A More Durable Ember

[(XBOX)Zero The Crow]

I may not be the first with this but my concern with Ember is more that she needs survivability. What has the comunity's reaction to a Phoenix type revival mechanic been?

On one side the concept of Ember becoming one of our hard to kill frames may be the fastest way to adjust her overall ranking among frames. On the other it means she shifts from a wannabe dps to a mixed dps with a deeper investment on not staying dead.

To discuss the mechanic I'm not certain how it should fit into her build. The most similar effect we have is Oberon's Pheonix Renewal and the key difference is Embers revival should come with an AOE of damage rather than reviving your team. Execution and cost of this ability is the question to adress. Should it be a new augment for let's say World on Fire? (Temp name: From the Ashes) The cost could drain the remainder of your energy and basically casts Fire Blast with a cool animation of reviving.

To my fellow ember players how do you feel about this idea? What cool down time should I have if any? Will this impact the high level playability of Ember enough or does her damage still need more work?

[Birdframe_Prime]

Well, there's three key points that aren't in your favour here;

1. Wukong did it.

2. It kind of doesn't theme with her, even when you put in the 'phoenix' in there.

3. DE have specifically said, in response to questions about why Ember's Overheat function was removed, that they don't want her to have actual Damage Reduction abilities.

But, you're not wrong about the fact that her survivability is something that's seriously limiting her.

So, how about something else? Something indirect... something that mitigates damage but only with her active casting?

How about, if you throw down Fireball, enemies can't shoot through the napalm ball it leaves behind? Like a hybrid between Volt's Shield and Zephyr's Turbulence, or even like Mag's Magnetise, where it creates a zone that means as long as it's between you and the enemy, they can't shoot you.

There are a ton of changes that would work for Ember, but this one might be something that DE could drop in using existing functions and minimal bug-fixes, and give Ember that reason to keep lobbing Fireballs in between casts of Accelerant.

[Trusnam]

Hmm, maybe if it could replace her passive to "when she's down, killing [insert number] of enemies will revive her" or something like Inaros's passive. 

idk, but the idea is fun.

[Birdframe_Prime]

43 minutes ago, Trusnam said:

or something like Inaros's passive

After a long time on the Forums, I've found that it's best to not intentionally duplicate other frames' functions. So if the direct comparison is to make her have a passive like Inaros, where killing enemies revives you, then it might need a new iteration.

[MickThejaguar]

"aCtUaLlY sHe HaS sUrViVaBiLtY iF yOu SpAm HeR cC"

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Mesa has Shattershield and Gara has Splinterstorm so I don't see why they cant give her Overheat back at this point.

[Arcira]

How about an additional effect for her passive: 50% of damage received is converted to heat damage.

Might be a good synergy with her current passive and someone would actually use Flame Repellent.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Arcira

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

"aCtUaLlY sHe HaS sUrViVaBiLtY iF yOu SpAm HeR cC"

Just by-the-way somebody discovered that sarcasm actually reads better as bold italics ^^ try this:

"Actually she has survivability if you spam her CC"

5 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Mesa has Shattershield and Gara has Splinterstorm so I don't see why they cant give her Overheat back at this point.

I don't either, but they did actually state it live on stream that they don't want Ember to have base survivability casts, they took Overheat away because they just... didn't want her to have it. Don't think it's right for her thematically or something.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

"Actually she has survivability if you spam her CC"

I don't either, but they did actually state it live on stream that they don't want Ember to have base survivability casts, they took Overheat away because they just... didn't want her to have it. Don't think it's right for her thematically or something.

Yeah I know that but that doesn't mean it makes sense to the players. rigth now Ember is a terrible DPS frame with no scaling damage nor decent survival. They pretty much removed her World on fire builds with the nerfs and it is still used to speed running low level missions even after the nerf meant to change that, While at the same time ruining the WoF CC builds. So much so I would rate ember in the top 5 worst frames! If they aren't going to give her overheat back they need to give her scaling damage and un-nerf her WoF so she see's some use again.

[Hellmaker2004]

The so supposedly "nerf" To WoF only made it so instead of activating and forgeting about the ability you now have to disable and re-activate it every 6 second, doing so will allow you to still have it behave exactly as before. People crying about the WoF "nerf" forget it takes 6 seconds before Overheat starts and even then it takes 9.5 seconds for it to reach the maxed out 100% value = 100% More base damage, 50% Radius reduction and double energy drain. This mean it aint the end of the world if you let it overheat a little.

But they also forget that the average explosion per second is only 3.25 (2 - 4.5 Explosions) while deactivating it and reactivating it will give you the guaranteed 5 explosions.
Sure it aint a set it and forget it skill anymore, it requires some work from the player but i would hardly call it a nerf, especialy not with all the other things she got added as well.
 

• Fireball
       Can now be held and charged for additional damage. Upon impact, Fireball will leave behind a Napalm-like flame that damages enemies.
   
• Fire Blast
       Will now add heat damage to weapons that fire through it (for allies).
  
  Both of those came at the same time as the WoF "nerf"
  
  Now we can argue that the fireball is to slow to charge, i agree but it is still there and it is a one-handed action so you can still shoot and reload guns while throwing or charging a fireball. The problem here is how heat work with damage resistance and how multiple heat procs are counterproductive with eachother.
  
  And Fire Blast ....... it would be good but lets be honest, the values and the multiplier make it insane in theory, but was it to much to ask to have the flame circle to be higher as a quality of life change. Right now it is a chore to do a small jump and cast it at the right time to benefit from it.

[PortalsFTW]

I agree that ember needs more survivability but I would prefer damage reduction/mitigation over insta revives which can be hard to balance. DE's idea that ember shouldnt have damage reduction is ridiculous as she needs to get up close to enemies. Also, her damage output drops significantly at higher levels, so as it is she is a glass cannon without a cannon. Why leave the glass part of her identity if she cant output damage?

[Elementalos]

On 2019-01-20 at 3:33 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I don't either, but they did actually state it live on stream that they don't want Ember to have base survivability casts, they took Overheat away because they just... didn't want her to have it. Don't think it's right for her thematically or something.

I feel like glass cannons don't really work very well in Warframe considering the inescapable nature of a whole bunch of the game's damage. You can dodge explosions and play keepaway with enemies who have dangerous close range attacks but a lot of damage is coming from bullets being fired from all direction that you aren't going to reasonably avoid without barriers or some other form of area denial which aren't quite her things. Especially since she's encouraged to set herself on fire to improve her performance. She could at least use some sort of light self healing if she's going to be constantly taking chip damage with no other way to deal with it.

If they really want her to be a glass cannon though I hope they review Heat as an element and status soon, because the weak damage profile of the element and the inferior quality of its proc really holds Ember back... I mean there are holes in her fundamental kit too but those certainly don't help.

[Arcira]

On 2019-01-20 at 11:14 PM, Hellmaker2004 said:

The so supposedly "nerf" To WoF only made it so instead of activating and forgeting about the ability you now have to disable and re-activate it every 6 second, doing so will allow you to still have it behave exactly as before. People crying about the WoF "nerf" forget it takes 6 seconds before Overheat starts and even then it takes 9.5 seconds for it to reach the maxed out 100% value = 100% More base damage, 50% Radius reduction and double energy drain. This mean it aint the end of the world if you let it overheat a little.

But they also forget that the average explosion per second is only 3.25 (2 - 4.5 Explosions) while deactivating it and reactivating it will give you the guaranteed 5 explosions.
Sure it aint a set it and forget it skill anymore, it requires some work from the player but i would hardly call it a nerf, especialy not with all the other things she got added as well.

Maybe it was set and forget but it was comfortable. Casting WoF every 6sec feels just clunky and does nothing to improve her gameplay. It´s equally annoying as rolling interrupt your reload attempt. Not everything is meant to be spamed and this obsession with "interaction" can be harming for the flow of a game.

Also the damage increase is negligible at best and a 50% reduction of a circle equals 75% reduction of the area. I think alot of people who defend the rework arn´t aware of this either. Recasting WoF consumes energy and the dps of Fireball is lowered when using the charging mechanic.

As much as I try. I fail to see anything positive in those changes. Give Ember something valuable especially for scaling content and stop overloading her kit with useless stuff that´s all I want.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Arcira

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Elementalos said:

I feel like glass cannons don't really work very well in Warframe considering the inescapable nature of a whole bunch of the game's damage.

You're not exactly wrong about that, to be fair. The thing about having frames that are 'glass' anything is that they can, and do, survive if they have the right CC or non-tanking mitigation casts.

Loki, for example, needs nothing but his 2 and you playing the game right to stay alive. While Nova, right up until we were told about the damage mitigation built into her 1, was run exclusively as a glass cannon, the original modding system of having Abilities as Mods meant that players literally took out her 1 and 3 in order to get a better build for her, with her 4 and her 2 making sure that she was never out of place.

So it kind of depends, see.

1 hour ago, Elementalos said:

Especially since she's encouraged to set herself on fire to improve her performance.

Problem is (gee whiz... sorry, old joke) that she's not even encouraged for that either, because her 4 is a Drain and prevents the energy regen. We'll have to see what we can do about that...

1 hour ago, Elementalos said:

If they really want her to be a glass cannon though I hope they review Heat as an element and status soon, because the weak damage profile of the element and the inferior quality of its proc really holds Ember back... I mean there are holes in her fundamental kit too but those certainly don't help.

Well to that I say... you don't really have to rework Heat, because that's not a buff to Ember, that's a buff across the board to every single frame. What you really want is to change the way that Ember interacts with Heat.

Shameless self-promotion, but I've been pasting this concept into a few threads around here, tell me what you think:

Spoiler

Passive: Overheat. Ember gains Power Strength for each enemy set on fire up to a cap of 35%, this effect drains over time with a delay of a few seconds before the drain begins. While at capacity, extra enemies set on fire will restore a small portion of Energy.

1. Fireball. Cast a fireball at your enemies. On impact it turns into a deadly guardian flame that persists for a long duration, inflicting damage and a high status chance to ignite foes that only increases the closer to the flame they are. If enemies attempt to shoot through the flame, the intense heat will redirect their attacks, leaving Ember and her allies unharmed.

2. Fire Blast. Immolate the foes before you with a deadly heat blast, staggers or knocks down enemies depending on how close they are to Ember. Deals multiplied damage to any enemy already on fire and will extend and intensify the flames. (Resets old proc with new, stronger one that lasts longer, specific status effect for Ember.)

3. Accelerant. Radiate an aura that coats your foes in inflammable material, causing all instances of Heat damage to be more effective, while allies in range all gain additional Heat damage and bonus Status chance on all weapons. The ability can be refreshed at any time, and all enemies are staggered on cast for a minimum of four seconds (can be extended by modding).

4. World on Fire. On casting, Ember creates a massive aura that increases casting speed and reload speed for all in range. Any Heat damage inflicted within that area charges up Ember's attack, no matter the source, and after the charge period is done, let the flames begin. For a short duration, Ember is surrounded by an aura of such intense heat that the air itself explodes, and up to five enemies at a time within range are targeted for an intense blast of fire. Ability has same range as Accelerant for added potential. The damage ramp-up from World on Fire does not end with the initial window of casting/reload speed, it builds on top of itself as it continues to deal damage.

Now, why?

Because with this, Ember's interaction with Heat Status gets a direct upgrade. The idea is to throw down a Fireball and use it as an actual damage mitigation tool, while enemies that approach you are more and more likely to get a Status proc of Heat the closer they are to the flame (which is proportional, so if you put on a wide range, then max damage and max status chance range is wider too). Then you hit everything with the new Fire Blast, a cone-of-effect cast that deals high base damage, base of double damage (affected by Strength) to enemies on fire (and multiplied by Accelerant, too, don't forget that), and the ability also adds to the existing procs. Not just refreshing them, as new Heat procs do currently, the ability would add in all the new damage, and then extend the on-fire status by an actual Duration.

She no longer needs to have stun CC be her only way of staying alive, is one point to make. Yes stun CC is a functional part of her kit, but the improvement by giving her a conditional, non-self-buffing damage mitigation (since DE specifically did say that they did not want to give her actual, personal damage mitigation) that also applies to anyone in her team that wants to use it, like a Volt Shield... she'll survive absolutely fine through a heck of a lot of content, even able to throw a wide-range Fireball in front of an Objective in order to defend it too.

Accelerant switches to a Duration ability, as a simultaneous buff/debuff cast on her 3, no more having to cast and re-cast to get the debuff onto new enemies, and also taking the bonus Heat damage part from the current Fire Blast so that you're giving your allies access to the debuff even if they don't have your damage type. And then there's the recast, which (if you're building for that Duration on all four of her abilities) means you can pick and choose when to CC your enemies, not just stun and re-stun and re-stun.

And finally, a version of the previous World on Fire comes back, bigger and better and specifically Duration based, with a 10 second charge-up window to stop it being spammed like it used to be. You can't turn it on and forget it through a mission, like you used to, you have to actually build up the ability and then use it while you can. With the bonus from Accelerant and the potential damage you could charge up with the ability's absorbed damage? This could potentially one-shot enemies past Sortie levels. But only potentially, much like Magnetise, which is another existing ability that works off potential damage.

Ticks the box for Defense, CC, Offense in spades, and Support too. Plus all of the abilities either work together, or contribute to each other. And I haven't even gone into what the Augments would then do on top.

And let's not forget the self-buffing on top of self buffing. Setting a bunch of enemies on fire with her 1 and 2, and by the time you're done she has an extra 35% power strength from her passive (add on another 25% from Growing Power) then you cast Accelerant with your buffed Strength for multiplied damage on all of your attacks, and you maintain that by recasting throughout a mission. Then with the powered-up Accelerant in place, you're casting a powered-up World on Fire, which will charge from all the damage you're already dishing out, and then keep charging as it dishes out damage too.

I've had some good feedback on this one, do you think it could work?

[Elementalos]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well to that I say... you don't really have to rework Heat, because that's not a buff to Ember, that's a buff across the board to every single frame.

I mean that's fair, but being a heat focused Warframe the issues with Heat damage and Heat procs are still going to be inexorably tied to her. Plus having a DoT would be a natural day to reduce the frontload in her damage except the heat DoT's mechanics are really bad. 

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I've had some good feedback on this one, do you think it could work?

Indirect damage mitigation by creating barriers (as you describe in her 1) is a really good way to let her survive without just making her tankier like DE doesn't want. I like that.

This pitch also reduces the overlap between her skills which is a good thing too, having a bunch of different skills that are mostly just fire damage ends up diluting them, this iteration still definitely has her leaning heavy on the fire damage, but turning her 2 into her main nuke and making her 1 have defensive appeals makes them more distinct in a good way.

If I had one issue it's that you sort of have competing concepts with WoF. On the one hand you want to use the initial activation buff as an offensive tool in and of itself to throw fire and bullets around faster, on the other you want to activate it as soon as possible so you can let the damage build up as much as possible.

Do you envision it as an automatic activation after 10 seconds or a recast effect with a 10 second minimum? The former would alleviate the previously mentioned problem but also might make it clunky to use since you're planning around what enemy density is going to be like 10 seconds in the future.

Other than that I really like it, except that I think it might be too big of a set of changes, a lot of DE's reworks tend to be smaller tweaks.

[ganjou234]

Put the old OVERHEAT damage reduction (not scaling with power strength) when WOF is fully charged, while casting Accelerant  (before or during OVERHEAT) boosts (affected by power strength) OVERHEAT damage reduction.

WOF and Fireball should have Beam weapon mechanics added into them...

Change passive to Melting Point.

• Melting Point
  • Refreshing a heat proc (Ignite) permanently reduces armor of an enemy by 5%.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Glad you like it ^^

13 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Do you envision it as an automatic activation after 10 seconds or a recast effect with a 10 second minimum? The former would alleviate the previously mentioned problem but also might make it clunky to use since you're planning around what enemy density is going to be like 10 seconds in the future.

I put it in the same category as Harrow's 4, and also the same activation style (after 10 seconds, it will just switch to the WoF activation, the same as Harrow's invincibility ends and the Crit buff begins). You cannot guarantee enemy density 10 seconds after the casting point, but that's why the buff period is also supposed to be useful to you and your team as well, but in that uniquely Ember way that Accelerant did for (only) her previously.

As an example, if you're planning on running from one Mobile Defense objective to another you can cast it, pick up the lunchbox while your team is killing things, keep charging up with all your damage you can throw out, and then actually burn that path from A to B (or B to C) if you're fast enough, finishing up when you actually get there 30-40 seconds later. However, this wouldn't work so well on an Exterminate (where she was most commonly spammed before) because, as you said, you can't guarantee the density and it might be several tiles before you actually reach a large collection. It would still work, which is the most important part, but it wouldn't be as easy and brain-dead as the old version was.

Defenses and Interceptions would work well, as would a Capture even (since you can build that up while run-and-gunning after sighting the target, then use it as a pseudo-shield as you capture them). The difference in engagement with the ability is surprising when you think about it.

I mean, heck, when it comes down to it, any specifics would be gone over by the people making the change, so... concept is a concept ^^

Still, I'm glad that I can chalk up another good response to that concept, if I can get it noised about more, maybe somebody like Pablo will read it and then it'll give him inspiration for something based off it.

13 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Other than that I really like it, except that I think it might be too big of a set of changes, a lot of DE's reworks tend to be smaller tweaks.

Don't forget, in the past DE have completely changed up frames like Saryn, before this recent one, and even added in completely new abilities before. You can't really discount any potential changes, because they really could all happen... if the conditions are right... ^^