation of unrelated individuals or groups who ended up being merged into one romantic fantasy? 

I see what the problem is here. You're coming at the Ninja with the idea that the collections of texts and stories form a mythos, when they don't. Let me explain, using King Arthur as an example of a mythos.

The earliest recorded mention of a 'King Arthur' is from the mid-900's, from the Annales Cambriae, which pretty much just mentioned when he supposedly had a significant battle and when he supposedly 'fell' - it doesn't even specify death. The time period suggested was the 500's, which roughly matches up with the period of time during the age where the Angles and Saxons were in Britain, following the fall of Rome. So, there is at least some evidence that he... may have existed, although an equal amount of evidence exists that he did not. So, whilst we can't DISPROVE he existed, the detail of the texts are extremely limited.  The next known mention is from the writings of Geoffery of Monmouth, which claims Brutus was the first king of England and that Arthur went to war with the Roman Empire in 50 B.C.-ish. Claims that that contradict evidence dated back earlier, and so can safely be discounted. This, alongside the presence of Magic, as this was where Merlin was connected to Arthur. As all future versions also feature Merlin, magic, and other things we're pretty damn certain aren't real, all future versions can also be discounted. So, the closest thing to a historical Arthurian text is a claim that he existed, and two battles. That's what makes Arthur a mythos, not history - any details that are true are muddled with details that clearly aren't and there's no contemporary texts to confirm or deny this.

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

We both already know that the Holywood ninjas are off the table. We both know that historically there may have been individuals groups who are associated with the mythos but may not have been until people started retelling and conflating. We both realise that the hallmark of a secret group, is the lack of actual information that is truly known about them, and this can easily lead to multiple groups of shadowy figures being linked in the minds of others. 

Now here's where the Ninja documents are shown to be as valid as we can determine. See, these line up with each other and with other books and were all from that time period. For example, the Ninpiden was supposedly passed down through the Hattori family of the and got shared with the Ieyasu family where copies remained safe (due to their connection to the shogun's own family) to the modern day - factors which line up with evidence such as the Taiheiki that a figure called Hattori Hanzo, who led the Iga Ninja was a part of Tokugawa Ieyasu's retinue, where he would be in a prime position to share this text with his lord as a measure of defence from assassination. Further corroborating this is that the three currently existing Ninja Manuals all date to the same time period - the Sengoku Jidai period or the late1400's to the early 1600's - and all seem to have come from different provinces of the country, but all share details of Ninjustu. Fairly specific details, such as diet, sleeping patterns and named tools of the trade which can be recreated today. Examples: Ninja did not consume Meat because the protein leads to more farting, and the smell and sound could reveal a Ninja's presence. They slept on their left side to shield as much of their heart as possible whilst sleeping, and an example of an item is the famous Torinoko Smoke Bomb, which would be used to startle, distract and momentarily conceal a Ninja during an escape to confuse pursuers. Whilst folk stories do add confusion to the mix, there are far too many details from separate parts of the country at the same time. That's why they're not a mythos - their existence is considered historical, even if individual feats and stories are not, such as using Kites to sneak over walls, where there is no evidence aside from folk tales.

You seem to have the misconception that the Ninja were a single, organised entity, like a samurai court or indeed the freemasons, or a relatively small, tight-knit group like a village or two. They weren't. They were a loose collection of individual clans roughly divided by province, connected by a series of martial arts collectively called Ninjutsu, which as martial arts in a country with a cultural tendency towards refinement and precision, was something that was fairly consistent from group to group. They really were multiple groups of shadowy figures - it's just that there's sufficient evidence to suggest that they were linked through something more than just the minds of others. It's like how not all people who know Karate work together and are part of the same organisation - it's just people who know Karate. The term Ninja referred to individuals who practiced Ninjutsu, who'd often gather in groups and villages, usually in the mountains, practicing and offering these techniques as a service for survival in a harsh country full of war and bandits. If a clan managed to get in good with a local Daimyo lord or influential Samurai and be able to offer these skills in return for security, then so much the better.

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Now am I saying that ninja couldn't have existed? No. But I'm saying that assuming that all of the ninja were all ninja (if you get it), might not be valid. So which are the ninja and which aren't? I figure that you get that. 

That's fair. There are debates even to this day about what individual stories are fact and which are fiction. For example, the famous walk-on-water shoes. There's evidence Ninja had some kind of weight distribution footwear, but as for their purpose nobody know. The best we can gather is that they wouldn't work on water, and would work better on muddy areas. But... we don't know whether these were infiltration tools for bypassing marshland moats or simply used for utility in their farming life. Several isolated groups grew rice which requires a lot of water after all - a flood from a paddy field problem could lead to very muddy and dangerous terrain in the village. Another example is their supposed ability to disappear in a puff of smoke - that's likely from the Torinoko I mentioned earlier. Ninja would use them to cover escapes, and over time this got exaggerated (most likely with some encouragement from the Ninja) into a supernatural ability.

We do know that Ninja existed, and we know a lot of details, but there's even more folk stories that make knowing exactly what happened impossible. But there's a lot more evidence for Ninja than King Arthur, the Freemasons, supernatural creatures, just due to a wealth of detailed evidence.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Loza03

[RuFi0]

26 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm trying hard to find the viking part of the swords you posted.

European swords? Yes very likely. Scandinavian/Germanic/Saxon? Nope not so much. And the blue marbled skin is a Gladius, which comes nowhere near from where the norsemen did. They are similar in style, but the Gladius is from the most southern parts of europe and from a very different time.

edit: The ones crossed on the back that you refer to as viking swords are waaaaay too long. A norse sword would be half or two thirds the length of those. They'd also have shorter hilts and a large knob at the end of it similar to the gladius.

Excellent analysis. Quick question, would you want the Ninjato in the game of Warframe? Why or why not?

 

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

Excellent analysis on the historical accuracy of whether or not Ninjas existed. Quick question, would you want the Ninjato and Chokuto in the game of Warframe? Why or why not? Let me know!

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, RuFi0 said:

Excellent analysis on the historical accuracy of whether or not Ninjas existed. Quick question, would you want the Ninjato and Chokuto in the game of Warframe? Why or why not? Let me know!

Probably not the Ninjato because, as I said earlier before this whole discussion swamped it, I feel like it's kind of unnecessary. It'd almost certainly be a part of the Nikana sub-group due to sharing the aesthetic very closely, which is pretty well represented for a side-group of melees. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not particularly rooting for it as I would be a more unique weapon type. It'd have to have reasons for me to use it other than just being a Ninjato.

Chokuto, kind of the same thing. Maybe a bit less so since as it has more Chinese influences it could get away as a single sword instead of a Nikana. Single swords are a bit of a freer type than the Nikana and don't currently have a really good weapon like the Nikana Prime or Galatine Prime. Best's either Broken War or Krohkur, which are good but not like the Nikana is good. That means there's a gameplay opening for it, and I think it'd be cool to give it the aesthetics of a Chokuto, since I like Japanese weapon designs.

In short, I'm not particularly attached to either weapon type, so they wouldn't really attract me just by virtue of being that weapon type. They'd have to have a reason to exist in gameplay for me to really root for them.

[RuFi0]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Probably not the Ninjato because, as I said earlier before this whole discussion swamped it, I feel like it's kind of unnecessary. It'd almost certainly be a part of the Nikana sub-group due to sharing the aesthetic very closely, which is pretty well represented for a side-group of melees. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'm not particularly rooting for it as I would be a more unique weapon type. It'd have to have reasons for me to use it other than just being a Ninjato.

Chokuto, kind of the same thing. Maybe a bit less so since as it has more Chinese influences it could get away as a single sword instead of a Nikana. Single swords are a bit of a freer type than the Nikana and don't currently have a really good weapon like the Nikana Prime or Galatine Prime. Best's either Broken War or Krohkur, which are good but not like the Nikana is good. That means there's a gameplay opening for it, and I think it'd be cool to give it the aesthetics of a Chokuto, since I like Japanese weapon designs.

In short, I'm not particularly attached to either weapon type, so they wouldn't really attract me just by virtue of being that weapon type. They'd have to have a reason to exist in gameplay for me to really root for them.

I feel you on that. I think that's why I'd like to have it as a dual sword skin honestly, because I love the weapon so much that I'd like to equip it with whatever my favorite dual-swords are at the time, stat-wise. That way if it's a poo poo weapon I won't be down a melee just because I like looking at it on my back or using it for Captura. But yeah, for an actual weapon I would love a Chokuto single-sword, they are just beaut!

Edit: Maybe the Chokuto can be a gift from the Arbiters of Hexis who worship the tenno and rock similar archaic weapons?

Edited January 11, 2019 by RuFi0

[SneakyErvin]

31 minutes ago, RuFi0 said:

Excellent analysis. Quick question, would you want the Ninjato in the game of Warframe? Why or why not?

Either or would work for me. I dont use many single or dual style weapons in the game. I'm a big polearm junkie.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

4 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Probably just the sass. Oh and the request being for them to make something that didn't actually exist, and so has no real standard form. 

Woah woah. I really don't think a weapon being real or not should exclude it from being added.

Not in a game where we have The Arca Plasmor, The Mire, The Gram, & all 3 of the Glass Weapons (like a Glass Great Hammer).

If we count out a weapon because it wasn't real or its authenticity is in question then Warframe loses a good 80% of its weapons.

Moving back onto the Ninjato. There is no historical proof the blade existed before the 20th century, which was when it was first documented.

Obviously, this means that the Ninjato cannot be directly tied or confirmed to have ever been used by Ninjas. But it floated around as a modified/altered Wakizashi or a supposedly broken katana.

I can't help but laugh though. Given the reputation of historical Ninjas and their secrecy, and even now the Ninjato is in question. Perhaps they managed to keep them hidden perhaps Hollywood did make them up. I don't care really.

I honestly had forgotten about the weapon until this thread. My thought was "Holy S#&$. That is one of the most iconic Ninja weapons. How could I forget it?" Just like Shurikens.

So I say...why fight it? Let's try to get legitimate Warframe themed Ninjato in the game.

Of course I feel they should be Dual Swords & NOT Nikana. Only because I feel there are not nearly enough good or Iconic Dual Swords.

And I feel that with Melee 3.0 around the corner, Nikana will probably merge or join the Heavy Blade-like weapons.

[-NightmareMoon-]

ask for a true ninja sword to be added, show a chinese sword....

At least do some research before posting something this dump, also the dragon nikana and nikana prime serve pretty well for that purpose.

[MasterBurik]

42 minutes ago, -NightmareMoon- said:

ask for a true ninja sword to be added, show a chinese sword....

[IMAGE]

At least do some research before posting something this dump, also the dragon nikana and nikana prime serve pretty well for that purpose.

From the OP:

On 2019-01-09 at 4:12 PM, RuFi0 said:

... please give us the Ninjato for 3.0. Ninjato and the Chinese Wushu pictured above - I'd skip rent to buy these. I'm serious. Please. Please?

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This, alongside the presence of Magic, as this was where Merlin was connected to Arthur. As all future versions also feature Merlin, magic, and other things we're pretty damn certain aren't real, all future versions can also be discounted. 

Eh? Since we are discounting magic, will we also be able to discount people who are supposed to be able to fly, become invisible, practice shapeshifting, or have the ability to "split" into multiple bodies, summon animals, and control the five classical elements? Because with the exception of "a power of prophecy" and "stargazing", the Ninja seem to have managed all of those. 

Also you don't seem to realise that for hundreds of years Merlin and Arthur were definitely very real historical figures. Some thousand years later we can scoff at him. Give the Ninja a few hundred more and see how you feel about them. 😉

 

And again, you seem to be mixing several different sets of ninjas. In the 1400s you had what you would probably think of today as garden variety agitators and spies (probably not terribly hard in a stratified society where people tend to mind their place). Later your Hitori Hanzo might have been a reasonably trained fighting man worthy of being a bodyguard and possibly an advisor, but was he particularly good at not being known to exist? One suspects not since you keep calling that name. Some of the military manuals suggest that Sun Tzu may have been a ninja since they supposedly cribbed off of his notes. (Unless that makes me a ninja because I should have a copy somewhere around here, should probably find it and dust it off if that's the case.) 

 

Again you seem to be thinking that they lived up to the stories. I figure that you were probably far more correct when you described them as hard scrabble peasants who were willing to sell their service, and for those who were any good, they would have been rewarded by being trained into something more useful. That's knowledge they could possibly pass on. Given a few hundred years of constant feudalism, and you might have a truly useful corpus of knowledge that's attributed to you, but really is just a collection of dribs and drabs. 

Caltrops for example are common all over the world. And grappling hooks too. But put them together in a pouch and they suddenly become tools of the Ninja. (Even though anyone associated with the samurai would probably have the same grappling hook.) 

Unfortunately you'd also have a truly vast reputation amongst the uneducated masses, and also possibly your enemies. That's gotten mixed up with nonsense like people boasting about how they can personally shapeshift and do magic. So you know that you are dealing with Merlin all over again. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Woah woah. I really don't think a weapon being real or not should exclude it from being added.

How about not being real so it is kind of a tricky thing to model something after it, when folks will be upset because it looks nothing like the kitana they thought it should look like, because they've been basing their imagination of it off of comics and cartoons not known for accuracy of details? 

And remember the description of it suggests that you should use it like an oversized sewing needle to poke something to death with, rather than make the exaggerated slashing strikes that people expect based on their sources. 

 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

How about not being real so it is kind of a tricky thing to model something after it, when folks will be upset because it looks nothing like the kitana they thought it should look like, because they've been basing their imagination of it off of comics and cartoons not known for accuracy of details? 

And remember the description of it suggests that you should use it like an oversized sewing needle to poke something to death with, rather than make the exaggerated slashing strikes that people expect based on their sources. 

It isn't hard to model after. It's a Straight Blade with a very defined edge. Real Sword or Made up for Hollywood doesn't matter, there are real life replica Ninjato Blades. So Models can be used easily. Even then DE sculpts everything in the game digitally so really it would not take them long to sculpt this weapon. The adornments, finer details, and stat allocation will be what takes more time, in addition to rendering, assets, and then scaling/fitting them to the current Warframe Models.
All DE really has to do is keep the stylized aspects of it. The Skana, Cronus, & Zaw Strikes are proof of illogical design 

On the topic of use...
One-Handed Katanas also are not meant to be used for slashing, let alone any form of blade to blade exchange. They were meant to be thrusted into an opponent just like a Ninjato. So to count out the Ninjato would mean we need to count out Nikana weapon type.
(Only Two-Handed grip Katanas were ideal/used for cutting/slashing.)
The original point of Katana's was for the blade to be thrusted, where the slim yet somewhat (I mean somewhat) flimsy blade would slip into the scale mail penetrate the body of the enemy, with more ruthless samurai/ninja often breaking their blades off after a successful wounding so the blade would be trapped inside the armor ensuring the enemy had no chance of surviving.
The Wazashi of old were made to be shorter than Katana's or were once Katana that had broken, Ninja would keep them in Katana sheaths in order to trick Samurai, as when a duel began the Ninja could draw the shorter blade quicker than the Samurai usually could draw theirs. The downside was that the Ninja now had a shorter blade to thrust into the Samurai.

To be quite honest, the majority of weapons in Warframe are based around Hollywood's over-dramatic interpretations of weapons.
Eastern themed weapons being the most overzealous. Nikana, Shuriken, Kunai, & Nunchaku being the most embellished. Warframe's Sai shockingly were more accurate than I expected truth be told, but I'm now veering off topic again.

(Yes, I am a Sword enthusiast, even took Sword Fighting when I was younger. Fond memories there.)

[Loza03]

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Eh? Since we are discounting magic, will we also be able to discount people who are supposed to be able to fly, become invisible, practice shapeshifting, or have the ability to "split" into multiple bodies, summon animals, and control the five classical elements? Because with the exception of "a power of prophecy" and "stargazing", the Ninja seem to have managed all of those. 

Also you don't seem to realise that for hundreds of years Merlin and Arthur were definitely very real historical figures. Some thousand years later we can scoff at him. Give the Ninja a few hundred more and see how you feel about them. 😉

You seem unable to separate the ideas of Ninja as a fantastic force of mystic power and Ninja as cunning infiltrators with a lot of technology and martial skills that mimicked magical abilities. Let me go through some of these feats and tell you the real world versions of them.

Ahem: Flight's debunked - there's some rumours of them using kites to fly in to locations they planned to infiltrate, but there's no evidence they ever did. That was probably added on later. Invisibility is a mix of redirection and abusing human psychological quirks about where people search for other people, specifically that people don't look down when turning corners or passing small cover and rarely look up at all. Hiding by tucking up small behind a corner or getting as high up as they could would enable Ninja to hide even if there's no practical cover around - seemingly turning invisible. Alternately, they could hide in crowds just by taking off their tell-tale hoods and putting on the hats they carried with them at all times. Poof, vanished into a crowd, a pursuer would walk right past them - invisible ninja. Shapeshifting was just a bit of forethought, covering bales of hey or logs in a Ninja outfit and positioning it along an escape route near a hiding place to distract the enemy making it look like they turned into something else, making it seem like they'd turned into a decoy in much the same way that Ninja stories say they do. Splitting into multiple bodies was when multiple Ninja were in the same location, they'd wear identical clothing and move in a co-ordinated fashion (there's a lot of planning involved in Ninja missions), so if they were spotted, it would be less clear how many Ninja were present. Several copies of seemingly the same person would be misinterpreted as one person splitting themselves into many - especially if there were conflicting reports. Summoning of animals is an exaggeration of them using and manipulating the behaviour of animals in the environment, which they'd also have scouted out beforehand. And the control of elements is a folk misunderstanding of them utilising pre-made chemicals and bombs, which would produce fire and smoke. Prophecy was probably derived from the fact that they'd know almost everything about a location, the guard patrol routes etc. before taking a mission, enabling them to accurately predict their movements before they happened from memory - or just them simply having collected a lot of information about plans and troop movements that overconfident generals believed nobody knew. When suddenly their enemies that were known to employ Ninja advisors could respond in advance, it's not impossible for folk tales to spring up that Ninja had foresight, when they really just had more information than everyone else.

Tell me, if the ninja were all just folk tales and legend... would we have such details on how they achieved such seemingly supernatural feats told of in folk tales and legend? Ninja weren't supernatural - people thought they were.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And again, you seem to be mixing several different sets of ninjas. In the 1400s you had what you would probably think of today as garden variety agitators and spies (probably not terribly hard in a stratified society where people tend to mind their place). Later your Hitori Hanzo might have been a reasonably trained fighting man worthy of being a bodyguard and possibly an advisor, but was he particularly good at not being known to exist? One suspects not since you keep calling that name. Some of the military manuals suggest that Sun Tzu may have been a ninja since they supposedly cribbed off of his notes. (Unless that makes me a ninja because I should have a copy somewhere around here, should probably find it and dust it off if that's the case.) 

And you seem to be thinking of the 'Ninja' as a specific well-organised set of people when, again, it was just the term for people who practiced Ninjutsu - most of whom were common folk who would give their services as garden variety agitators and spies. I'm not saying they weren't Plus, Hattori Hanzo of course wouldn't have gone on Missions since he was a Ninja only in the sense that he knew the arts. He sent other ninja from the clan who were in service to his lord. Sun Tzu, yup that checks out as there is a quite a bit of evidence that Ninjutsu was derived from Chinese roots. Clever application of stealth tactics and redirection to make a group of normal people appear to be a group of supernatural feats. I can't stress this enough - people thought all their feats were supernatural in origin, even though we have evidence they weren't.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again you seem to be thinking that they lived up to the stories. I figure that you were probably far more correct when you described them as hard scrabble peasants who were willing to sell their service, and for those who were any good, they would have been rewarded by being trained into something more useful. That's knowledge they could possibly pass on. Given a few hundred years of constant feudalism, and you might have a truly useful corpus of knowledge that's attributed to you, but really is just a collection of dribs and drabs. 

Yeup, hit the nail on the head. Not the 'lived up to the stories' part - I just happen to know how they'd have achieved the feats of many of those stories, feats that would have seemed supernatural if you didn't have insider knowledge at the time since the people watching didn't know about all these tricks, just the effects of them. So, they started getting attributed to supernatural causes. They literally were just a wide-spread group of peasants in the mountains where various monks had passed down martial arts knowledge to them and they gradually developed useful skills for the warring period, that they offered to nearby authority figures in return for protection and security. Skills that garnered them quite the reputation. 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Unfortunately you'd also have a truly vast reputation amongst the uneducated masses, and also possibly your enemies. That's gotten mixed up with nonsense like people boasting about how they can personally shapeshift and do magic. So you know that you are dealing with Merlin all over again. 

A reputation for being a force that has a bunch of magic powers, when they in fact were not. Sounds good for business to me as an agent of espionage if everyone's scared of you. After all, as a guard, who are you more likely to chase after with gusto and full confidence of your abilities? A peasant caught trying to sneak into your castle or what's as far as you know a mystical warrior with superpowers? I'd wager that most would be very happy to chase the former, but be quite hesitant to chase the latter - in turn giving the Ninja more time to spring their tricks and traps, further reinforcing in the mind of their nonthewiser pursuer that they had indeed seen a mystical being. So, many Ninja groups would have wanted to cultivate such a reputation. The more people scared of them, the easier their job became.

 

Tl;DR Ninja weren't supernatural. They were connected by a knowledge of a collection of practices and martial arts which in total were called Ninjutsu which was spread to many different groups in many different places. These practices and martial arts would, to an uninformed eye of both the common folk and the guards of any location they were infiltrating, seem magical. This meant that people were afraid of them and were less likely to kick the hornets nest for purposes of self-preservation. Ninja cultivated and took full advantage of this. Thus, the Ninja as fantastical superbeings and common folk with a great deal of knowledge and skill co-existed. The former was fantasy, the latter was history.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

It's a Straight Blade with a very defined edge. Real Sword or Made up for Hollywood doesn't matter, there are real life replica Ninjato Blades. So Models can be used easily.

Length tip to guard? Guard to handle tip of the handle? Does it have a pommel? Width of blade? Distance edge to spine? 

And how pray tell does one make a real life replica of something that might never have existed? Do you see? 

And we still have a problem with the way that it is used possibly not matching whatever imaginary style people have in their heads based on their comics and movies. 

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

One-Handed Katanas also are not meant to be used for slashing, let alone any form of blade to blade exchange. They were meant to be thrusted into an opponent just like a Ninjato.

He sure stabbed the frick out of that baseball with the point of that thing that was held in a one handed grip. Or... You know... 

And don't get me wrong, we both understand that some of the limitations that apply to us wouldn't be significant to a warframe, your grip strength wouldn't be a limitation for example. But we also both know that function still follows form, because that's the basis for your argument against some of the blades in the game today as far as I can tell. 

 

As an aside, a part of the blades breaking might have had more to do with the materials used more than the viciousness of the wielder. 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

You seem unable to separate the ideas of Ninja as a fantastic force of mystic power and Ninja as cunning infiltrators with a lot of technology and martial skills that mimicked magical abilities. Let me go through some of these feats and tell you the real world versions of them. 

-snip-

Oh I dunno, I can counter all of that the same way you did "it said that they used magic and everyone knows magic isn't real so they weren't real". 

Or shall I give you the real world way to do astrology, which are pretty much the only remaining skills that Merlin supposedly had that you haven't just explained? OK.... Ahem... Much like your prophesy was an advanced skill we call "guessing" which is where we apply common sense and occasionally a bit of uncommon knowledge, Astrology is pointing at stars and using gullibility to make people think that you know stuff they don't.

So, suddenly we (mostly you) have explained away all of the previous objections to what was definitely considered an actual historical figure for hundreds of years and made him far more likely to be real. Or we haven't, and that kind of applies to the majority of what we have about ninja as well. 

 

Also while I agree that your suggestions are far more realistic, I will point out that there are records of people involved in the Ninja mythos that directly claimed to be able to shapeshift into animals. So.... Magic it is. 😉

 

Regarding the flight and kites, I suspect that with a touch of luck, they could have also used those kites to drop payloads in enemy camps, a la kite fishing. 

56 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Tell me, if the ninja were all just folk tales and legend... would we have such details on how they achieved such seemingly supernatural feats told of in folk tales and legend? Ninja weren't supernatural - people thought they were.

I respond with asking you, if ninja were such a secretive group, good at hiding and misdirection, how do we explain how much we supposedly know about them? 

Is it possible that relatively skilled people were either described as ninjas and decided to go with it because of the added air of mystery and standing it would have given them? Or that perhaps people can call themselves/their enemies ninja without any actual truth to it? And in either case, or both, would that not grow the legend of the Ninja? 

56 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And you seem to be thinking of the 'Ninja' as a specific well-organised set of people when, again, it was just the term for people who practiced Ninjutsu - most of whom were common folk who would give their services as garden variety agitators and spies. 

Know what the best part of having a super secret fighting style is? Anyone can claim to be in the know, to be the true practitioners of the art. And ain't nobody can really disprove it. Toss in confirmation bias, and all of the unsuccessful "fakes" disappear in the memory of the few successful "real ones". 

 

So tell me, how many of those groups who practiced the style, were actually practicing some other style? 

56 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Yeup, hit the nail on the head. Not the 'lived up to the stories' part - I just happen to know how they'd have achieved the feats of many of those stories, feats that would have seemed supernatural if you didn't have insider knowledge at the time since the people watching didn't know about all these tricks, just the effects of them.

No mate, we're guessing how they did it, based on what makes sense to us, in hindsight. For all we know they actually knew magical mantras that gave them supernatural powers. We can easily posit and possibly prove that things could have been done in a particular mundane way, but it's not actually possible for us to disprove the possibility that they used what folks would call magic.

Understand that despite all of the times I've tossed out the "or maybe they were actually magic" type of argument, I don't believe it actually exists, I am just mostly trying to lightheartedly show that alternatives that we haven't thought of yet, still may exist because we don't actually know what they were doing. I mean, take the shiruken, do we actually know how they were used by the ninja, if they were used at all? 

 

 

Lastly, there's a dude playing that fortnite game or whatever calling himself Ninja. Does that make him a real ninja? What if he secretly practices a martial art that we don't know about that he calls ninjutsu? Would that do the trick? If not, why? 

[RuFi0]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

 

I would ask if you could kindly take this back and fourth to a PM. This discussion has no relevance to the thread, you've branched off into a personal debate that doesn't need to be posted here.

[Loza03]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh I dunno, I can counter all of that the same way you did "it said that they used magic and everyone knows magic isn't real so they weren't real". 

I answer this later and I'm a broken enough record as is.  Long story short - we have texts telling us everything I told you. The texts didn't write 'it's magic', the texts wrote down the techniques and the scared samurai and common folk wrote down 'it's magic'. That's why we don't use what the samurai and common folk wrote when we're discussing how ninja operated.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I respond with asking you, if ninja were such a secretive group, good at hiding and misdirection, how do we explain how much we supposedly know about them? 

Is it possible that relatively skilled people were either described as ninjas and decided to go with it because of the added air of mystery and standing it would have given them? Or that perhaps people can call themselves/their enemies ninja without any actual truth to it? And in either case, or both, would that not grow the legend of the Ninja? 

One: Because they weren't a single group. How many times do I have to keep saying this?

Two: Yes! The people who displayed these skills were described as ninja because the word ninja refers to people who have these skills. A ninja is someone who practices ninjutsu. It's not like being a shaolin monk where there's additional qualifiers. Anybody can call themselves a ninja, but if they don't possess these skills, they aren't ninja - just like how anybody can call themselves a swordsman, but if they can't use a sword, then they aren't. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Three: as I said earlier, we know so much about them because we have texts written by them detailing all the techniques I described for the first part, which have survived as books and texts do. For example the Ninpiden has a known history - it was in the possession of the Tokugawa family, who hired the Iga Ninja - led by the original holder of the text, the Hattori family. Therefore, it is not a great historical stretch to say that Hattori Hanzo gave Tokugawa Ieyasu a copy of the Ninpiden so that he may be properly informed and from there properly protected from other Ninja hired by other daimyo who might try to assassinate or spy on him - this book was kept quite safe through the ages due to being in the possession of the reigning family of the Edo period. So it makes sense that we'd have it today - and thus we'd have all the knowledge about the Ninja contained within.

And, in case you want to play the "But how do we know Hattori Hanzo was a Ninja?" card again, other, independently written, historical texts claim he was the leader of the Iga-Ryu clans - or at least the ones that Ieyasu shielded from Oda Nobunaga in his well-documented campaign against various ninja groups. So, historical texts say this guy's a ninja, and we have a book that was, as far as we know, was written by his family in that time period with detailed accounts of how Ninja operated, accounts that offer reasonable, reproduceable methods and designs for tools used in the methods. Any reasonable person can then conclude from that evidence that the contents of that book were how Ninja operated, or at least how that group did.  The same methods are used for other historical groups - just like we know how Spartans behaved, and what their culture was like, or how knights fought - from historical manual detailing these techniques. We look at what we can determine they wrote and we've cross-referenced it with what other historical texts said about them, and built up our knowledge form there. 

16 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Know what the best part of having a super secret fighting style is? Anyone can claim to be in the know, to be the true practitioners of the art. And ain't nobody can really disprove it. Toss in confirmation bias, and all of the unsuccessful "fakes" disappear in the memory of the few successful "real ones". 

 

So tell me, how many of those groups who practiced the style, were actually practicing some other style? 

The aforementioned detailed texts I discuss above. People wrote down the arts. And Ninjutsu wasn't a fighting art - it wasn't even one style. It was a collection of individual techniques for the purposes of infiltration and espionage. So we can even build up individual knowledge about individual arts and then add them to the collective list of 'Ninjutsu'.

And, whilst we don't know how many groups practiced the arts, we know that at least three kept texts (hence the three different texts I pointed out way back when) for the purposes of teaching others, since having it in writing is safer than having it just be memorised. When you also consider that it wasn't a single style - again, it was a collection of arts - it is likely that there would a great deal of variation, with individual groups or even people specialising in different areas. Much like Kenjutsu swordplay, which is one martial art but has many different individual styles focusing on individual teachings. Different samurai knew different variations of Kenjutsu. But they were still all swordsmen because they could all use a sword. In the same way, anybody who could infiltrate a location, gather information and escape without detection were all called Ninja because they all practiced arts that came under the moniker of 'Ninjutsu' - and there were text written down by the schools of Ninjutsu, which were run by peasants in villages. Kunoichi, for example, were completely different to how we typically imagine a ninja, instead practicing deep cover and infiltrating areas as serving girls, wives or even concubines and staying there for several years, passing on vital information whenever it came up. This is still classified as Ninjutsu however - because it fits the definition. 

25 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No mate, we're guessing how they did it, based on what makes sense to us, in hindsight. For all we know they actually knew magical mantras that gave them supernatural powers. We can easily posit and possibly prove that things could have been done in a particular mundane way, but it's not actually possible for us to disprove the possibility that they used what folks would call magic.

Again, those pesky texts written by people that have historical evidence that they were ninja and that have historical backgrounds as being in the possession of historical figures that have good reason to possess them saying that's how its done. No-ones poisting that's how they did it. They wrote down how they did it, and we still have those texts today - so we still know how they did it. 

42 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Lastly, there's a dude playing that fortnite game or whatever calling himself Ninja. Does that make him a real ninja? What if he secretly practices a martial art that we don't know about that he calls ninjutsu? Would that do the trick? If not, why? 

If he could prove that he does practice the diverse arts that come under the moniker of ninjutsu, then yes, that would qualify him as a Ninja. Otherwise, no he isn't. Several of the people today who claim to be ninja can do things such as brew poisons from common plants, perform disabling martial arts moves for the purposes of escape and can hide from sight in an everyday environment. These are techniques that come under the qualifications for ninjutsu - what we would call espionage - so they're Ninja. 

So, yes. We don't know with 100% certainty everything about the ninja. I never claimed we could. We have indeed lost a lot of knowledge about them. But we do know with enough certainty for the purposes of history that they did indeed exist, and we're very lucky to know as much as we do.

[Marvelous_A]

Ninjato largely overlaps with the current Nikanas. Chinese sword or jian could be a legit class though coz they are double-edged swords and I think all existing swords are single-edged.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, RuFi0 said:

I would ask if you could kindly take this back and fourth to a PM. This discussion has no relevance to the thread, you've branched off into a personal debate that doesn't need to be posted here.

Apologies.

I didn't intend for this debate to get like this. I've PM'd a copy of my response to Guzmantt. Hopefully the thread won't continue to be derailed. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 Length tip to guard? Guard to handle tip of the handle? Does it have a pommel? Width of blade? Distance edge to spine? 

And how pray tell does one make a real life replica of something that might never have existed? Do you see? 

And we still have a problem with the way that it is used possibly not matching whatever imaginary style people have in their heads based on their comics and movies. 

A Ninjato would be modeled after a Wakizashi except the guard would be square, the blade straight & the tip cut at a sharp angle.

Ninjato are shaped after the Wakizashi so the design isn't hard.

I already touched the usage topic.

If we want to get into usage being why we can't have weapons then 90% of Warframes weapons need to be removed as they would not perform close to how they perform in the game.

The Baza would NOT be a Smooth shot it'd bounce all over the place, Tigris & Hek would kick up so hard the Tenno would snap their spine, etc.

Nikana's would break after 4 or 6 firm cuts, if they didn't shatter across the armor of said enemy.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

He sure stabbed the frick out of that baseball with the point of that thing that was held in a one handed grip. Or... You know... 

Don't be a jerk. You know damn well that just because the Tang (The Handle) was designed for a one handed grip does not mean the weapon can only be used for thrusting.

Your argument is that DE can't add a weapon because:

A. It wasn't proven to be used by Ninjas.

B. It factually wouldn't make sense for Warframes to wield because the weapon isn't designed for that usage.

So. I wanted to state that factually the "proper" use a Katana was originally for thrusting & sometimes a single well timed cut.

That video was beautiful, however, that was Iaijutsu. Which is an art of counter attack & surprise attack. You use the force of your opponent against themselves, or cut down an unsuspecting foe.

That wasn't a direct attack, you have to watch carefully as he draws outwards and let's the force of the ball apply the actual force. He however must hold the blade firm & true.

A perfect example of why Hollywood & Gaming embellishes Iaijutsu as if its standard Katana protocol.

I digress.

For Bulletpoint A. Ninjas didn't use guns, so there goes nearly all of Warframe's weapons.

For B. If DE made every weapon perform factually and not how folks envision them then folks would complain how anti-dramatic & unexciting they are.

As far as gameplay is concerned, Ninjato would be cool Dual Swords. Just like how Nikanas are used as a regular sword to cut down hordes of heavily armored enemies.

Edited January 11, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029
Formatting. My phone hates these forums.

[MasterBurik]

2 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Ninjato largely overlaps with the current Nikanas. Chinese sword or jian could be a legit class though coz they are double-edged swords and I think all existing swords are single-edged.

Dark Sword

Plus a Deluxe Skin:

And a Tennogen Skin:

Edited January 11, 2019 by MasterBurik
Tennogen skin is indeed in-game

[RuFi0]

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

And a Tennogen Skin (listed as being accepted, but not in-game atm):

Oh it's in, I snagged that one right quick

 

I think a Dual Chokuto skin would finally let me finish my Ninja Turtles theme: 

a

 

Poor Leo has to use Sabers 😞 he can't even rock the shell because the clipping from the guard is too atrocious 😞

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Ninjato would be modeled after a Wakizashi except the guard would be square, the blade straight & the tip cut at a sharp angle.

So anywhere between 1 and 2 feet in length roughly? Kind of makes me wonder why not just have a Wakizashi and be done with since that's the model you want them to use and let the tennogen futz with the details. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

If we want to get into usage being why we can't have weapons then 90% of Warframes weapons need to be removed as they would not perform close to how they perform in the game.

The Baza would NOT be a Smooth shot it'd bounce all over the place, Tigris & Hek would kick up so hard the Tenno would snap their spine, etc.

Nikana's would break after 4 or 6 firm cuts, if they didn't shatter across the armor of said enemy.

Nice but I already responded to that. And please remember that the Tenno use amps, not weapons designed for use by the warframes any more than you are likely to pick up the turret from a passing tank and use it to take potshots at the enemy. If you had "skin made of sword steel" then your spine would probably be able to handle it. Likewise the materials used will play a part in whether your sword shatters or flexes. And that gazillion fold steel is probably a part of the problem. The ulfberht swords shouldn't have had that issue, but I wouldn't think that they would keep as sharp an edge. Materials, you see? Now fast forward to the Orokin reign with self healing, adaptive drones and what wondrous materials might they have been able to conjure? 

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Don't be a jerk. You know damn well that just because the Tang (The Handle) was designed for a one handed grip does not mean the weapon can only be used for thrusting.

I'm so glad that we agree. And yes it was a nice video, I think that he's the same person who did the one slashing through a pea. Insanely impressive. 

Now regarding how the force was generated for that neat little trick to work, I'd say that we have warframes that can tap their foot and break time itself so I do expect that they might be able to do things that you and I wouldn't have any hope of doing. But I think that we're in agreement, just because a weapon can be used in a certain way, doesn't make it efficient at doing that. If we do get what we both realise is essentially a good sword to poke someone with, then we should be using it that way. And yes I feel the same way about some of the other pig stickers we have, and especially so about the kunai, but that's another kettle of fish. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Your argument is that DE can't add a weapon because:

A. It wasn't proven to be used by Ninjas.

B. It factually wouldn't make sense for Warframes to wield because the weapon isn't designed for that usage.

Not quite. My argument is that the weapon itself, as a ninja weapon, may not have existed at all, and the sources cited by the OP, weren't particularly accurate with one oriental design being swapped for another whenever it was cooler. Also the style of use is very different as we both realise. So we're likely to have the same person who has demanded that they get "X" complain that they wanted it to be different like how it is in "some other thing" only to have people point out that what they actually wanted is actually "Z". 

You'll notice that people asked repeatedly if they were sure that they know what they want, and pointed out multiple times that their source material was using totally different weapons to what was being asked for. The response was generally along the lines of "lol I don't care I just want a Ninjato like the ninjas used kek" as I recall. You can see why those two points do make the request problematic? Offer the OP a 12 inch blade that looks like a snapped kitchen knife and we'd probably be back here in record time requesting a "real Ninjato, but not like the description of the Ninjato, make it look like a katana instead like it does in the movies where katanas are being called ninjatos". 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

For Bulletpoint A. Ninjas didn't use guns, so there goes nearly all of Warframe's weapons.

Yeah you might want to double check on that. Just saying. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

For B. If DE made every weapon perform factually and not how folks envision them then folks would complain how anti-dramatic & unexciting they are.

Possibly, but then again we already get a bit of that, don't we? 

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

As far as gameplay is concerned, Ninjato would be cool Dual Swords. Just like how Nikanas are used as a regular sword to cut down hordes of heavily armored enemies.

Dunno, about how cool it would be, I mainly stick with staff type. I figure that the litmus test will only happen when folks who're asking for it get a chance to see it in action. Especially the ones who are asking for it but seem to be expecting something else. 

[RuFi0]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not quite. My argument is that the weapon itself, as a ninja weapon, may not have existed at all, and the sources cited by the OP, weren't particularly accurate with one oriental design being swapped for another whenever it was cooler. Also the style of use is very different as we both realise. So we're likely to have the same person who has demanded that they get "X" complain that they wanted it to be different like how it is in "some other thing" only to have people point out that what they actually wanted is actually "Z". 

You'll notice that people asked repeatedly if they were sure that they know what they want, and pointed out multiple times that their source material was using totally different weapons to what was being asked for. The response was generally along the lines of "lol I don't care I just want a Ninjato like the ninjas used kek" as I recall. You can see why those two points do make the request problematic? Offer the OP a 12 inch blade that looks like a snapped kitchen knife and we'd probably be back here in record time requesting a "real Ninjato, but not like the description of the Ninjato, make it look like a katana instead like it does in the movies where katanas are being called ninjatos". 

Yeah you might want to double check on that. Just saying. 

Possibly, but then again we already get a bit of that, don't we? 

 

Dunno, about how cool it would be, I mainly stick with staff type. I figure that the litmus test will only happen when folks who're asking for it get a chance to see it in action. Especially the ones who are asking for it but seem to be expecting something else. 

Dude, stop putting words in my mouth. I never used incorrect source material, I added in ANOTHER weapon of Chinese origin at the end of my post and even explained why I posted the picture. None of my source material was incorrect. I had to simplify my answer to "I just want the Ninjato in the game of Warframe" because you repeatedly kept going off topic about things that had no right to be in the thread, like historical accuracy and what it was used for, and other irrelevant things. You're absolutely incorrect and I don't care if you want to make things up to try and skew this (absolutely irrelevant) debate towards your own bias. You're wrong.

Tenno are 3D animations, the DESIGN of the weapon doesn't matter because it is fictional, whether or not it was used in real life doesn't matter, that has no relevance to it being in the video game -- there would be no problems modelling something that is literally iconic in pop culture and has thousands of examples in video games.

All of the people trying to hold onto the fact that I posted a Jian have already been addressed and the reasons for me posting that are valid, as was the explanation. I don't care if you want to completely ignore that in favor of being argumentative, that whole point you made has been debunked.

Stop back-pedalling to these two points, they have been addressed and debunked and you have no valid reason to bring them up just to try and win an argument.