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Raikh

Melee Phase 2 - Numbers and Modding Issues

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7 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

"Primed Pressure Point is better." So much less damage potential ensures you will have to leave earlier than you'd be able to just because of poor modding. Okay then. Not like crits and elementals alone ensure the death of weaker enemies and the overall higher attack speed across melees ensuring faster status procing in where 3 hits feel like 1 hit.

It's okay though. Please don't ever mod condition overload into your builds. Since things only get nerfed when being overused. We highly appreciate your engagement!

Well atleast you’re acknowledging it was nerfed. 
and since the whole of Melee is weaker now you’re not going to be able to use it for as long as it used to regardless of using CO or PPP.

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12 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Do you struggle with basic reading comprehension? Consoles don't have the update yet. How can one possibly give objective feedback without actually having play tested the changes themselves?

Math and gathering information.

I did this with Baruuk and his 4 and came to the conclusion that is sucked. Everybody said I was wrong. Console gets the update, I get Baruuk, Test him. Come to the conclusion that his 4 is worse than I estimated it to be (granted I was being generous because so many people were giving me crap, saying he could destroy level 250s in 1-2 seconds). So yeah, People can give objective feedback without playing the update. I’m not going to take these findings directly to the official feedback threads, but I try and stop all these “Melee isn’t worse” echo chamber threads.

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10 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Math and gathering information.

I did this with Baruuk and his 4 and came to the conclusion that is sucked. Everybody said I was wrong. Console gets the update, I get Baruuk, Test him. Come to the conclusion that his 4 is worse than I estimated it to be (granted I was being generous because so many people were giving me crap, saying he could destroy level 250s in 1-2 seconds). So yeah, People can give objective feedback without playing the update. I’m not going to take these findings directly to the official feedback threads, but I try and stop all these “Melee isn’t worse” echo chamber threads.

You're right that melee is much worse statwise than before and that pure status melees got hit the worst. I've even provided my feedback on the issue: 

On 2019-11-02 at 11:31 AM, Dragazer said:

Condition overload stacking with itself additively was a fair change. However, making it stack additive with pressure point and other base damage mods was a terrible decision. This makes all other base dmg bonuses (rivens, weapon augments, primed pressure point, Chroma vex armor) irrelevant as any other dmg mod like crit or elementals now provide better bonuses always because those provide multiplicative bonuses to your base dmg.

Leave CO to additive stack with itself, and change it back to multiplying with base dmg mods/buffs

Blood rush also has similar issues now with it only taking to account your base crit therefore making other crit mods redundant. However if worse comes to worst and they decide to leave it as is, then with the current CO it is always better to have it replace PPP for these reasons: 

55 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

No one cares about the smaller trash mobs that die in one hit anyways. Its the heavy units that don't die in a single hit regardless of having PPP or not that matters. Its with the heavy units that CO completely outclasses PPP.

I was replying to your comment that: 

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Primed Pressure point is better.

Which is only true in the edge cases where enemies are status immune, otherwise for 99% of content ppl regularly do, CO is now making PPP redundant.  

 

 

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Just now, Dragazer said:

 

Which is only true in the edge cases where enemies are status immune, otherwise for 99% of content ppl regularly do, CO is now making PPP redundant.  

This is enough of a reason to not rely on CO as a replacement for Pressure point or primed pressure point.

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Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

This is enough of a reason to not rely on CO as a replacement for Pressure point or primed pressure point.

Depends, I use Chroma (who got nerfed the exact same way as CO in regards to base dmg mods) for the 1% of time that I fight enemies are status immune.

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7 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

You're right that melee is much worse statwise than before and that pure status melees got hit the worst.

This is also an issue. DE clearly wants to expand player options for builds, but the changes to CO completely gibbed Status melee. Effectively limiting the options even more. Pretty much putting back into the pre-CO days where everything was crit focused. (This is actually giving the same vibes as the “loot frames were nerfed to promote choice” debacle. They didn’t promote choice they just made us disregard all the loot frames that weren’t Nekros)

IDK how anybody can defend these changes to melee.

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First of all sorry for my very bad english but im spanish and i have some troubles to speak in english but lets go.

 

As a player from day one on my old account and around to 5 years with this account, I agree so hard with the mele exalted weapon are very bad weapons just now; inclusive hard build on strengh in your WF isnt enought to make a good damage, i think they need improve the exalted weapons and revamp the clunky heavy attacks or still work on some things like the animations/multipliers etc... i have some sugestions.

 

1. For endgame dmg issues:

Just give to the weapon stances higher dmg multipliers to properly raise the output dmg (yes i know endgame enemies scales so hard on armor, but this with the proposition with heavy attacks and the loadouts we use must be enought to play properly mele at endgame) ,  with higher dmg multipliers on the combos we can expect make more dmg witouth give back the memeing strike retarded power back ( i dont expect see how everyone slide again and destroy all at 1km around in 0.1 when i need make tons of moves/hits to kill on mele) 

Another good idea is cap the atack speed at for example around 2'5 or 3 and all the at speed over this must be convert in dmg multipliers, because at high speed weapons loadouts and frames are uncontrolable and you literally slipery over the map hitting to.... someplace that you cannot want 24/7 and of course nobody can hit 90 times per second a button to get the full utility on that insane bonuses gain via weapons + frames in so many cases (for example prisma dual cleavers is my favorite mele and valkyr my favorite frame; riven + berserk + high strengh valkyr = insane and uncontrollable aim and hit speed, all this ignoring if you have a Volt or Whisp for example on your party....)

 

Exalted Weapons; just buff him and give him their own animations on heavy attack (i hate see my valk do the same animation as kogake) thats feel so loooooow on dmg compared to the main weapons thats not be feeling like a "ultimate weapon" from Valkyr Wukong Baruuk and Excalibur now...

 

2. Heavy attacks and Combo multipliers

Ok here i watch the change and i dont like at all because is a very good idea but dont feel it good when we play, i have the idea of make the heavy attacks really worth on high volume of enemies changing the low and "one target" animations for high valuable charge atacks in a posible 2 hit combos, the first as a strong attack that consume the 50% of the combo multiplier when you stop the strong attack chain and the second as a new "ultimate mele skill" designed by weapon tipes that cannot be used if you dont shoot the 1st skill first draining all combo as now every charge do, let me explain: if i play a fragor or a scindo for example i dont want charge slow to hit 3 guys in front on me, i want make a big and strong area around me that destroy and slam all at certain range of my wf, same with another weapons for example a redeemer why i just soot 2 times ? the strong attack can feel so hard and worth if before the st shoot we make a fast shoot discharge around melting all at certain range.

 

thats 2 thinks can help so much to improve the overall mele main issues in general and the issues at endgame and of course heavy attacks on mele can be really valuables under the idea of using that multiplier to hit hard around instead just in front, maybe to balance and dont change to heavy spam DE can put a minumin multiplier to trigger the second heavy attack on chain

 

I dont talk about mods because i know and understand the mods are so fking hard to balance and 1 or 2 mods can convert the endgame in a joke if are overpowered (as the endgame was with the old bloodrush memeing strike or gas overload or viral slash overload etc i remember do crits up to 100k and 200k easy with just a riven and some crit build or overload)

 

Thanks for reading me, sorry for my neanderthal english level and have a good day guys!

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21 hours ago, Raikh said:

Follow Through however manages to reduce the value of range in a place we didn't expect it to. Follow Through is a multiplier applying to hitting multiple targets with the same attack. For instance a weapon with 0.5 follow through will deal half damage to each subsequent target after the first. So the first target takes full damage, the second 50%, the third 25% and so on. This also seems to apply to damage procs like Gas which is a major nerf to gas as its power came from its AoE capacities and sees extremely diminished effects.
It also begs the questionh ow much range is even worth anymore if you can't do proper AoE damage anymore.

Follow Through was always present, people didn't notice it for the most part since many popular weapons had relatively high follow through values. In some cases, follow through was buffed, but many of the high range/high damage melee weapons had their follow through nerfed.

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7 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That increases TTK because you have to take extra time to shoot them before meleeing them.

Decreasing TTK to a very few seconds matters to you...? Boi you really are an impatient one. Granted, if you are using a squishy frame TTK really matters for your survival but you can just quickly retreat and try “Prime” them from a far.

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9 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Decreasing TTK to a very few seconds matters to you...? Boi you really are an impatient one. Granted, if you are using a squishy frame TTK really matters for your survival but you can just quickly retreat and try “Prime” them from a far.

Well good news. This argument has become redundant because Brozime just put out a video explaining why CO is not worth using over PPP. So we’re done here.

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il y a 4 minutes, DrivaMain a dit :

Decreasing TTK to a very few seconds matters to you...? Boi you really are an impatient one. Granted, if you are using a squishy frame TTK really matters for your survival but you can just quickly retreat and try “Prime” them from a far.

Since we're talking about maximizing damage, I guess TTK matters here. If you only want big hits, then build heavy weapon for heavy attack, one hit with a weapon like tigris prime, then another one with something like zakti, then hit with your 12x combo heavy attack. Ok I'm exaggerating. But the question is "which one kills faster, PPP or CO". If you shoot with your weapon, it's more time to kill.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom:

Follow Through was always present, people didn't notice it for the most part since many popular weapons had relatively high follow through values. In some cases, follow through was buffed, but many of the high range/high damage melee weapons had their follow through nerfed.

I've seen conflicting information if it was present before or is entirely new. I certainly noticed when testign different and partially also weaker weapons that there is a notable domino effect where one enemy dies after another rather than all at the same time. I haven't really noticed such a behvaior before the patch. I also didn't hear of the mechanic before, just that in the earlier days of WF there was a cap on the number of targets melees could hit at once, which was removed at some point.

Do you have any insight on how the values were supposedly before the patch? I would be interested if the values were simply a lot higher before or if it was simply not noticable because the power ceiling of melee was just so much higher that enemies died all at ocne anyway.

vor 32 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

Well good news. This argument has become redundant because Brozime just put out a video explaining why CO is not worth using over PPP. So we’re done here.

And his argumentation was faulty. His entire argument relied on the assumption that the best you could do was run a second 90% element over PPP. Which is simply not the case, there are more powerful alternatives which cause PPP to fall behind by the second status application instead of the third. He also ignores possible advantages of having lets say corrosive over just toxin even if you pick a second element.
There is also real consideration to how many hits a target needs. If you can proc a different status on each of the first 3 hits and you take 10 hits to kill an enemy then dropping PPP would be worth it even with Brozime's example. And Weeping Wounds + forced stance proc make this an easy task to do, especially with fast weapons.

This is an optimization towards high level enemies and especially the heavy units among them and tbh even 100 is a bit low since optimization still doesn't really matter for them. Everything below lv100 you can kill with a stick regardless of what mods are in there. Enemies that are strictly oneshot are also not relevant to the discussion because CO didn't help killing those beforehand either.

The only weapons that run into the issue Brozime points out are pure status weapons. Crit weapons can stack an additional multiplier and thus have the options to take more vlauable options ulitamtely making ti worthwhile to drop PPP. Status weapons lack these extra multipliers and are much more pushed towards stackign more additive values and on that end PPP is still rather high ont he list for general use.

To clarify. I'm not in favor of having CO work like that. I said for the better and for the worse since it being no longer multiplicative with itself was a broken mechanic and if we are at Brozimes video on the topic, he said the same thing, which is the part that was for the better. For the worse however is that it is additive with PPP and similar effects which it shouldnt because it causes problems. Ironically it causes the most problems for the weapons it was specifically tailored to which are pure status weapons. Crit weapons can circumvent this being hit less so by dropping PPP as they can stack more multipliers and just run away with the best of both worlds as Weeping Wounds enables everything that has more than 15% status to go down a status route.
It is absolutey paramount to change CO to be on a separate multplier from all other mods as it only leads to problems with base damage mods, a bunch of warframe buffs and status weapons.

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6 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Do you have any insight on how the values were supposedly before the patch? I would be interested if the values were simply a lot higher before or if it was simply not noticable because the power ceiling of melee was just so much higher that enemies died all at ocne anyway.

I don't have access to all the new follow through values (Patch notes don't state what they used to be unless they were changed, and wiki doesn't have values yet). From a bit of testing I've done with ones that have been changed:


Hammers: Claimed to have had 0.2 follow through, changed to 0.4, was actually 0.9 originally
Heavy Blades: Claimed to have had 0.2 follow through, changed to 0.6, was actually 0.9 originally
Nikanas: Claimed to have had 0.6 follow through, changed to 0.7, was actually 0.7 already
Rapiers: Claimed to have had 1 follow through, changed to 0.7, was actually 0.6 originally

If you have any particular ones you want tested, just let me know what the value on PC is

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom:

I don't have access to all the new follow through values (Patch notes don't state what they used to be unless they were changed, and wiki doesn't have values yet). From a bit of testing I've done with ones that have been changed:


Hammers: Claimed to have had 0.2 follow through, changed to 0.4, was actually 0.9 originally
Heavy Blades: Claimed to have had 0.2 follow through, changed to 0.6, was actually 0.9 originally
Nikanas: Claimed to have had 0.6 follow through, changed to 0.7, was actually 0.7 already
Rapiers: Claimed to have had 1 follow through, changed to 0.7, was actually 0.6 originally

Thank you for the info, gratly appreciated.

Polearms right now have 0.6, staves 0.5. Most weapons sit around 0.5-0.6. Ironically the short weapons seem to be the ones that get the higher follow through with claws sitting at 0.8 and sparring at 0.9 as the highest two weapon classes as further examples.

If the longer weapons which were the only ones really capable of hitting enough targets to matter before patch sat at ~0.9 then I can why I wouldn't have noticed it.

I am confused however why they changed the values so drastically, especially for the wepaons that already didn't get anything out of the range changes and even lost some range from the range mod changes if not losing base range.

 

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51 minutes ago, Raikh said:

I've seen conflicting information if it was present before or is entirely new. I certainly noticed when testign different and partially also weaker weapons that there is a notable domino effect where one enemy dies after another rather than all at the same time. I haven't really noticed such a behvaior before the patch. I also didn't hear of the mechanic before, just that in the earlier days of WF there was a cap on the number of targets melees could hit at once, which was removed at some point.

Do you have any insight on how the values were supposedly before the patch? I would be interested if the values were simply a lot higher before or if it was simply not noticable because the power ceiling of melee was just so much higher that enemies died all at ocne anyway.

And his argumentation was faulty. His entire argument relied on the assumption that the best you could do was run a second 90% element over PPP. Which is simply not the case, there are more powerful alternatives which cause PPP to fall behind by the second status application instead of the third. He also ignores possible advantages of having lets say corrosive over just toxin even if you pick a second element.
There is also real consideration to how many hits a target needs. If you can proc a different status on each of the first 3 hits and you take 10 hits to kill an enemy then dropping PPP would be worth it even with Brozime's example. And Weeping Wounds + forced stance proc make this an easy task to do, especially with fast weapons.

This is an optimization towards high level enemies and especially the heavy units among them and tbh even 100 is a bit low since optimization still doesn't really matter for them. Everything below lv100 you can kill with a stick regardless of what mods are in there. Enemies that are strictly oneshot are also not relevant to the discussion because CO didn't help killing those beforehand either.

The only weapons that run into the issue Brozime points out are pure status weapons. Crit weapons can stack an additional multiplier and thus have the options to take more vlauable options ulitamtely making ti worthwhile to drop PPP. Status weapons lack these extra multipliers and are much more pushed towards stackign more additive values and on that end PPP is still rather high ont he list for general use.

To clarify. I'm not in favor of having CO work like that. I said for the better and for the worse since it being no longer multiplicative with itself was a broken mechanic and if we are at Brozimes video on the topic, he said the same thing, which is the part that was for the better. For the worse however is that it is additive with PPP and similar effects which it shouldnt because it causes problems. Ironically it causes the most problems for the weapons it was specifically tailored to which are pure status weapons. Crit weapons can circumvent this being hit less so by dropping PPP as they can stack more multipliers and just run away with the best of both worlds as Weeping Wounds enables everything that has more than 15% status to go down a status route.
It is absolutey paramount to change CO to be on a separate multplier from all other mods as it only leads to problems with base damage mods, a bunch of warframe buffs and status weapons.

Ok fine let’s just have DE nerf everything into uselessness. Since that appears to be the only way to get you to approve of anything.

Serration? Nerf it

Hornet Strike? Nerf it

Pistol Gambit? Nerf it

NERF EVERYTHING!

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok fine let’s just have DE nerf everything into uselessness. Since that appears to be the only way to get you to approve of anything.

Serration? Nerf it

Hornet Strike? Nerf it

Pistol Gambit? Nerf it

NERF EVERYTHING!

This just in, man angry that busted mods got nerfed

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Just now, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

This just in, man angry that busted mods got nerfed

It’s wasn’t that busted tho! It gave Status melee a reason to be used. Did it deserve a small nerf for its exponential stacking? Yeah sure. Did it deserve to be completely gutted, only to be defended by people that don’t know how to math? Absolutely not.

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Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s wasn’t that busted tho! It gave Status melee a reason to be used. Did it deserve a small nerf for its exponential stacking? Yeah sure. Did it deserve to be completely gutted, only to be defended by people that don’t know how to math? Absolutely not.

"small nerf" The thing is that exponential scaling gets out of hand really fast. Far better to make it consistent with how other stuff stacks on themselves i.e. additive to self instead of multiplicative to self. The only change that would be needed I say is to just make it a separate multiplier from base damage mods/buffs. 

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

"small nerf" The thing is that exponential scaling gets out of hand really fast. Far better to make it consistent with how other stuff stacks on themselves i.e. additive to self instead of multiplicative to self. The only change that would be needed I say is to just make it a separate multiplier from base damage mods/buffs. 

The way you described it makes me believe you don’t know how CO worked or works.

the way it works now is it adds damage based on the weapons base damage. It’s additive.

The way it used to work was it added damage based off the weapon after the damage increases from damage mods, elemental mods, crit mods. 

Reverting it to the way it used to work without the exponential stacking will make it worth the time using while not making it ludicrously powerful.

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

Ok fine let’s just have DE nerf everything into uselessness. Since that appears to be the only way to get you to approve of anything.

Serration? Nerf it

Hornet Strike? Nerf it

Pistol Gambit? Nerf it

NERF EVERYTHING!

Your reading comprehension is worse than your temper.

I specifically stated that it was NOT okay that CO is on the same multiplier as melee base damage.

You are just mindlessly ranting. In case of doubt throwing insults at people or putting yourself into some vicitim role as if people were trying to degrade you. If you don't want to discuss then don't, I certainly can't be bothered anymore by your sad behaviour

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33 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The way you described it makes me believe you don’t know how CO worked or works.

the way it works now is it adds damage based on the weapons base damage. It’s additive.

The way it used to work was it added damage based off the weapon after the damage increases from damage mods, elemental mods, crit mods.

I know how it works now, and I'm saying that its good that it stacks in a way more consistent with how other buffs stack with themselves now. Old CO was busted to hell and back ten times because of exponential scaling (which happened because it was multiplicative to itself). New CO actually has a semblance of balance to it since it is additive to itself, but it just needs to not be additive to base damage mods.
 

 

40 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Reverting it to the way it used to work without the exponential stacking will make it worth the time using while not making it ludicrously powerful.

Congrats, you and Raikh (and me) are in agreement.

TL;DR keep the way CO calcs right now, but change it to a total damage modifier instead of a base damage one.

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