Just your average PoE suggestion: Nighttime bounty changes/improvements

[(PSN)F0rsak3n_Fruit]

Terralyst bounties change/rework

(I wrote originally wrotes this as a reddit post but it would've been flagged and removed under the grounds of a repost due popular suggestion, that being said, I copied and pasted this from a document but I have/will be changing things to make it more appropriate for forum viewing etc.)

Please be open minded when reading my suggestions below, my plan is to hopefully provide others or even DE with the ideas they need to help appropriate night caps for new players and potentially reduce toxicity surrounding this content.
I thought about some things DE could do to maybe resolve or at least bring this content up to do date for new/inexperienced players without the need for a major overhaul or something of the sort. I'm not an experienced player, despite having many hours (everyone is always learning whether you realise it or not), so some of my facts/logic may be flawed/require revising or adjusting and it would be nice to have feedback. Most people have probably already stated these things in other posts and comment sections so if I bring nothing new to the discussion then I can at least compile the suggestions people have been thinking of.

1. Night boutnies require The War Within - Standard thought process, to engage in this content you should be able to damage the enemies consistenly i.e; access to the mote amp, understand or at least experienced some of the story surrounding the activity

2. Increase the difficulty of the bounties - Either increase tricap bounty to T5 or add an elite mark to said bounty (or both) to set it apart from terry and other bounties. Raise bounty tiers to 7/8, with terry at 5/6, (add) a garry cap in between as a 6/7 and finally tricap at 7/8. Conveys the 'this is end game content, do not underestimate it' message.

3. Add at least one new bounty as a tutorial to capturing: Capture a wounded Terralyst. Has 2/3 synovia broken (requiring only 1 lure). Requires the quest, first completion must be solo (still seems a bit tough for just mote amp imo). Terralyst drops a unique item which must be presented to the quills to allow access to just the terry bounty. Bounty rewards either quills standing or a handful of different cores or both.
    3.5. Add a vomvalyst hunt bounty that rewards a handful of lower tier cores, cetus wisps and/or POE resources like crafted gems/ores or fish parts (anything that makes getting the first new amp easier). This can be used to teach players how to charge a lure, have one stage possibly be to break 1/2/3 synovia of a terralyst to lead into above bounty (inspired by monster hunter for a 2+ part hunt, don't @me about this :) )

4. Lock the Terralyst capture bounty behind a number of requirements:
    a. A certain rank with quills, 2 sounds good to me, not too hard.
    b. Requires previous point #3 (and 3.5) bounty to be completed prior to this.
    c. (Possibly) Requires a gilded custom amp (prevents new players attempting this and harder capture bounties with a mote amp). Provides new dialogue as well as a simple requirement that            can be achieved with some patience. Guides the player into thinking about more than just their warframe setup, greatly encourages new players to build a new toy to use in regular missions and        for this content, requirement flows well with progression of this content.
    d. Include a mastery rank restriction.

5. Add and lock a Garry bounty to be placed in between Terry and Tricap in difficulty. Make this a requirement for participating in the tricap. Does not have to be solo. Progession based bounty that revises on newly gained knowledge and adds more to learn, effectively known in teaching as 'Rope Learning', building upon and using prior knowledge.

6. Lock Tricap bounty behind the Garry cap requirement, add a mastery rank and/or quills rank requirement, maybe rank 3 or 4 - Encourages progression with the Quills, particiapting and gaining the experience from other hunts, then adding the final boss as a true test.

7. Work focus and focus tree upgrades into here somehow - would round off these ideas pretty well since operator is involved in the fight a lot, links focus and Eidolon hunts together directly instead of indirectly, making new players aware of everything at their disposal.

Additional thoughts/reasons for changes: 

Appropriately acquaint the syndicate for new players and giving it another form of progression like the Profit Taker Orb heist providing them with the experience and guidance they need to participate constructively in task rather than giving them one job like 'try not to die while we carry'. I'm not sure how difficult the implementation of this would be, but the ideas are logical enough, I believe, to modernise this content and make it friendly for most players invested in the game. The restrictions added at each step attempt to ensure that the player is not over stepping boundries and underestimating this content when it is geared towards end game mechanics and concepts.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

[Magicfingers]

my guess is you're really not after making it better...you just want it your way

[(PSN)F0rsak3n_Fruit]

1 minute ago, Magicfingers said:

my guess is you're really not after making it better...you just want it your way

What makes you say that? I'm not personally against helping new players do this, in fact I don't tricap a lot myself. I thought that there is just a lack of guidance with Eidolon hunting in general. The problem people see with this part of PoE being accessable to new players is that they often come ill prepared. Not everyone is the same, but I don't think it's a very good way to learn content by studying the wiki and watching a lot of guides when a game should be at least showing you the ropes rather than throwing you in the deep end and telling you to swim or waiting for a lifeguard to rescue you (getting carried). I like to help people, I just see this as a better way to introduce this to players. I did most of my tricap grinding solo because I was always too scared to disappoint team mates, so I got better by myself so I could help my friends. I think improving the early standing grind for a better amp is probably an issue for a lot of people. It personally felt terrible for me grind cores solo but that was just my playstyle.

Maybe you have a suggestion? I'm all ears 🙂 

[EvilChaosKnight]

More content stashed behind the repetitive rep grind is exactly what we need to make PoE more interesting! /s
Right.
Overall, there's a good word for your idea list. It's "overcomplicating" Sometimes, less is more. Venus has a 2-part story behind the spider fight, and in a way, it makes sense there. Not so much for Dolans.

Personally, I only have a single suggestion about the current hunt. It's that if you pick a hunting bounty (either Terry or Tri-cap), you get an instance of PoE with 40 min night time remaining regardless of the actual server-wide timer. Because watching the clock to pick the right moment to start a bounty is in the same category of fun as watching the paint dry or waiting for the trees to grow.

Edited August 26, 2019 by EvilChaosKnight

[(PSN)F0rsak3n_Fruit]

2 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

More content stashed behind the repetitive rep grind is exactly what we need to make PoE more interesting! /s
Right.
Overall, there's a good word for your idea list. It's "overcomplicating" Sometimes, less is more. Venus has a 2-part story behind the spider fight, and in a way, it makes sense there. Not so much for Dolans.

Personally, I only have a single suggestion about the current hunt. It's that if you pick a hunting bounty (both Terry and Tri-cap), you get an instance of PoE with 40 min night time remaining regardless of the actual server-wide timer. Because watching the clock is in the same category of fun as watching the paint dry or waiting for trees to grow.

I see where you're coming from definitely. It does seem over complicated now that you point it out, I thought I'd come up with something interesting for once so I wanted to share. Instancing is always an interesting topic to bring up. I never really thought about the cycle wait that way really because I just find something to do whether it's grinding or trading. I'm definitely in agreeance with an instanced bounty, it seems like a very simple solution, but I feel as though it may take away some sort aspect of it? Doesn't it create something artificially by having us wait or is just another time gate? I also feel that if it's something simple theoretically that it would've been implemented by now, however, as I've said, I'm not experienced and no where near a veteran so I don't really have the best stance on most things. Awesome suggestion though!

[EvilChaosKnight]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit said:

I see where you're coming from definitely. It does seem over complicated now that you point it out, I thought I'd come up with something interesting for once so I wanted to share. 

Overall, I also see what you are trying to do here, but for it to work, we'd need to have a proper introduction to Dolans when we first visit Cetus. Then we'd need a clear indication of a "threat" coming from said Dolan, at least some complaints made by locals, maybe even a sad story or two how someone got oblitirated because they angered Terry by attacking it (to make it clear that you prob. shouldn't try to fire guns at it).

At rank 3 with Ostrons, it would make sense for locals to ask you to resolve the issue with said Dolan, and for that they'd point you the Quils which would then test your worth + learn how to actually hurt the damn thing in a series of bounties (2-3), by the end of which you fight Terry. This way, you can get Quils standing by also doing missions rather than simply farming low-tier cores. Since you can only access Quils with your kid mode, TWW requirment would feel more natural. Maybe, even put a voice line on the door before TWW is completed that player can only enter once they "fully discover themselves"? Just some fluff to make it less mundane.

I'd rather not lock any missions behind the secondary standing, though.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit said:

Doesn't it create something artificially by having us wait or is just another time gate?

And you aren't wrong here. The idea is for night bounties to only appear at night as they do now, but once you accept them, you are given big enough time frame to complete all stages. Because as it is now, if you are in a 2-person team with non-full meta builds, you might as well not bother accepting the Tri-cap with less than 20min left. Which further shrinks already small window of opportunity.

[Redeye]

2 hours ago, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit said:

4. Lock the Terralyst capture bounty behind a number of requirements:
    a. A certain rank with quills, 2 sounds good to me, not too hard.
    b. Requires previous point #3 (and 3.5) bounty to be completed prior to this.
    c. (Possibly) Requires a gilded custom amp (prevents new players attempting this and harder capture bounties with a mote amp). Provides new dialogue as well as a simple requirement that            can be achieved with some patience. Guides the player into thinking about more than just their warframe setup, greatly encourages new players to build a new toy to use in regular missions and        for this content, requirement flows well with progression of this content.
    d. Include a mastery rank restriction.

a. I don't really like this since it would make it more time-consuming for new Teralysts hunters. Back when PoE was introduced, we all started with the mote amp for Terry, and it was even less powerful than it is now. We still managed, even though it took some time. Not to mention that a single warframe with the right gear can take Terry down quite fast. Even though it sounds like taxi'ing newcomers, I'm more than happy to make them skip the grind we had to go through to get decent amps. Remember that cores you drop from Terry are worth more than regular ones.

b. Part of your idea, so I'm kind of neutral on this.

c. Refer to a. Unecessary gating to me. We do not need more of this.

d. There already is one, it's MR5-locked and it's logical since it's theorically what you need to do the War Within. Some Tenno around here can easily prove you that MR doesn't mean anything. You can rush all the way to 27 and still have no idea how to play this game correctly.

 

Edit: as for night regular bounties requiring TWW, you're basically locking out newbies that just reached the plains to play on it. Maybe a line from Onkko/Konzu saying something like "your weapons can't damage this creature, better run away" when someone who hasn't got an amp attacks a Vomvalyst or a Teralyst could do the trick, but certainly not stright up locking the whole bounty list for 50minutes to new players.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Redeye

[Avienas]

50 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

More content stashed behind the repetitive rep grind is exactly what we need to make PoE more interesting! /s
Right.
Overall, there's a good word for your idea list. It's "overcomplicating" Sometimes, less is more. Venus has a 2-part story behind the spider fight, and in a way, it makes sense there. Not so much for Dolans.

Personally, I only have a single suggestion about the current hunt. It's that if you pick a hunting bounty (either Terry or Tri-cap), you get an instance of PoE with 40 min night time remaining regardless of the actual server-wide timer. Because watching the clock to pick the right moment to start a bounty is in the same category of fun as watching the paint dry or waiting for the trees to grow.

Sadly i do not have much fun reading giant text blocks so i skipped over a bit of the Thread poster, but honestly i would ENJOY, if eidolons were changed to be more of a instanced thing instead of how people are exploiting it to take down 5 or more tridolons a night. Just let us be able to go back to the altar and `reset` it to respawn the teralyst and have a cap of 3 teralysts, 3 gantalysts and 3 hydrolysts with some kind of 1 hour cool down after the first hydrolyst is taken down to prevent players from the exit/re-enter strat to do more.

One of the reasons the value of arcanes have died down is how many times people can do such an absurd number of eidolons in such a short span and continue to spam it every few hours. Plus if people are able to get 660k or more focus every 2-3ish hours, well i would think that just screws over focus grind to the point the daily focus cap even gets clucked on. That is not even counting people able to just solo a round of them in 10 to 15 minutes easy. Of course if you are doing 4 to 5 tridolons a round, then clearly you have maxed all the important stuff by now to where the focus shards are stockpiling and your wondering if d.e. will give us a sink to put the shards in since you also maxed all the other skills and could do it 5 times over by now.

Just as less can be more, having it simplified to where the eidolon hunt instance SCREWS the normal clock and just gives players a 40~50 minute unique instance which pre-loads lures in and people do not have to worry about being late or have to prepare extremely early, mainly due to void strike cheese stats. Well its a fair trade off to let people actually focus on enjoying the fight then try to cram as many in single sitting to where its almost as bad of an obsession as when i used to try and blaze thru up to 6 or more `event quests` on maplestory, every day, before i can get to regular stuff to do, not counting doing it PER active character of mine.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Avienas

[Darth_Predator]

While points 1 and 3 make sense, others less so.

1) So asking for an amp to go there is reasonable. Unlike the guy who asked to restrict eidolons to mr13 for no reason, couple of months ago.

2) I didn't really understand what you were trying to say. I get the elite mark, but what's the purpose for tier 6-8 for eidolons? They are basically their own thing that just happens to be on the same screen as regular bounties. I think they are better off in their own dialog option tbh. Having 2-cap bounty would be a nice addition though.

3) Tutorial will be a welcomed addition. I don't mind explaining stuff to people, but sometimes it's kind of uncomfortable to do so in the middle of a fight. Having Onko explain stuff to people before letting them to full strength Terralyst will save some time to people who are new to the hunt as well as ones who did this a bunch already.

Vomvalyst bounty that reward some cores and more importantly allow for a quick reliable way of finding little bastards and getting first rank with Quills can help a bunch. Cause we all know that stripping shields with mote amp is a pain. Running around the plains looking for random spawns of 3 little guys is tedious, running after Terry and hunting killing the ones he spawns is not only tedious but also kinda dangerous.

4) Locking bounties behind a rank is not so good. Fortuna proved that. Even at as low rank as you are proposing, that will cause negative reaction from people who came there for the first time. Like they been through some tough sh*t to speak to Onko in the first place. War Withing at mr5 for a new player is though, they probably are not even pass the relay that gives the quest at this point. It is easy to forget that warframe is confusing af to new players, thus putting another wall in front of them is a bit too much imo.

Gilded amp for tricap I can understand, sort of. Tricap is still possible with a non-gilded 1-1-1 amp. I did that myself, though I know what to expect.

57 минут назад, Avienas сказал:

people are exploiting

 

58 минут назад, Avienas сказал:

prevent players from the exit/re-enter strat to do more.

So you basically just called all in game PoE activity exploiting. Cause that how it was designed.

 

1 час назад, Avienas сказал:

Of course if you are doing 4 to 5 tridolons a round, then clearly you have maxed all the important stuff

And here is the main thing. People not just doing 5x3 on random frames with 0 forma while rocking Braton MK-1. Those who do this kind of stuff did not only put a sizable amount of effort to tune their gear (yeah, yeah, meta frames, meta weapons, yada-yada-yada), but also have a ton of practice. Cause practice is required to do 5x3. With just meta frames/weapons you probably will not get full 5 caps in a single night the first time you try it. Same for the second nigh, and the third. Cause meta ~= instant win.

Focus farm? C'mon. You said that yourself, people who do this kind of thing have max out every focus school. They probably did that way before reaching they point of doing 5x3. By doing 1x1 and then 1x3, 2x3, 3x3... You should get my point by now. Focus farm is not screwed by any means at this point. People who still grind for focus are not able to get 700k per hour => their daily cap is still pretty much the thing.

 

Thus all thing considered, I don't see any problems with a minority of people being able to run more than one tricap per night.

[Avienas]

8 hours ago, Darth_Predator said:

Thus all thing considered, I don't see any problems with a minority of people being able to run more than one tricap per night.

Try to read a bit better then skimp details but let me break it down for ya:

• Tridolon means all 3 eidolons at once. I was basically saying that people should be able to respawn teralyst after hydrolyst is taken out. BUT if they leave the instance after the first hydrolyst has been killed, then they cannot start a new instance for 1 hour after leaving it. BUT BUT, they can still do an additional 2 teralyst respawns aka a total of 3 tridolons in a single instance, as long as they do not leave that instance after the first hydrolyst has been downed.

 

• The suggestion i did was to constrain it so people learn to hold thar horses and not be doing so many hydrolysts in a single run, that it could let arcanes still have some weight, since now with syndicate mods(weapons were already dead in value over a year ago pretty much) also losing value, arcanes are pretty much the only other thing to carry any sell value for players beside rivens. Also do not count acolyte mods or prime sets, former has gone to such a gutter value (especially on PS4) that i am sure next time they appear, people will only want to get thar own maiming strike & argon scope and stop there, prime sets can barely hold any decent weight (where 100 plat for a entire set would say was the persistent `average` value for a VERY long time during the relic era), since they sink faster then anyone`s exceptions to think they can get a god roll riven stat setup on a riven in less then 5 kuva rolls on a fresh riven.

 

• Though since you basically stated that people by then would not `care` about focus farming then, the only excuse them to farm eidolons consist of your e-peen stock so you can show off you spammed a rather meh content so many times in the hopes of getting a arcane energize set purely from them alone and likely melted all the other arcanes without thinking some of them are useful in other situations. With the other being just thirsting for arcane because once again, one of the few things that can barely hold any consistent plat value, if you can pull that slot machine and have the last wheel land on energize/grace/etc. 

 

• Honestly, if D.E. wants to keep content accessible for even the new players, then they should see about just making eidolons a instance that you can start up during the time window and it has its own time limit to wrap up while not having the open world clock affecting its own day/night cycle at the time. Plus make sure as someone stated, create a pseudo-quest that leads gets players new to the plains into getting a 1-1-1 type amp before unlocking the ability for them to take on eidolons, with maybe throw in a tutorial on the various annoyances a teralyst throws out so they get a FIRM idea to look into what is necessary for each part. Certainly would not mind some dark souls kind of love of a tutorial to also teach new players its not some new player content, with a scream nuke absolutely destroying them if they brought something squishie, with maybe Onkko quipping that they should of probably got some distance or had taken measures to endure the screams.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Avienas

[(PSN)F0rsak3n_Fruit]

5 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Plus make sure as someone stated, create a pseudo-quest that leads gets players new to the plains into getting a 1-1-1 type amp before unlocking the ability for them to take on eidolons, with maybe throw in a tutorial on the various annoyances a teralyst throws out so they get a FIRM idea to look into what is necessary for each part.

I believe you mentioned that you just skimmed over my post (that's fair enough, I don't always read huge word walls either) so I'll point out that this was in my 4th point as 4c. and someone else agreed to an extent with the suggestion (see below quotes).

12 hours ago, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit said:

c. (Possibly) Requires a gilded custom amp (prevents new players attempting this and harder capture bounties with a mote amp). Provides new dialogue as well as a simple requirement that            can be achieved with some patience. Guides the player into thinking about more than just their warframe setup, greatly encourages new players to build a new toy to use in regular missions and        for this content, requirement flows well with progression of this content.

8 hours ago, Darth_Predator said:

Gilded amp for tricap I can understand, sort of. Tricap is still possible with a non-gilded 1-1-1 amp. I did that myself, though I know what to expect.

As for your psuedo quest part (quote below), this was my 3rd (and a half) point (again I don't blame you). Essentially my idea was to simultaneously teach the steps of eidolon hunt without the need to do the hunt entirely and also offer an alternative to gain standing by introducing set vomvalyst spawn points and guaranteed cores/resources to push the 1/1/1 amp idea. I believed this would also be a good time for dialogue about not underestimating Eidolons but still allowing the player to understand what it is capable of, hence only requiring 1 lure to capture a wounded terralyst that has 2 or 3 synovia broken. This makes it easy enough for a new player to be able to capture the eidolon with a mote amp, and that allows onkko to say something like, "your weapon/s are ineffective and (something about the mote amp being bad, we all know it is), meet with me in my cave and I will be able to help you...". That's the sort of guidance I am trying to establish with my post.

 

12 hours ago, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit said:

3. Add at least one new bounty as a tutorial to capturing: Capture a wounded Terralyst. Has 2/3 synovia broken (requiring only 1 lure). Requires the quest, first completion must be solo (still seems a bit tough for just mote amp imo). Terralyst drops a unique item which must be presented to the quills to allow access to just the terry bounty. Bounty rewards either quills standing or a handful of different cores or both.
    3.5. Add a vomvalyst hunt bounty that rewards a handful of lower tier cores, cetus wisps and/or POE resources like crafted gems/ores or fish parts (anything that makes getting the first new amp easier). This can be used to teach players how to charge a lure, have one stage possibly be to break 1/2/3 synovia of a terralyst to lead into above bounty (inspired by monster hunter for a 2+ part hunt, don't @me about this 🙂 )

 

[Darth_Predator]

5 часов назад, Avienas сказал:

...

I read and reread your first post for like 3 times before posting actually. I see where you are coming from, still I disagree with your first post. And probably we wouldn't be able to discuss this due to both not getting what the other one is trying to say. So lets leave it at that.

5 часов назад, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit сказал:

As for your psuedo quest part (quote below), this was my 3rd (and a half) point (again I don't blame you). Essentially my idea was to simultaneously teach the steps of eidolon hunt without the need to do the hunt entirely and also offer an alternative to gain standing by introducing set vomvalyst spawn points and guaranteed cores/resources to push the 1/1/1 amp idea. I believed this would also be a good time for dialogue about not underestimating Eidolons but still allowing the player to understand what it is capable of, hence only requiring 1 lure to capture a wounded terralyst that has 2 or 3 synovia broken. This makes it easy enough for a new player to be able to capture the eidolon with a mote amp, and that allows onkko to say something like, "your weapon/s are ineffective and (something about the mote amp being bad, we all know it is), meet with me in my cave and I will be able to help you...". That's the sort of guidance I am trying to establish with my post.

Well, you could see that overall I'm supporting your suggestions. I don't feel like some restrictions you are proposing will fit well.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2019-08-26 at 6:32 AM, (PS4)F0rsak3n_Fruit said:

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Some of them don't seem too bad. Of course it's about Eidolons, which are really endgame type content. So most of the hand-holding shouldn't be required. Locking people out of it because they haven't gotten far enough in the story. 

[0_The_F00l]

In essence I am OK with a few more conditions for Tridolon bounty (and only the bounty, trying to do free roam captures with no gear is fine ) 

If you pick the bounty it means you know at least the basics of what is expected. 

Teralyst bounty doesn't need any specific conditions and does not need too much pre-planning, it is OK to stay as is and is manageable with the mote (we managed when it was the only amp available) , it getting unlocked with simply gaining access to the quills (and so the mote amp and whatever pre requisites are needed for that) is sufficient. 

The only previous bounty condition for Tridolon should be finishing a Teralyst capture bounty, doing other regular bounties requires a different gear and builds than those so other t3 or t5 bounties are not a good indicator. 

A Rank 2 with quills is fine for the Tridolon bounty (and only bounty) as a standing requirement according to me. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by 0_The_F00l