"Overheated" Ember Rework Concept

[Violet_Xe]

Not sure if this goes to fan zone or here, so i'll just place this here. Hopefully it gets moved if it's in the wrong area. But I've got an ember rework suggestion and yes she REALLY needs one. She's still viable if you really work on her but she just can't compete against other frames. I also said I wanted to post more concepts and talk in the forums so here we go. The idea won't be perfect so I'd like some feedback on it. And before the protective ember mains jump on me, Yes she isn't all that bad, but she does need a rework eventually. She's viable but not at that good tier anymore.

Note this build will primarily be built around ability Synergy, Overheat, Fire for condition overload, and of course making her passive useful pretty much always giving her a consistent source of energy. She will be a frame that newer players need to be careful with so as to not die, but then when they start killing eidolons, ember suddenly gets a fun power spike and players can be more reckless like wildfire. Overall she becomes both a reckless and tactical warframe that keeps you on your toes as things can go downhill quickly. Also props to DK, his video did give me some ideas but i went a bit more crazy with the fire and make her feel more like an actual fire inspired frame.

S = Affected by Power Strength       D = Affected by Power Duration
E = Affected by Power Efficiency     R = Affected by Power Range

Ember Prime
Armor 100 125
Energy 160 160
Health 100 100
Shields 100 125 Increased to 130 150  *Will justify in a bit* 
Sprint Speed 1.10 1.10

Passive: Phoenix, -Regenerates 5 energy and increases ability strength by 30% while on fire. Generates 1 overheat every 2 seconds while on fire.
                             -Phoenix makes Ember's fire special. Enemies will take an extra 1/3 of their secondary defense from Phoenix Heat Damage.. This effect is 25% more effective against all flesh with no negatives.
*will get more use out of this with rework suggestion so she lost 5% and 5 energy regen* *Phoenix heat damage is only on ember and ember's abilities.* *Phoenix Heat allows ember to scale*

A vertical energy bar will be on the top of the screen representing overheat* // S=AoE Damage, Self Damage, Damage reduction D=Burn Duration R=Range of burn aura
-Overheat drops by 1% every 3 seconds while not on fire. // D= Less duration means it will drop faster, but increased duration will not increase overheat drop.
-every 1% of overheat grants 1 armor. // S= Increases armor gained <Only at one to prevent her from getting like 400 armor.
-At 60% overheat ember catches fire but doesn't take much damage. 90% shields max. 2 self dmg
-At 70% overheat ember takes more damage from fire but has a small aura of fire around her that ignites enemies 3 meters from her dealing 30 damage a second. 90% shields max 5 self dmg
-At 80%% overheat ember takes more damage from fire but has a larger aura of fire around her that ignites enemies 4 meters from her dealing 60 damage a second.80% shields max 10 self dmg
-At 90% overheat ember takes more damage from fire but has a larger aura of fire around her that ignites enemies 5 meters from her dealing 120 damage a second 60% shields max 20 self dmg
-At 100% overheat ember gains 30% additional damage reduction (caps at 60%) but takes 1% of her max hp a second on top of her burning damage. enemies 6 meters from her take 240 damage a second per enemy currently on fire. 20% shields max 40 self dmg S= Increased Damage Reduction 
-Overheat can go over 100% if world on fire is active, however it will instantly go down to 100% upon ending World on Fire. 150 is the max.
-At 110% overheat deals 45 damage to self
-At 120% overheat deals 50 damage to self
-At 130% overheat deals 55 damage to self
-At 140% overheat deals 60 damage to self <Meltdown warnings show up to warn players>
-At 150% causes ember to enter Meltdown mode
-At 100% overheat Ember loses 15% critical chance to everything <to give another reason to avoid crit weapons or avoid 100% overheat, you pick>
-Energy orbs act as a coolant, cutting overheat by 8% while also giving the energy
-Screen has slowly burning up the edges more and more the higher overheat gets. as a visible reminder when it gets too hot. % is also visible at top right of screen.
-At 100% overheat all abilities cost 5 more energy
-All allies can see what overheat Ember is at. <somehow because I don't know how to implement a visible way to see that, but it'd be helpful>

Meltdown Mode
- Added 100% power strength to all abilities while in Meltdown
- All weapons are given 100% fire damage for 20 seconds during and after meltdown for 20 seconds.
- Added 100% power duration to all abilities while in Meltdown
-Deals 150 self damage per second
-Ember dies after 20 seconds of Meltdown by exploding killing all enemies within 50 meters. *NO DOWN STAGE but you can revive*
-Ember must go below 130% overheat within 20 seconds. <Changed from 100% to 130% to prevent yourself from blowing up too often>
-Must not enter meltdown again for 2 minutes or ember will go down in the attempt. <timer at top right showing how long until Meltdown is avalible>

I wanted ember to have a unique feature to make her more of a complex warframe. Build her right and think about what you'll be doing within the missions. Well one of the frames that does this was Nidus, so i wanted to have another special resource for the warframe. This also allows me to have some freedom in applying special buffs to abilities and you'll read later on. The buffs make you value some abilities more than others for specific builds. Her new resource means constant management. At 60 and 70% overheat, the fire is manageable 

Fireball: Drain 25 to 20 / Damage baseline 250 / Charge damage 500 / Area damage 30% of baseline to all enemies in range // S=Damage E=Efficiency D=Burn Duration R=Range of area damage
*Higher overheat increases damage and splash range
*Releases 5% Overheat* // D= Higher duration increases overheat released
*Fire is left at impact point for 10 seconds that deals 2X damage dealt of the fireball // S=Damage Multiplier R= Range of Fire D=How long fire is left behind
*Fireball will refresh and extend duration of Flame Blast if shot through or into the ring.* <Added from zephyr's interaction with tornadoes and her second ability>
*Fireball can be charged for an extra second giving it more damage.*

Fireball Augment Change, Wildfire- Enemies that die to fireball send another fireball out towards other enemies with 75% strength of the original.

Ok so the changes to fireball are mainly to encourage the actual use of the ability and I wanted to actually let it shine. You want to cast it at a higher overheat to deal more damage and hit more enemies. I also wanted to give the useless after flame a reason for being there rather than ticking low damage. Accelerant and Fireball together would allow fireball builds to be created and even more with WoF down the road. Fireball also needs to be a way to release overheat so you have a way to escape too much damage, and to do that you can throw out 2-3 fireballs cutting overheat down significantly. The augment is meant to encourage it even more and took inspiration from Nezha's chakram, but instead of getting stronger and stronger, they only go off once and at 75% power. Lets be honest DE, the first augment isn't worth it for Ember, Volt, and the other warframes.
I added the charge to the fireball to allow players in increase it's damage. Due to the addition of Phoenix Heat Damage, all of embers abilities will take a small baseline damage hit. I also made the refresh on fire blast so that you don't have to spend a ton of energy to recast the ability if you're paying attention.

Accelerant: Drain 60 / Radius 20 to 25 / Duration 30 to 25 / Damage Multiplier 2X // S=Accelerant damage multiplier E=Reduces cost of accelerant D=Duration of accelerant application R= Range
*If overheat is over 75% all enemies are instantly given a fire proc for 2 seconds for 100 damage a second
*Cast raises Overheat by 8% // D= Higher duration increases overheat generated
*Stuns enemies caught in accelerant*
*Enemies hit by accelerant have a .2X extra chance to drop orange energy orbs* S= Increased energy received from ember's energy orbs. <Works with mods, focus, and arcanes>
*Accelerant auto casts every time 100% overheat is hit <20 second cool down to prevent abuse>

Accelerant Augment Change, Flash Accelerant Accelerant gives 50% casting speed and 50% Phoenix Heat Damage to all allies in range.

Accelerant changes are primarily to give her a source of energy because of the WoF drain and abilities that she'll need to be using. They are cheap abilities but because you'll be throwing out fireballs so often you need a way to replenish energy. So for starters a small increased chance to drop energy orbs. I've made her orbs orange so that players know that those ones give more energy. I thinking behind this was to make Energy Conversion an option. Also the reason why I increased the radius of Accelerant was for the sniping embers like DK as well as the interaction for WoF and Fire blast I've added. Now you do need a way to generate accelerant without actually using fire on yourself, so why not on Accelerant. I've also added three special interactions with overheat just to keep you thinking about it. The most interesting one would be to use accelerant allowing her to burn enemies quicker.

Fire blast: Drain 60 / Explosion Damage 225 / DPS 100 (+250 to enemies hit by fireball) / Duration 15 // S= Increased damage E= Less cost D= Duration of ring 
*Can be held down to increase range of ring and duration by 2X, slows ember by 20% while charging*
*Releases 10% overheat* // D= Higher duration increases overheat released
*Imbues fire damage into shots through the ring* S= Increased fire damage
*If overheat is over 20% then Fireblast has 3 extra seconds to duration* D= Increases Duration boost
*Fire blast auto casts once at 100% overheat, doesn't use energy* <20 second cool down to prevent abuse>
*Everything inside the ring take 10% less damage* S= Increased damage reduction
*If accelerant is cast from within the fire blast, the surrounding area explodes again and panics enemies while still applying accelerant* <Added to make more ability synergy.

Fire blast is unique for me as shooting through it deals damage. But usually that's not enough to hook players into standing inside it. It's also not that large so shooting through it requires a bit of work. Because of that I wanted to allow you to charge it increasing duration and range allowing more players to fit inside it and ember to move around a bit more inside it as well. Also if you're smart enough you can move your way around and cast abilities not just by energy, but if you raise overheat with accelerant, you can cast both accelerant, fire blast, and start world on fire at once making life easier and quicker if you're smart about it. Fire blast will reduce overheat by 10% because fireball shouldn't be the only way to get rid of it, so if you want to lower overheat you can either throw a ball of death or make a small fort of flames. Fire blast also has an interaction with WoF to give the ability it's range back, meaning embers have to stay put a bit more. This also has synergy with Fireball to give even more fire damage encouraging you to use it more.

World on Fire: Drains 50 energy and 5 overheat / DrainPS 2 energy / Radius 18 Meters / damage 150 / Status Chance 40% // S= Increased damage E= Less energy drain R= Increases Radius 
*Fire pillars erupt from the ground beneath enemies and remain for 5 seconds before disappearing, Lasts longer the higher overheat is active* D= Increased time pillars spend out on the field.
*WoF shrinks to 60% range over 20 seconds and then remains at 50% D= Takes longer to shrink WoF ability <Changed from 50% to 60% range because 50 feels a tiny bit too short.
*While standing in a fire blast gain up to 20 meters of extra range that's unaffected by the halved range. 3 meters gained per second, and will decay slowly again after leaving.*
*Generates 1 overheat every two seconds while enabled* D= Takes longer for % to go up
*Enemies hit and burning from fireball take 200% extra damage from WoF* S= Increases damage multiplier
*1% overheat gives an additional 1% Power Strength to WoF* 
*All enemies that walk into the WoF Radius are automatically given a normal heat proc until they leave radius*
*At 100% overheat World on Fire is instantly activated if energy is available, will not turn off unless it drops to 99% or lower*
*At 100% Overheat WoF deals an extra 35% baseline but drains an extra 3 energy.
*1 extra energy drain every 10% after 100% Overheat* <scaling damage but prevents insane overuse of the ability>
*Can regenerate only 1 energy while on fire a second to counter insane energy drain, however other energy replenishing sources will not fill her energy other than orbs.*

Now the massive cut to her damage will be balanced out by accelerant and the overheat which will always be relatively high. It also means you will want to cast fireball more if you want to really nuke someone. However you can't have it running all the time simply due to the overheat as the damage at 90% and up will become crippling to you. Meaning at max you cannot have it running for more than 90 seconds UNLESS you keep in mind the overheat. This makes it both a set and forget, but a managing ability that will kill you if you don't know what you're doing. I also wanted to make it feel more like the world is actually burning so fire sticks around longer and all enemies around her will be burning, even if they don't do much damage they make her more fun anyways. Also remember that her passive increases power strength by 30% if she's on fire which you almost always will be now. Now this ability does start draining tons of energy however, Ember has a way to combat that. Infact only ember has this ability and that is because if you get her to over 50% overheat, she will start getting energy and baseline get stronger.

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Overall I believe i've solved the problem with her survivability issue due to her now having more shields, keeping her stuns, and increasing her range. She'll also now have armor and damage reduction. To solve DE's issue about her being a low level nuker, she still won't be able to clear people with her range unless she stops to stand in Fire Blast for several seconds. This makes ember sit still more in order to do her job. Mods and Arcane suddenly become viable for her as well increasing build variety. The reason I say Aegis and the shield mods is because by constantly hitting herself with fire from overheat, she avoids damage. She can also minimize it with adaptation. and if things really get hairy a quick thinking solves the issue just fine. Another arcane that would work REALLY well with ember is Arcane Ice, "what's arcane ice, never heard of it." Of course you haven't it's useless to literally everyone except ember. lol. No really it gives you a chance to resist a fire damage, so if she's on fire and resists damage from fire, she now also has a 100% overheat WoF build. Now another way you can survive is with an umbral ember build with a healing return build which lets you ignore shields.
I did test this out alot in the simulacrum giving her stats similar to what this rework would give her, *not abilities but stats* and saw that this would really help her out. I stood there and tanked a lvl 60 heavy gunner for over 20 seconds with only a rank 1 aegis. Considering there are players out there with maxed out arcanes, they could probably stand there for a minute without dying. She is now somewhat tanky, has a VERY unique playstyle, works with cool mods, and can have her damage back again in multiple different ways. The cherry on top is all her abilities are now viable and they work with each other. She also doubles as an indirect support as players will want to have her casting accelerant for energy and WoF for condition overload.
Remember that Ember is primarily a status warframe, so that's why I chose her. If i can't make her scale without breaking her then shift the focus onto weapons. Saryn and other frames may scale, however ember will allow players to deal damage through direct status. 
I know alot of people will automaticlly say this is too complex for ember which i want to say, why? You don't NEED to use overheat as it only ever starts changing gameplay to a massive effect at 60-100%. It's still pretty easy to avoid that. All her abilities baseline with the rework get buffed so she's still capable of that simple playstyle, but she will also have a complex side for those who want to learn her. So I don't see the issue UNLESS I missed something. Which I could have, not perfect. 

She does probably need some more changes as i'm playing around with an experimental resource, but hey. I think the concept came out pretty well. Food for thought DE take it if ya want. 🙂 I think next i'll either try to go over Nyx, Wukong, or Booben. Those three are kinda the most pressing in need of reworks but I've had this idea for awhile so I went with ember instead and I feel that this would really open up more build styles, AND make ember feel more like a fire warframe. So, what do you guys think?

Edited May 7, 2019 by Violet_Xe
Added some tweaks based off feedback.

[MirageKnight]

These are some interesting and well thought out suggestions to be sure.

That being said, I'm of the opinion that World on Fire ought to be a shock-wave type attack, a burst of super-heated air rushing out in all directions that ignites everything in its path, inflicting a guaranteed Heat proc. Yes, WoF ought to be fueled by her other abilities, in that those abilities generate an Overheat charge every time they're used. World on Fire then uses that Overheat, with each burst of WoF consuming a certain amount of Overheat charge. Think of WoF as a lethal means of expelling stored up heat / energy.

This encourages players to use other abilities and turns WoF into something more tactical and less "set it and forget it".

[-NightmareMoon-]

I hope you have fun writing that wall of text because DE it's just going to ignore it.

also giving ember less range is not going to fixing anything, that's her actual problem dude! I think you dont understand whats her problem, the thing you don't understand is that more damage wont do anything for her, fire do not scale with enemy armor so in high level missions is useless, now you are cutting off 50% of her range, she is dead, awful ideas overall, also that suicide passive is plain stupid, Im sorry all of this is pretty bad overall.

also this is so overly complicated, why go through all this hassle you create when with Saryn I can just kill everything instantaneously with two buttons? giving her more shield wont solve her survivalist problem are you serious? im glad this is just a mad man ramble.

Edited May 5, 2019 by -NightmareMoon-

[Violet_Xe]

38 minutes ago, -NightmareMoon- said:

I hope you have fun writing that wall of text because DE it's just going to ignore it.

also giving ember less range is not going to fixing anything, that's her actual problem dude! I think you dont understand whats her problem, the thing you don't understand is that more damage wont do anything for her, fire do not scale with enemy armor so in high level missions is useless, now you are cutting off 50% of her range, she is dead, awful ideas overall, also that suicide passive is plain stupid, Im sorry all of this is pretty bad overall.

also this is so overly complicated, why go through all this hassle you create when with Saryn I can just kill everything instantaneously with two buttons? giving her more shield wont solve her survivalist problem are you serious? im glad this is just a mad man ramble.

Well I wrote it out cause theres not much else to do in the game so why not throw some ideas at DE. and even if they ignore it it's fine by me.
As for nerfing her range, I didn't do that.I actually made it from 15 at max rank *unmodded* to 18 *unmodded*. That increases her baseline range and while yes her range still get's halved I solve that issue while coming to a compromise. by sitting within a Fire Blast for about 4 seconds, Ember gets her range back on the ult and then it decays slowly again. So she has ways to increase her range. Her range already shrinks down to half as is so what i'm doing is giving her more, not less.

Also her problem, atleast to many youtubers and my friends, is that she cannot do damage and has issues surviving. Originally she had survivability in the form of Firequake, but that was before DE cut her ult range in half. So the present ember cannot survive very well. So what embers do now is sacrifice damage for range so that firequake is still somewhat effective.

Yes fire doesn't fit well with normal enemy types like corpus and shields, however it IS a status effect. I said that she will focus on spreading heat damage for condition overload. She's also undoubtedly a good warframe for infested as it's fire. I wanted to raise her damage to start with, but also have her be a status frame. She deals damage through mods like condition overload. That's how she becomes viable for high level missions. As it states in WoF everything within the radius is always on ignited and with a firequake you have blast aswell. A free 120% extra melee damage. 

To answer your question why ember over saryn, yeah saryn is def still a better frame but... you could say that about literally any warframe. Saryn is queen of the game right now and honestly requires a bit of a nerf to be honest. If I were to give you a legitimite reason why this would make you play over saryn is both fun and being very different from other frames. I'm only trying to bring a fairly poor warframe into a better spot. And it's actually alot simpler than it looks. You can get the most out of it if you're smart but you don't need to be super intelligent to get everything from it.

always stay above 60% overheat to ignite yourself
try to stay below 100% in order to not kill yourself with fire
Higher overheat = more damage for abilities

You also misunderstand what the shield's purpose is. Shields were buffed for this version to deal with her continues overheating and self damage. Shields cannot regenerate normally so what you would do is build shields and place arcanes and a few mods on so that it won't burn into your health. Think of it as a fuel source rather than defenses. Her primary form of survivability comes from firequake once more and also staying inside the Fire Blast ring. Combine that with stuff like quick thinking or an arcane guardian, and you can sit infront of a high lvl enemy for a long time without even trying to cc an enemy.Even more sustain would come from if you used 100% overheat efficently to balance self damage while maintaining the 30% overheat damage reduction. Overall for a power str Ember, you can have 70% damage reduction just through abilities. that's more than enough with her CC to survive. but only if you play her right. 

Lastly the suicide was a last measure aside from self damage to prevent you from using WoF too often. I want you to reset WoF to regen shields, to prevent Meltdown, and to gather up energy. That way it's not 100% a set and forget ability like DE wants it to be.

This build has literally only buffed her, Unless I'm blanking on something important. Please honestly i'd like to know where I went wrong if I did so i don't make mistakes like that in the future. IMO I feel like I may have made her a bit too good at getting energy, but that's me. 

[Pooroldude]

Interesting read. I'm all for adding resource management to add tension to the combat.

I wouldn't mind "heat" as resource that gets increased by any conditions with fire, such as using fireball to gain heat and killing enemies with fire weapons etc.

[Violet_Xe]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

These are some interesting and well thought out suggestions to be sure.

That being said, I'm of the opinion that World on Fire ought to be a shock-wave type attack, a burst of super-heated air rushing out in all directions that ignites everything in its path, inflicting a guaranteed Heat proc. Yes, WoF ought to be fueled by her other abilities, in that those abilities generate an Overheat charge every time they're used. World on Fire then uses that Overheat, with each burst of WoF consuming a certain amount of Overheat charge. Think of WoF as a lethal means of expelling stored up heat / energy.

This encourages players to use other abilities and turns WoF into something more tactical and less "set it and forget it".

I don't think that would work very well, but it could. I like the idea of a charge based concept however that would feel more like an ultimate of garuda's blood ball or a smaller version of equinox main right? you charge up the ult by some damaging source in order to increase it's damage, and then unleash it all in a controlled area. You would also have to be pretty quick on killing with with the melee weapons unless the burn duration is really long.

And yeah I did think of WoF being a way to expel heat, but at the same time if it was expelling heat the only way to generate overheat would be really slowly ingiting yourself or spamming accelerant. it just wouldn't work out I think. It might but I don't think it would, can't tell without actually getting my hands the real thing. but i'm not a DE staff so 😄

But I don't feel like consuming the overheat would be the right way to go, like blowing it all at once. The idea is to generate overheat with WoF to boost WoF but also make people disable it after a certain point due to either energy consumption, self damage, or meltdown. I like the idea of a battery overheat more than a charge system. Interesting though I may try to add that to a different rework. thanks 🙂

[(XBOX)Crown5775]

17 hours ago, (XB1)TechnicCrown349 said:

Ember should get a rework to her passive and some buffs to her abilities

Passive: Ignition

When u receive a heat proc u recover 10 energy per sec and receive 35% power strength boost for as long as it on fire

This I quite hard to get unless u go out of ur way to waste a primary or secondary slot to set urself on fire

I propose there should be an overheat system so the more ember uses her abilities the hotter she gets at a certain level or temperature she receives the buffs ,from the current passive. So let's say a percentage is added each time an ability is used or is active. World on fire, would have a cap so u can't just have that active to receive the buffs

Each ability will give a specific amount however there be a cap on each ability as to stop the spamming of one ability to get the buff.

Fireball

Should scale with secondary mods but have a low base damage to stop it from being to strong. It should also be able to form elemental damage types that have heat as one of the components maybe this could be done by energy colour.

Accelerant

Some enemies can't be debuffed so it'd be nice if it was a buff to heat damage done by you. Otherwise a great ability

Fire Blast

Fire blast should move around with you because of the nature of this game you are barely stood still.

World on fire

The overheat mechanic is more of a hassle so rarely will players allow it to get to full before recasting because of this I think it should be rewarded by damage reduction as u overheat ember gains damage reduction up to a maximum of 50% unmodded ,90% with some power strength , at max overheat

Thank u for reading

 

 

This is my idea for a rework

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

TL;DR 

Ember is currently complete cheeks and needs a complete rework including her awful passive and the pathetic state of flame damage. 

[Violet_Xe]

2 hours ago, (XB1)TechnicCrown349 said:

This is my idea for a rework

 

Personally I don't feel like your version fixes the issue in terms of damage, but she becomes a tank. That I think is the flaw, ember was released as a dps frame, she's meant to deal damage not take it. But you do have some interesting ideas so i'll see if I can mix them in because there are some good suggestions.

A modifiable fireball would be really cool 😄 However the idea of creating different elemental combos is a bit weird for ember. She is a fire frame and should honestly stay that way, so if it were to become modifiable then it should only be able to use secondary and fire status mods. yes fire is terrible but then ember wouldn't be ember. however if it became moddable I don't think it should scale much with an overheat mechanic due to it being too powerful.

The passive I do feel needs to take a hit. the entire reason why DE gave ember such a massive power spike while on fire is because it's difficult to achieve. so by making her catch fire by default her massive needs to be cut down a bit so it's not overpowering. If you think about it it would be 10 energy a second for simply taking 2 fire dps at 60%. again this IS if we go with overheat which kinda becomes the core part to how ember functions.

Also if ember were to get scaling damage reduction with my overheat concept, then it would have to be 20 to 50 which actually might honestly be better but that will depend on the player. the reason why I placed 50% at the end is to entice players to go for 100% overheat or think about fire blast as a way to survive. But she isn't a tank and isn't sold as one. She should have some suitability and that's it. We can't make her too good at everything so 90% seems a bit too powerful for her.
However! if you're thinking with arcanes and mods, her survivability is solved with some parts to my rework. specifically the increase to shields allows for shield recharging augments and if you want to be on overheat, adaptation turns 100% overheat self damage to 1 damage while also protecting against enemy damage. Arcanes can fill in the gaps. That's where her suitability should come from if anywhere. If you want a frame to have something they're not meant to have you need to put alot of work into them and not have it baked into their base kit. for example at the moment ember can take a serious about of damage with healing return builds with adaptation built in.

Fireblast really shouldn't move with you as cool as that would be. the reason why is that the most it would do is burn some enemies when overheat would do the same thing. Sure the fireball and fire blast interaction would always be there then but If it moves with you then the issue of WoF range and damage reduction are suddenly back. The issue DE saw for ember was she was too good at clearing low levels *A stupid reason but oh well* so to change that we need her to stand still a bit more if she wants that range back. Also the fire blast being stationary if it was given the 10% damage reduction would not only be helping her, but teammates and defense points. she gives it that little bit more defense. Think of the stationary fire blast like a leash. 

The overheat is meant to be a hassle yeah, I don't want people to abuse it and get to 100% without really thinking about what they're doing. That's why there's overheat, longer periods of drain, and more damage being dealt. Overheat not only affects WoF damage, but fireball as well which means that it can scale slightly and deal more damage. If it were modifiable then that would make it even more viable.
Since the main ember builds will probably be duration and strength, the damage reduction from overheat and flame blast would allow you to have 60-70% damage reduction depending on if we use 20 to 50 scaling or 30 and 60 modded at max. Combine that with increased range to WoF if you're inside of a flame blast, and you won't be taking much damage at all. She's got cc and damage, while also having damage reduction.

Effectively overheat is meant to be both a way to empower ember's abilities and supply her with energy, while also keeping build variety and keep you on high alert. if you get careless you get burned up and lets face it us players try to min max everything. The players that would really enjoy the rework will pay reeeal close attention to what they want to do and when, and learn how to use even meltdown without dieing. I kinda want it to allow for build variety, a leash, and empowering the character. It is a hassle yes and it comes with it's down, but with proper control, you can have some real fun with it. As fire is in real life, don't play with it, but if you do do it carefully.

I may have missed something so sorry if I did. i'm in a bit of a hurry atm.

[Violet_Xe]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

TL;DR 

Ember is currently complete cheeks and needs a complete rework including her awful passive and the pathetic state of flame damage. 

I 100% agree with you there, fire does need something to make it viable to the primary factions. Infested is fine but it just won't work vs grineer or corpus. However I really suggest you take a look at my ember rework concept. Who knows we may find a way to fix fire damage in the process :). It would also help to get feedback so when I make other rework concepts I don't make the same mistakes again. Even if i'm wrong in certain areas it's still worth a read.

it is almost a "complete" rework. no new abilities, but the way the abilities would function and interact make her alot more fun, complex, and have a larger build variety. I think she could be viable for up to lvl 100ish content with these abilities and even more if you use the right weapons. The warframe shouldn't be doing all the damage, correctly modded weapons also help a lot.

Anyways in the meantime i'll try to think of a way to make heat damage viable. not to corpus obviously but maybe to grineer. 

[(XBOX)Crown5775]

2 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

😄fireblast really shouldn't move with you as cool as that would be. the reason why is that it would burn some enemies when overheat would do the same thing. Sure the fireball and fire blast interaction would always be there then but If it moves with you then the issue of WoF range and damage reduction are suddenly back. The issue DE saw for ember was she was too good at clearing low levels *A stupid reason but oh well* so to change that we need her to stand still a bit more if she wants that range back. Also the fire blast being stationary if it was given the 10% damage reduction would not only be helping her, but teammates and defense points. she gives it that little bit more defense. Think of the stationary fire blast like a leash. 

 

The reason was that so ur weapons would always do fire damage as long it is active I mean a buff to range would mean you'd have a larger area to move which would do the same thing

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

3 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

I 100% agree with you there, fire does need something to make it viable to the primary factions. Infested is fine but it just won't work vs grineer or corpus. However I really suggest you take a look at my ember rework concept. Who knows we may find a way to fix fire damage in the process :). It would also help to get feedback so when I make other rework concepts I don't make the same mistakes again. Even if i'm wrong in certain areas it's still worth a read.

it is almost a "complete" rework. no new abilities, but the way the abilities would function and interact make her alot more fun, complex, and have a larger build variety. I think she could be viable for up to lvl 100ish content with these abilities and even more if you use the right weapons. The warframe shouldn't be doing all the damage, correctly modded weapons also help a lot.

Anyways in the meantime i'll try to think of a way to make heat damage viable. not to corpus obviously but maybe to grineer. 

Trust me I agree, there are some good ideas here.  The problem is getting DE to get past Vauban and Wukong and pay attention to Ember.

[Violet_Xe]

1 hour ago, (XB1)TechnicCrown349 said:

The reason was that so ur weapons would always do fire damage as long it is active I mean a buff to range would mean you'd have a larger area to move which would do the same thing

Yeah that would be another reason not to have it carried with you. At first glance that seems like it would be a really great addition, however. If fireblast were to move with you *I assume you're talking about fireblast. If all of your weapons now also have fire damage to compete with, it would interfere with weapons trying to do other status procs. If you want to deal corrosive i won't work because you're always surrounded by the flames. Sure it deals more damage overall, but it will suffer against proto shields more making her worse vs corpus and also make corrosive, radiation, and other weapons less effective. It would be more annoying and mess with status builds than helpful.

Again this depends on the player, alot of people would enjoy this change, however others would dislike it. And if we suggest that the flame blast can be picked up and dropped like volt's shield then she would feel more like volt AND that we would need to nerf something because you give her another buff to counter her increased flexibility. It's a good idea but that's something we can't really confirm with 100% certainty without teseting. But IMO i'd rather have it as static placement.

[(XBOX)Crown5775]

I think fire blast would be better if it just buff the user's fire damage does no damage to enemies itself and other players can't receive the buff without an augment. It could also be a toggle duration ability it could be a hindrance with certain weapons but for pure elemental weapons or condition overload melees it would be good.

[Violet_Xe]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Trust me I agree, there are some good ideas here.  The problem is getting DE to get past Vauban and Wukong and pay attention to Ember.

I'm pretty sure vauban's "in the works" so expect him in a year, as for wukong I doubt they've got any clue what to do with him... He's my next target. 

Also how would you feel about this to sort of buff heat damage. Every consecutive fire tick adds more to the fire damage multiplier? meaning the more an enemy is of fire the more damage they'll take from the next fire tick/damage. It should also get a buff to lets say 25% extra vs alloy and/or ferrite armor. the reason I suggest this is because think of it as cooking an enemy inside their armor. makes some sense right? It's still not up to par with say slash and toxin, but It at least gives it that small little boost of viability but i'm not 100% sure.

[Blatantfool]

Hot take: Ember would be better if her skills traded doing Fire status procs for doing a unique type of Fire proc unique to her skills that had superior scalability to make up for the limited reach of the Heat element against the different factions. In fact, Ember's unique Fire proc should replace ALL fire procs on weapons she uses. She's the master of Fire. It should give her far better returns.

Hotter take: She doesn't need a completely new kit. Her kit just needs a new lease on life.

• 1 now lobs an incendiary bomb sort of projectile instead of a straight line shot. This is a flavor change that'd feel good.
• 2 stays the same.
• 3 ought to look more like a whirling fire. Moreover, let Ember hold it to cast a version that burns out quicker but moves in a line in the direction she casts. Again, a flavor change with big implications. An entire new avenue for the skills use.
• 4 remains the same.

 I pretty firmly believe the REAL problem with Ember is not just in dated feel of her kit - it's the heat damage. Even with her very powerful heat damage amplification heat damage itself will inevitably get chipped away until you're just in it for the CC of igniting a foe. You would make up for a ton of lost ground if her interaction with the element was unique. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Blatantfool

[Violet_Xe]

3 minutes ago, Blatantfool said:

Hot take: Ember would be better if her skills traded doing Fire status procs for doing a unique type of Fire proc unique to her skills that had superior scalability to make up for the limited reach of the Heat element against the different factions. In fact, Ember's unique Fire proc should replace ALL fire procs on weapons she uses. She's the master of Fire. It should give her far better returns.

My first thought upon seeing this was like, naaaaah I don't think DE would go as far as adding a new status type into the game JUST for Ember... then I remembered they make an archwing system for a warframe that works in normal missions... Yeah that does sound really effective. Maybe like "Arson Damage" or "Phoenix Damage"? 

The only possible issue I see with this is that fans of other status frames like Volt, Saryn, Frost, Mag, and Oberon would all kinda demand the same treatment. But if we got something like that it'd be really cool and make her even more unique.

[Blatantfool]

8 minutes ago, Violet_Xe said:

My first thought upon seeing this was like, naaaaah I don't think DE would go as far as adding a new status type into the game JUST for Ember... then I remembered they make an archwing system for a warframe that works in normal missions... Yeah that does sound really effective. Maybe like "Arson Damage" or "Phoenix Damage"? 

The only possible issue I see with this is that fans of other status frames like Volt, Saryn, Frost, Mag, and Oberon would all kinda demand the same treatment. But if we got something like that it'd be really cool and make her even more unique.

 You could make it a callback to an older era of Warframe. Call her personal proc 'Overheat'. That is the name her oldschool skill that was removed went by.

 The idea, after that, is to take the positive traits that Heat already brings to the table and say "What takes this and makes it really scale well." The CC side of Heat isn't awful so I don't personally think that is the answer. Besides, the ugly truth of our girl is that she's supposed to be a sort of damaging caster and her chosen damage type is very hit or miss. She needs a feature that hurts.

 The lazy route would be to have the proc deal damage based on a % of some enemy statistic. For example, if Overheat did damage equal to a % of enemy armor. This means that the highest armored enemies suffer worse injury from her status, as wearing melting armor would really hurt.

 Another route would be to have Overheat burn hotter the more enemies are under the effects of it.

 Edit: Saryn DOES have a unique relationship with her damage. The entire system of scaling her toxin damage. There is a precedent for elemental frames being given gimmicks that make their relationship with their element truly shine. I think Oberon ultimately doesn't need a change of this type, it's true he rocks Radiation but he's not a "Radiation Warframe" he's a Druid/Pally frame. That aside though, Volt and Frost getting THEIR elemental ability juiced would be welcome. Warframes should be highly flavorful. You should be able to enjoy investing in what they are meat to truly be the best at.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Blatantfool

[zoffmode]

Honestly, I hate the idea of hard reworks. Just make a new frame if you want something fancy instead of ruining a frame for people who love her already.

Ember needs just one single adjustment and bam she's back to viable. There are so many things you can do without completely revamping character. It's not that it's hard, it's just DE refuses to admit they were wrong.

[Blatantfool]

4 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

Honestly, I hate the idea of hard reworks. Just make a new frame if you want something fancy instead of ruining a frame for people who love her already.

Ember needs just one single adjustment and bam she's back to viable. There are so many things you can do without completely revamping character. It's not that it's hard, it's just DE refuses to admit they were wrong.

 I don't think Ember is quite so bad she needs to be turned into a different Warframe either BUT I also think she's probably a bigger puzzle than one change.

[Violet_Xe]

4 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

Honestly, I hate the idea of hard reworks. Just make a new frame if you want something fancy instead of ruining a frame for people who love her already.

Ember needs just one single adjustment and bam she's back to viable. There are so many things you can do without completely revamping character. It's not that it's hard, it's just DE refuses to admit they were wrong.

To be honest it's not actually all that hard. The Rework i'm suggesting doesn't change much at all. If anything it's a pure buff. You can still have a simple WoF build and just never go above 60% to catch fire. even with that she get's buffs across the board and more flexibility.

The chill and relax play style still exists, but for players that want her to be complex she can be. I don't think I took anything away from her too badly to make her nerfed. if I did could you point that out please? I wanna try to make ember into a frame with different playstyles, build styles, and sides available to both new players and end game players.

[zoffmode]

4 minutes ago, Blatantfool said:

 I don't think Ember is quite so bad she needs to be turned into a different Warframe either BUT I also think she's probably a bigger puzzle than one change.

why?

Revert WoF change. Done.

Don't want to do that? Give damage reduction from WoF being on. Done. 

No rework needed.

Edited May 7, 2019 by zoffmode

[Blatantfool]

Just now, zoffmode said:

why?

Revert WoF change. Done.

Don't want to do that? Give damage reduction from WoF being on. Done. 

No rework needed.

 She's not supposed to be tanky so I think damage reduction might be out, I don't really mind if the WoF changes revert. She once was one of the best tanks you could play, back in the days where she had Overheat. They changed her. She's supposed to be spitting damage. A shame. I kinda liked tanky ember.

 But the problem that was always present even before the WoF change was that she is only ever as good at anything as Heat damage is and Heat damage can struggle in plenty of places.

 For "A Frame that burns all in her path!" sort of flavor she really never quite gets there. She's been close though. Most of the changes I'd rally for that aren't related to making her relationship with Fire damage a little more impactful revolve around the feel of skills. I'm talking more on the level of how her 1 feels like it's pretty dated compared to some other Warframe skills. I think the most drastic skill change I'd love to see I already posted above, which is just allowing you to hold-to-cast her 3 and have it move in a linear path.

[Violet_Xe]

Just now, zoffmode said:

why?

Revert WoF change. Done.

Don't want to do that? Give damage reduction from WoF being on. Done. 

No rework needed.

Well even before that, ember was already falling in popularity. Yes reverting her WoF would make her better. but the issue lies with Heat Damage in general and her survivability. Ember was already outdated before WoF and was really still only ever used for survivals. I know she can be used in other missions but now frames like Saryn have risen to glory which instantly kill enemies across the map on survivals. so her return to power would only be a return to slightly above passable rank.

And under the topic of if were going to rework a warframe or edit it, we want to make them feel new and up to date with current frames. and again it's not like i've made it impossible for the sit down and let WoF kill people style. Remember if they rework a warframe they want to make it feel different, but still the same as they were before. that way people spend time playing that frame and enjoying it rather than just passively playing it saying "oh it's back to normal, nothing new here, lets move on"

[zoffmode]

1 minute ago, Violet_Xe said:

Well even before that, ember was already falling in popularity. Yes reverting her WoF would make her better. but the issue lies with Heat Damage in general and her survivability. Ember was already outdated before WoF and was really still only ever used for survivals. I know she can be used in other missions but now frames like Saryn have risen to glory which instantly kill enemies across the map on survivals. so her return to power would only be a return to slightly above passable rank.

And under the topic of if were going to rework a warframe or edit it, we want to make them feel new and up to date with current frames. and again it's not like i've made it impossible for the sit down and let WoF kill people style. Remember if they rework a warframe they want to make it feel different, but still the same as they were before. that way people spend time playing that frame and enjoying it rather than just passively playing it saying "oh it's back to normal, nothing new here, lets move on"

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Issue with Ember is completely with nerfing of her range because her survivability was dependent on CC that World on Fire provided. Nerfing energy is also a big deal since she's now more limited in builds thanks to it, but whatever I guess. Heat damage literally has nothing to do with it. To make matters worse, the overheat on WoF completely misses the mark. It buffs damage and reduces range which is HARD NERF because even if you use mods to reach the same range, you get hard nerf on status chance Fire proc. And obviously Firequake build is much much worse now.

Seriously, if DE wanted to nerf Ember's frustration in low levels to her team they could've just made WoF be LINE OF SIGHT. Which, actually, would've been a huge buff to her in higher level missions since her CC would be more reliable.

 

Seriously, the problems with Ember are all very simple. It's not freaking fire issue at all.