Melee 3.0 Will you finally stop the evil power that is Condition Overload?

[Albion_Vortigern]

On 2019-07-24 at 10:56 PM, Midas said:

In all seriousness Melee dominates damage dealing in Warframe right now and posses a threat to primaries and secondaries significantly in future content.

congratulations you unlocked "scaling damage" it's this mechanic that lets you kill any level because it "scales" your caveman stick as a trade off to safely firing your gun and doing the same thing with this other scaling mod called "hunter munitions"

[Midas]

12 minutes ago, Fast_Pickle said:

congratulations you unlocked "scaling damage" it's this mechanic that lets you kill any level because it "scales" your caveman stick as a trade off to safely firing your gun and doing the same thing with this other scaling mod called "hunter munitions"

wrong, condition overload is an exponential multiplier per status effect... Its far different than a simple hunter munitions.

[Xolgys]

Am 25.7.2019 um 05:56 schrieb Midas:

1.6 billion damage on a level 2000 target... Stop this madness!

In all seriousness Melee dominates damage dealing in Warframe right now and posses a threat to primaries and secondaries significantly in future content.

u blame condition overload when there is much more going on than condition overload alone. doesnt sound fair to me to use a setup of 3 people with multiple things working hand in hand and then just blaming one part of it. if anything the way bloodrush works with slide crit is probably much more broken on its own than condition overload will ever be, especially considering u can basically make that work on any melee with just 2 mods. do that with the right weapon with the right frame and i think we all know what damage numbers this will produce. considering how easy it is to build that its far more broken since condition overload is not that flexible in terms of weapons, even with weeping wounds u need more than just 2 mods on whichever weapon u want to get great results. i mean just compare that to a setup that makes use of ash's bladestorm...that build does a whole lot alone but the slash procc numbers are on a totally different level with a team setup build for it and in the end u cant say ash is silly broken when at least 2 people supported him to produce named results...

Am 25.7.2019 um 07:44 schrieb (XB1)Muttz v2:

That screenshot was taken at 194 minutes in. Obviously the melee user is not a noob, or anyone else there either. These people know what there doing.

To call for a nurf that will affect everyone based on how a limited few can build is selfish and stupid. This is a PvE game, you choose what weapon to use, how you build it and who you play with. Wanting to mess up the melee builds of hundreds if not thousands of other players is not how you play nicely with others. 

As far as melee being a threat to other weapons in some "future content" that doesn't exist yet... I have great faith that melee3.0 will mess up melee a fair bit and DE are quite capable of inventing overpowered primaries, secondaries and mods to keep them viable if that is what your worried about. 

But quite frankly chap, over 3 hours in a fisure mission in the void? Your talking about nurfing the weapons of people that wont go past wave ten on hydron, which seems to be 90% of randoms. If you want a game built around you and your 3 mates in that mission try getting DE to come up with some kinda end game that isn't cosmetics, rather than tryin to spoil everyone else's fun.

agree. using some more or less specific setups and then screaming for a nerf of just one part of the whole setup is not really a fair way to try and balance things out, especially when its based on content most people dont play and aside of that in a game which is 99,99% PvE.

[Midas]

12 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

u blame condition overload when there is much more going on than condition overload alone. doesnt sound fair to me to use a setup of 3 people with multiple things working hand in hand and then just blaming one part of it. if anything the way bloodrush works with slide crit is probably much more broken on its own than condition overload will ever be, especially considering u can basically make that work on any melee with just 2 mods. do that with the right weapon with the right frame and i think we all know what damage numbers this will produce. considering how easy it is to build that its far more broken since condition overload is not that flexible in terms of weapons, even with weeping wounds u need more than just 2 mods on whichever weapon u want to get great results. i mean just compare that to a setup that makes use of ash's bladestorm...that build does a whole lot alone but the slash procc numbers are on a totally different level with a team setup build for it and in the end u cant say ash is silly broken when at least 2 people supported him to produce named results...

agree. using some more or less specific setups and then screaming for a nerf of just one part of the whole setup is not really a fair way to try and balance things out, especially when its based on content most people dont play and aside of that in a game which is 99,99% PvE.

Condition overload is a good start, there is much more (warframe buffs next and abilities that should be rebalanced out). But CO is a great starting point to fix.

There are many frame setups that can reach easily over 50 million - 1 billion damage.

Example of full gas faction status redeemer... (No relic buff either)

This is a entirely seperate example of core mechanics being tossed out the window for warframe.

If this continues the game will be "too easy" and people are just going to leave. I know its fun being a damage monkey but its completely out of control.

The method used to reach that also did not take very long...

The argument against this would be "Oh the frame won't make it to those levels"

Garuda can sustain very very long in endurance runs if you know what you are doing.

The fact DE refuses to implemented level 200 missions makes this damage unnecessary. I'd appreciate level 200-400 enemies that require smart setups and corresponding team work because my clan would love that. It is simply not going to happen because our community has a small percentage of mindless endurance runs with little to no reward.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Midas

[Xolgys]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Midas:

Condition overload is a good start, there is much more (warframe buffs next and abilities that should be rebalanced out). But CO is a great starting point to fix.

There are many frame setups that can reach easily over 50 million - 1 billion damage.

and ? whats the point ? 99% of players dont play content where numbers 1% of that damage actually matter. its a PvE game ! theres no point balancing things out around certain combinations when 99,99% of the players hardly ever use them. in the end u will nerf things for nearly all players and for them the mods will look absolutely weak because they know nothing of the silly combination u could do and they dont have to if they dont want to. they should have mods which work for their level of gameplay, the average players gameplay and thats what mods should be balanced around. warframe is not competitive and it would be different if it was, but there is no competition in warframe, neither in rivens nor in endurance running so balancing based on the majority's average gameplay is the only right choice. otherwise some mods will just be dead for nearly everyone except very few who know the "nieche" ways to make them silly for content which, compared to the average, hardly anyone plays and has to play.

enjoy the combinations u know and if u think its too strong and no challenge just dont use them but nerfing based on such a nieche situation is not a solution. the real solution would be content which requires more than dancing around invinc frames/periods and resistances of enemies whilst dodging lethal damage they will deliver with a sneeze after some point and thats hardly an issue related with CO or any other singular mod, thats a content "issue" in the end. we've just grown so powerful as players whilst enemies didnt really follow suit so the content that was more difficult in the early stages of warframe is now not even mentionable anymore. just look at how easily we can regenerate health/energy now, to name a totally underrated fact.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Fast_Pickle:

congratulations you unlocked "scaling damage" it's this mechanic that lets you kill any level because it "scales" your caveman stick as a trade off to safely firing your gun and doing the same thing with this other scaling mod called "hunter munitions"

sorry but hunter munitions/slash proccs dont even compare to the math behind condition overload and/or bloodrush, especially with slide cc. slash proccs are strong but hunter munitions is pointless when a weapon doesnt deal enough base damage innately. viral can support/solve that problem to a certain extend but other than warframe buffs helping out there is no direct scaling unless its tied to a sniper, since they have combo counter.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Xydeth

[Midas]

8 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

and ? whats the point ? 99% of players dont play content where numbers 1% of that damage actually matter. its a PvE game ! theres no point balancing things out around certain combinations when 99,99% of the players hardly ever use them. in the end u will nerf things for nearly all players and for them the mods will look absolutely weak because they know nothing of the silly combination u could do and they dont have to if they dont want to. they should have mods which work for their level of gameplay, the average players gameplay and thats what mods should be balanced around. warframe is not competitive and it would be different if it was, but there is no competition in warframe, neither in rivens nor in endurance running so balancing based on the majority's average gameplay is the only right choice. otherwise some mods will just be dead for nearly everyone except very few who know the "nieche" ways to make them silly for content which, compared to the average, hardly anyone plays and has to play.

enjoy the combinations u know and if u think its too strong and no challenge just dont use them but nerfing based on such a nieche situation is not a solution. the real solution would be content which requires more than dancing around invinc frames/periods and resistances of enemies whilst dodging lethal damage they will deliver with a sneeze after some point and thats hardly an issue related with CO or any other singular mod, thats a content "issue" in the end. we've just grown so powerful as players whilst enemies didnt really follow suit so the content that was more difficult in the early stages of warframe are now not even mentionable anymore. just look at how easy we can regenerate health/energy now, to name a totally underrated fact.

The point is future enemies will have to be shield gated to survive

Boss fights cannot have the mechanics required to eliminate them by damage alone or supporting teammates and other mechanics.

Prophet taker

Exploiter orb

and more are leaning in this direction of immunity phases, it will get way to repetitive. Ambulas alone takes 7 minutes because it wastes your time "waiting around"

You said it yourself in that statement, Warframes and weapons are simply power creeping right now.

The detrimental effects of that is impossible endgame.

I know this is frustrating, but if you know how to math in warframe chances are your team will be fine in future boss fights once melee 3.0 drops (if it changes combo and Condition Overload).

Edited August 2, 2019 by Midas

[Xolgys]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Midas:

The point is future enemies will have to be shield gated to survive

Boss fights cannot have the mechanics required to eliminate them by damage alone or supporting teammates

Prophet taker

Exploiter orb

and more are leaning in this direction of immunity phases, it will get way to repetitive.

You said it yourself in that statement, Warframes and weapons are simply power creeping right now.

The detrimental effects of that is impossible endgame.

I know this is frustrating, but if you know how to math in warframe chances are your team will be fine in future boss fights once melee 3.0 drops (if it changes combo and Condition Overload).

diversity in terms of bossfights doesnt change anything in essence. ever seen someone throw zenistar at an eidolon or orb ? its nothing difficult to make certain combinations trivial when it comes to a boss's immunities without limiting its diversity and the general fight. there are enough games where u have bossfights done right and its not that they all only rely on resistances or even invinc frames.

imagine this: a boss reflects a portion of status damage dealth to it. a boss does a specific attack when under a certain condition. a boss has different behaviour patterns to be more flexible dependant on the players setup. u can make things trivial for a bossfight technically which doesnt require u to nerf something directly so that people wont faceroll through that content. its just a matter of design in the end.

[Midas]

3 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

diversity in terms of bossfights doesnt change anything in essence. ever seen someone throw zenistar at an eidolon or orb ? its nothing difficult to make certain combinations trivial when it comes to a boss's immunities without limiting its diversity and the general fight. there are enough games where u have bossfights done right and its not that they all only rely on resistances or even invinc frames.

imagine this: a boss reflects a portion of status damage dealth to it. a boss does a specific attack when under a certain condition. a boss has different behaviour patterns to be more flexible dependant on the players setup. u can make things trivial for a bossfight technically which doesnt require u to nerf something directly so that people wont faceroll through that content. its just a matter of design in the end.

fair point, we'll see how New War fares with boss fights and duviri (probably more new player stuff anyways).

I really just don't see our devs doing that sadly.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Midas

[Xolgys]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Midas:

fair point, we'll see how New War fares with boss fights and duviri (probably more new player stuff anyways).

I really just don't see our devs doing that sadly.

yea, thats my point. DE needs to improve on bossfights which is a design matter and not a balance matter in terms of mods like CO or all of the combo/slide crit stuff. ur not alone hoping for some enjoyable bossfights.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Xydeth

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

eh, increasing base Stats doesn't make things any more interesting. i'll take the mechanically involved Mods, just uh, numbers that make some actual sense. 😛

 

I mean that's technically all Blood Rush is doing while creating a binary condition for melee which I feel is mostly negative.

Why I at least give CO some credit for creating interesting interactions. The Combo meter itself is the root problem. Least since we gained the ability to extend it beyond a quick flurry. These mods enforcing themselves as staples also removes the possibility of more involved mods as competition. Enduring Affliction and Reflex Guard come to mind though melee is admittedly a bit barren on interesting mods.

If they want to really go with this gun n blade concept as an option they should probably add more supporting mods and combat maneuvers. Would love to see melee oriented gun based finisher head-shots. Lunging stab into the chest bring them down and bullet to the head, real brutal stuff.

[AriaSTG]

I do not understand, pardon my Damage Dealing Diploma. Is the Damage to strong or otherwise?
what is this broken mechanism we need to address so that we can fix this absurd numbers?
do we need to cap every single damage types? or is it the weapon itself?

what is this trickery?

What if, we need to Cap ourselves?!

Edited August 2, 2019 by AriaSTG

[Xolgys]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Xzorn:

 

I mean that's technically all Blood Rush is doing while creating a binary condition for melee which I feel is mostly negative.

Why I at least give CO some credit for creating interesting interactions. The Combo meter itself is the root problem. Least since we gained the ability to extend it beyond a quick flurry. These mods enforcing themselves as staples also removes the possibility of more involved mods as competition. Enduring Affliction and Reflex Guard come to mind though melee is admittedly a bit barren on interesting mods.

If they want to really go with this gun n blade concept as an option they should probably add more supporting mods and combat maneuvers. Would love to see melee oriented gun based finisher head-shots. Lunging stab into the chest bring them down and bullet to the head, real brutal stuff.

agree

right now its quite "cool" to slam and then insta shoot flying enemies but this is pretty simple. if DE manages to get a kind of juggle-mechanic or generally stuff comparable to other melee focused games like the older god of war series into the game which interacts with and supports gunplay with mods giving some specific mods enhancing that then im positive melee will be very different but in a good good way. it would enhance the fast pace but DE really needs to go away from too simple mods and involve more script based things into them like some augments do.

were in 2019...simple dual stats like back when the 60/60 elementals came into the game wont cut it anymore imo.

vor 3 Minuten schrieb AriaSTG:

I do not understand, pardon my Damage Dealing Diploma. Is the Damage to strong or otherwise?
what is this broken mechanism we need to address so that we can fix this absurd numbers?
do we need to cap every single damage types? or is it the weapon itself?

what is this trickery?

What if, we need to Cap ourselves?!

its not really 1 "mechanism" on its own and no, we dont need to cap ourselves. content needs to grow alongside the powercreep. he mentioned the enemy level so bear that one in mind.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Xydeth

[Midas]

3 minutes ago, AriaSTG said:

I do not understand, pardon my Damage Dealing Diploma. Is the Damage to strong or otherwise?
what is this broken mechanism we need to address so that we can fix this absurd numbers?
do we need to cap every single damage types? or is it the weapon itself?

what is this trickery?

further down the thread a lot of older players (5-6 year old accounts) are beginning to flood in which is really nice. Good feedback and ideas are floating around and criticism on why some stuff may or may not work. To answer your question

Condition Overload is a mod

Arcane trickery is an invisibility arcane (look it up on warframe wiki, always use warframe wiki).

for broken mechanisms there are a lot that people over the years have discovered.

Damage types are not really the problem, procs are different matter.

I believe enemy shields should provide status immunity like the Demolyst making magnetic/impact relevant again (otherwise it is basically viral slash).

Disruption is the only game mode where shield disruption dominates (throw is at least 1 enemy radar it helps).

Edited August 2, 2019 by Midas

[Thrymm]

Most of y'all defending these kinds of damage numbers are either willfully ignoring or completely overlooking one very important thing.

The "critical mass" damage number that kills anything in the "normal" game was reached long before that screenshot. 

I can hit a number that'll one shot any normal enemy and three shot bosses in the first half hour of any content in the game with a 2x multiplier, blood rush, and a slide/crit damage riven Kesheg with Frost and zenurik.  That is to say, two mods and I'm negating all content before their interaction.  That is not advanced maneuvering nor gear.  Put that same weapon to a 4x combo and it'll straight up delete anything within an hour or better of play.  You don't need to put together the entire team synergy and entire combination of mods in order to hit the numbers that negate the content.

It goes entirely against the games design.  This is power far past defeating the games content, and far past eliminating the "gradually force players out" concept that endless missons are geared around.  You can't ever force players out if you can't ever overcome their damage.

This is unhealthy for any game.  When it no longer becomes necessary to overcome the damage dealing hurdle, that aspect of the game is just gone, and the only ways to get it back is a damage reduction or design/redesign content that can deal with that damage level.

Since I don't really want to fight butchers with a billion and a half hit points, I'd rather see the prime suspects for these multipliers go down.

[Xolgys]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Midas:

further down the thread a lot of older players (5-6 year old accounts) are beginning to flood in which is really nice. Good feedback and ideas are floating around and criticism on why some stuff may or may not work. To answer your question

Condition Overload is a mod

Arcane trickery is an invisibility arcane (look it up on warframe wiki, always use warframe wiki).

for broken mechanisms there are a lot that people over the years have discovered.

Damage types are not really the problem, procs are different matter.

I believe enemy shields should provide status immunity like the Demolyst making magnetic/impact relevant again (otherwise it is basically viral slash).

for more than 2 years now i felt that the weaker proccs need improvements which go along an improvement on enemy scaling and what makes enemies more difficult to fight. right now its a simple dmg and resistance scaling, so to say, which is probably the easiest way to do that and doesnt require an insanely smart AI. as long as proccs and enemy AI/scaling dont get revisited, hopefully after melee 3.0, i think there will always be a room to discuss these issues.

personally i wouldnt hope for this to change soon since DE is working on multiple fronts, including melee 3.0 so realistically this whole issue will be adressed sometime 2020, one way or another. i think that would also give more relevance to actually strong combinations and give the usage actual purpose whilst retaining diversity...IF all proccs are set on more or less the same level of potential power. namely heat, magnetic, electric, blast and cold and impact and puncture out of the physicals, tho the slow from cold is surely the lesser issue out of them. maybe melee 3.0 brings some improvements to the weaker proccs, maybe...hopefully...

[Midas]

^^ Noticing a pattern with the age of someone's account and ingame hours (this is debatable depending on if you do endurance runs or a lot of random missions, endurance runners when recruiting usually have less experience with a variety of warframes). shows their experience a bit more in warframe math and gameplay (how frames work). 1.5-2k+ hours is a good judgement imo. Statements above explains a lot whats wrong here.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Midas

[Xolgys]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Thrymm:

Most of y'all defending these kinds of damage numbers are either willfully ignoring or completely overlooking one very important thing.

The "critical mass" damage number that kills anything in the "normal" game was reached long before that screenshot. 

I can hit a number that'll one shot any normal enemy and three shot bosses in the first half hour of any content in the game with a 2x multiplier, blood rush, and a slide/crit damage riven Kesheg with Frost and zenurik.  That is to say, two mods and I'm negating all content before their interaction.  That is not advanced maneuvering nor gear.  Put that same weapon to a 4x combo and it'll straight up delete anything within an hour or better of play.  You don't need to put together the entire team synergy and entire combination of mods in order to hit the numbers that negate the content.

It goes entirely against the games design.  This is power far past defeating the games content, and far past eliminating the "gradually force players out" concept that endless missons are geared around.  You can't ever force players out if you can't ever overcome their damage.

This is unhealthy for any game.  When it no longer becomes necessary to overcome the damage dealing hurdle, that aspect of the game is just gone, and the only ways to get it back is a damage reduction or design/redesign content that can deal with that damage level.

Since I don't really want to fight butchers with a billion and a half hit points, I'd rather see the prime suspects for these multipliers go down.

that was my point some posts above. we dont even need 1% of the millions of dmg, hell even billions possible with the right setups but thats cause powercreep grew more than the enemies did.  some years back the game was more challenging due to multiple factors.

[AriaSTG]

6 minutes ago, Midas said:

I believe enemy shields should provide status immunity like the Demolyst making magnetic/impact relevant again (otherwise it is basically viral slash).

yes this kind of things put brawn and brains together it force u to stop and reevaluate the situations
its saddens me seeing a Nox getting Meme Striked to death

As how i see CO is, i used on my S&A prime. Powerful? yes, but judging on how enemies scale in this game, its a given 
i hope this Melee 3.0 is a good thing for everyone

[Xolgys]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb AriaSTG:

yes this kind of things put brawn and brains together it force u to stop and reevaluate the situations
its saddens me seeing a Nox getting Meme Striked to death

As how i see CO is, i used on my S&A prime. Powerful? yes, but judging on how enemies scale in this game, its a given 
i hope this Melee 3.0 is a good thing for everyone

agree. enemies like Nox should be more common so that generally its not as simple as rock paper scissors. considering only up to sortie level enemies its basically just a matter of the right element and can u hit an enemy, at best the head, or not unless its a boss. a Nox at least does require a headshot at a certain level and is generally not too basic. infested ancients are similar tho their hook is as silly as the bombards butt-roket but in the end they are at least blessed with some form of behaviour, even if its just ability usage.

i think in the end thats tied to the AI issue and also to bosses: with better AIs and more diverse abilities on enemies/bosses also dependant on players actions/loadout or their own state, afflicted with a status for instance, the game would innately have more difficulty without ramping up their dmg/tankyness in an unhealthy way which kind of requires certain combinations specifically to deal with them. in the end this creates pseudo-choice only because the choices diminish based on effectivity. it would be much greater to have healthy enemy behaviour to ramp up difficulty and not only via tankyness/dmg and amount of ancients/nullies which would also retain diversity in terms of build choices and overall long term fun even if its the same mission type.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Xydeth

[taiiat]

17 hours ago, Xzorn said:

though melee is admittedly a bit barren on interesting mods.

we're on the same page then :)

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

This topic is still up? The ammount of misinformation that the op have spread with 1 post is tremendous.  

There is no need to nerf CO, the average everyday player will never go as far as these guys on survival (190 min lol), their average is at best 60 minutes.  

Not to mention that, not even on my build (with Blast/Corrosive/Viral/Gas/Magnetic/Impact/Puncture/Slash) i can reach 1m damage. He's not only with a full setup squad to exploit CO (don't even try to pretend you're not, because as far as i know, nobody can proc all 15 elements with 1 build), but he's also stacking combo multipliers for more than 3h, and he probably has a top tier riven on his build.  

Also, guns will outclass any melee on average level gameplay, they cover much more space whitout effort, and they cause more damage whitout the need of stacking anything.

Not to mention the fact that is completely unnecessary to go that far on any mission (enemies will insta-kill your certainly, it becomes much harder to maintain efficiency). Yet, HE IS STILL trying to shove down our guts this narrative that melee weapons are OP...God, why have you abandoned us?

Edited August 4, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[Midas]

Says the man who has only been here since july ^ Not sure how long you have played but the only proof of your total activity time in warframe is literally after Tennocon according to your forum join date. I believe you have less experience in warframe than most of the critics here knowing full well what we are discussing.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Midas

[NanoSum]

On 2019-07-31 at 12:02 AM, taiiat said:

you wouldn't want to just remove Blood Rush and Condition Overload, as, mechanically, they are far more interesting regardless of statistical effect than just about all of your other Mod choices. i'd much prefer values within reason to other Mods, and then push the game further towards Mods that do things that are interesting, rather than just +Damage or +Utility Stat.

I never said that blood rush and CO should be removed? All throughout my lengthy post, I emphasized that blood rush and maiming strike should be tweaked in terms of numbers because of how easy they are to access, unlike how abusing CO requires one to have a full loadout specifically for CO priming.

I share your sentiment, that blood rush and CO bring interesting mechanics into the game, but I believe that CO is fine as it is because for most people (who don't do 3 hour survivals like op) who don't go out of their way to prime for CO (personally I just use 90% status chance arca plasmor, 1 shots everything 2nd sortie level and below), all it does is give you enough of a damage boost to save you a reload or 2 in the 3rd sortie. I think that most people just use it as a slight damage boost because in such a fast paced game like Warframe, you can't really sit around with an average weapon trying to proc. For most of us casuals, it's just, if it procs then we get a slight damage boost. If not? We have energy for abilities, and ammo for guns. We're not forced to use our melee.

With the average casual in mind, I think that CO wasn't meant to be a game breaker in the first place, and it's not, as long as you don't go out exploiting it with a build that procs 9 different status effects. So if anyone's saying that CO is game breaking because all they're doing is priming for CO, well buddy, that's on you.

If the point isn't that CO is powerful, but that CO is too powerful and can be exploited, then yes, I do agree that it can be exploited, however we're going against possibly infinitely scaling enemies, so we need things like CO. However focusing on CO takes away from the fact that the benefits that maiming and blood rush can give are too easily accessible. You don't have to do anything but spam E and then you'll get that broken blood rush damage. 

I think that CO is just of a lesser priority to be tweaked (maybe capped to a certain number of procs? as someone said before) than blood rush or maiming, because CO isn't necessarily a reliable increase in damage if you're not running at least 1 status weapon - it only gives you an insane benefit when you're knowingly abusing the system. Meanwhile, (and I realize that I'm saying the same thing over and over again) blood rush and maiming are too easy to use. Too. Easy. Just Spin2Win for insane damage to abuse both, no priming required.

Edited August 4, 2019 by NanoSum

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, NanoSum said:

I never said that blood rush and CO should be removed?

 

I think that most people just use it as a slight damage boost because in such a fast paced game like Warframe, you can't really sit around with an average weapon trying to proc. For most of us casuals, it's just, if it procs then we get a slight damage boost. If not? We have energy for abilities, and ammo for guns. We're not forced to use our melee.

With the average casual in mind, I think that CO wasn't meant to be a game breaker in the first place, and it's not, as long as you don't go out exploiting it with a build that procs 9 different status effects. So if anyone's saying that CO is game breaking because all they're doing is priming for CO, well buddy, that's on you.

 

However focusing on CO takes away from the fact that the benefits that maiming and blood rush can give are too easily accessible. You don't have to do anything but spam E and then you'll get that broken blood rush damage. 

I think that CO is just of a lesser priority to be tweaked (maybe capped to a certain number of procs? as someone said before) than blood rush or maiming, because CO isn't necessarily a reliable increase in damage if you're not running at least 1 status weapon - it only gives you an insane benefit when you're knowingly abusing the system. Meanwhile, (and I realize that I'm saying the same thing over and over again) blood rush and maiming are too easy to use. Too. Easy. Just Spin2Win for insane damage to abuse both, no priming required.

that's the impression i got, but that's behind us so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

see, even with just the simplest usage like that though, it's already the single strongest Mod on your Melee Weapon. if you're just spraying 3 Status Effects while shooting the Enemy before you get close and you whack it, it's already one of the best Mods in the game, and you didn't even put any real effort into it.
that would be sortof the point then - that the Damage Multiplier you get out of it is pretty silly and doesn't fit in comparison with all of the other Mods nor in relativity to the effort that you put into using it.
much of the same as the select few other Mods/features that perform at that level - the effort put into using them is hardly anything what you get out of it doesn't really line up with that then. especially compared to some other active mechanic Mods that do give some good results, and have similar or higher effort requirements.

 

that's not accurate. Condition Overload can be treated the same way - you can just hit the Enemies a bunch of times and you'll quickly Multiply your Damage to high levels. both of these two specific things can massively Multiply Damage 'just by attacking'. in theory Condition Overload takes a while to 'warm up', but realistically increase your Attack Speed just the same as people do for Blood Rush, and that part is sorted in a fraction of a second.

capping Condition Overload wouldn't be a 'fix', just a bandaid. the formula it uses is nonsensical, if it was just a normal Multiplicative Bonus it would already be one of the best Mods. there's no reason for it to be Exponential. Et Cetera.

[Xolgys]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb taiiat:

that's not accurate. Condition Overload can be treated the same way - you can just hit the Enemies a bunch of times and you'll quickly Multiply your Damage to high levels. both of these two specific things can massively Multiply Damage 'just by attacking'. in theory Condition Overload takes a while to 'warm up', but realistically increase your Attack Speed just the same as people do for Blood Rush, and that part is sorted in a fraction of a second.

u cant threat it the same way since u have to do that for every single enemy. once u built a combo counter with nearly literally a bazillion slide crit chance it affects every enemy. condition overload requires u to reapply to every single enemy u didnt hit yet, range not considered at this point since range also effectively affects combo counter buildup speed.

that being said ofc, condition overloads math can snowball hard, no discussion required, but even with help from a frame u cant compare 4-6x 60% for example damage to the sheer scaling speed and damage escalation from slide crit + bloodrush, especially when u pair it with a frame that gives 0 candy about armor or a team with 4x CP. the only real concern then is if ur fingers survive the constant slide abuse, ignoring the fact that some ppl do still use macros.

CO is strong, absolutely, and even with a low dmg type amount or low sc weapon 1-2 proccs from a frame already make it more than worth the slot, but CO on its own or even with 2 60/60s doesnt compare to the general usability and power of maiming + bloodrush and the broken math. also slide crit on rivens allows this combination to escalate even more. with status there is a limit in terms of status procc amount and status chance since u cant overprocc "above" 100%. due to the crit levels cc has a huge advantage innately with only armor being the only real weakness...and a frames durability/invisibility timer.

sure, hybrid is possible but if we discuss that then we wont ever reach an end for sure since that would basically make the whole math even more broken, results shown by the screenshot in the OT.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Xydeth