Change Concentrated Arrow as Exilus?

[Zekkii]

4 hours ago, bibmobello said:

You don't build for build strength for survivals or other long missions because you will run out of energy immediately and you will die every seconds, for Eidolon and some assassination i bring the +300 strength build and some Mesa don't understand how the bosses died till he see the stats...

Speak for yourself, I have no issue bringing 200%+ Strength builds on Ivara and going endless with more than enough energy.  Just don't make an overzealous blind rage build and you'll be fine. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Hehe, interestingly enough my main Tenchu Assassin Ivara build is built around Infiltrate.  😀 It works because I found out a very long time ago that I can get away with only having 95% duration as long as my efficiency is max or very close to it.  It's a build I use for everything except the open world maps.  My second Ivara is just for those.  

Other than the largely irrelevant security laser thing, the only 'net positive' Infiltrate affords you is going faster on ziplines and her Dashwires when in prowl versus non-prowl.

With the current history it's not at all unlikely they address that as a 'bug' and make baseline Prowled movement glacial on there too.

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I didn't say you should not build for PS for Artemis Bow builds. I said people usually discard high PS and Artemis in favor of cheaper invisibility. At least I hardly see an Ivara using her exsalted bow.
My point was, that Frames can require broad stat destribution due to their kits. As such, you either specialize; or spread stats in favor of an extensive tool kit.

That's more to do with the needs of the rest of the kit than anything bad about Artemis itself:

Unless augmented, no Quiver arrows benefit from strength at all. They do, however, have a relatively mediocre radius in Cloak and Sleep. Overextended is valued, limiting Strength. Almost every Ivara player who dared to run without bonus range has probably been shot at because their Sentinel peeked up outside of a Cloak bubble hiding the frame.

Navigator has the inherent issue with Duration anti-synergy and the uniquely indefinite scaling of energy cost over time. Although it likes Strength (and Transient Fortitude happens to work with the antisynergy) it's relegated to niche/specialised use because it doesn't otherwise play nice with the kit.

Prowl likes everything but Strength as well - although for ~Ivara reasons~ you have to compensate that Overextended negative or you get dud-steals on already the worst loot-bonus ability in the game.

You can make an 'average' strength build with still fairly decent output, but the premiums are far too costly to have higher-end, less-efficient builds work out.

 

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is only because people seem to think Prowl can go over the Efficiency limit.  It can't.  Once you have max efficiency, you have the lowest drain possible on Prowl.  this is with a Duration of just 100%.  So having max efficiency and then having high duration just for Prowl is just wasting stat points.  Drain will never go lower than .25.  Once you have a drain of .25, then more duration is only effecting Cloak, Sleep Arrows, and Prowl steal time.  The latter I never really depended on for long survivals anyway as keeping your kill rate up with increase energy Orb drops with the same energy per time ratio.  Having Vacuum to suck up orbs as a distance makes this even easier. 

Prowl is an opaque mess, though. Not only do you have the drain per second to worry about, you have to consider the extra costs and implications with stats, there's no wonder people get confused. Remember how long it was before the fail-steal chance was even shown in the game?

The listed energy cost is the cost for standing still.

Double that cost for the crime of not being AFK (moving around).

Add a flat cost of 2 energy (not affected by the channelling Duration/Efficiency codepend, only flat Efficiency) for every melee strike - including each strike in multi-hit finishers.

Add a flat cost of 10 energy (as above) for every tick of damage ever suffered while Prowling. Arc traps, DoT statuses (special mention for Venom Eximi and other stack-happy status afflicting foes), everything counts.

If you care about the steal, you need duration and range for it to accomplish anything without losing targets all the time, and obviously desire to meet the 100% strength threshold to avoid those random failures

 

So yeah - you can't just overlook any one stat on Ivara without falling afoul of the senseless limiters.

[bibmobello]

1 hour ago, Zekkii said:

Speak for yourself, I have no issue bringing 200%+ Strength builds on Ivara and going endless with more than enough energy.  Just don't make an overzealous blind rage build and you'll be fine. 

Genius for strength build i mean over 280, i have 170-214 on the survival build... 

BTW with concentrated arrow you will lose the puchthrough even using shred on the Artemis so piercing navigator it's useless and considering Artemis is mainly puncture even with hunter munition it will not proc slash very often. Yes it's fun till noob level, then it will be much faster to kill them without concentrated arrow.

Edited September 15, 2019 by bibmobello

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Build around Infiltrate? That mod is a catastrophic waste of design space, much less something to actively build around.

Ivara shouldn't be painfully crippled in Prowl, no other stealth frames suffer that (plus all the other Prowl caveats), so the movement speed factor is irrelevant - should be baked back into the baseline.

the strength of Infiltrate is being able to go basically the same speed as say a Volt or Saryn, while still in Prowl. or potentially faster in short distance bursts when getting the acceleration of leaving a zipline.

 

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Navigator has the inherent issue with Duration anti-synergy

that's not an important problem in almost any situation seeing as in 99.9% of content Navigator is used to control Projectiles far more than to actually strengthen them.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

the worst loot-bonus ability in the game.

Prowl is almost the best l00t Multiplying Ability in the game. literally the only l00t Ability that can beat Prowl is Pilfering Swarm, provided that the Enemy stays inside of the Ability area.
all of the other l00t Multiplying Abilities are about farming Resources from Trash Units more than getting that sweet bonus l00t from that one Enemy you care about.
forcing a second roll on that specific Miniboss or Et Cetera is pretty incredible.
the only other l00t Ability that is even relevant past these two, is Desecrate assuming you're not looking for a particular Enemy and just more everything, and can have the potential to average the best if it's an Enemy you can biforcate.
but even so, that's a max of 1 + (0.65^4), which is not intrinsically superior to 1 + 1. depends on how valuable each particular Enemy is.

 

 

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

the premiums are far too costly to have higher-end, less-efficient builds work out.

no they aren't. not in this age of mountains of Mods/Gear that can let one do basically anything.

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So yeah - you can't just overlook any one stat on Ivara

just like how every Warframe should be.
and ofcourse Players that do just a bit of thinking can still have an Ability Stat(s) pushed way up without crushing the rest of them.

 

- - - - - 

25 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

considering Artemis is mainly puncture even with hunter munition it will not proc slash very often. Yes it's fun till noob level, then it will be much faster to kill them without concentrated arrow.

okay? Artemis Bow without the Augment is either in the same boat or this is just hogwash.
neither have any relevant Slash weighting, and a 30% Chance per Crit is either universally a high or low Chance.

unless, perhaps you use Ivara only for Killing non-staged Bosses, where vanilla Artemis Bow can apply more Status to a singular or low number of Targets.
Concentrated Arrow obviously performs better vs groups seeing as it's a Rocket Launcher with dynamic Range.

Edited September 15, 2019 by taiiat

[bibmobello]

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about., you don't even use Ivara with 1.2%... Yes prowl is good but with navigator you can reach even 20X damage on projectile weapons and the 20X is on the final damage and yes you can add even the head shot bonus on it...

For now considering you can't have punchtrough at all , concentrated arrow is a only downgrade. Try to kill level 155-165 bombards in the simulacrum with and without concentrated arrow you will understand it's a waste of space. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by bibmobello

[Ballas]

Exilus should indeed include Augment mods, as you're using an augmentation on a slot that has been unlocked using either crafting or platinum. It's part of the Warframe itself and would make modding way easier in my general opinion.

[bibmobello]

44 minutes ago, Ballas said:

Exilus should indeed include Augment mods, as you're using an augmentation on a slot that has been unlocked using either crafting or platinum. It's part of the Warframe itself and would make modding way easier in my general opinion.

BTW i made some experiment, concentrated arrow with total radiation damage without multi shot and almost 300 strength can destroy all the 20 level 155 eximus bombards in few seconds but it's actually unusable  in a real game play and a glaive is faster. They should remove the punch trough limitation , you can ask in the feedback section to sign a petition.--

Edited September 15, 2019 by bibmobello

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

So yeah - you can't just overlook any one stat on Ivara without falling afoul of the senseless limiters.

This is something I always knew.  It fits with how I do things anyway.  😄

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

Concentrated Arrow obviously performs better vs groups seeing as it's a Rocket Launcher with dynamic Range.

Sadly, this is only true if you go all in on range.  Which still leaves the issue of the following...

3 hours ago, bibmobello said:

concentrated arrow with total radiation damage without multi shot and almost 300 strength can destroy all the 20 level 155 eximus bombards in few seconds but it's actually unusable  in a real game play and a glaive is faster.

 

I still think if Concentrated Arrow actually CONCENTRATED all the arrows it would be a much better augment overall.  Then you wouldn't be so gimped against enemies that don't have heads or Bosses when using it.  

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, bibmobello said:

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about., you don't even use Ivara with 1.2%...

this is where one can introspect and tell that their argument has run out of track, because they have tried to read some Profile Stats and trying to read something out of them.

considering the amount of sheer time over the past 6 years i've used Saryn, do you really think that hardly any Warframes are going to make a significant dent on the Percentage of use?
it will take me a couple solid years or more of playing to even say, shift the time split towards Saryn Prime over Saryn. because there's just so much time logged on the latter already.

 

"i don't like the style of this" is not "this isn't useful".

24 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Sadly, this is only true if you go all in on range.  Which still leaves the issue of the following...

just like with 250+ Strength for Infiltrate, people can make pretty much anything they want work.
hitting ~14 Meters if one chose to wouldn't be crazy to do Mod Slots wise. and still leaving more than sufficient space for the other Ability Stats.
i know you know this.

 

 

 

unrelated, if people wanted Charged Shots w/ Concentrated Arrow to get like 0.7m Punch-Through, go nuts.

Edited September 16, 2019 by taiiat

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

considering the amount of sheer time over the past 6 years i've used Saryn, do you really think that hardly any Warframes are going to make a significant dent on the Percentage of use?
it will take me a couple solid years or more of playing to even say, shift the time split towards Saryn Prime over Saryn. because there's just so much time logged on the latter already.

This is very true. Any time you have a lot of playtime logged and it's mostly on one frame, it will take A LOT for other things to show more than 1 or 2%.  this is when you have to look at total playtime and kills with said frame/weapon instead of the percentage. Even then it can still be off by a lot.  

8 minutes ago, taiiat said:

just like with 250+ Strength for Infiltrate, people can make pretty much anything they want work.
hitting ~14 Meters if one chose to wouldn't be crazy to do Mod Slots wise. and still leaving more than sufficient space for the other Ability Stats.
i know you know this.

Fair enough.  You got me there, and I can't deny it either.  😄  

[bibmobello]

10 minutes ago, taiiat said:

this is where one can introspect and tell that their argument has run out of track, because they have tried to read some Profile Stats and trying to read something out of them.

considering the amount of sheer time over the past 6 years i've used Saryn, do you really think that hardly any Warframes are going to make a significant dent on the Percentage of use?
it will take me a couple solid years or more of playing to even say, shift the time split towards Saryn Prime over Saryn. because there's just so much time logged on the latter already.

 

"i don't like the style of this" is not "this isn't useful".

just like with 250+ Strength for Infiltrate, people can make pretty much anything they want work.
hitting ~14 Meters if one chose to wouldn't be crazy to do Mod Slots wise. and still leaving more than sufficient space for the other Ability Stats.
i know you know this.

 

 

 

unrelated, if people wanted Charged Shots w/ Concentrated Arrow to get like 0.7m Punch-Through, go nuts.

Just take ivara put at least 2 forma on it and try piercing navigator+empowered quiver+ a zenistar + mutalist quanta or a glive prime using navigator, it's useless to speech... Now if you really used ivara you should have an idea what concentrated arrow+ piercing navigator could realize but they removed the punch through at all...

[DatDarkOne]

33 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Now if you really used ivara you should have an idea what concentrated arrow+ piercing navigator could realize but they removed the punch through at all...

There's no way DE was gonna do that.  It's THE main reason the Arca Plasmor + Navigator combo was nerfed into non-existance because it allowed you to do just that without even needing any augments.  

[taiiat]

46 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

Just take ivara put at least 2 forma on it and try piercing navigator+empowered quiver+ a zenistar + mutalist quanta or a glive prime using navigator, it's useless to speech... Now if you really used ivara you should have an idea what concentrated arrow+ piercing navigator could realize but they removed the punch through at all...

when did Zenidisk, Mutalist borko maff, and Glaives come into this? Artemis Bow in either form would obviously... completely clash with using any of these in any practical manner.
we were only talking about Artemis Bow with or without Concentrated Arrow. you're moving the goalposts now, man.

46 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

if you really used ivara you should have an idea what concentrated arrow+ piercing navigator could realize but they removed the punch through at all...

that's very obvious what it would do, and ofcourse when the two Augments first existed in the game together, i had hopes of hilarity, but it was not to be.

 

 

54 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

this is when you have to look at total playtime and kills with said frame/weapon instead of the percentage. Even then it can still be off by a lot.  

especially if one played 'from the start' essentially, where Profile Stats were broken in varying degrees until about June/July 2013, leaving several months where Stats were essentially untracked. i have about an additional 750hr of Saryn time that isn't tracked by the Profile because of that (and about 250hr of other stuff).

Edited September 16, 2019 by taiiat

[BlindStalker]

@SpringRocker Pretty much we want a dedicated augment slot at this point. Because from one Ivara player to another, you realistically won't get a "satisfying feeling" concentrated arrow build, there's always going to be something that you will ultimately have to sacrifice to make up for concentrated arrow's gimmick, but you already know this (basically I'm in agreement with your OP). I'm not trying to be confrontational (but I'll admit, I might be a jaded Ivara player at this point), the entire rest of this reply is just my 2 cents opinion, that's all. If you actually like Concentrated Arrow and want to build for it, go for it. If you end up not liking it enough to warrant building around it, then skip it.

I've tried giving concentrated arrow a lot of slack but I realistically never use this build for any actual serious missions. I would rather take along regular vanilla Artemis Bow over Concentrated Arrow 99/100 times over any given day, if I actually need to make use of Artemis Bow in the mission. My personal opinion, I feel like this augment was created for people who don't play Ivara on a regular basis, for the players who were unimpressed by vanilla Artemis Bow and couldn't be arsed to actually mod for it properly. I feel like, the Ivara mains who actually use Ivara constantly with well built Artemis Bows, rarely use this augment for a serious mission type. Concentrated Arrow looks flashy, it's interesting, it makes Artemis Bow "look exotic" with its big explosions. It looks cool... and would catch the attention of non-Ivara players better so that they might try her out for something that isn't the spy pit-hole that they regulated her to. It would appeal better to them... for maybe about 5 minutes before they go back to playing their "regular setup" with whatever frame they actually seriously use. Concentrated arrow feels gimmicky to me, but it is genuinely an alternative way to play with Ivara for those who want it, so I can't fault the augment for trying a different setup for her (although you could achieve almost similar effect by simply giving Ivara a 'Hushed' Lenz, explosive huntress bow right there if you really wanted. Granted, the major advantage that Con-arrow has over Lenz is that it doesn't cause self-damage so you can't get yourself killed with it). The build I have for Concentrated Arrow is Zangoth's build (his video is here if you want to look at it). But it still has to give up duration and cuts into her efficiency, at best, still not perfect to me, but its the only concentrated arrow build that i found to be reasonably balanced.

On 2019-09-15 at 5:38 AM, taiiat said:

and Concentrated Arrow requires even broader investment considerations. 
and yet, one can still easily have positive Duration, high/max Efficiency, and close to or greater than 200% both Strength and Range.
sounds like everything fits just fine to me.

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational or pretentious, but taiiat I'm not convinced that one can actually get those exact stats on a Concentrated Arrow build, but maybe close. But I am curiously interested in this Con-Arrow build, mainly because Ivara is practically the only one I'll play with and we're getting into theory crafting builds for her, so that's why I'm interested. Con-Arrow builds always strike me as builds that must sacrifice something good to be half-decent.  

Let's be specific, what stats did you have in mind for this theory con-arrow build?

- Range: 200% (would love to have at least this amount of range or more on Con-Arrow)

- Strength: 200% (Okay now this would be wonderful to have, but usually, strength sits very low in a con-arrow build because everything had to be sacrificed to build up range)

- Efficiency: 170% (this is to me "high efficiency", at least 170% or more. Though I suppose 160% can be acceptable to a certain point. I don't consider 130% to be high, but rather baseline efficiency and it means that Ivara can't spam abilities as much, which is kind of needed since her energy pool is her ammo pool for the entire build. What high efficiency number did you have in mind?)

- Duration: 100% (at least positive duration, so no negative dipping under 100%)

What mods were you thinking in mind to actually get this concentrated arrow build that you proposed (not including arcanes, just looking at raw base state numbers)?

I genuinely tried to actually theory-craft the concentrated arrow build with your proposed stats. I can only come 'close' but not quite matching the proposed criteria .

Build #01

- 190.00% power range (close, but not 200%)

- 184.00% power strength (close, but still not 200%)

- 150.00% power efficiency (only at half efficiency)

- 105.50% power duration

- build: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ivara/t_30_4330230230_4-1-5-13-5-3-34-8-5-46-0-2-55-2-4-411-7-10-479-4-10-615-9-5-873-3-10-887-6-3_46-4-4-5-55-5-873-16-479-7-13-7-887-9-411-8-34-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-42/

Build #02

- 205.00% power range

- 194.00% power strength (just under 200%)

- 130.00% power efficiency (baseline efficiency)

- 100.50% power duration

- build: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ivara/t_30_4330030230_4-1-5-5-2-5-13-5-3-34-8-5-46-0-1-411-7-10-615-9-5-859-4-5-873-3-10-887-6-3_46-4-4-5-5-5-873-16-859-7-13-7-887-9-411-8-34-14-615-9_0/en/1-0-42/

Build #03

- 190.00% power range (still under 200%)

- 194.00% power strength (still under 200%)

- 175.00% power efficiency

- 105.00% power duration

This one actually comes the closest but it comes with such an annoying caveat, it incorporates energy conversion into the build so your strength actually oscillates between 194% and 144% based on the RNG nature of energy orb drops. I don't like that because your power strength is purely conditional at that point. Sometimes it will be good, other times, it will be crap. 

- build: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ivara/t_30_2330030230_4-4-5-5-2-4-34-8-5-55-1-4-479-0-10-613-9-5-726-7-5-859-5-5-873-3-10-887-6-3_479-7-55-5-5-4-873-16-4-9-859-4-887-9-726-8-34-14-613-9_0/en/1-0-42/

I can't quite get the stats proposed, so I am genuinely curious as to what what mods you would use to achieve the proposed stats above.

On 2019-09-15 at 2:04 PM, taiiat said:

all of the other l00t Multiplying Abilities are about farming Resources from Trash Units more than getting that sweet bonus l00t from that one Enemy you care about.
forcing a second roll on that specific Miniboss or Et Cetera is pretty incredible.

Except Ivara can't steal loot from bosses (including mini-bosses), seriously, she lost that ability somewhere around 3 months after she was released.

Update 18 - Ivara released (December 3rd, 2015)

Update 18.5 - ' Ivara’s Prowl will no longer be able to steal from boss-type enemies.' (March 4th, 2016) - this balance change is still in effect to this day. 

For nearly her entire life, Ivara has never been able to steal from boss-type characters, this includes mini-bosses. How can I tell if some enemy is a mini-boss? Easy, just check if prowl works on them or not.

Ivara can't steal from any given boss. She also does not work on mini-boss type characters as well

- She can't steal Stalker Accolades (can't double dip on meme strike drop chances).

- She can't steal from any of the executioners from Sedna's Arena (can't contribute in endo farms unlike Nekros), they're considered mini-bosses too. 

- She can't steal more beacons from hacked ambulases for players trying to stock pile nav beacons to actually do the ambulas boss fight.

- She can't steal from any of the mini-bosses that spawn from the open world bounties, because they're considered mini-bosses in the code (like the Aerial Commander who drops 'Kinetic diversion' (a rare archwing mod) or on Orb Vallis with the corpus targets like Corpus Supra Target or the Vivisect Director from the bounty etc. Btw, sad part, Nekros CAN actually dip loot on those boss type characters, which further proves that Nekros is still de-facto loot king).

- She can't steal from the Gustrag 3 or Zenuka to get another roll on Brakk parts or Detron parts for those players who still need to get that weapon.

- She can't steal from the Silver Grove Specters

- She can't steal from any of the special bosses that have spawned during all these nightwave seasons (definitely not the Wolf, nor any of his minions, nor the current infested Zealot Heralds spawning from this nightwave).

In actual overview, Ivara is nearly the worst looting thief frame in the game simply, for not being able to steal from high priority boss targets. Ivara at best, steals from mainly the trash as well, like any of the other looting frames. Heck, Nekros can sometimes steal from 'boss-type' characters too. Nekros is never getting dethroned any time as being looting king. Farming parties will always want Nekros, while Hydroid or Khora follow in tow, they may no longer be able to stack together due to Update 25.0 looting changes, but no one ever screams, 'we need to get Ivara in our group to help on this farm'. She nearly is always last pick for it. She can be used for general mat resource farming, but majority of players are never going to have her as first pick for that type of role. Not to be a jerk or anything, but the only one who's actually slightly worst at farming for resources is Atlas, because he doesn't have a 100% guaranteed drop, but also because his looting augment doesn't work on bosses either. Sorry Atlas mains, I'm not trying to throw you under the bus.

Here's what Ivara can actually prowl for which might potentially be useful:

1. Life support capsules modules - actually useful when going for longer runs, usually solo, but multiplayer can work as long as the Ivara player has the right build and is not careless to get caught in crossfire

2. War blueprint parts (and well those funny sentient mods) - from sentients spawned on Lua or elsewhere. I'm surprised that she can actually prowl from these dudes, these dudes are surprisingly not coded as bosses nor mini-bosses.

3. Dojo pigment colours - assuming your clan dojo didn't pick a boss type character to farm the dojo pigment colour from, then Ivara can steal from them (because then it's a trash mob character).

4. Batteries for excavation drills for excavation mode - surprisingly, she can actually get two batteries off of one carrier (just like any other looting frame), whether that's considered useful or not is a different story as excavation drill health doesn't scale. Although, it has slight marginal use if one is doing a solo excavation drill on Orb Vallis bounties as those drills do have their health scale so there's slightly more breathing room to try and steal an extra battery inbetween so that you don't have to worry about the 2 battery carrier spawn limit in solo mode as much and you can then just focus on defending the drill once its topped off. But who else besides me actually use Ivara for solo orb vallis bounties

5. Condition overload farming - simply because this mod drops from a trash mob unit on Uranus, and since Ivara is the only frame who can officially stack with any other looting frame, in this really niche scenario, she can actually contribute to getting another roll off of this trash unit (actually it drops from the new nightwave stuff as well, but I honestly haven't touched that).

6. Supposedly she can steal, from the enemies that drop the rare mods on Jupiter gas city's secret rooms (like Kavat's grace from the Amalgam Cinder Machinist), but I have never tested this out yet in-game, so I'm very tentative about saying it.

There's just sadly, very few niche scenarios where Ivara's prowl looting thief abilities actually work.

 

On 2019-09-15 at 2:04 PM, taiiat said:

the strength of Infiltrate is being able to go basically the same speed as say a Volt or Saryn, while still in Prowl. or potentially faster in short distance bursts when getting the acceleration of leaving a zipline.

I honestly wouldn't say a high strength Infiltrate Ivara comes close to a no-strength Volt (with no movement mods) in terms of movement speed. I almost would bet that the no strength Volt might actually be able to out pace the high strength Infiltrate Ivara if they were to race. I don't know about Saryn though (were you referring to regular Saryn or Saryn Prime? Since they have different movement speeds). Honestly, the base 25% speed increase feels very negligible until you start to get to maybe 250+ Strength, but even at that much strength, she feels like she's walking very fast, which feels minor at best. I actually would kind of like to do a race test between a no strength (no movement speed mod) speed Volt and and high strength Infiltrate Ivara, just so that I can get a ballpark idea of how slow it really is. Sure Ivara gets faster with the augment, but dropping prowl and just straight up parkouring is still a lot faster (mind her glassiness)

 

On 2019-09-15 at 2:04 PM, taiiat said:

Just like how every Warframe should be.

(sorry taiiat this entire next section has nothing to do with original OP or you. I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just miserable. It is just my pent up misery that I've been holding in for weeks now, ever since I had to just deal with Ivara's noise arrow interception fix. So in short, its just me woefully ranting but finally letting things go since I've kept it locked up for a while now)

But it isn't always the case. Loki. Strength on Loki is pointless, ergo it's an easy dump stat which means players don't have to care for modding for it. Ergo, we can always stick Overextended on him without any sort of worry and makes modding for him a lot easier. He doesn't make use of strength in any real meaningful way.

In my opinion, I would say modding for Loki is much easier because you have a natural dump stat in his kit, which means you only realistically need to worry about his 3 other stats. To me, Loki represents the idea of, simplicity but highly effective in a lot of use case scenarios. Ivara's kit, to me is complex and more nuanced but at this extra cost, she doesn't have a natural dump stat (except in really specific use case scenario, the most likely candidate is going to probably be strength), and this makes her more complex to play... or interpreted a different way 'harder to play compared to other Warframes', depending on the perspective of the player. 

I'm not getting into a full blown discussion doing comparisons between Loki and Ivara, that's an entirely different topic on its own and a landmine on its own. God knows I don't want to hear the endless poo slinging back and forth between these two frames. The point that I'm sort of trying to get to is that I think Ivara is complex, which is both a good thing and maybe a bad thing. The player has to take time to actually learn how to deal and make use of Ivara's kit, deal with the hindrances of her kit, grab some weapons that synergize well with her, grab some extra arcanes (even operator arcanes), invest in the focus trees, lots of forma (both on her and her Artemis Bow) build energy pizzas (because Ivara desperately needs energy to do anything) and when presented like that, I feel like the average Warframe player just thinks. "hmmmm, that's a lot of investment just to make Ivara capable, but Loki is just much easier to press a single button go invis and run freely to do whatever mission where I need actual invisibility and he costs very little to invest into". Its not specifically Loki, its any frame that Ivara can be compared to.

This article written by some random player gives me that type of impression of an "average warframe player" when they finally acquire Ivara for the first time. They write about farming for Ivara and being disappointed and underwhelmed by her after trying her out. Sure he does surface level analysis of Ivara and doesn't get into using her in really complex setups, and instead compares her with other frames (the player probably lacks certain tools and things), but it's an honest unbias review from a non-Ivara player. I can't realistically trust other Ivara players to not give bias views on Ivara because they'll act like she's amazing. Ivara is reasonably good, I want her to be improved, but the average Warframe player is always going to compare her to any other type of frame whenever they're "looking for the right tool for the right job" and she'll always be lower tier pick.

This dude's article (I don't agree with his viewpoints, but it's useful for giving me an idea of what other non-bias Ivara players think about Ivara when they first encounter her and take her out for a spin): https://medium.com/@jasonmartin_95719/farming-ivara-was-disappointing-fe3bf7c11050

Right now, I'd estimate the vast majority of players actually regulate her to just Spy missions only. If I'm right, that's just downright disappointing. She can do things outside of spy, it's just that players will probably always pick the "easier frame" choice for a certain job.

It's kind of why I want Ivara to get a developer review... key emphasis, review, not rework. Just to re-examine Ivara's kit and give it some updating or polishing. Start off basic, just nudge her base stat numbers such as changing the cloak radius of quiver from 2.5m to maybe 3.5m or 4m. Not something insanely high, but just something more comfortable. Or sleep arrow radius from 6m to something like 8m or 9m, since everyone loves sleep arrow, probably one of her most favoured arrows out of quiver. Making the Noise Arrow actually have some real practical usage outside of gimmicky riven challenges (now that it's dead on Interception) since realistically noise arrow has no practical usage in multiplayer situations (because enemies become alerted by visible teammates), noise arrow actually can't work on game modes like survival or excavation because enemies are put into always 'alerted state'.

Get her basically out of Spy and get the average Warframe player to stop thinking that all she can do is just Spy. And I'm not just talking about Survival either, other game modes (besides survival, because survival is almost acting like the other pigeon hole) where she feels like a practical choice would be desirable too, as Ivara always faces the challenge of being compared to other Warframe for a certain task, but is usually 3rd or 4th (or 10th) choice in terms of specific jobs or specific mission types, she's rarely ever first choice for a specific task (Points to the Eidolon hunters who figured out how to make her work there, they're the most impressive players who figured out how to unpigeon hole her from spy).

Flipping the coin back though, drastic changes on Ivara would probably cause more of her current fan-base to be alienated if some drastic changes were to happen to her, it they aren't already due to recent changes (some have already left her ever since the lack of bullet jumping while in prowl mode, or her losing her noise arrow interception setup. Though the defense cloak arrow on just those 3 bugged maps was an actual bug fix, the fact that I had to correct so many people on what got fixed and an actual DE dev had to make an official reply, strikes me as concerning as so many misinterpreted what got bug fixed on her). So I'm definitely not saying rework, just slight quality of life tweaking would be nice, slightly higher base ranges on quiver would be a nice start..... or don't screw with her. I don't know, it's honestly hard to trust DE nowadays given that they can change anything that was considered normal for years. Example being the looting synergy nerf between Nekros, Hydroid and then Khora, because that was a game balance change that people wanted, amiright? We all thought that interaction was too powerful and needed to be changed /s.

I just don't want Ivara to fade into a state of irrelevancy, and I've been growing concerned about her future for a while, but I just have to play a wait and see for now.

(The reason this rant even came out, is because I made a mistake. I accidentally fell in love with Ivara, started treating her like an actual girlfriend, deluded myself into thinking that I could be all for Ivara. I'm delusional I know. But I'm also miserable, so there were causes for it. Sorry, its the byproduct of never wanting to say things publicly on these forums, but I sort of needed to let it go for once, because her noise arrow interception nerf changes affected me greatly. More than what I was expecting at first anyways. I'm getting over it, eventually I'll be less shocked, that and maybe finally taking some breaks from Warframe are actually needed at this point. Again, sorry for the unhinged rant, it's over). 

Edited September 26, 2019 by BlindStalker

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, BlindStalker said:

It looks cool... and would catch the attention of non-Ivara players better so that they might try her out for something that isn't the spy pit-hole that they regulated her to. It would appeal better to them... for maybe about 5 minutes before they go back to playing their "regular setup" with whatever frame they actually seriously use.

This is my opinion of it as well.  

1 hour ago, BlindStalker said:

I honestly wouldn't say a high strength Infiltrate Ivara comes close to a no-strength Volt (with no movement mods) in terms of movement speed.

He was referring to her Infiltrate speed while on Dashwire.  Which is actually quite fast, and even faster upon leaving the wire.  Also, you don't need 250+ strength to get this effect.  I get it on my build with just over 200.  

I disagree with strength being the possible dump stat.  I favor duration as a possible dump stat.  Not strength because of how power strength effects all of her powers in a major way except for Quiver.  Outside of Quiver, duration not so much.  Especially when you have high efficiency.  

Back to the topic.  Concentrated Arrow requires too much investment just to have a gimmick ability that doesn't compare nearly as well to just using a balanced build and certain weapons.  Heck, unless you have tons of range, Concentrated Arrow has about the same effect radius as my Gas Build Daikyu before the bow buff.  And without the hellacious nerf when not getting a headshot.  

DE took the idea that we suggested a very long time ago and twisted the hell out of it.  It really should be called Exploding Arrow.  We originally wanted Concentrated arrow to be just that.  The power of all 7 or 14 arrows (about 19 in my case 😁) to be concentrated into a single projectile.  Didn't even need to have any other gimmicks. 

That said, Concentrated Arrow is only a slightly better augment than that trash Piercing Navigator.  An augment that is made pointless because of how Navigator really works.  

Empowering Quiver- This one can be used in a practical manner on Defense type missions.  As these are the only mission types wear you can camp on a dashwire long enough for the augment to be worthwhile.  It would be handy for eidolon hunts IF there was a decent point to mount a Dashwire.  Which in some ways put this augment in the same category as Infiltrate for me. 

I honestly feel the other two augments being not really worth the trouble except for enthusiasts or tryhards.  I label myself as a Tryhard Ivara Enthusiast as I did build a whole new frame just to fairly test an augment.  Hehe

Edit:  These are just my honest opinions on all the augments for Ivara.  Please feel free to do whatever you like or want with your builds and playstyle.  What works for me might not work for you and vice/versa.  Hopefully my ignorant ramblings will help someone else learn something they might not have known.  😉 

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by DatDarkOne
added disclaimer

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

-snip-

I'm not convinced that one can actually get those exact stats on a Concentrated Arrow build, but maybe close.

yes, indeed included Energy Conversion for the scenario i suggested. it's not always the most convenient thing but Energy Orbs are plenty common enough if you ask me. if there really aren't any Energy Orbs in the room, i can always beyblade some Trash for a moment or two. but i don't pick up Energy Orbs when i don't need them, just as i don't pick up Ammo that i don't actually need, Et Cetera. i always play games that way, i ration available resources quite harshly.
i did specifically say close to or exceeding.

if Exilus opts for Range, then it's close to on each, or if it opts for Strength then Strength exceeds.

mind that i do use Arcane Rage w/ Concentrated Arrow, which can be seen as some pseudo additional Power Strength. but that's not included with any of the numbers here.

2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Except Ivara can't steal loot from bosses (including mini-bosses)

most of those minibosses didn't even come to mind when writing that.
for the rest of the Enemies, other than Life Support, there's not that many Enemies that you really care about getting extra drops from. which is why Prowl offers useful value against other l00t Abilities.

2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

I honestly wouldn't say a high strength Infiltrate Ivara comes close to a no-strength Volt (with no movement mods) in terms of movement speed. I almost would bet that the no strength Volt might actually be able to out pace the high strength Infiltrate Ivara if they were to race.

Honestly, the base 25% speed increase feels very negligible until you start to get to maybe 250+ Strength, but even at that much strength, she feels like she's walking very fast, which feels minor at best. I actually would kind of like to do a race test between a no strength (no movement speed mod) speed Volt and and high strength Infiltrate Ivara, just so that I can get a ballpark idea of how slow it really is. Sure Ivara gets faster with the augment, but dropping prowl and just straight up parkouring is still a lot faster (mind her glassiness)

Infiltrate is pretty fast when you use Ziplines, shrug. plus the extra speed you get when launching from Ziplines is also uhhh... well it's often accurate to describe it as "jesus that's way too fast right now" for the 3D spaces that you're usually trying to navigate.
like Wormholes, the efficacy of it will surely depend on getting really precise placement of Ziplines while moving quickly. i'm not going to pretend that i practice said skill, but i know said skill exists.

 

2 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

But it isn't always the case.

it should be, though. getting everything for free is boring, and also means that there just aren't that many features to even use. i.e. quite plain and could really use a lot more depth.

it's not like a well rounded Warframe that uses all of the Ability Stats is one Ability uses extreme Range another extreme Strength and another extreme Duration - moreso that Abilities offer enough features that there's a myriad of tools presented and the Mods serve as levers to pick sets of Abilities or to hyper specialize or to be highly flexible.

 

which then, Loki is boring. as. hell. the entire Warframe is summarized as you walk around Invisible, spam Disarm like it's going out of style, and maybe Teleport around for some big rooms to move a bit faster.
there's just no depth. and that's what happens when Warframes don't have features that give them a reason to deal with all of the Ability Stats. it's not the sole reason, but most certainly a contributing factor. newer Warframes commit sins like this too. the only removal of Ability Stat desires that i've seen be successful is Nidus with Efficiency. freeing up a Slot or two is pretty nice, but it comes with a very serious cost so it works.

 

honestly, i'd prefer if all Warframes were 'irrelevant' when talking strictly through the lens of whether uneducated Players cream their pants about how __ is "OP" and has to be used for __. i'd much rather Warframes be toolboxes with legs than a single wrench that's purpose made for people to AFK in one Gamemode.

Edited September 16, 2019 by taiiat

[TheLexiConArtist]

11 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Except Ivara can't steal loot from bosses (including mini-bosses), seriously, she lost that ability somewhere around 3 months after she was released.

Not to be a jerk or anything, but the only one who's actually slightly worst at farming for resources is Atlas, because he doesn't have a 100% guaranteed drop, but also because his looting augment doesn't work on bosses either. Sorry Atlas mains, I'm not trying to throw you under the bus.

Here's what Ivara can actually prowl for which might potentially be useful:

- War blueprint parts (and well those funny sentient mods) - from sentients spawned on Lua or elsewhere. I'm surprised that she can actually prowl from these dudes, these dudes are surprisingly not coded as bosses nor mini-bosses.

- Batteries for excavation drills for excavation mode - surprisingly, she can actually get two batteries off of one carrier (just like any other looting frame), whether that's considered useful or not is a different story as excavation drill health doesn't scale. ut who else besides me actually use Ivara for solo orb vallis bounties

- Condition overload farming - simply because this mod drops from a trash mob unit on Uranus, and since Ivara is the only frame who can officially stack with any other looting frame, in this really niche scenario, she can actually contribute to getting another roll off of this trash unit (actually it drops from the new nightwave stuff as well, but I honestly haven't touched that).

- Supposedly she can steal, from the enemies that drop the rare mods on Jupiter gas city's secret rooms (like Kavat's grace from the Amalgam Cinder Machinist), but I have never tested this out yet in-game, so I'm very tentative about saying it.

There's just sadly, very few niche scenarios where Ivara's prowl looting thief abilities actually work.

This is what I was thinking too. Prowl loot is only useful on individual priority targets as @taiiat said, but it's still incredibly inconvenient at best, if not outright non-working for most of them.

Sentients are the main genuine use-case still allowed in the game. I can also confirm that the Augmented-Amalgam units in the labs can also be stolen from. Everything else.. you're better off using either Hydroid for the guarantee (that still works right up to Hemocytes in Plague Star), Khora for better point control while looting, or Nekros for convenience.

I think you could still argue Atlas has a comparable edge over Ivara on the bottom rung of the ladder because Ore Gaze is instant (now, at least) and an AOE - not one target at a time after a delay.

(I use Ivara on the Vallis too! Bring the Amesha along for object-defending Extractors and those drones she can't cloak for some reason, and it's all gravy.)

11 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

It's kind of why I want Ivara to get a developer review... key emphasis, review, not rework. Just to re-examine Ivara's kit and give it some updating or polishing. Start off basic, just nudge her base stat numbers such as changing the cloak radius of quiver from 2.5m to maybe 3.5m or 4m. Not something insanely high, but just something more comfortable. Or sleep arrow radius from 6m to something like 8m or 9m, since everyone loves sleep arrow, probably one of her most favoured arrows out of quiver. Making the Noise Arrow actually have some real practical usage outside of gimmicky riven challenges (now that it's dead on Interception) since realistically noise arrow has no practical usage in multiplayer situations (because enemies become alerted by visible teammates), noise arrow actually can't work on game modes like survival or excavation because enemies are put into always 'alerted state'.

As I said earlier in the thread, all her abilities and augments both need a pass over to stop limiting her so much. No other frames have so many hindering factors tying their kit down. Why does Ivara's? Your assessment of Quiver is on point with mine, too. As Ivara 'mains' we're in agreement here.

10 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

That said, Concentrated Arrow is only a slightly better augment than that trash Piercing Navigator.  An augment that is made pointless because of how Navigator really works.  

Empowering Quiver- This one can be used in a practical manner on Defense type missions.  As these are the only mission types wear you can camp on a dashwire long enough for the augment to be worthwhile.  It would be handy for eidolon hunts IF there was a decent point to mount a Dashwire.  Which in some ways put this augment in the same category as Infiltrate for me. 

I honestly feel the other two augments being not really worth the trouble except for enthusiasts or tryhards.  I label myself as a Tryhard Ivara Enthusiast as I did build a whole new frame just to fairly test an augment.  Hehe

I'd rather have the Power Of Three conclave augment for Quiver than Empowering Quiver, personally. I'm not sure what the actual arc of the triple-shot is, but I can imagine that being useful for Cloaking a bigger area instantly for more freedom of movement or Sleeping a more spread-out enemy group.

Piercing Navigator actually got a tiny bit of QoL in the recent pass, since they added some desperately needed bonus punch-through to it. It's still destroyed by the absolutely unseen anywhere else indefinite cost scaling of the base ability. Yes, we have Valkyr and Ember who reach double-cost but they cap there. Yes, we have drain-per second channels and drain-per-target/distance abilties on a few frames but they are linear. In those cases, too, those frames are actively moving and (often) killing while that drain goes on (sleepy Equinox notwithstanding) which means they are able to gather up Energy to keep going.
Compare Navigator, which makes your Warframe stand in place and halts energy generation, both of which work to hard cap the amount of time you can actually spend Navigating already. Why does the ability have to scale up cost?
As an improvement I'd like to see the Duration antisynergy and scaling cost addressed on the baseline of the ability, and because you're already limited by immobile channelling, infinite punch through on the projectile. Let Ivara go all Guardians of the Galaxy Yondu on our enemies. Wouldn't that be just a ton of fun?

Infiltrate I've already described as being an absolute waste of design space with irrelevant and insulting 'benefits'. If they're going to keep some limiting factors on Prowl, at least let the augment affect the ones that matter. For the cost of the mod slot, let her parkour. Don't expose her when shooting noisy weapons. She can't afford it. Loki doesn't even get revealed but he still gets to hush the damn things with his to avoid enemy blindfire.

And then we come to Concentrated Arrow, subject of the thread, which if nothing else just needs to concentrate the bloody arrows already. As hilarious as it would be to combine the Piercing Navigator suggestions with un-Punchthrough-restricted Concentrated Arrow including the headsplosions, maybe that would be a bit excessively powerful. But it would be amazing.

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

which then, Loki is boring. as. hell. the entire Warframe is summarized as you walk around Invisible, spam Disarm like it's going out of style, and maybe Teleport around for some big rooms to move a bit faster.
there's just no depth. and that's what happens when Warframes don't have features that give them a reason to deal with all of the Ability Stats. it's not the sole reason, but most certainly a contributing factor. newer Warframes commit sins like this too. the only removal of Ability Stat desires that i've seen be successful is Nidus with Efficiency. freeing up a Slot or two is pretty nice, but it comes with a very serious cost so it works.

honestly, i'd prefer if all Warframes were 'irrelevant' when talking strictly through the lens of whether uneducated Players cream their pants about how __ is "OP" and has to be used for __. i'd much rather Warframes be toolboxes with legs than a single wrench that's purpose made for people to AFK in one Gamemode.

Loki has his perks. I enjoy playing the drone carrier during Plague Star, skilful and efficient Switch Teleports (and Decoying to get ahead) are a blast for me.

It'd be even more handy in those big open-world areas if Decoy's cast range wasn't hard capped. I have over 220m teleport range but a sad 50 on Decoy..

 

Half the problem is, if you analogise Warframes to tools.. where other Warframes are hammers with nails, Ivara's a welding torch. The function of attaching A to B is there, situationally and arguably better, but it's a dangerous thing with added drawbacks; you're going to screw yourself over a lot worse if you aren't working around the issues it brings. You might just bruise yourself with a misused hammer, but you're very likely to blind and sear yourself using a welding torch without protective equipment.

Edited September 16, 2019 by TheLexiConArtist

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

As an improvement I'd like to see the Duration antisynergy and scaling cost addressed on the baseline of the ability, and because you're already limited by immobile channelling, infinite punch through on the projectile. Let Ivara go all Guardians of the Galaxy Yondu on our enemies. Wouldn't that be just a ton of fun?

Here's the interesting thing about Navigator and punchthru.  If the weapon has the punchthru mod or innate punchthru, Navigator pretty much makes that punchthru infinite without the augment.  Just try it with a Bow and you'll be surprised at just how many enemies you can kill with just one arrow without the augment.  

As for the shooting noisy weapons and decloaking, adding a Hush mod doesn't really hurt the overall damage of the weapon when you factor in the Prowl Bonus.  Then there is also Cloak Arrow which doesn't decloak with noisy weapons.  So, she can afford it if you actually need to use a noisy weapon.  It just requires applying just a tad bit of logic and Common Sense.

Ivara is a tactical frame.  Probably the most tactical frame in the game.  This means that she isn't quite as simple to use in some things.  This is an aspect of her that I like, while some may view that as punishing.  

One other benefit that Infiltrate gives just happens to be when in the Void maps with the orb lasers and other things.  Think of the times on Void defense mission when someone activates the turrets.  That issue isn't a problem with Infiltrate.  Hehe  😀 Don't get me wrong as I completely understand the augment is situational, but it just fits my playstyle way more than any of the other augments.  

 

[bibmobello]

17 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

There's no way DE was gonna do that.  It's THE main reason the Arca Plasmor + Navigator combo was nerfed into non-existance because it allowed you to do just that without even needing any augments.  

But the Arca plasmor has an insane AOE, while with concentrated arrow you have a tiny arrow and you have to aim perfectly the head! It's not so easy. Anyway it's pretty stupid even with piercing navigator you can't have punch trough.😥

Edited September 16, 2019 by bibmobello

[peterc3]

17 hours ago, taiiat said:

"i don't like the style of this" is not "this isn't useful".

 

This is a distinction most people are unable to make.

[Zekkii]

There's still a projectile weapon with infinite punchthrough in the game that can be used for navigator, although I'm sure if it gains too much traction DE will nerf it too.

[bibmobello]

21 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

There's still a projectile weapon with infinite punchthrough in the game that can be used for navigator, although I'm sure if it gains too much traction DE will nerf it too.

Yes i know there are a lot of weapons that can do better but it's a waste to have a "castrated" exalted weapon. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

50 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the interesting thing about Navigator and punchthru.  If the weapon has the punchthru mod or innate punchthru, Navigator pretty much makes that punchthru infinite without the augment.  Just try it with a Bow and you'll be surprised at just how many enemies you can kill with just one arrow without the augment.  

As for the shooting noisy weapons and decloaking, adding a Hush mod doesn't really hurt the overall damage of the weapon when you factor in the Prowl Bonus.  Then there is also Cloak Arrow which doesn't decloak with noisy weapons.  So, she can afford it if you actually need to use a noisy weapon.  It just requires applying just a tad bit of logic and Common Sense.

Ivara is a tactical frame.  Probably the most tactical frame in the game.  This means that she isn't quite as simple to use in some things.  This is an aspect of her that I like, while some may view that as punishing.  

One other benefit that Infiltrate gives just happens to be when in the Void maps with the orb lasers and other things.  Think of the times on Void defense mission when someone activates the turrets.  That issue isn't a problem with Infiltrate.  Hehe  😀 Don't get me wrong as I completely understand the augment is situational, but it just fits my playstyle way more than any of the other augments.  

 

My loadout used to be Ivara-Dread-Brakk-Sheev, I've spent more than my fair share of time navigating with bows. Depends plenty on the unit, your angle of attack and where you connect, etc. You can still run out of punch-through quickly enough (pre-augment change, at least). Suggesting indefinite punch-through is just a means to an end, and it's not like the Zenith doesn't exist. Even if it's 3m terrain but infinite enemy punch-through (see: Ignis mechanic) that'd work handy and avoid people Navigating off into places their camera probably shouldn't go.

It seems I wasn't clear enough on what I meant regarding the decloak from noisy weapons - I meant 'cannot afford' in the sense of being stealth-reliant for survival. She can't afford to be seen and shot as a result of that interaction - which no other stealth suffers as badly - especially when you account for the fact she still takes that extra energy drain from every damage tick while Prowl is active, even if she's temporarily visible. It adds up no matter how efficient your build, as I'm sure you've experienced from misadventures with Venom Eximi and Arc Traps occasionally.

I Hush my guns myself, but it shouldn't be necessary for Ivara alone over other stealth-centric frames. The headshot bonus inside Prowl is a nice-to-have, but we're discussing Concentrated Arrow because heads aren't 100% reliable to hit in every case, right?

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Loki has his perks. I enjoy playing the drone carrier during Plague Star

but you're very likely to blind and sear yourself using a welding torch without protective equipment.

that falls into the category of a Warframe being used only for 1% of things in the game though, eh? it's neat that we can do it but the Warframe is still what i described it as, most certainly :P

that's good. it's hard for a game to be exciting without that part being there.
without drawbacks, good things aren't even good. they aren't risky, so you get complacent and then nothing happens because of it because your cool things are just essentially massive Stat boosts, which is pretty boring. a button tied to making a Particle Effect, almost.
without tools having some drawbacks, we end up in those situations that Warframes make zero decisions on Modding. or they become Vex Armor.

[bibmobello]

6 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

My loadout used to be Ivara-Dread-Brakk-Sheev, I've spent more than my fair share of time navigating with bows. Depends plenty on the unit, your angle of attack and where you connect, etc. You can still run out of punch-through quickly enough (pre-augment change, at least). Suggesting indefinite punch-through is just a means to an end, and it's not like the Zenith doesn't exist. Even if it's 3m terrain but infinite enemy punch-through (see: Ignis mechanic) that'd work handy and avoid people Navigating off into places their camera probably shouldn't go.

It seems I wasn't clear enough on what I meant regarding the decloak from noisy weapons - I meant 'cannot afford' in the sense of being stealth-reliant for survival. She can't afford to be seen and shot as a result of that interaction - which no other stealth suffers as badly - especially when you account for the fact she still takes that extra energy drain from every damage tick while Prowl is active, even if she's temporarily visible. It adds up no matter how efficient your build, as I'm sure you've experienced from misadventures with Venom Eximi and Arc Traps occasionally.

I Hush my guns myself, but it shouldn't be necessary for Ivara alone over other stealth-centric frames. The headshot bonus inside Prowl is a nice-to-have, but we're discussing Concentrated Arrow because heads aren't 100% reliable to hit in every case, right?

My General loadout with Ivara is totally different, i use an useless primary weapon only for the bonus and a a melee with   1 riven disposition, now considering you have the 700% stealth bonus while invisible + piercing navigator+empowered quiver 8-10X with navigator you will deal millions of damage... it Is even even able to kill 165 conculist without using operator. The problem is that soon or later, everyone will use the same build and everything will be nerfed...

Edited September 17, 2019 by bibmobello