I Tried Everything (Ashgate)

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

True. But it's not quite as important as you'd think, unless you only ever use that one ability. (Don't get me wrong, it's still important, and Ash needs improvement in this regard. Just not that important.)
Going back to my Loki-vs-Octavia example, I'd still pick Loki any day of the week. Yes, Octavia's Decoy+Invis are strictly better, but Loki's SwitchTele+Disarm (both of which synergize nicely with his Decoy+Invis) are options that Octavia simply doesn't have.

 

Again, I'm totally down for Bladestorm to get some scaling improvement. But I get the feeling that you're just comparing it to "Saryn and Mesa can kill more enemies more quickly!", without really considering what might be a balanced number of kills for a single button press.
Yes, Saryn and Mesa can kill things way more efficiently than Bladestorm. However please understand: Saryn and Mesa are also stupidly overpowered. 

Like @Hypernaut1 said, the last thing this game needs is an arms race between the strongest damage-dealer abilities. There are a lot of things that are much less effective than Spore+Fingerguns despite requiring more effort (including Exalted Blade, which you also included in your "here comes _____!" list). And frankly, this isn't Ash's problem.

Also he's forgetting that Ash has probably the best Passive in the game!

[Torrempesta]

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Umm.... Yes you can? The one ability that stops you from attacking is used to fatally teleport to and kill an enemy.

No you can't. You can't use your 1 while shooting, you can't TP while attacking in general and you can't do it while using BS because, well, it would be pointless...

 

 

11 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you play at decent levels

If my grandfather had three balls he would have been a pinball. Do we really need to reach minute 120 in any mission in order to play a character decently? I don't think so.

 

12 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If you aren't getting ANY kills

I get them, but too few considering the role of this frame. Gosh... It's like talking to a rubber wall...

 

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

You forgot Gara she can nuke a whole map up till like level 80 mobs and her two can literally do millions of dps!

But you have to work for it, and just one mistake resets everything. So... no argument here.

 

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Going back to my Loki-vs-Octavia example, I'd still pick Loki any day of the week

Because Octavia problem is that she is too stressful... and noisy... I want everyone to remember that DE had to put a specific option in "Audio/Sound" (whatever it is) just for her.
Octavia's invisibility is by far the best in the game, but she is not played and is forgotten because she is overall boring. Her whole kit, beside invisibility, doesn't work that well. She is a mono button frame that doesn't kill with it...

 

7 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Saryn and Mesa are also stupidly overpowered. 

OH but I KNOW that! I even stated that DE couldn't do anything about them, because changing anything about those frames would mean deleting them... Like Ash has been deleted from the scene... 
Look, some months ago there was a thread that stated one simple issue: it seems that devs are SCARED of creating and giving us powerful characters... in a game where you have to kill dozens of enemies at a time? Seems strange right?

Oh, I forgot another frame: Volt. He had been even nerfed and still is not enough (it couldn't be more ofc... they don't want to kill a base frame).

 

9 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

the last thing this game needs is an arms race between the strongest damage-dealer abilities

It's not a matter of arm race, it's a matter of balance NOT against enemies, but AMONG WFs!

[Torrempesta]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Also he's forgetting that Ash has probably the best Passive in the game!

It would be if you could actually use it with your ultimate. I even wrote the EASY and FUN mechanics of Ash before. Do you really read the whole thread before commenting?

Also: Atlas passive is the most useful. 
Inaros one is quite outstanding.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

4 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

It would be if you could actually use it with your ultimate. I even wrote the EASY and FUN mechanics of Ash before. Do you really read the whole thread before commenting?

Also: Atlas passive is the most useful. 
Inaros one is quite outstanding.

Of course I read this farse you have literally no argument. All you're saying is Frame A, B and C can nuke map, why can't my wanna be favorite frame X can't nuke map like them, DE pls make frame X be able to clear room just as effortless too! What he's an assassin frame? So?! I want balance! There's no balance if all frames can't nuke a map like them!

[(XBOX)Shodian]

5 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

It would be if you could actually use it with your ultimate. 

You can, it makes slash effects last longer and are more powerful. Usually I have groups of enemies bleeding to death after his ult. If you use a dagger with a quick attack speed you go through the animation really quickly. 

This thread is really just a fancy way of saying you want Ash buffed but he's fine the way he is.

[Torrempesta]

Just now, (XB1)Shodian said:

You can, it makes slash effects last longer and are more powerful. Usually I have groups of enemies bleeding to death after his ult. If you use a dagger with a quick attack speed you go through the animation really quickly. 

This thread is really just a fancy way of saying you want Ash buffed but he's fine the way he is.

But you don't use it. Maybe your team uses it. So... Ash is officially a support frame? Why that ultimate tho? And, I damn knew it, none of you understood a single word and concept expressed in this thread...

 

 

1 minute ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Of course I read this farse you have literally no argument. All you're saying is Frame A, B and C can nuke map, why can't my wanna be favorite frame X can't nuke map like them, DE pls make frame X be able to clear room just as effortless too! What he's an assassin frame? So?! I want balance! There's no balance if all frames can't nuke a map like them!

I am honestly ignoring you from now on... The one with no argument here is you. You keep ignoring facts because you THINK that I am some sort of butthurt Ash fanboy who needs satisfaction, when in reality I am just a long time player who wants to improve this game.
Why do you think "Garuda, the Gore Queen" isn't played at all? Because she is outperformed, like Ash, by other DPS frames.

See? The problem is not my alleged "fanboyism" or "butthurt" for Ash decline... It's a problem that other frames suffer... too bad Ash wasn't like them before.

[Torrempesta]

Damn it, I am not even a Ash fan! I have always found him boring! But between boring and unplayable I prefer boring!
None of us can literally play this frame in a relaxing way because you need to pay attention to TOO MANY things and, lately, obtaining NOTHING.
If I want to use a frame that requires a lot of attention I would play a support frame like Trinity or Oberon or even Radial Disarm Loki... Supports really needs (relatively) more attention and brain in order to be useful in this game.

[shut]

Just now, Torrempesta said:

Look, some months ago there was a thread that stated one simple issue: it seems that devs are SCARED of creating and giving us powerful characters... in a game where you have to kill dozens of enemies at a time? Seems strange right?
...

It's not a matter of arm race, it's a matter of balance NOT against enemies, but AMONG WFs!

Dude, I support you in that Ash needs buffing, but you're being entirely unreasonable here. (Also, it seems like you don't understand what an arms race is.)

This conversation has boiled down to you fundamentally not understanding that PVE games need balance. Not just balance among player choices, but ALSO balance against enemies.
If balance against enemies doesn't matter, then why not buff every warframe to be Mesa on steroids so that enemies die faster? Why not make every bullet explode in a large AoE, so that enemies die faster? Why not let every player unlock a secondary weapon that deals 999999999999 damage to the entire map at the cost of 1 ammo, so that enemies die faster?

 

Balance against enemies is important. There is simply no point to the game otherwise.
And what I'm saying is, Saryn and Mesa are two frames that have somewhat upset that balance. NOTHING needs to be buffed to their level.
_{^{Important note: Plenty of things still need buffing, including Ash. Just not to the level of Saryn and Mesa.}}

[Torrempesta]

Just now, SortaRandom said:

Also, it seems like you don't understand what an arms race is

Probably... is it not like an arm wrestling? 😅

 

1 minute ago, SortaRandom said:

If balance against enemies doesn't matter, then why not buff every warframe to be Mesa on steroids so that enemies die faster?

At this point: why creating Mesa? You can't give something amazing to a fanbase and then remove it... you will kill your business. DE knows it, but they nerfed Ash. Just Ash. 
 

 

2 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Balance against enemies is important.

But it's easier to buff enemies, and it's more challenging. 

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

8 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

But you don't use it. Maybe your team uses it. So... Ash is officially a support frame? Why that ultimate tho? And, I damn knew it, none of you understood a single word and concept expressed in this thread...

 

 

I am honestly ignoring you from now on... The one with no argument here is you. You keep ignoring facts because you THINK that I am some sort of butthurt Ash fanboy who needs satisfaction, when in reality I am just a long time player who wants to improve this game.
Why do you think "Garuda, the Gore Queen" isn't played at all? Because she is outperformed, like Ash, by other DPS frames.

See? The problem is not my alleged "fanboyism" or "butthurt" for Ash decline... It's a problem that other frames suffer... too bad Ash wasn't like them before.

Thanks I was getting tired of your foolishness anyways, so you going to block everyone else as well? Till it's just you agreeing with yourself?

[Mr.Fluffins]

1 hour ago, Torrempesta said:

OHMYGOD...
Maybe because I would really like to play a frame that I managed to obtain through gameplay? I don't know! It's excruciating talking with some of you, really...!
I have a frame? I want to play it!

And about % of usage:

So, I looked at the chart, and I don't see Ash being not used at all, in fact he is in the range with many other frames, except for the most meta ones... I feel like it doesn't support your argument.

In fact, I don't see any argument. You want a non-nuker warframe to be as good as nukers... People told you that he has other roles on the battlefield, and is better at dealing with single tough enemies (also invisibility, one of the best defense mechanics in the entire game), but that somehow doesn't satisfy you...

When I see a Saryn getting more kills and damage than me, I don't really care, because that's Saryn, she is good at kiling many enemies...

I mean, you can get top kills and damage as any warframe with a good melee weapon, does that invalidate warframes? I really don't get your logic.

You want a warframe that is good at some things to be good at others instead. I don't bring a Saryin to eidolon hunts and then complain how she is useless compared to trinity, volt, chroma, oberon, rhino etc. I don't bring rhino to intercept or defence and then complain how frost or limbo is better at keeping the objective safe. I don't bring Saryn to high index and then complain how she can't oneshot brokers like Ash... the list goes on. Some warframes are better than others in certain situations, bar few poor outliers. Some offer a variant of an existing "role" (simply because there are too many warframes, they can't all be truly unique).

[shut]

48 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Probably... is it not like an arm wrestling? 😅

I'm sure you're joking, but on the off chance that you're being serious, it's basically when multiple competing entities keep getting stronger and stronger for the sake of one-upping each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

48 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

At this point: why creating Mesa? You can't give something amazing to a fanbase and then remove it... you will kill your business. DE knows it, but they nerfed Ash. Just Ash.

Hold up-- you can't seriously believe that Ash is the only frame that DE ever nerfed?
Also, more importantly, yes you can give something amazing to a fanbase and then tone it down a notch. Obviously it's going to disappoint a bunch of players who liked being that powerful, but it's necessary for the long-term health of the game. You ever play Pokemon with hacks enabled, or reach the level cap in Skyrim? It's fun being super-ultra-godlike for a bit... but then, inevitably, it gets boring.

Disappointing a large handful of players is WAY better than having a large handful of players quit the game because they get bored of being so powerful.

 

48 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

But it's easier to buff enemies, and it's more challenging.

It's not easier. Not by any stretch of the imagination. If a class is too powerful, there are a couple of options that developers can make:

1. First, you have some frames that outperform everything else. --> Devs buff every frame to match their level. --> The game's too easy, so devs buff enemies to pose a threat to players. --> To generate hype, some new class gets released to deal with these ultra-powerful enemies. --> Cycle repeats.
   This continues over and over for years on end, eating up a lot of developer resources that could've gone into producing actual content. "Balance" is occasionally achieved, just with bigger numbers than the previous iteration.
   (This is a simplified view of the matter, for game design in general. Warframe is already kind of "beyond" this loop, and not in a good way.)
   
   - versus -
    
2. "Hotfix 24.2.12:
   - Peacemaker has a smaller targeting cone.
   - Spore deals increased damage, but will leave enemies at 1HP rather than killing them."           (Not perfect, but you get the idea.)

Which one do you think looked easier?

 

EDIT:
Wow, this got WAY off topic.
tl;dr: Ash needs a buff. Ash does NOT need to be buffed to Mesa/Saryn levels, as that's a very unhealthy way of balancing this game as a whole.

Edited January 30, 2019 by SortaRandom

[(PSN)abbacephas]

After 3 pages the TL:DR version of this thread is: OP doesn't know how to play Ash.

[Torrempesta]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

So, I looked at the chart, and I don't see Ash being not used at all, in fact he is in the range with many other frames, except for the most meta ones... I feel like it doesn't support your argument.

In fact, I don't see any argument. You want a non-nuker warframe to be as good as nukers... People told you that he has other roles on the battlefield, and is better at dealing with single tough enemies (also invisibility, one of the best defense mechanics in the entire game), but that somehow doesn't satisfy you...

When I see a Saryn getting more kills and damage than me, I don't really care, because that's Saryn, she is good at kiling many enemies...

I mean, you can get top kills and damage as any warframe with a good melee weapon, does that invalidate warframes? I really don't get your logic.

You want a warframe that is good at some things to be good at others instead. I don't bring a Saryin to eidolon hunts and then complain how she is useless compared to trinity, volt, chroma, oberon, rhino etc. I don't bring rhino to intercept or defence and then complain how frost or limbo is better at keeping the objective safe. I don't bring Saryn to high index and then complain how she can't oneshot brokers like Ash... the list goes on. Some warframes are better than others in certain situations, bar few poor outliers. Some offer a variant of an existing "role" (simply because there are too many warframes, they can't all be truly unique).

- No, he suffers like other frames like Khora and Garuda, as already said in this thread.
- No, I don't want a non-nuker frame to be a nuker, because of course there are roles in this game too, even if it's not a common type of action rpg (if EVEN is an action RPG and not just a TPS, who cares, you get my point). I want a frame with a specific role to be as performing as other frames with the same role. Simple. This argument goes for Octavia too in the section "Support Frames".
- Why having abilities then, if I can do the same with just a good melee? 
- So you are comparing a WHOLE role to a simple ability? Frost can defend MUCH better than Ash can kill... They are not on the same page but if we compare the EFFICIENCY (again I have to underline this word...) with these two completely different frames operate, well, we can clearly see who is the winner.

Look, I just finished today's sortie with Ash, I did my fair share of damage, I got my kills, I did a decent job being the main DPS... But there was no satisfaction.
I played Seeking Shuriken build with Redeemer Prime (gas). 

- Go invisible ✔️
- Spam Shuriken ✔️
- Shoot with viral or gas ✔️
- ???
- Profit.

The others were just doing the same standing in one spot and doing their job... 
I don't know... It seems like you don't want to understand my point.

[Torrempesta]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

After 3 pages the TL:DR version of this thread is: OP doesn't know how to play Ash.

After 3 pages of comments and discussion there are still poor beings who don't have any argument.
Jesus. Do you even know how much research I put on him over 3 months? I checked YT, forums, other players, I tried myself to create a personal build for a personal play-style.
But no... of course our dude abbacephas knows how I play Ash, even tho I WROTE DOWN all the way he is played and how well I know his combo and interactions AFTER an hardcore Ash fan used the SAME argument against me, forcing him to abandon the said accusation.

Jesus.
Jesus...
 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

2 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Do you even know how much research I put on him over 3 months?
 

Clearly, none.

2 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

After 3 pages of comments and discussion there are still poor beings who don't have any argument.

Irony.

[Torrempesta]

1 minute ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Clearly, none.

Irony.

Dude, I don't know what to tell you: re-read the whole thread. Your brain seems to need to read anyway. 

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

1 minute ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Clearly, none.

Irony.

Yep there's clearly nothing we can possibly say to him, he knows everything and the point of this thread was just for him to tell us all about it and everyone that dissagree is wrong or trolling obviously....

[(PSN)abbacephas]

1 minute ago, Torrempesta said:

Dude, I don't know what to tell you: re-read the whole thread. Your brain seems to need to read anyway. 

Reading it once was enough. I do not wish to kill off any more brain cells than I have already done going through this the first time.

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

2 hours ago, Gnlstorm said:

They is no bad warframe/weapon/mod only bad player

There is plenty of bad stuff  in this game that used to be good and fun to use. Unfortunately it seems like it has a tendency to get destroyed  

[Torrempesta]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Yep there's clearly nothing we can possibly say to him, he knows everything and the point of this thread was just for him to tell us all about it and everyone that dissagree is wrong or trolling obviously....

It's really strange that I could have a decent conversation with @SortaRandom even tho he disagreed with me for 80% of my argument.
Why, really, why I can't have the same type of kind and calm conversation with your toxic way to dialogue which just resort to the boring and moronic argument "yoU dOnT kNoW HoW tO PlaY HiM!1!"?
Really, I can't fathom why...

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

3 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

It's really strange that I could have a decent conversation with @SortaRandom even tho he disagreed with me for 80% of my argument.
Why, really, why I can't have the same type of kind and calm conversation with your toxic way to dialogue which just resort to the boring and moronic argument "yoU dOnT kNoW HoW tO PlaY HiM!1!"?
Really, I can't fathom why...

Sorry don't try to play the innocent victim card on me and thanks for clearly lying about what I said as I haven't told you once that you don't know how to play him. 

[Torrempesta]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Sorry don't try to play the innocent victim card on me and thanks for clearly lying about what I said as I haven't told you once that you don't know how to play him. 

Well I am sorry then, I could have got confused with other people who said it. My apology.

[Torrempesta]

But still: I don't claim to know everything about Ash, but after 3 months of trial and error I think I can have my saying. 
Ash is outperformed, like other frames, but the difference between him and Garuda (for example) is that he wasn't born like this, and he was nerfed because DE said "We don't want a 1 button frame", while having TONS of 1 button frames. It's pure hypocrisy.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

The problem is I can't have fun if there is nothing left to kill... for an assassin frame... You enjoy it? Good for you! Really! But wouldn't it be more fun for you too if he got back to his prime? (No pun intended).

Which is not a bad thing, but maybe it's better suited for a support frame who can do that more efficiently? Nekros does it! In his full tank build he can actually reduce enemies armor by something like 70% (even more I suspect), but with just 1 button in a huge area! 
With Ash? *1... 1... 1-1-1-1-1-1... 1... 1-1-1... etc etc* pretty boring...

If you are familiar with Talon, an assassin in LoL, Ash Shuriken could be like an ability of Talon: in a cone he damages the enemies. Period. Easier and could scale with range.

Uhm if you run a Nekros tank build you will not sit at anywhere near 70%. You have around 2 slots open for him after you've spent everything you need on tank mods.

Equilibrium, Health Conversion, Quick Thinking, Despoil, Shield of Shadows and Flow/Primed. After that you have 2 slots left, preferably you slot vitality to better sustain despoil and the last is either spent on more HP or Strength to buff SoS. That last spot gets you nowhere near a massive amount of armor strip, even if you spend it on Blind Rage. Plus it is a freakin flee mechanic tied into it, annoying to have to deal with at best.

And as for Baruuk needing awareness? Mmm yeah because his 3 and 4 dont trivialize that at all.