Ember Rework for Scaling Damage

[(XBOX)Khyron42 Prime]

Frost is the definitive defense frame. Shouldn't Ember be the definitive damage frame?

New Passive: Eternal Flame - Ember's Eternal Flame level increases for every heat status proc she inflicts. Each level adds increasing heat damage to all of Ember's attacks.

Abilities:

1) Firestorm: a channeled range-based cone of flame in front of Ember which procs heat and deals damage according to her Eternal Flame level. Energy-intensive but both adds to and benefits from Eternal Flame

2) Flaming Sword: Duration ability adding guaranteed heat proc and heat damage to all melee attacks. Used to build Eternal Flame.

3) Accelerant: Unchanged from current 2, but now more valuable due to overall higher ability damage output.

4) Immolate: Range-based. Expend 1/3 of available Eternal Flame levels to instantly deal massive damage to all enemies in range who are currently affected by heat status effect. Each enemy killed drops 1 energy orb.

 

The high-level goal is to bring Ember into the damage-dealing range of Nidus or Saryn while maintaining her status as an accessible early-game Warframe. By using scaling damage through building Eternal Flame, her damage can increase over time as she uses her abilities. The check on this increase is energy consumption - unlike Nidus (who gets refunded energy when using his 1) or Saryn (whose damage can increase without further casting), her abilities will consume notable amounts of energy. The limited uses available in the early game will create a small damage buff that persists even after her initially small energy pool is expended. Once her 4th ability is unlocked, she can trade some of her damage for more energy, allowing her to continue increasing her damage to deal with higher-level threats. 

This would provide an engaging, unique gameplay loop for Ember. In the same way that the definitive defensive abilities Snow Globe, Warding Halo, and Iron Skin all have mechanics that echo one another, so too would Saryn's Spores, Nidus's Mutation Stacks, and Ember's Eternal Flame all share a stacking-damage-over-time-and-use framework. She would require active play to keep inflicting heat procs on new enemies, just as Nidus must build stacks and Saryn must spread spores.

 

[xXRampantXx]

Ember's main issue is that heat damage is pretty bad (thanks to having few bonuses and a pretty lackluster proc).  Unless heat damage gets better I don't see any Ember rework making her effective past mid-level unless her powers are focused more towards utility like Mag's, which would be the complete opposite of what you (and I imagine most people) want.

I won't deny though, your rework looks a lot more fun to play than what we have now, though you'll have trouble convincing most current Ember mains to let go of their precious "World on Fire".

Edited January 28, 2019 by xXRampantXx

[peterc3]

New passive and 4 new abilities.

This isn't a rework, it's a new frame.

[Me.KayOh]

42 minutes ago, (XB1)Khyron42 Prime said:

Frost is the definitive defense frame. Shouldn't Ember be the definitive damage frame?

New Passive: Eternal Flame - Ember's Eternal Flame level increases for every heat status proc she inflicts. Each level adds increasing heat damage to all of Ember's attacks.

Abilities:

1) Firestorm: a channeled range-based cone of flame in front of Ember which procs heat and deals damage according to her Eternal Flame level. Energy-intensive but both adds to and benefits from Eternal Flame

2) Flaming Sword: Duration ability adding guaranteed heat proc and heat damage to all melee attacks. Used to build Eternal Flame.

3) Accelerant: Unchanged from current 2, but now more valuable due to overall higher ability damage output.

4) Immolate: Range-based. Expend 1/3 of available Eternal Flame levels to instantly deal massive damage to all enemies in range who are currently affected by heat status effect. Each enemy killed drops 1 energy orb.

 

The high-level goal is to bring Ember into the damage-dealing range of Nidus or Saryn while maintaining her status as an accessible early-game Warframe. By using scaling damage through building Eternal Flame, her damage can increase over time as she uses her abilities. The check on this increase is energy consumption - unlike Nidus (who gets refunded energy when using his 1) or Saryn (whose damage can increase without further casting), her abilities will consume notable amounts of energy. The limited uses available in the early game will create a small damage buff that persists even after her initially small energy pool is expended. Once her 4th ability is unlocked, she can trade some of her damage for more energy, allowing her to continue increasing her damage to deal with higher-level threats. 

This would provide an engaging, unique gameplay loop for Ember. In the same way that the definitive defensive abilities Snow Globe, Warding Halo, and Iron Skin all have mechanics that echo one another, so too would Saryn's Spores, Nidus's Mutation Stacks, and Ember's Eternal Flame all share a stacking-damage-over-time-and-use framework. She would require active play to keep inflicting heat procs on new enemies, just as Nidus must build stacks and Saryn must spread spores.

 

I like that you agree with me and think that she requires an entire new kit altogether. I like the synergy but here's the problem.

30 minutes ago, xXRampantXx said:

Ember's main issue is that heat damage is pretty bad (thanks to having few bonuses and a pretty lackluster proc).  Unless heat damage gets better I don't see any Ember rework making her effective past mid-level unless her powers are focused more towards utility like Mag's, which would be the complete opposite of what you (and I imagine most people) want.

^Like this guy said, fire damage is god awful unless it is in the hands of sortie-level hyekka masters or grineer scorchers, where it turns your frame into a boiled egg in 0.5 second. Which makes me wonder what the hell is up with fire scaling for tennos vs. fire scaling for mobs?

In any case I feel like changing the effects of heat procs is a good place to start. Like for instance, what if heat procs made things "brittle" in addition to giving that small crowd-control effect that they tend to have? This brittle effect could definitely help with scaling fire damage. Like what if this "brittle" effect applied a damage bonus to enemies? For instance, I can theorise something like grineer armor becoming brittle and thus more liable to being damaged. And so the stronger the fire damage applied, the higher the damage bonus to enemies that have been made brittle.

In short, I agree that Ember is a DPS frame and should remain as a DPS frame. There should not be changes made to her that make her a utility frame. On the other hand, she should require that players work for the DPS she deals as opposed to just pressing a button and running around. I honestly want Ember to get a new kit so that I can play her. She's the only older prime frame that I do not use because of how awful her current kit is.

[Darksamus105]

56 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

New passive and 4 new abilities.

This isn't a rework, it's a new frame.

Just because the frame isn't identical to what it was before doesn't mean it has to be a fully new warframe. Plenty of games can completely rework a class's abilities while still keeping the class's theme and identity intact, why can't DE do the same with Warframes?

[Darksamus105]

I also had an idea for an Ember rework recently. I don't want to come off as a self-promoting worm, so instead I'll just share my personal opinion of this idea. Like others have said, heat damage is really bad against anything but infested past mid-game. that's Ember's primary issue, and sadly, it's one that won't be fixed without more or less an entire damage system rework, essentially damage 3.0. The ideas listed above are appealing though, at least in my eyes. I really like Ember's aesthetic, and I've always thought that if I could pick one of the four basic elements, Fire would be my most likely first pick. It's a shame that Ember is advertised as a damage warframe, but can't really perform her advertised role. I hope DE gives ideas like yours and mine some acknowledgement though.

[peterc3]

41 minutes ago, Darksamus105 said:

Just because the frame isn't identical to what it was before doesn't mean it has to be a fully new warframe. Plenty of games can completely rework a class's abilities while still keeping the class's theme and identity intact, why can't DE do the same with Warframes?

This is most of the work that would go into an entirely new frame that can be sold and marketed and not have any kind of meme attached to the name.

The frames are characters themselves, not merely classes.

[Me.KayOh]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

This is most of the work that would go into an entirely new frame that can be sold and marketed and not have any kind of meme attached to the name.

The frames are characters themselves, not merely classes.

Nothing in the OP's suggested rework removes Ember's "character". It simply updates her aged and horrible kit.

[peterc3]

30 minutes ago, Me.Church said:

Nothing in the OP's suggested rework removes Ember's "character". It simply updates her aged and horrible kit.

It gets rid of literally everything in Ember's current kit except for the fact she is fire based.

There's a 0.00000% chance something like this ever goes into a rework for an existing frame.

[Atsia]

8 hours ago, Darksamus105 said:

Just because the frame isn't identical to what it was before doesn't mean it has to be a fully new warframe. Plenty of games can completely rework a class's abilities while still keeping the class's theme and identity intact, why can't DE do the same with Warframes?

Peter has a point. The most DE ever does in any one rework is replace a single ability, like with Limbo. So yes, you changed 3 abilities and gave her a new passive, which is effort more comparable to making a new frame than a rework and is thus unlikely to happen.

[Darksamus105]

1 hour ago, Atsia said:

Peter has a point. The most DE ever does in any one rework is replace a single ability, like with Limbo. So yes, you changed 3 abilities and gave her a new passive, which is effort more comparable to making a new frame than a rework and is thus unlikely to happen.

I understand that, but my point remains. They *COULD*. That doesn't mean they will, but the potential exists regardless of how unlikely it is. Look at World of Warcraft. I realize the comparrison is like Apples to Bananas, but just roll with it. Warlocks have shifted in theme and focus to the point where they played like an entirely new class, but the fantasy, theme and identity of the class at its core still remained more or less the same. The same could be done for Warframes. I'm not saying it will happen, just that the possibility exists. Some warframes just have objectively bad abilities and kits that need to be changed.

[Me.KayOh]

15 hours ago, peterc3 said:

It gets rid of literally everything in Ember's current kit except for the fact she is fire based.

There's a 0.00000% chance something like this ever goes into a rework for an existing frame.

Incorrect. He left Accelerant as is.

And no, it's your opinion that something like this has a "0.00000% chance of getting into a rework for Ember. Last time I checked, your opinion, is not fact.

 

9 hours ago, Atsia said:

Peter has a point. The most DE ever does in any one rework is replace a single ability, like with Limbo. So yes, you changed 3 abilities and gave her a new passive, which is effort more comparable to making a new frame than a rework and is thus unlikely to happen.

I hope you people realise that everything the OP suggested could get into an Ember rework and simply replace the current abilities without changing the abilities' name.

Yes, that's a thing. Because DE has never done it before, doesn't mean they won't do it. Did you know that Ember's already had two of her abilities completely changed? They weren't done simultaneously but yea.

Not sure how come "new" abilities is such a hang up for some people because at the end of the day, she needs a new kit. Whether the new abilities have the same name, different name, I honestly don't care. Ember is currently lethargic gameplay bound by how stupidly terrible fire damage scales (for Tenno). Simply tweaking her abilities won't fix the many issues of her entire kit.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

It's possible, but very unlikely DE will go with this option. 

They've mentioned in the past that they are trying to avoid complete replacement of kits. It's far cheaper and faster for them to make adjustments to mechanics within existing abilities and only replace as necessary instead of replacing 80% of it and keeping 1 thing.

As Peter said, it would be more profitable to take your idea, remove Accelerant and sell a new frame.

[(XBOX)Khyron42 Prime]

Hmmm. I wonder how many players buy Ember for platinum?

Would that number increase if every single major Warframe streamer didn't crap all over Ember and declare her a dead frame every single time she's mentioned?

And would that be a simpler way of making slightly more money rather than designing an entirely new frame? After all, the old animations can be re-used or tweaked. 

Also, Heat damage does suck! So Eternal Flame should instead add a unique "Fire" damage, which ignores armor. "Is that just Slash damage with a different name," you ask? "Who the heck cares," I answer. The Heat proc and base Heat damage can stay, but the bonus damage to abilities and weapons could ignore armor and possibly even shields.

I don't think it's too crazy an idea. Atlas, Saryn, Limbo... these frames all received major changes, including entirely new mechanics. Ember needs a major shakeup, and I had an idea that creates a cohesive, synergistic kit which ties strongly to her theme.

[(PSN)CaitaZatomi]

If were talking just making her more usable, I'd like to see maybe like a few number tweaks, a better passive, and an alteration to how WoF works.

If were not going to get a universal buff to how heat procs work, something like what OP suggested would be ideal. My idea would be to give Ember like a heat meter for a passive that increases as she uses her abilities and gives either a boost to her Fire damage based on he intensity of the fire around her, or stacks like OP said. In either case once the gauge/stacks are high enough, have her abilities start applying a "molten" debuff to abilities, which causes further attacks to either ignore a certain amount of armor or melt it off. Armor is literally the bane of every single offensive frame in this game and the inability to remove it without corrosive is the biggest problem I'm noticing. For balance reasons, the heat gauge/stacks would decay over time (slowly, we don't need another "Rubble" rapid decay).

Reduce the energy cost on Fire Ball to like 10 so she can spam it, speed up the charge rate on the charged version on it and have the charged version guarantee a heat proc as well as self-sustained AOE (think nightwatch napalm, but better numbers). This serves the dual purpose of making her one usable since its currently pointless, and helps her build heat gauge/procs.

Accelerant can stay, though I'd be open to a buff/alteration.

Fire Blast can literally leave and I would not miss it. I cannot imagine a situation where I would want to use thing and not just choose a frame that could protect themselves instead. But if it had to stay, I would have it continuously build her new passive for its duration and create a superheated zone where enemy projectiles have a percent chance to evaporate based on her gauge/stacks level. That way her passive would be served by this ability AND would protect her in places where you cannot depend on your opponents running into the zone to get CC'd.

World on Fire is so close to being good. Minor mechanical change, Id have her first enter a channeling state where she'd start consuming energy at about the same rate she does now, if not a little faster. While channeling, she can still move, roll, and bullet jump, but not shoot. After channeling for as long as you want, she releases a massive blast of fire damage all around her. The flames persist along surfaces such as walls and floors, dealing a percentage of the damage from the blast to any survivor's still in the zone of flames. The range would increase based on the amount of energy spent while channeling (the amount required for meeting specific thresholds affected by mods of course). I'm honestly fine with that being all the ability does since players who have been taking advantage of her new passive should be able to circumvent the armor problem by blasting it away in a huge area with this. It also promotes use of her 3 to protect you while charging without forcing you to do so.

 

[Elementalos]

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

Not sure how come "new" abilities is such a hang up for some people

For one, there's the game flow factor. People who really like Ember probably don't want to play an entirely new warframe that shares Ember's name, they want to play Ember but good.

For another, there's the practicality factor. The more dramatically a set of proposed changes the more difficult it is to implement and the less realistic getting said changes implemented becomes. 

And at some point the thread becomes less about Ember feedback/suggestions and more like a stealth fan-frame thread. 

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

because at the end of the day, she needs a new kit.

It seems kind of weird to get all angry at peter for supposedly stating his opinion as fact and then drop this a couple lines later. 

[Me.KayOh]

39 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

For one, there's the game flow factor. People who really like Ember probably don't want to play an entirely new warframe that shares Ember's name, they want to play Ember but good.

Game flow factor? I would have thought that a rework where the frame actually scales as a DPS frame and where slightly more interesting than " press four and run" around all the time would be welcomed. What about the people who don't like that though? Are they just supposed to stay away from the frame forever?

41 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

For another, there's the practicality factor. The more dramatically a set of proposed changes the more difficult it is to implement and the less realistic getting said changes implemented becomes. 

By this logic, DE would never even create new frames. Nothing the OP posted is even remotely impractical or difficult.

42 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

It seems kind of weird to get all angry at peter for supposedly stating his opinion as fact and then drop this a couple lines later. 

Weird? Is it though? 

I thought people liked progressing out of stale gameplay to move on to more interesting things. Because everyone's been saying lately how "the game's mechanics need changing."

In the same breath they'll say "No don't change Ember. Don't nerf memeing strike and whips. Nerf Saryn because muh kills." 

Do you see why it's not weird? If not, I expect you to go to every nerf-Saryn thread and type the same "It seems kinda weird."

[Elementalos]

2 hours ago, Me.Church said:

What about the people who don't like that though? Are they just supposed to stay away from the frame forever?

I mean, yeah, that's generally how that works. If a frame doesn't suit your playstyle, find one that does. Picking a caster frame when you really want something that emphasizes melee combat (as per the OP's suggestion) seems odd. 

 

[Me.KayOh]

27 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

I mean, yeah, that's generally how that works. If a frame doesn't suit your playstyle, find one that does.

That's not what DE supposedly aspires to though. It's like how they supposedly "strive" to produce frames that can be used throughout the game. Ember doesn't even fall into that category either. But they're supposedly aiming to create frames that everyone would want to use.

It's not only me that has a problem with her current abilities and the current "playstyle" that those abilities produce. And I'm pretty sure I mentioned the fire damage scaling issue.

I, like many others spent time farming both versions of the frame. The way I see it, we have a problem here, just like how we have a problem with Vauban. I don't see people clamoring for others to "just sweep him under the carpet" and not use him. It's what people are forced to do because the kit in the current "meta" of the game is just in varying degrees of dilapidation, for a lack of better words. It doesn't mean it's what everyone wants to do. And there's a difference really. At the end of the day, the frames are content in the game that I want to experience and enjoy and have fun with. In the long forgotten past, new frames were the most exciting thing to look forward to. Nowadays it's like both developers and players gloss over that fact way too easily. Or maybe I'm just old-fashioned that way.

29 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

Picking a caster frame when you really want something that emphasizes melee combat (as per the OP's suggestion) seems odd. 

Your caster frame started out as a DPS frame. Of course she can DPS everything below a certain level, as a DPS should. But even then I, like many others, find the resulting playstyle so non-engaging and boring. If you and good ol' Pete there are both telling me that she's supposed to be a non-engaging and boring frame to play then ok. I'm glad we could sort that out. DE will create much more intricate frames but Ember is supposed to be this way. Ok

Second to that, from what I've seen of her current kit and the way most players make said DPS frame viable at the very high tier end-game is when they turn her into a CC frame with Firequake. That's disheartening to me. So picking a DPS frame and then saying "yea she's viable" but only as CC is really a feelsbadman.

To be fair though, the OP should not have specified melee attacks and instead should have made that ability similar to what Toxic Lash is now. At least with Flaming Sword, you'd be engaged in getting your Eternal Flame counter up. As opposed to you know, press four and run around until you run out of energy, rinse and repeat.

[MasterBurik]

On 2019-01-28 at 4:52 PM, Me.Church said:

...fire damage is god awful unless it is in the hands of sortie-level hyekka masters or grineer scorchers, where it turns your frame into a boiled egg in 0.5 second. Which makes me wonder what the hell is up with fire scaling for tennos vs. fire scaling for mobs?

Tenno don't scale exponentially:

Tenno don't scale, really. They pseudo-scale through alternate mechanics, each of which have caps or caveats that limit their ability to scale beyond certain points (without personal skill).