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TheBlackishBoy

The state of warframes community/playerbase

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I think its difficult enough. I got my Wukong prime and going to use 1 other frame Gauss for late game when he comes to ps4. If i want a challenge i do Arbitration or 2 hour Survival. Even if they made it harder all you would have to do is find some overpowered crap and rain hell. 

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6 hours ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Balancing is important for sure and millions of threads have tackled that including a few of mine but this is more about the desires of the players. Does the player base really want challenge or does the majority want to press 4 and kill everything without much thought.

I don't think you can get an answer (at least not one with a sample size big enough to be definitive), the majority of players don't use the forums or reddit

 

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No thanks. Any time a developer makes challenging content for veterans, no one else can participate. It's just like you said. 

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7 hours ago, Aldain said:

These threads are starting to get exhausting.

then why click on them?

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7 hours ago, Aldain said:

These threads are starting to get exhausting.

Hang In There Buddy...

Its just a phase.... things will be back to normal soon....

Yoy definitely won't be seeing them when the next Mainline Update drops...

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Yes. Challenges are what drives me in games. Imo there is absolutely no point in spending time to improve yourself and your gear if there is nothing in the game to counter it. I love the lore and style of the game, as well as the gameplay, but after just a year I'm really struggling to find fun and engaging things to do. 

And no I don't run around in meta gear and immortal frames. If there is something good that has come from this lack of "endgame" for me lately it's that I've been spending more time on research and finetunining setups for my favorite frames and gear, and learning how to use it as efficiently as possible for different kinds of missions rather than relying on the usual op meta. But again I quickly reach that point where I simply don't have anything to do with it. 

Imo the game don't necessarily need tougher enemies. No one want bulletsponges. The challange should be in the gameplay, how you move, how you multitask, how you conserve energy, how you stay on your feet, how you make use of your environment, when to get in close, when to keep a distance, when/what to CC, things like that. I think DE is kind of on the right track with all the upgrades to Corpus units in Fortuna and the rich and clever environment in Gas City. Unfortunately Fortuna got nerfed, hard, and Gas City is after all on Jupiter, a barely mid-level planet. This content still have great potential for high level nodes, and is already in the game. I really wish DE would do something more interesting with it. 

And the people who don't want challenging gameplay can just avoid doing these things like how they already ignore things like Eidolons and Arbitrations or whatever. It makes no sense that a game of this size would just cater to newbies, casuals, and fashionistas. There should be something fun for all of us, and holy sh*t you casuals got like 98% of the cake right now, and that is simply not fair. 

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2 minutes ago, SirTobe said:

Yes. Challenges are what drives me in games. Imo there is absolutely no point in spending time to improve yourself and your gear if there is nothing in the game to counter it. I love the lore and style of the game, as well as the gameplay, but after just a year I'm really struggling to find fun and engaging things to do. 

Yeah but.... do you want the game to directly counter everything you can do ? 

Do you want enemies to Block/Parry everytime you melee ? 

Do you want them to Dodge  everytime you shoot ?

Every time a "Make warframe challenging again" Thread pops up it seems like thats exactly what they want Warframe to do....

6 minutes ago, SirTobe said:

And the people who don't want challenging gameplay can just avoid doing these things like how they already ignore things like Eidolons and Arbitrations or whatever.

It would be easierto avoid if there weren't rewards exclusive to these Activities....

Theres a reason why thermia Fractures was only ever under control the very first time it came....

Since then its never made it past intermittent control....  

Becausw everybody got their Opticor Vandals. 

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1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah but.... do you want the game to directly counter everything you can do ? 

Do you want enemies to Block/Parry everytime you melee ? 

Do you want them to Dodge  everytime you shoot ?

Every time a "Make warframe challenging again" Thread pops up it seems like thats exactly what they want Warframe to do....

No that's not what I meant. My example was that I think the new Corpus enemies of Fortuna and the environments of Gas City got it fairly right. The enemies have variating abilities that when combined can effectively overwhelm our warframes if we don't pay attention to them or deal with them in a prioritized order. The environments of Gas City are variating and interesting in terms of space, cover, parkour, interaction, and random events that change the platforms. The goal is to not be able to just own everything by pressing 4 with the flashy maxed build you copied from youtube with mods you bought with plat. You have to actually play the game too. 

 

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

It would be easierto avoid if there weren't rewards exclusive to these Activities....

Theres a reason why thermia Fractures was only ever under control the very first time it came....

Since then its never made it past intermittent control....  

Becausw everybody got their Opticor Vandals. 

That event was designed for a completely different purpose, and are not really even comparable. Of course the rewards has to be something that players can't get enough of. Either rare resources or rare items that can be sold for plat to the lazy players (like arcanes from Eidolons), and of course some of those super cool low drop chance things, because why not. 

But drop the thought of mindless grind for a moment and imagine a game mode that is played to also have FUN. I'm not saying I have all the answers here, but there are plenty of games out there that are addictive because they are engaging and challenging, not because of some shiny pixles you may or may not be rewarded every 5 minutes. The real reward here should be the the sense of achievement based on your performance. Additionally maybe we could be able to set some of the conditions ourselves. Maybe there would be some form of competitive element between players although they are ultimately all working together for the same goal. Maybe we could affect the investment vs reward, as in the index. Maybe it could show related stats and achievements in your profile. Maybe the mission/challenge wouldn't be completely linear as EVERYTHING else in the game, but with some random minibosses and changes in conditions like sudden power outage, sudden transference disruption forcing out your operator, sudden elemental canges in the environment. Etc.

There are plenty of things that can keep it interesting and challenging without godlike AI or bulletsponges. 

 

Also, I'm tired, I may be rambling at this point. 

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21 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Well... yes.... 

So long as your Load Out Matters more than your skill then Your never going to experience difficulty in Warframe.... only imbalance....

In accordance with what I've written above.... you can see why people are complaining....

You make an event the Gear locks People out of participating and there fore locks them out of getting rewards....

pretty straight forward if you ask me....

 

Okay let me give you a quick and dirty answer to why everyone is against your Suggestions....

You're not concerned with making the game more fun.... only with making it more difficult. Im willing to bet you're one of those  people who thinks Nullifiers, Energy Leeches and Arbitration Drones are  a necessary evil...

We could debate all day whether these things make warframe more challenging but I know for a fact they piss off alot of players to the point of insanity.... 

If any of your suggestions if adding more challenge to the game even remotely seems like its going to make some weapons or warframes less useful them you are going to get resistence from "Casual players"....

I don't believe those players are against challenge..... not even the ones who specifically say so.... its just that whenever it comes up its not actually about Challenge. Its just content that kills diversity....

The most recent offender being The Ropalolyst Boss....

If you actually payed attention to people complaints about "Challenging content" two of which were made by me.... you would see what it is really wrong with DE's approach to challenge. 

Its just not fun....

Yea i agree DE tend to use cheap ways to make artificial difficulty i agree. I don't just want hard content ofc it would be fun but the thing is the game started slow and kinda clunky almost and enemies were built with that system in mind. But with innovations for players the enemies get little to none. Everyone hates armor and 1 shots it's not fun and it's not hard just annoying. The suggestions i made were ways to make the gameplay more engaging for the most part, add player skill rather then just better gear and the main changes would be with heavy enemies not all of them. I still think fodder enemies are supposed to be weak and should be taken out quickly blah blah, but improving ai as a whole and simply giving the enemies access to more mechanics similar to ours so we don't kill literally everything without a second thought would make the game more enjoyable to tons of players. Making telegraphs from enemies that shoot missiles that you have to dodge sometimes combined with enemies having weak points, or shields or something so that mobility and skill are required to outsmart the enemies and kill them quickly is a lot different then a stupid head that just makes everything invulnerable. Also giving fodder enemies buffs when they group together to make them a slight threat if you don't kill them quickly would make things interesting where you have to balance focusing on heavies and keeping the fodder enemies numbers short. It would just add tactics to the game. The gameplay would still be fast and ttk for enemies would be fairly short still butI. Instead of simply pressing 4 or shooting in a single direction all the time you would have to think about positioning and the types of enemies and how many there are. I even offered status changes for balance and simple ways to fix armor scaling and enemy damage so they aren't just 1 shotting people but so that they are a threat but still fair. Yes difficulty can exist in this game but it can't be a copy paste style from other games because few games have warframes mobility and damage potential so it takes a bit more thought. DE is fully capable i think but the thread was mainly about if the community would accept that or if they rather just stay with whats familiar. Just like the old days with coptering, people didn't want to change the movement system although it looked promising simply because it was different but today it is one of the best additions to the game imo but i think enemies need to adapt to that change you can't leave them where they are. Removing pointless or annoying mechanics would also help because ground slams from grineer heavies are useless and just annoying. I do think nullifiers aren't inherently bad though because they offer a change of pace and can easily be avoided and taken out maybe add physics so they cant go through walls tho.

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17 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Yeah but.... do you want the game to directly counter everything you can do ? 

Do you want enemies to Block/Parry everytime you melee ? 

Do you want them to Dodge  everytime you shoot ?

Every time a "Make warframe challenging again" Thread pops up it seems like thats exactly what they want Warframe to do....

It would be easierto avoid if there weren't rewards exclusive to these Activities....

Theres a reason why thermia Fractures was only ever under control the very first time it came....

Since then its never made it past intermittent control....  

Becausw everybody got their Opticor Vandals. 

Every game counters the players abilities in some way or tries to bring higher levels of skill out that's not the problem, the problem is that DE makes it to where it's oversaturated, and they tend to be very cheap or unfair. The cool thing about dark souls is that it was fair in the sense that enemies never cheated you, you died because you were careless or not ready. I think warframe could do the same thing, but often they just make it to where they literally take away out abilities instead of asking us to use them in more meaningful ways and varying tactics depending on the enemy and situation. No everything shouldn't be countered all at once that's dumb but having an enemy that is immune or resistant to melee but attacks you from long range for example while buffing alies in a radius wouldn't make you powerless it would cut off 1 form of combat for one enemy for short period of time asking you to rely on other forms to defeat the enemy. There's nothing wrong with that but ofc if there are 20 units in a room and one takes your energy, one keeps you from moving, and one reduces your damage ofc that wouldn't make sense. Look at games like emily wants to play the game is a scary game but its implementation of various mechanics was really smart. If a certain enemy popped up you couldn't move but another enemy would force you to move or he would catch you, they kept it balanced by giving a small period where you could move and not spawning both of them at the same time. Making a game where all you really do is walk really interesting. The same could be done in warframe where you have higher tier units that can block damage from one side or disable your powers in an area. It wouldn't make them invincible and wouldn't make your skills useless it would ask you to approach that enemy a different way and try to balance different mechanics so that you don't get put in a terrible spot. Ofc these are just suggestions there are probably better ones these are just off the top but taking away or resisting something the player can do isn't a bad thing. And like i said it would have a level requirement. If you are in a level 60 mission these enemies wouldn't pop up for example unless you were going for long duration endless missions. But obviously some people don't want that and that's ok. That's why i made the thread.

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16 hours ago, SirTobe said:

No that's not what I meant. My example was that I think the new Corpus enemies of Fortuna and the environments of Gas City got it fairly right. The enemies have variating abilities that when combined can effectively overwhelm our warframes if we don't pay attention to them or deal with them in a prioritized order. The environments of Gas City are variating and interesting in terms of space, cover, parkour, interaction, and random events that change the platforms. The goal is to not be able to just own everything by pressing 4 with the flashy maxed build you copied from youtube with mods you bought with plat. You have to actually play the game too. 

 

That event was designed for a completely different purpose, and are not really even comparable. Of course the rewards has to be something that players can't get enough of. Either rare resources or rare items that can be sold for plat to the lazy players (like arcanes from Eidolons), and of course some of those super cool low drop chance things, because why not. 

But drop the thought of mindless grind for a moment and imagine a game mode that is played to also have FUN. I'm not saying I have all the answers here, but there are plenty of games out there that are addictive because they are engaging and challenging, not because of some shiny pixles you may or may not be rewarded every 5 minutes. The real reward here should be the the sense of achievement based on your performance. Additionally maybe we could be able to set some of the conditions ourselves. Maybe there would be some form of competitive element between players although they are ultimately all working together for the same goal. Maybe we could affect the investment vs reward, as in the index. Maybe it could show related stats and achievements in your profile. Maybe the mission/challenge wouldn't be completely linear as EVERYTHING else in the game, but with some random minibosses and changes in conditions like sudden power outage, sudden transference disruption forcing out your operator, sudden elemental canges in the environment. Etc.

There are plenty of things that can keep it interesting and challenging without godlike AI or bulletsponges. 

 

Also, I'm tired, I may be rambling at this point. 

Yea man a lot of people are talking about old warframe because back then we were a lot more limited and survivals were commonly run so people would kinda compete to get the longest run. The game was a lot more difficult and we couldn't just spam powers constantly and it gave you that feeling of fun because you had to be smart and master mechanics to win fights and stuff. You also had the feeling of achievement when you could solo a survival for 40mins easily or when you got to your first hour and some people went way further then that. I remember just doing solo survivals just because they were fun and challenging, not that those things didn't need improvements but the system was built to compliment the original idea of frames and movement so things worked together. But now things have changed in some areas and other areas are still ancient, with some innovations the foundations had to change but they didn't. The ai is still dumb, the enemies lack any weapon variety or mechanics for the most part, and endless game modes are useless to run and aren't fun due to the fact that they are way too easy now and since the scaling is out of wack. Now for basic content like fortuna and the star chart quest etc the game is pretty good or at least keeps you occupied for a bit but there was definitely a shift in the way you felt toward the game and stuff for a lot of people even though it has improved a lot it lost something along the way. I think it can easily be fixed with time and work but idk if it's worth it because so many people like the game where it's at. Also totally off topic but recently i noticed from old warframe vids wayyy back that some things just seemed better about the look and feel of the game. Like the game looked dark and griddy it lacks that look. It would be cool if we could get like a filter to add to the game for that darker kind of setting. Also rolling and running and and wall running just carried more weight now it kinda feels like we float more then anything. It's small thing and its complete preference but i think it would be cool to get that back somehow.

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1 hour ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Yea i agree DE tend to use cheap ways to make artificial difficulty i agree. I don't just want hard content ofc it would be fun but the thing is the game started slow and kinda clunky almost and enemies were built with that system in mind. But with innovations for players the enemies get little to none. Everyone hates armor and 1 shots it's not fun and it's not hard just annoying. The suggestions i made were ways to make the gameplay more engaging for the most part, add player skill rather then just better gear and the main changes would be with heavy enemies not all of them. I still think fodder enemies are supposed to be weak and should be taken out quickly blah blah, but improving ai as a whole and simply giving the enemies access to more mechanics similar to ours so we don't kill literally everything without a second thought would make the game more enjoyable to tons of players. Making telegraphs from enemies that shoot missiles that you have to dodge sometimes combined with enemies having weak points, or shields or something so that mobility and skill are required to outsmart the enemies and kill them quickly is a lot different then a stupid head that just makes everything invulnerable. Also giving fodder enemies buffs when they group together to make them a slight threat if you don't kill them quickly would make things interesting where you have to balance focusing on heavies and keeping the fodder enemies numbers short. It would just add tactics to the game. The gameplay would still be fast and ttk for enemies would be fairly short still butI. Instead of simply pressing 4 or shooting in a single direction all the time you would have to think about positioning and the types of enemies and how many there are. I even offered status changes for balance and simple ways to fix armor scaling and enemy damage so they aren't just 1 shotting people but so that they are a threat but still fair. Yes difficulty can exist in this game but it can't be a copy paste style from other games because few games have warframes mobility and damage potential so it takes a bit more thought. DE is fully capable i think but the thread was mainly about if the community would accept that or if they rather just stay with whats familiar. Just like the old days with coptering, people didn't want to change the movement system although it looked promising simply because it was different but today it is one of the best additions to the game imo but i think enemies need to adapt to that change you can't leave them where they are. Removing pointless or annoying mechanics would also help because ground slams from grineer heavies are useless and just annoying. I do think nullifiers aren't inherently bad though because they offer a change of pace and can easily be avoided and taken out maybe add physics so they cant go through walls tho.

I actually do agree with alot your ideas here.... However:

1 hour ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

The suggestions i made were ways to make the gameplay more engaging for the most part, add player skill rather then just better gear and the main changes would be with heavy enemies not all of them. I

You can't have it both ways....  those two concepts are inversely proportional to each other....

For the game to be more skill based you need to remove emphasis on so much the outcome being determined by what gear you have.... ofcourse if you do that then the whole gear and loot system becomes pointless....

This isn't a case of the developer needing to figure out a way to make them both work.... thats just not gonna happen.... you can balance them but that just means both concepts won't fully realise their potential. 

This is the basis of why I say Warframe can't be challenging... 

1 hour ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Every game counters the players abilities in some way or tries to bring higher levels of skill out

Yeah I rarely encounter this concept in a lot of games. Fact is Warframe does it.... other games don't....

1 hour ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

The cool thing about dark souls is that it was fair in the sense that enemies never cheated you, you died because you were careless or not ready.

I don't know why people keep pointing to Dark Souls as the pinnacle of Fair Challenge.... that game is cheap.... you are killed and punished without fair warning alot of the time...

But more than that.... Dark Souls is just boring.... theres no depth or variety to its game play.... You have quick attack.... charge attack.... Block.... and dodge..... further more blocking is something you can only do with specified shields and charge attacks is something you could use on enemies that leave a wide enough oprning.... an extremely Rare occurrence. I myself have never landed one on my early play throughs.... 

Ofcourse the game is alot more fair once you put on Havel's armor and run around without worrying about getting one shotted randomly.....

1 hour ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Every game counters the players abilities in some way or tries to bring higher levels of skill out that's not the problem, the problem is that DE makes it to where it's oversaturated, and they tend to be very cheap or unfair. The cool thing about dark souls is that it was fair in the sense that enemies never cheated you, you died because you were careless or not ready. I think warframe could do the same thing, but often they just make it to where they literally take away out abilities instead of asking us to use them in more meaningful ways and varying tactics depending on the enemy and situation. No everything shouldn't be countered all at once that's dumb but having an enemy that is immune or resistant to melee but attacks you from long range for example while buffing alies in a radius wouldn't make you powerless it would cut off 1 form of combat for one enemy for short period of time asking you to rely on other forms to defeat the enemy. There's nothing wrong with that but ofc if there are 20 units in a room and one takes your energy, one keeps you from moving, and one reduces your damage ofc that wouldn't make sense. Look at games like emily wants to play the game is a scary game but its implementation of various mechanics was really smart. If a certain enemy popped up you couldn't move but another enemy would force you to move or he would catch you, they kept it balanced by giving a small period where you could move and not spawning both of them at the same time. Making a game where all you really do is walk really interesting. The same could be done in warframe where you have higher tier units that can block damage from one side or disable your powers in an area. It wouldn't make them invincible and wouldn't make your skills useless it would ask you to approach that enemy a different way and try to balance different mechanics so that you don't get put in a terrible spot. Ofc these are just suggestions there are probably better ones these are just off the top but taking away or resisting something the player can do isn't a bad thing. And like i said it would have a level requirement. If you are in a level 60 mission these enemies wouldn't pop up for example unless you were going for long duration endless missions. But obviously some people don't want that and that's ok. That's why i made the thread.

Otherwise I agree with everything else said here.... :)

 

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13 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I actually do agree with alot your ideas here.... However:

You can't have it both ways....  those two concepts are inversely proportional to each other....

For the game to be more skill based you need to remove emphasis on so much the outcome being determined by what gear you have.... ofcourse if you do that then the whole gear and loot system becomes pointless....

This isn't a case of the developer needing to figure out a way to make them both work.... thats just not gonna happen.... you can balance them but that just means both concepts won't fully realise their potential. 

This is the basis of why I say Warframe can't be challenging... 

Yeah I rarely encounter this concept in a lot of games. Fact is Warframe does it.... other games don't....

I don't know why people keep pointing to Dark Souls as the pinnacle of Fair Challenge.... that game is cheap.... you are killed and punished without fair warning alot of the time...

But more than that.... Dark Souls is just boring.... theres no depth or variety to its game play.... You have quick attack.... charge attack.... Block.... and dodge..... further more blocking is something you can only do with specified shields and charge attacks is something you could use on enemies that leave a wide enough oprning.... an extremely Rare occurrence. I myself have never landed one on my early play throughs.... 

Ofcourse the game is alot more fair once you put on Havel's armor and run around without worrying about getting one shotted randomly.....

Otherwise I agree with everything else said here.... 🙂

 

I just enjoy the dark souls games personally and like the way they are laid out cuz they encourage player skill and they give enemies the same abilities and stuff as the player. But it doesn't have to be dark souls i think that's just a game most people know of lol. But yea it also has its flaws don't get me wrong and i don't want warframe to slow down like that i just think there are lessons that can be learned. Anyway about the chellenge and loadout strength well both can be important. With the complex mechanics or whatevs for enemies it could seriously change how much skill is required but ofc you dont want to erase loot either or gear. That's why a lot of enemy types would still stay the same. If every enemy required a mechanic to kill them it would be super skill focused but with gear it's like it is now with little to no skill needed, but with better ai just so the game isn't completely trivial and so enemies are just more interesting the enemies will just be better against warframes in general. But small buffs and stuff like when 20 fodder enemies are within 15m of eachother for example they get a damage and status buff, which is also almost non existent why don't enemies ever use status really?, with both of these contrasted enemies in the same place it creates a sort of tension and uhhh priority for certain targets and yea i already described the heavies but you also need to keep killing the fodder ones too and both enemies will require that you have at least decent gear. To keep fodder enemies from clumping up you'd want a good weapon and that wouldn't change much but with heavies you'd want to use more skill to kill them but even then you would need mods and stuff to kill enemies. For example if the heavy has a deployable shield you have to parkour around to shoot him then the faster you can kill the enemy the quicker you can move onto the fodder guys or get life support or whatever. I think both should matter and maybe you are right that they won't ever get to maxed potential but i think that's ok. I don't think the game needs to be one way completely either way but i think it should have a bit of both. You make a lot of good point and thanks for even taking time to talk about what i posted so far its nice to see different perspectives and opinions and i think you've helped me to see more then just my own opinion and i think that also helps DE.

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47 minutes ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

I just enjoy the dark souls games personally and like the way they are laid out cuz they encourage player skill and they give enemies the same abilities and stuff as the player.

I disagree with all of this....

 

50 minutes ago, TheBlackishBoy said:

Anyway about the chellenge and loadout strength well both can be important. With the complex mechanics or whatevs for enemies it could seriously change how much skill is required but ofc you dont want to erase loot either or gear. That's why a lot of enemy types would still stay the same. If every enemy required a mechanic to kill them it would be super skill focused but with gear it's like it is now with little to no skill needed, but with better ai just so the game isn't completely trivial and so enemies are just more interesting the enemies will just be better against warframes in general. But small buffs and stuff like when 20 fodder enemies are within 15m of eachother for example they get a damage and status buff, which is also almost non existent why don't enemies ever use status really?, with both of these contrasted enemies in the same place it creates a sort of tension and uhhh priority for certain targets and yea i already described the heavies but you also need to keep killing the fodder ones too and both enemies will require that you have at least decent gear. To keep fodder enemies from clumping up you'd want a good weapon and that wouldn't change much but with heavies you'd want to use more skill to kill them but even then you would need mods and stuff to kill enemies.

As I said... you can't have it both ways. You either pick skill or gear..... or try to get a balance of both and wind up fully pleasing nobody....

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21 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I disagree with all of this....

 

As I said... you can't have it both ways. You either pick skill or gear..... or try to get a balance of both and wind up fully pleasing nobody....

Fair enough for both points

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If a player wants more challenges, the player can always equip fewer Mods or lower MR weapons to make it more challenging. The game is not for the 10% veterans like me, MR27 4000 hours in. It’s for everyone. 

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