Wisp and why I don't like the current way of designing new Warframes.

[Mover-NeRo]

I personaly like balanced frames that can do more just one button trick.

But sadly Wisps 4 feel really week. Even some unforma weapons are more effective. Its not like it cant kill stuff..its just by time you activate it and blindly aim at last know position where you saw the enemy..you can just shot them.😑

[Highresist]

5 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

So you love to nuke in the corner and let the game play for you. Thank god de doesn't listen. This game is already anti co-op. Don't make it worst.

Why is everyone focusing on the nuke frames part😄 , when I have said Gara is a very well designed frame? I don't want every Warframe to be a nuke one, I want them to specialize in one thing, so that they can thrive, instead spreading their abilities too thin to do multiple things, that other warframes are better at. It feels like people are only reading the first couple of senteces or something. Wisp will fall into an oblivion just like Baruuk, just like Garuda, just like Revenant and Khora, because they do things that specialized warframes are better at. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Highresist

[RX-3DR]

8 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Why is everyone focusing on the nuke frames part😄 , when I have said Gara is a very well designed frame? I don't want every Warframe to be a nuke one, I want them to specialize in one thing, so that they can thrive, instead spreading their abilities too think to do multiple things, that other warframes are better at. It feels like people are only reading the first couple of senteces or something.

So what is your solution to this beyond just "Make Wisp better by making her better"? The word specialization doesn't mean anything, it's too vague of a term. In fact, it is also technically possible to specialize in versatility among various fields, "specialize" is not a magical word that means something is better. The problem is you're making comparisons to the most broken scenarios and by extension, the only way to make Wisp comparable to say, Mesa and Saryn, is to give her an enemy to just instantly wipe everything in a 50 meter radius or wipe everything in LOS.

If anything, by giving choices beyond just a singular role to frames, you open up the field of specialization to the players through modding rather than force every person who uses X frame to use it in a single way.

Edited May 27, 2019 by RX-3DR

[Highresist]

2 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

The word specialization doesn't mean anything, it's too vague of a term.

Specialized Tank - Rhino. 
Specialized objective Defender - Frost
Specialized Support - Trinity
Specialized DPS - Excalibur.
Idk, what more you need to know about what I mean by a specialized Warframe.

 

3 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

If anything, by giving choices beyond just a singular role to frames, you open up the field of specialization to the players through modding rather than force every person who uses X frame to use it in a single way.

Yeah, the problem is that DE intentionally are gimping the abilities of these Warframes, because "it would be too broken to let them do everything very well", like Gara doesn't exist or something.

[Ced23Ric]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

Specialized Tank - Rhino. 
Specialized objective Defender - Frost
Specialized Support - Trinity
Specialized DPS - Excalibur.

Wisp is a specialized support, then.

[RX-3DR]

10 minutes ago, Highresist said:

Specialized Tank - Rhino. 
Specialized objective Defender - Frost
Specialized Support - Trinity
Specialized DPS - Excalibur.
Idk, what more you need to know about what I mean by a specialized Warframe.

 

Yeah, the problem is that DE intentionally are gimping the abilities of these Warframes, because "it would be too broken to let them do everything very well", like Gara doesn't exist or something.

Except for Trinity, the other 3 examples you've given are literally a singular ability serving a certain function which, many people maximize, resulting in the "specialization". If you built your Rhino for range and duration to use Rhino Stomp, are you still a "specialized tank"? Likewise, if you build Frost to strip armor with Avalanche, you're as much of a "specialized defender" as almost every other frame with a radial CC ability. What if I use Excalibur Umbra with an explosive weapon for the fire support on my Operator, am I still DPS?

Wisp is not so much gimped because even if you can't compare Motes to Trinity in terms of some vague value of support, she still does different things and she does them differently. You're comparing her to Mesa's Peacemaker, Saryn's Miasma and Trinity's Blessing all at the same time. If you want to gimp a Warframe extremely hard, make it revolve around tanking, but make him less effective than Rhino's Iron Skin and you will have a really gimped frame because the primary role is being outclassed by a single ability while being able to offer nothing else.

[Highresist]

Just now, Ced23Ric said:

Wisp is a specialized support, then.

In that case, she is a worse Trinity for healing, worse Oberon for debuffing and worse Octavia for buffing. Because she does all 3 things, they are strictly worse, because this is how DE deals with Warframes that do multiple stuff - they make them weaker for some godly unknow reason and leave them to rot. 
 

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, Ced23Ric said:

Trinity is a better healer, but offers no CC or DPS increase to the team.
Oberon is a (minimally) worse healer / better defensive buff, but offers no CC or DPS increase to the team.
Wisp heals slightly better than Oberon without pinning the team to an area, increases DPS and offers CC the team can carry around.

How is she objectively worse when she matches Oberon in healing and eclipses both in DPS and transportable CC of which neither pins the team to a specific location, other than for refreshing (at no additional energy cost) at the leisure of each squadmate?

Actually in Oberon's case it highly depends on the team. If you run a pre-made with CP he wont add much more than healing/defense, but if you run a regular group he will be your dedicated armor stripper. I mean he does the job better than any other armor strip frame. At the same he will be a very valueble CC with the same skill. I mean he slams them twice over and renders them without armor.

And regarding Hildryn. she is a better Inaros versus anything but infested. People that have trouble with her sustain simply play her very poorly. The whole thing with her is to always have pillage "active", so when you do drop in shields the "wave" is on the way back to put you back at maxed OS. The only thing that really gets her in a sticky spot is if she gets knocked down, the reason why you simply slap sure footed on her aswell as building for negative duration. Negative duration means that pillage cover just enough area and travels back quickly, leading to less "over healing" and wasted sustain.

3 hours ago, Highresist said:

She heals in a very gimicky way with statick jars on the ground and as far as I have seen, she doesn't heal objectives - Arbitration and Sorty defence. Also Phoenix Renewal is invaluable.  

Sounds like you have zero knowledge about Wisp. I havent even played her yet and I already know how her motes work, it took me a whole ten seconds to figure it out when I ended up with a Wisp in a mission. Also, Obe doesnt heal objectives anymore, unless it is a client issue only. Also, Phoenix Renewal is for plebs that cannot stay alive to begin with. I stopped using mine because I survive perfectly fine with my Oberon, so people that have my buffs should survive just as fine, otherwise it is their problem.

[Highresist]

2 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Wisp is not so much gimped because even if you can't compare Motes to Trinity in terms of some vague value of support, she still does different things and she does them differently.

This is literally "keep defending bad designs and then wonder why nobody plays X Warframe". 

 

3 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

You're comparing her to Mesa's Peacemaker, Saryn's Miasma and Trinity's Blessing all at the same time.

Because Wisp has a Nuke 4, that is worse than Peacemaker, Miasma and Exalted blade and a support buff that is Worse than Blessing.

 

4 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

What if I use Excalibur Umbra with an explosive weapon for the fire support on my Operator, am I still DPS?

You are just being silly. It's like me  Frost for max range Globes with 40% power strenght and augment against infested excavation - it works, but it is way worse than just playing Limbo or Nova.

 

6 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Rhino's Iron Skin and you will have a really gimped frame because the primary role is being outclassed by a single ability while being able to offer nothing else.

Rhino still offercs CC and damage buff for the entire party, what are you even on about?  

[CodeUltimate]

The problem is DE is choosing form over function and considering this game is full of the ''OMG PRAISE tHE SUN xddddd'' type of person then it doesn't surprise me we ended up with a useless ability that just takes away from a great frame such as wisp. It would have been so much better if we have gotten a damage booster or armor stripping ability instead of the S#&$ty sol gate we got. 8v

[Mez999]

8 minutes ago, Highresist said:

In that case, she is a worse Trinity for healing, worse Oberon for debuffing and worse Octavia for buffing. Because she does all 3 things, they are strictly worse, because this is how DE deals with Warframes that do multiple stuff - they make them weaker for some godly unknow reason and leave them to rot. 
 

The logic here is so flawed it’s difficult to know where to start. 

Let’s ignore facts and focus on what you said. You are listing frames that do a specific job in one situation. Let’s say I’m happy to sacrifice some healing in return for squad wide cc and squad wide buffing through speed increases. Do the frames listed provide me with that option? 

No - Wisp does. 

I want a frame where I have to think, that’ll provide challenge and clever synergies. I don’t want a “press x to win” frame. It’s the reason why I’m really enjoying Harrow at the moment. 

Wisp is a support frame that provides multiple areas of support to the team to increase survivability through health, cc and increases DPS. If used correctly, will also strip armour and allows for distraction and teleport. 

I’d suggest going back to Wisp and playing more to understand the mechanics and then see what you think. 

[RX-3DR]

11 minutes ago, Highresist said:

This is literally "keep defending bad designs and then wonder why nobody plays X Warframe". 

 

Because Wisp has a Nuke 4, that is worse than Peacemaker, Miasma and Exalted blade and a support buff that is Worse than Blessing.

 

You are just being silly. It's like me  Frost for max range Globes with 40% power strenght and augment against infested excavation - it works, but it is way worse than just playing Limbo or Nova.

 

Rhino still offercs CC and damage buff for the entire party, what are you even on about?  

Next time I run a mission, I'm going to use my Metribertavia instead of Wisp so I can nuke better and support better. You can't just make these type of nonsensical comparisons and pretend it's a legitimate point. You're comparing a single frame to various abilities spread over multiple frames and getting upset that Wisp cannot compete against a full squad.

Are you even reading what I'm typing? Specialization is the best way to completely gimp a frame because if you specialize it to a very singular role and it falls short because the meta is still ahead of it, you would have created a complete downgrade. The only way to make a new "DPS specialization", is to power creep against Mesa or Saryn. You're supporting my point that Rhino is not a specialized tank and it's just that Iron Skin is perhaps too good at soaking up damage. This is exactly what Wisp is and you're not complaining about how Rhino is gimped because he doesn't have Iron Skin, Ironer Skin, and Ironest Skin to specialize in tanking.

Edited May 27, 2019 by RX-3DR

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mez999 said:

The logic here is so flawed it’s difficult to know where to start. 

Let’s ignore facts and focus on what you said. You are listing frames that do a specific job in one situation. Let’s say I’m happy to sacrifice some healing in return for squad wide cc and squad wide buffing through speed increases. Do the frames listed provide me with that option? 

No - Wisp does. 

I want a frame where I have to think, that’ll provide challenge and clever synergies. I don’t want a “press x to win” frame. It’s the reason why I’m really enjoying Harrow at the moment. 

Wisp is a support frame that provides multiple areas of support to the team to increase survivability through health, cc and increases DPS. If used correctly, will also strip armour and allows for distraction and teleport. 

I’d suggest going back to Wisp and playing more to understand the mechanics and then see what you think. 

Don't lie to yourself, Wisp is actually a press X to win frame.

Press 1 for tankiness, speed and some CC.

Press 2 to cheese Spy and get invincibility.

Press 3 to blind.

Press 4 for damage.

You can try to make her sound complex but Wisp natively just isn't. It's just players who are lazy, really. She is nice to use, but she is not hard to pick up and her synergies are quite straightforward/unecessary.

[Highresist]

Just now, Mez999 said:

Let’s say I’m happy to sacrifice some healing in return for squad wide cc and squad wide buffing through speed increases. Do the frames listed provide me with that option? 

Yes, Oberon provides decent CC and Octavia provides squad wide buffing that is far surperior than anything Wisp does. Also her cc is very narrow to even use it as an argument and it is exactly what I'm trying to say. Wisp has weak abilities because they are supposed to do "everything" and it is why I do not like the current way new Warframes are designed. Because Wisp sacrifices "X" value for another thing, she spreads herself too think rather than specializing in one area and having some bits in others.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

Yes, Oberon provides decent CC and Octavia provides squad wide buffing that is far surperior than anything Wisp does. Also her cc is very narrow to even use it as an argument and it is exactly what I'm trying to say. Wisp has weak abilities because they are supposed to do "everything" and it is why I do not like the current way new Warframes are designed. Because Wisp sacrifices "X" value for another thing, she spreads herself too think rather than specializing in one area and having some bits in others.

 

To be fair to Wisp, Octavia's buffs are annoying to get, while Wisp's isn't.

[Highresist]

14 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

You're comparing a single frame to various abilities spread over multiple frames and getting upset that Wisp cannot compete against a full squad.

Exactly. Because she is supposed to do everything the others do, but in one frame, they are gimped. Literal jack of all traits, master of none. I will give you another very very strong Warframe, that people pretend it doesn't exist - Ivara. She has bad CC, bad support abilities, the worst stealth and yet, everyone rank her as one of the best Warframes. Why is that? Because she specializes in DPS and has the rest of her kit revolved around that, rather than spreading herself equially in every direction. You can use her for a lot of gimick stuff, but when she is needed to clear a room, she does it with such viciousness, Valkyr becomes jelly.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Highresist

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, Highresist said:

Exactly. Because she is supposed to do everything the others do, but in one frame, they are gimped. Literal jack of all traits, master of none. I will give you another very very strong Warframe, that people pretend it doesn't exist - Ivara. She has bad CC, bad support abilities, the worst stealth and yet, everyone rank her as one of the best Warframes. Why is that? Because she specializes in DPS and has the rest of her kit revolved around that, rather than spreading herself equially in every direction.

So every frame must have a single outlier ability that must be absolutely broken(and more broken than the previous iteration) and the other 3 abilities can be whatever? Is that really what you're calling good design?

Once again, going back to my initial question, how would you "fix" Wisp then?

[Highresist]

1 minute ago, moostar95 said:

lvara, worst stealth? I'm sleeping now. 

Can't use bulet jump, can't use sprint, can't even use your weapon, if it is not silenced. 

[Guest]

Just now, moostar95 said:

lvara, worst stealth? I'm sleeping now. 

That technically belongs to Loki's unaugmented invis actually. Loki's base invis is actually the worst of the bunch given that it locks you in an animation and has a longer cast time than Ash's. The energy per second invis is actually the same for both.

Hushed invisibility is the band aid that actually makes it valuable. 

[Highresist]

7 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

So every frame must have a single outlier ability that must be absolutely broken(and more broken than the previous iteration) and the other 3 abilities can be whatever? Is that really what you're calling good design?

Once again, going back to my initial question, how would you "fix" Wisp then?

Pretty much. By removing her useless 4 and giving her another buff ability, if she is indeed supposed to be a support frame. Make her CC larger, because Equinox is laughing at her. And making her jars of piss an aura, but that is just a personal dislike to the ability.
Or if you want to maker her a Nuke DPS frame - keep her blind and teleport, remove the jars and give her a defencive ability and buff the hell out of her sun beam. There is no point of keeping damage in check, when Excalibur can slice for 50k white attacks.

I am sorry, but the fact is - Jack of all traits Warframes are left largely unplayed by the playerbase, despite the defence coming from the community. And I'm voicing a problem that DE basically powercreeped themselves in. In attempts to make the new warframes interesting to play, they are just left to gather dust, because they do not meet the bar set by the older ones. It took Khora 4 consecutive buffs to make her viable and she is still in a wierd place, where she can defend objectives only against 1 faction, provide laughable healing and having mediocre damage.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Highresist

[Ced23Ric]

9 minutes ago, Highresist said:

And making her jars of piss an aura, but that is just a personal dislike to the ability.

Why are you so hellbent on making sure people think you don't understand how a frame works, or why her reservoirs are way stronger than an aura or a temporary buff?

[CodeUltimate]

Just now, Ced23Ric said:

Why are you so hellbent on making sure people think you don't understand how a frame works, or why her reservoirs are way stronger than an aura or a temporary buff?

the only skill DE should change is her 4 and then she would be a top tier frame

[0_The_F00l]

I would first and foremost like to say that I do not like wisps 4, it does not suit her thematically and I dislike flashy abilities just for the sake of being flashy and having low application. I dislike her 1 too (thematically) but it is pretty potent and useful. 

But I am not in agreement with OP for most of what he has said. 

Let's just point some things. 

Argument made by OP:

1) Wisps 4 is not better DPS than the best damage ability in game. 

Is it true? Yes. 

Is it true only for wisp? No

Are there frames with worse damage abilities? Yes

2) her healing is not better than the best healer in the game. 

Is it true? Debatable - are you within trinities affinity range? 

Is it true only for wisp? No

Are there frames with worse healing than wisp? Yes. 

 

Is it fair to compare only specific aspects of multiple frames that are their best features with something else? No. 

Being versatile is not a drawback, neither is being specialized in any one aspect.

You personally may dislike it for your playstyle, but it does not make the frame itself bad. 

[(PSN)Departure2808]

You obviously haven't even built her or used her enough if you think she is obselete... She's an amazing frame. 

[Atekron]

4 hours ago, Ced23Ric said:

Wisp more or less permanently doubles the burst potential of everyone, while keeping them healed and in most cases doubling their EHP. She provides consistent CC, and she has mobility. As a clear support frame, she's not much of a damage dealer. And if you want to build her as a tank, 1900hp, 450 armor, 100 hp/s heals, Adaptation, and Bob's your uncle. Her force multiplier factor is huge.

She's just not a press 4 to win frame.

Hildryn, on the other hand, is a worse Inaros. She can do some funny things, but she can't do it as well as Inaros/Rhino, because her status immunity relies on overshields.

If anything, I feel like Hildryn rates below Wisp in overall power ranking.

well, I would say for thematic reason her 4 should at least blind enemies