Enemies react to invisible frame... possible Bug? [Fixed]

[NocheLuz]

It have been a while since 'Saint of Altra' update have been implemented for PC. I have notice an incredible bug that make almost all of Stealth/Invisible Frames not act as Stealth/Invisible anymore. At first, I thought I would not want to make another thread about this kind of bug (the Stealth Scan) since there are a few of them already. But since a week has pass by and no fixed for this possible Bug yet. I need to make sure this is a Bug and not a possible nerf to Silent guns/Stealth Frames.

In summary, this bug make playing as invisible Frames almost impossible. The detail are below.

- Enemies react to gunfire 'Sound' even if the guns are Silent. The enemies will swarm where you are even if there are no indication of them being know where you are (possible react to gunfire/bow fire sound). They do go Full Alert (not just walking around but running around) and will try to hide from you even if they do not even close to detected you/seeing you yet.

- Some Enemies will fire their gun at you even if they can't see you (previously, Nox will do this if they go full alert even if they can't see you at all. Nox will still shooting at you knowing full well where you are). They'll mostly do this if they're on Rampart (Grineer). They'll fire at the last known gunfire sound location. Basically, if you move from where you last fire your gun they'll just shoot that way (that is why I know it's gunfire sound that cause this possible Bug). But if you shoot while moving they'll also shooting at your position even if the guns are Silent (which should not make any gunfire sound).

- Instead of Caution (walking, point the gun around). They'll now go full alert (running around and take cover) when their friends died. They'll also try to hide from your last gunfire location. Melee enemies will swarm at your location if you didn't move from the last time you've fire your weapon. Even if the weapon are Silent.

- Because of this Bug. Most enemies will be impossible to do a Stealth kill/Stealth Frames cannot do a Stealth mission at all. They do react to your gunfire sound after all. Right now the only solution is either not firing a gun the whole mission or kill every enemies that go full alert. However, the only savior is that the enemies will not trigger an alarm if they cannot see you. Since they only react to gunfire they'll most likely not trigger an alarm in Spy Vault.

I think this is a Bug. There are no way enemies react to Silent gun's gunfire sound like this.

Thank you very much.

Edit : As of 21 September 2019 This bug have been fixed.

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by NocheLuz

[Cherryfull]

Was wondering is it just me or someone else having problems in stealth missions and here I am. Enemy AI is getting wonky during stealth missions. Glad I'm not alone. Hope DE will look into it. Now it's almost impossible to get stealth kill affinity multiplier even if I use silent weapons and stealth frame. I'm playing with Ivara most of the time. Not sure when this problem appeared tho (I was away from the game for more than a week), but it should be recent updates tho.

[--TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe]

This isn't a bug, this is how their AI reacts ~usually~ and always has. Realistically even when invisible, if they are alert, they are going to know where you are and track you, it is stupid and annoying cause they clump up next to you even though they can't see you, but this has been a thing for years, I think what it was supposed to be was enemies tracking you while invisible and staying near as if they ~could~ see a shimmer like the predator, but now that there are so many mobs and AI these days, they all push each other into you and clump, their AI is outdated since warframe used to be... hard... and not a one shot mass mob murder simulation. 

Also they shoot in your last known location to them, this is realistic, if you see and invisible person in a direction and have a gun, you gon' shoot over there boo. And also they are gonna keep their guns at the ready since there is a space assassin running around, it all can be explained.

 

Now there actually IS a bug that has been around for years, killed invisibility for me. Basically due to lag and the latency in the network, your guy sometimes goes partially invisible rather than full, and the enemies can see you and fully attack you, its due to lag, I have tested, and it sucks that it is still around.

[NocheLuz]

2 hours ago, --TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe said:

This isn't a bug, this is how their AI reacts ~usually~ and always has. Realistically even when invisible, if they are alert, they are going to know where you are and track you, it is stupid and annoying cause they clump up next to you even though they can't see you, but this has been a thing for years, I think what it was supposed to be was enemies tracking you while invisible and staying near as if they ~could~ see a shimmer like the predator, but now that there are so many mobs and AI these days, they all push each other into you and clump, their AI is outdated since warframe used to be... hard... and not a one shot mass mob murder simulation. 

Also they shoot in your last known location to them, this is realistic, if you see and invisible person in a direction and have a gun, you gon' shoot over there boo. And also they are gonna keep their guns at the ready since there is a space assassin running around, it all can be explained.

 

Now there actually IS a bug that has been around for years, killed invisibility for me. Basically due to lag and the latency in the network, your guy sometimes goes partially invisible rather than full, and the enemies can see you and fully attack you, its due to lag, I have tested, and it sucks that it is still around.

It isn't realistic though, since I said many, MANY times in the thread that the guns are silent... How do they track the firing sound if the gun are silent? If your gun are not Silent that is what you'll get if you go invisible with either Loki or Ash. But the guns I'm using are all Silent and still got the same result as Alarming level sound. I don't think that is intended, or else the only thing you needed Silent guns is to not break Ivara's Prowl (although, this bug make them still track your gunfire sound).

Also, I do said that previously enemies will go Caution (point the gun around and walking, which is realistic enough) but right now they either go Alert or Full Alert (point the gun around at your position and running around, they don't even know you were there). It still can't explain how they track your gunfire with Silent guns though...

But I appreciate your comments on this. But since I'm mostly play invisible Frames, this bug make Stealth mission/Invisible Frames almost pointless. Since they'll know you were there even if they cannot see you or heard your gunfire after all...

[Vit0Corleone]

Just now, NocheLuz said:

It isn't realistic though, since I said many, MANY times in the thread that the guns are silent... How do they track the firing sound if the gun are silent? If your gun are not Silent that is what you'll get if you go invisible with either Loki or Ash. But the guns I'm using are all Silent and still got the same result as Alarming level sound. I don't think that is intended, or else the only thing you needed Silent guns is to not break Ivara's Prowl (although, this bug make them still track your gunfire sound).

Also, I do said that previously enemies will go Caution (point the gun around and walking, which is realistic enough) but right now they either go Alert or Full Alert (point the gun around at your position and running around, they don't even know you were there). It still can't explain how they track your gunfire with Silent guns though...

But I appreciate your comments on this. But since I'm mostly play invisible Frames, this bug make Stealth mission/Invisible Frames almost pointless. Since they'll know you were there even if they cannot see you or heard your gunfire after all...

They also become alerted if you use your melee close to them while invisible, even if you don't hit anyone.

I'm not sure if this is new behavior, don't recall seeing it before thou.

[sinnae]

Invis doesn't mean immune, enemies will still try to track last known location, become alert when they see body parts and corpses, etc. But it does seem like something is funky since the mainline, there are so many reports of stealth feeling less stealth-y than usual. 🤷‍♀️

[NocheLuz]

53 minutes ago, Vit0Corleone said:

They also become alerted if you use your melee close to them while invisible, even if you don't hit anyone.

I'm not sure if this is new behavior, don't recall seeing it before thou.

I don't normally use Melee but I did saw this behavior before. It is either you swing it too close to the enemies or your swing hit nearby wall/ground (it has to be hit very close like 2-3 meters away for enemies to notice the striking sound). The enemies will enter Caution (put the guns up and walking around) which will make stealth kill impossible. Although, I doubt this is what you mean since it is a very normal behavior of enemies react to striking sound/bullets hit the wall/ground.

32 minutes ago, sinnae said:

Invis doesn't mean immune, enemies will still try to track last known location, become alert when they see body parts and corpses, etc. But it does seem like something is funky since the mainline, there are so many reports of stealth feeling less stealth-y than usual. 🤷‍♀️

That is what the enemies previouly do. They'll walking around the area investigating what is happening (since they can't see you so they don't know you were there). But if your guns are not Silent they'll swarm your last known gunfire location but not firing at you. It is a very normal behavior and why Aungment like 'Hush Invisibility' is born. But right now even if your guns are silent they'll still notice your gunfire and swarm you. It may related to many other stealth/invisibility bug such as Scanning Alert the targets/nearby targets. Although, I didn't really tested that far.

[--TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe]

No like.. lol literally as I said before, realistically... guns don't need to make noise to alert someone, if they hear a shot hit near them or hit a buddy of theirs next to them, they gonna realize that "I am in danger", this is common, basic knowledge. If you in danger, don't let the danger get you. In a world of invisible space assassins that are well known of, if something invisible shoots or hits a wall loudly, its gonna spook the enemy and they will be aware of you, but not necessarily know of you. They still gonna stay alert. This is normal gameplay. Stealth is broken in this game now as of.. 4? 5? years since there is so many enemies, stealth doesn't work anymore since things like this occur.

[NocheLuz]

6 minutes ago, --TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe said:

No like.. lol literally as I said before, realistically... guns don't need to make noise to alert someone, if they hear a shot hit near them or hit a buddy of theirs next to them, they gonna realize that "I am in danger", this is common, basic knowledge. If you in danger, don't let the danger get you. In a world of invisible space assassins that are well known of, if something invisible shoots or hits a wall loudly, its gonna spook the enemy and they will be aware of you, but not necessarily know of you. They still gonna stay alert. This is normal gameplay. Stealth is broken in this game now as of.. 4? 5? years since there is so many enemies, stealth doesn't work anymore since things like this occur.

Yes, that is why I said it's not realistic for enemies to react to non-existance gunfire sound. Since the gun label as 'Silent'. But I think you think I don't know about bullets hit the ground/wall... I did say that in my previous reply that it is very normal for them to react to bullets hitting solid object. What is being the Bug right here, however. That they do react and 'Know' you were there even if they don't even saw you for a second. They swarm your position even if your guns are silent and they can't even see you. If you think Stealth right now is the same as before the 'Saint of Altra' update. I prefer you try it yourself with 'Silent' gun and tell me how enemies react to non-existance gunfire sound are realistic.

Also, Stleath has always been like that but right now it's even more broken. The topic I layout just a sample of how difference they react from before.

[--TheGoodDoctorSloth.exe]

Ah that specific mechanic, yeah.. I know, it totally kills stealth. I think it happens due to what I described. It really is stupid. THAT part, I do agree is probably a bug, but it could also be an outdated mechanic which at this point.. well is still a bug since it doesn't work with today's gameplay.

[Moscatinka]

This IS a bug, and a quite obvious one. The mobs HEAR the sound (or act as if they do), absolutely no question about it. Not only does this happen with guns with a Hush mod, but also with guns that are innately silenced like Baza or any bow or throwing knife/star. It is a clear change between how it was before and after Saint of Altra. I have no idea how anyone gets off claiming this is normal when every stealth player has had their gameplay made terribly annoying. DE needs to acknowledge it and fix this fast because currently every stealth frame is totally messed up because of it. It has been 2 weeks without even an acknowledgement, it's starting to become ridiculous.

95% Loki/Ivara player. Yes I'm pissed.

 

[Bezo31]

I can confirm that too. It happend to me often that i was killed with Loki with a one-shot from about level 60 Grineers WHILE INVISIBLE even with the mod (Hushed Invisibility) equiped and doing run and gun at the same time.

[NocheLuz]

It's has been 2 weeks since the update and 1 week since I created this thread. IDK if there are any other thread that DE acknowledge on the Bug yet? Or this change is intended to nerf the Silent Guns and Stealth gameplay. But I hope there are some answer to this question and a Fixed to this Bug. This is getting annoying as the time gone by. Since you can't really 'Stealth' and 'Invisible' when you're suppose to be Stealth and Invisible.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Can't confirm. Just happened to be doing a bounty earlier and my silenced Rubico wasn't getting the enemies to shoot my hidden Ivara.

I do think that the AI needs an update in how it reacts to stealthed threats though. Even when the weapon isn't silenced (for non-Ivaras who stay unseen) the enemies shouldn't know with pinpoint precision where the sound came from, they should have some error margins when it comes to the exact distance and angle relative to themselves.

Wouldn't help much against the AOE units or grenades, but if all the more precise enemies have to go on is a 'bang', then you'd think they'd only have about a one in three chance of pointing in the right area, or would fire a spray of bullets in an uncertain arc hoping to hit the concealed target, right?

[NocheLuz]

31 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Wouldn't help much against the AOE units or grenades, but if all the more precise enemies have to go on is a 'bang', then you'd think they'd only have about a one in three chance of pointing in the right area, or would fire a spray of bullets in an uncertain arc hoping to hit the concealed target, right?

Yeah, I thought the same too. But right now enemies will react to guns that silient like they aren't, they'll pinpoint your location if you firing the gun very near to them (like the non-silent/alarming level guns work). I really want AI to react like something is wrong and sure that there are enemies in the area before spray the bullets though. Since they can hit their ally if they spray bullets everytime they wants to confirm something. Then their gunfire can alert the nearby enemies making the whole room to go on alert if you not killing them fast enough.

But right now they only alert due to your gunfire sound (which the gun is Silent and shouldn't produce any sound). Not that their AI has change or something. Which make Silent gun almost useless and their only purpose right now is to make Ivara not break the Prowl.

[Ikusias]

Stealth in general is currently a farce considering that:

- apparently all enemies use the same AI active during survivals: they path towards your last position proportionally fast to the amount of radar mods you carry - i.e. Ivara is automatically screwed due to innate radar?!

- brocken enemy turning animations: ofthen enemies turn on a dime to shoot you, particularly egregious with grineer turrets slow as molasses for us, noscope 180° for the AS (artificial stupidity) of the game - thus negating very ofthen the chance for stealthy takedowns;

- enemies can move away during finishers (while we are animation locked during them) and getting alerted.. and alerting the entire area

- some enemies spawn automatically alerted for no reason

- cover based stealth doesn't work: enemies spot you trough walls and are always avare of your exact position - climbing over a door, using height difference or hiding in shadows: all worthless

- enemy AI doesn't breack aggro after locking on you unless someting else catches its attention - most warframe powers are a crapshoot at this (exception Octavia)

- enemies zero in on your position/the origin of an attack with wich you missed and not the bullets/arrow/whatever impact point even when it's much nearer to them - with silenced or silent weapons;

- invisibility simply shuts down enemy attack options, the AI remains aware of your position even if you change room and will immediately follow the moment you drop out of invisibility: just try cloacking in a room full of enemies aware of you after you attacked them, then move out of sight of all of them and drop the power, they will run immediately to your position!

- stealth kills counting only with single shot kill... makes no fragging sense considering how multishot is simultaneous and that what should count is that the target dies without alerting anyone!

Tl:Dr current status of stealth in game is miserable due to the horde shooter Ai of the mobs and lack of measures to accomodate believable stealth tactics. particularly jarring if you played in the past any Metal Gear title...

 

[NocheLuz]

From : https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1129207-arbitrations-revisited-hotfix-2576/

On 2019-09-19 at 2:13 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

Changes:

• Enemies may now “react” (without changing their Alert state) to you by stopping and looking around if you shoot a Silent weapon within 2-3m of them several times quickly. 

I'm very happy they 'Fixed' this bug. I'd tested it in the game. The enemies no longer 'Run' to your position when you firing the Silent Guns with Invisible Frames. They also take a lots of gun shot just from them to notice the muffle sound (mostly, Sniper and Bow that have low fire rate will mostly go unnotice). The greatest thing is that, the enemies no longer go into Alert State where they know your position and try to kill you when you firing the Silent Guns with Invisible Frames.

Thank you for the fixed. I've update this thread so people know that the bug have already been fixed.

[BlindStalker]

Was the alerted Grineer on rampart firing at your last gunfire position from your OP fixed as well, or is it still bugged? This would actually explain that one time where I encountered this bug (a long while back) where I had a grineer firing at me while invisible, while I was throwing hikou stars at another enemy and he just started shooting at me with no explanation.... it made me genuinely paranoid about every single grineer rampart that I see and now I destroy those instantly on sight.... good to know my paranoia wasn't paranoia. But was it fixed?

(I'm sort of taking a bit of a break from the game, though I suppose I can do some light testing afterwards later to check in on that bug)