Melee Phase 2 - Numbers and Modding Issues

[Raikh]

Melee Phase 2 has changed a lot. While I think that the stance changes greatly improved melee combat from a gameplay and application standpoint we didn't only see a change in playstyle but much moreso a change in numbers both for the weapons itself, the mechanics behind them and especially the mods. These changes come with a fair share of issues and several aspects that warrant discussion as to if they are healthy for the game or merely a change in paradigm we need to get used to.

To give an overview as this post is gonna end being pretty long as I want to cover several topics all related to numbers and their consequences. The first part is going to be number changes to melee weapons and melee mechanics, while the second part is dedicated to changes to mods and how these changes affect melee weapon builds right now, especially the massive increase in mod redundancy.

With the post being this long feel free to only read the parts that are particularly interesting to you and comment on them, note however that some indivdual parts are linked and might need to be read together to get the full picture.

Part 1: Numbers
- Combo Counter changes and Base Damage increases
- Heavy Attacks and the new combo counter
- Slide Attacks
- Range and Follow Through
- Exalted Melees
- Zaws

Part 2: Mods
- Condition Overload
- Blood Rush and Weepin Wounds
- Maiming Strike
- Mod redundancy - the new meta

 

Part 1: Numbers

Combo Counter changes and Base Damage increases

The combo counter no longer increases basic melee damage but only the newly introduced heavy attacks, which essentially are justt repurposed charge attacks propped up with a damage icnreasign mechanic. The combo counter also stacks now much faster and has a cap of x12 multiplier at 220 hits. This makes it much easier to build the counter up and at the same time much less punishing to drop it due to donwtime from combat while travelling or in-between waves in missions like defense.

Now to the point. To compensate normal melee attacks no longer benefitting from the combo counter all melee weapons (except exalted melees but more on that later) saw increases in base damage. While the were also over changes to weapons similarly to the primary and secondary rebalancing we've seen the increases were still quite uneven. Some weapons got their damage icnreased as much as 4 times, while others have not even doubled their damage.
With the original combo counter it was pretty easy to get and maintain a x3 combo, so triple damage, while in longer runs or with Naramon it was certainly possible to go even higher. Quite frankly a mere doubled damage does not even remotely compensate for the loss of the combo mechanic. A x3 combo counter should be seen as the base for compensation given it being icnredibly accessible even in shorter missions and the discrepancies between the weapon buffs are to a large degree unwarrented. It is certainly welcome that some weapons got buffs and higher MR requirements on top of the compensation to broadne the field of high-end weaponry but weapons not being buffed outside of the compensation shouldnt be left in the dirt.
While in practice the changes to how the stances work is a increase in dps for most weapon classes this is mostly QoL as some high dps combos were simply incredibly unwieldy, tis not liek they weren't there before at alla dn this hsouldn't really affect weapon damage balancing. Heavy attacks without further investment also don't prduce enough value (if even at all) to make them a reason to why melee weapons haven't been compensated properly.

 

Heavy Attacks and the new combo counter

Speaking of Heavy Attacks. Heavy attacks are pretty much exactly like charge attacks were before the patch, just that the new combo counter increases their damage to actually interesting levels. Heavy attacks from what I've seen seem to do usually around 4-5 times normal damage which is by itself rather unimpressive given their wind-up and the fact that we have stance modifiers on attacks of up to 600% which makes some hits from a stance combo hit ahrder than a basic heavy attack.
The combo counter now icnreases that damage by up to 12 times which makes heavy attacks do 50-60 times normal damage but also consumes the entire combo counter. The damage itself of these heavy attacks can get quite juicy although our armored overlords may still live because of how broken armor scaling is, although a good slahs proc on a heavy attack can solve that, which is sadly not a given on all weapons except Nikanas who have seem to have a guaranteed slash proc on their heavy attack.

The issue here lies in 2 things. FIrst, which is only partially number related, they are clunky as hell. Their wind-up can be a bit slow and is super disruptive to the flow of gameplay. They also are often very single target oriented attacks which means you can't use them as a room sweeper and killing a single target with the mightiest of blows is a worthless endeavor in this game.
Secondly consuming the entire combo makes them too infrequent of a thing to really matter unless you specifically use combo efficiency to enable frequent usage while still dealing damage with them. It is never a good thing if I have a to specifically stack a particular stat to make the mechanic remotely usable. Not only are they just a slow unrewarding overkill but they are also infrequent enough to completely forget them. They also have insane anti-synergy with Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, which I will cover in the mod section.
The only point ever where heavy attacks are worth the consideration is when you face enemies so tanky that normal attacks jsut don't do the job anymore but that would still require heavy attack spam as something that you can't kill with 2-3 combos of a melee attack won't die to 1-2 heavy attacks either and these enemies lie way past level 200 which is something you have to do long endurance runs for to even encounter and this mechanic shouldnt be designed around as the entire game isn't designed around facing these enemies.

 

Slide Attacks

Slide Attacks got murdered ina dirty back alley. I'm not even talking about mods here. Before the patch slide attacks for the vast majority of attacks dealt more than normal damage. For instance a polearm did double normal damage with a slide, while tonfas and dual swords did 6 times normal damage (or was it 8, not 100% sure anymore). Now there are only two states. Weapons like polearms only deal normal damage while higher slide attack weaposn only deal double damage on slide attacks. So even without the massacre of slide mods we are going to talk about later slide attack damage took a massive beating that it didn't deserve.
I want to emphasize here that it was said on a Devstream that the goal was to bring non slide-playstyles up while not butchering slide attacks. Meanwhile nothing was brought up numbers wise and slide attacks got absolutely decimated.

Range and Follow Through

The range increase were great. Now most weapons can be used without needign to smell the enemies breath to stab them, although it seems like thats ome weapons most definitely lost some range and this wasn't even documented or talked about at all. Especially Whips seem to be a sketchy case as they were never really the big damage weapons but had all the rnage in the world to just cover enough ground to make up for it with AoE damage but now they seem to have the same range as dual swords and co. I'm not a whip user so my experience is fairly limited but it msot defintiely seems off. Similarly th elong polearms feel a bit shorter, which might be due to Primed Reach being a bit worse for longer weapons than before, which is fair tbh, but I'm not entirely convinced that they weren't atleast a bit longer before.
Follow Through however manages to reduce the value of range in a place we didn't expect it to. Follow Through is a multiplier applying to hitting multiple targets with the same attack. For instance a weapon with 0.5 follow through will deal half damage to each subsequent target after the first. So the first target takes full damage, the second 50%, the third 25% and so on. This also seems to apply to damage procs like Gas which is a major nerf to gas as its power came from its AoE capacities and sees extremely diminished effects.
It also begs the questionh ow much range is even worth anymore if you can't do proper AoE damage anymore. In most cases weapons can still shred through multiple targets due to CO status stacking creating quick chain reactions as the first enemy falls but it was entirely uncalled for and takes away one of the advantages melee had over guns and it also seems quite underhanded to me since it was never mentioned as an upcoming change and basically came out of nowhere.

 

Exalted Melees

Exalted weapons weren't compensated at all for the combo counter changes. It might not have been apparent as DE is still denying Acolyte Mods to Exalted Weapons for no good reason. This includes Body Count but not Driftng Contact. Exalted Melees could utilize the combo counter, yes even Exalted Blade with the the help of the surging Dash augment which provided a massive icnrease to its damage as the combo coutner was jsut that important.
Right now Exalted weapons are distinctly worse than normal melee weapons. These abilities are effectively warframe defining ultimate abilities while also replacing your normal weapon and costing a whole bunch of energy. They should be stronger than nomral weapons as they replace both a wepaon and take an ability slot. Power strength scaling doesn't make up for the lack of Blood Rush, Rivens and now lacking stats. Exalted Blade still sits at a 0.833 attack speed with 15% CC and 10% status which is jsut super bad comapred to what the stronger melee weapons have and now those weapons have also evry similar base damage and way betetr scalign via blood rush and potentially rivens.
There is no excuse for this and I'm quite frankly tired of the terrible treatment exalted melees have been subjected to since Shadow Debt.

 

Zaws

Zaws have gotten the short end of the stick with the changes. They no longer have the higher damage compared to most weapons in their weapon class and to top if off their customization options are near worthless now. Take a Cyath polearm for instance. If you built a full status version of it, it has 10% CC and 32% status. Orthos Prime offers 34% status while offering 22% CC and increased crit dmg with similar base dmg and attack speed values as the Zaw. There is absolutely no reason to use a Zaw anymore because regardless of how you customize it, there is another weapon with just better stats in general, easily obtainable among the normal weapons. There are only very few instances were a Zaw can still be considered an ideal choice or where atleast the specific customization is still meaningful as there is no weapon with stats like it.
I would ask to increase crit and status values and possibly customization options for Zaws so those don't end up as middle of the filed whatevers that jsut wait tog et thrown away by the next best prime weapon. Zaw arcanes aren't impactful enough to overcome the difference here in the vats majority of cases  and tehy don't have the opportunity ot be relatively unique compared to the Kitguns whih can be a bit more their very own weapons which makes it more difficult to make direct comparisons, while for Zaws you can very well make them.

Zaw parts also have changed. Before the patch you would ideally want to combine a slow grip/link with a fast grip/link to balance the Zaw out and reach optimal paper dps that way. While attack speed values stayed the same, damage values from grips and links are way less significant now so you are reaching optimal dps by stacking the fastest parts. If you don't use Peye for 1handed and Seekalla for 2handed weapons you are doing it wrong now and all who want to minmax their Zaws they can probably rebuild all fo them now.
This should be looked into as it is not a very fair change to those who have invested in zaws in the past.

 

Part 2: Mods

Condition Overload

CO was by far the most powerful mod in the game. Laughably, game breakingly powerful. This has changed for the better and for the worse. Instead of stacking multiplicatively with itself it now stacks additively. There is still no cap on the stacks but its power is massively reduced at higher stack counts. Overall, while saddening endurance runners, this a healthy change as its scaling was just too much and out of control, Its still the best mod alongside Blood Rush and an absolute staple on every melee. We can only hope though that the similarly broken armor scaling of enemies which it was countering before gets a similar treatment to even the scales, as this is a devastating loss in damage against these ridiculous enemies.

However, CO was also its own multiplier before this change. Now its Base melee damage like Pressure Point. While some have jumped tot he conclusion that this kills CO its exactly the other way around. Pressure Point is dead and so are all other similar effects. Throw away your melee dmg rivens and let your Chroma cry ina corner as he was doubly hit since his buff among a few other frame buffs are also additive with CO now. This is a super unhealthy change as it centralizes even more around CO since mods like Primed Pressure Point do not even compare to CO on enemies where it matter with the exception of the few enemies that are status immune for no good reason.

 

Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds

Both of these mods still scale with the combo counter, jsut at different vlaues. Weeping Wounds actually got away quite well as its now a lot stronger than before and makes a lot more weapon status viable. Blood Rush power caps now at 660% increased crit chance which is whta x4 combo multiplier provided before the patch. This is totally fine. It stacks afster and still retains its power for all but the most extremes of cases. However it no longer is its own crit multiplier. Before Blood Rush would multiply your crit after all additional buffs. So if you had an arcane avenger up or a crit chance mod on your weapon it would multiply after that. Now it is additive with them. This is again a healthy change from a scaling perspective. It however narrows the range fo weapons that are crit viable and much more importantly renders all crit chance mods worthless. Getting another 60% or even like a 120% from a strong riven does nothing compared to the towering 660% Blood Rush provides. This again, like with the CO changes, decreases the range of useful mods and build variety.
Lastly these mods bring insane anti-synergy with heavy attacks. Since those consume your combo counter you lose all the benefits of these mods until you have stacked up again, which usually just means you don't want to use heavy attacks at all. Combo efficiency would again soften that but you can ahrdly fit in. You can sort of cheat it in with Focus energy which locks you into running an electricity mod and Zenuriks inner might (which si bugged and doesn't work right now) but the main issue here is how bad the usability of heavy attacks are and it just seems all the more plausible to ignore them rather than trying to build for them to make them

Maiming Strike

If you meet a Maiming Strike anywhere you have either traveled to the past or are in the afterlife. Its unreasonable how dead this mod is now. As consequence of the Blood Rush changes its no longer multiplied by it, which is tbh all that Maiming Strike needed to not be oppressive. But its also now just a normal crit multiplier isnetad of a flat additive crit chance bonus. SO its gotten way weaker, comeptes also with Blood Rush which is an auto lose and it can no loner be utilized by low crit chance weapons even if it would still have value. Its another entry of murder vicitms among  now redundant mods the changes of this patch have provided us with.

 

Mod redundancy - the new meta

So what is the conclusion? The new go to melee weapon builds are not defined by what is viable but rather what is not as more mods than ever have compeltely lost purpose. You know its bad when even the staple base dmg mod bites the dust. You want to build a proepr melee weapon? Its easier than ever because you no logne rneed rivens to get all the different multipliers on one weapon. You stick CO and Blood Rush on everything, get crit dmg, up to 2 elements, maybe range, maybe life strike/healing return and attack speed. Pressure point isn't desirable, true steel or any variation isn't desirable either.
Pure status melees now don't have enough different multipliers to stack and have to play heavily into diminishing returns, while gas is also less attractive due to follow through, which was benefitting from stacking mutliplte toxin dmg mods.
Pure crit weapons still want CO to work since its just a MUCH better pressure point and either pre-stacking or forced procs from stances can enable that. If it for whatever reason doesn't work then the weapon will also fall off incredibly fast as you can't stack multiple crit chance instances to great effect anymore.
Sliding went from too broken to non-existant. Its virtually impossible to build for such a playstyle. The slide attacks don't have the damage anymore and slide crit mods are just useless now. It had to be reigned in but there is a vast space between what was needed and what was done.
There is certainly a level of convenience to having an all-in-one build which combines all the multipliers and all the scaling but the only diversity left is the one where you don't care to run a properly optimized build because you don't need it for the vast majority of warframes content. Even with healthier scaling we are in a way worse state of modding than before. CO should probably be its own multiplier and maybe nerfed to 80-100% per stack to compensate. While for crit we simply need alternatives to blood rush. If True Steel had 300-400% crit chance then MAYBE it would be a trade-off if you don't want to rely on the combo counter or it would still be potentially worth to run alongside Blood Rush.

 

While I personally think that the overall direction of phase 2 was the right one. It was executed rather poorly what the numbers are concerned and it is thoroughly neglecting a lot of very important factors that shape the overall melee gameplay and modding. A lot the changes that should be done are doable witohut major system changes, some are slight functionality changes others are jsut number changes. I sincerely hope that we will see such changes happening before we are on to the next topic and next content, as it is always the case eventually.

If you've read this far I will thank you for reading this much. Please comment if you agree or disagree and if I've got something wrong I will gladly take the hint. I hope that this is both informative and may lead to some further disucssion on the topic. I'm not one to usually do topics and am more of a lurker. But as someone who mainly plays Warframe with melee the changes have been impacting my experience a lot and I wanted to point out where I think the changes went wrong in a bit of detail and cover all the bases instead of leaving bits and pieces here and there.
I've certainly found a few new toys with the melee changes that work very well but the overall lack of modding diversity and brutal oversights bother me. There are also a few other concerns like the fall of Naramon but the post is at is already more than long enough and I wanted to stay close to the melee changes and not go too much into other and broader systems in Warframe that also affect these changes.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Raikh

[Uhkretor]

23 minutes ago, Raikh said:

gas (...) mutliplte GAS dmg procs.

... Gas damage does not bypass shields. Even the damn proc symbol is different.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Uhkretor

[Skaleek]

Well written and thought out post OP. I agree with your sentiments.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

The CO basically destroyed any reason to use Status focused melee weapons now. IDK how that can be for the better.

[Raikh]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

The CO basically destroyed any reason to use Status focused melee weapons now. IDK how that can be for the better.

CO is still an insanely strong mod. The problem is not that CO is weaker now. You still absolutely want weapons with a high status chance. Status procs provide a lot of damage and you want CO on every weapon and be able to stack it as high as possible.
The problem comes with pure status weapons, weapons that can't utilize Blood Rush well. The current modding situation makes it possible to fully combine CO and Blood Rush builds into basically the perfect hybrid even without the help of rivens.
You can also even push weapons with like 15% status to very high status vlaues thanks to how powerful weeping wounds are right now.

The issue is not COs power level it is that it is additive with base damage. Pure ststus weapons run out of mods they want to run and will double down on more additive values which makes them scale a lot less than the hybrids and fall off earlier. Making CO multiplicative with base damage would already help alot with solving that, while also making the hybrids less obviously go to.

Even before the patch byrid was king and will always be as you can, especially with a riven get the best sides of both. The change to CO not being multiplicative with itself hurts the hybrids jsut as much as the pure status weapons and doesn't make status weapons any worse comparatively.

[RedDirtTrooper]

Pretty well sums up the issues with the new melee. I'd have hammered range a little more. I feel like whips and polearms should both definitely be higher. I think War is currently the longest range weapon in the game at 3.2 meters, no polearms have a range higher than 3, and a few are lower than that, while whips got universally dropped to 2.5m except for the galvacord at 2.7m and blade & whips got dropped to 2.5m as well, except for the jat kusar at 2.4m. Feels very strange to have the Gram out range some polearms and every whip in the game.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

36 minutes ago, Raikh said:

CO is still an insanely strong mod.

That couldn’t be any less true.

Its just a worse version of pressure point now.

[Raikh]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

That couldn’t be any less true.

Its just a worse version of pressure point now.

It is 120% damage per ststus. At 2 statuses it already beats Primed Pressure Point by a fair amount. 3-4 statuses on a mob that actually live slong enough to take the hits are trivial without external help. If you add pre-stacking or warframe/sentinel abilties giving you extra status effects you get easily even more stacks.

Pressure Point is the mod that isn't worth a slot right now. If you use it, you're doing it wrong because CO just completely puts it out of business.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

53 minutes ago, Raikh said:

It is 120% damage per ststus. At 2 statuses it already beats Primed Pressure Point by a fair amount. 3-4 statuses on a mob that actually live slong enough to take the hits are trivial without external help. If you add pre-stacking or warframe/sentinel abilties giving you extra status effects you get easily even more stacks.

Pressure Point is the mod that isn't worth a slot right now. If you use it, you're doing it wrong because CO just completely puts it out of business.

Ok so how do you expect to always make sure you have atleast 2 Status procs on every enemy at all times? Cuz otherwise my first strike isn’t going to deal any form of significant damage.
I’ll give you a hint: you play Saryn and only Saryn forever, but she debuffs enemies so much already that it’s redundant to put CO on.

what you’re suggesting is that I backload my damage and increase my TTK instead of decreasing it.

Also Pressure point already became redundant when Primed Pressure Point was introduced.

Edited November 10, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Raikh]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

Ok so how do you expect to always make sure you have atleast 2 Status procs on every enemy at all times? Cuz otherwise my first strike isn’t going to deal any form of significant damage.
I’ll give you a hint: you play Saryn and only Saryn forever, but she debuffs enemies so much already that it’s redundant to put CO on.

what you’re suggesting is that I backload my damage and increase my TTK instead of decreasing it.

Also Pressure point already became redundant when Primed Pressure Point was introduced.

Unless you pre-stack your first swing will indeed deal less damage. But given how most good stances have alot of multihits and forced procs that hardly matters. With forced procs you can get up to 2 status procs with one swing, if that swing has multi hits you can get even more than 2 procs from your first input. There are alot of crit viable weapons with high base status chance which get high enough status to be reliable with just 2 dual status mods and if you really want to be sure Weeping Wounds is extremely storng right now and can easily bring anything with a somewhat okay of status chance to 100%

If you are fighting like 50 below enemies they won't live to get statuses on thme but for those its pretty much irrelevant how you build your weapon they are jsut gonna die and I won't argue about situations where its irrelevant how you build your weapon.

This isn't a hypothesis, I've replaced my Primed Pressure Point as its no longer worth it and I've absolutely no problem with status ramp. and I've been killing high level enemies with that setup faster. Playing without CO is a major dmg loss even if you still run PPP. Feel free to just test it with a properly build melee.

And if status stacking were a problem CO would've been bad before but it wasn't. It was insanely broken. You don't need a Saryn to apply status. She is certainly good at pushing CO further but then again she has problems surviving enemies where that would be needed.

I also assumed it was obvious I was talking about the thing in general when I said Pressure Point, not the unprimed version in particular, I just didn't bother to specify it.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb RedDirtTrooper:

Pretty well sums up the issues with the new melee. I'd have hammered range a little more. I feel like whips and polearms should both definitely be higher. I think War is currently the longest range weapon in the game at 3.2 meters, no polearms have a range higher than 3, and a few are lower than that, while whips got universally dropped to 2.5m except for the galvacord at 2.7m and blade & whips got dropped to 2.5m as well, except for the jat kusar at 2.4m. Feels very strange to have the Gram out range some polearms and every whip in the game.

The whip rnage in particular is a bit strange since rnage was the only thing really going for them. I personally can't stand them so I haven't seen it till a few days after the patch and its a strange decision, especially as I don't see thme being crazy dps mosnters now either.

Blade & Whip feel pretty good to me though. Haven't payed attention if the whip has the same range as the blade now but before it was pretty awkard with the hsort blade and th elong whip to compeltely connect a combo properly. It feels a lot more smooth now.

I think it wouldn't hurt to separate the dedicated long range melees a bit more from the rest, but I also like how range isn't that much of a deciding factor for weapons anymore which helps a lot of weapon classes see more use.

[RedDirtTrooper]

6 hours ago, Raikh said:

The whip rnage in particular is a bit strange since rnage was the only thing really going for them. I personally can't stand them so I haven't seen it till a few days after the patch and its a strange decision, especially as I don't see thme being crazy dps mosnters now either.

Blade & Whip feel pretty good to me though. Haven't payed attention if the whip has the same range as the blade now but before it was pretty awkard with the hsort blade and th elong whip to compeltely connect a combo properly. It feels a lot more smooth now.

I think it wouldn't hurt to separate the dedicated long range melees a bit more from the rest, but I also like how range isn't that much of a deciding factor for weapons anymore which helps a lot of weapon classes see more use.

Yeah, I'm not adverse to what they did to weapon range, I just think a few cases need tuned better. As for more weapons seeing use, well, I mean that would be great, and I imagine you'll see way more running normal star chart missions, but the loss of maiming strike, and nerfs  to BR and CO also took a lot of them out of the running all together. If you aren't picking something with good crit and decent status you are definitely limiting your damage output a lot. Not really sure how you could fix it though. Any tool that would add enough crit or status chance to make BR and CO viable on weapons with low status/crit would just be abused at the higher end to make the best weapons even better.

[DrivaMain]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’ll give you a hint: you play Saryn and only Saryn forever,

Or you could just use a status primary or secondary to "prime" enemies so you can stack CO for extra damage. I am using a 100% status cyanex and gaze to quicky spread status to enemies and then mow them down with a CO melee. I find that tactic very effective.

[(PSN)NeunDrachen]

It confuses me when people automatically assume saryns the only one that can prime enemies with statuses. Shes actually the worst and most basic if your aim is status stacking.

 

The best one atm is mirage.

 

On topic, while there alot of tweaks that need to happen, overall i think this is a step in the right direction. From what ive seen, DE focused on stances and stats first and then mods, primarily on the OP ones like CO and BR. This is apparent considering weeping and the glad set werent working when the update went live. 

 

A simple tweak to how PPP and the crit mods work would rectify any problems people might have with the nerfs. Rather than focus on how br and co are the best mods on builds atm, itd pay them to look at sacrificial mods, ppp and the other crit mods and how those can be improved to fit the new system considering how significant ppp and sacrificial mods are story and gameplay wise.

 

 

[Arkandae]

Il y a 1 heure, (PS4)NeunDrachen a dit :

It confuses me when people automatically assume saryns the only one that can prime enemies with statuses. Shes actually the worst and most basic if your aim is status stacking.

 

The best one atm is mirage.

Maybe not the best but I don't see why "the worst". She brings 3 statuses you don't have to put on your weapons,with 2 being very easily applied. Mirage applies them a bit faster, but she doesn't bring more status (well except maybe if you use sleight of hand and prism, I don't know if they apply status effect but I wouldn't bother with them).

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Or you could just use a status primary or secondary to "prime" enemies so you can stack CO for extra damage. I am using a 100% status cyanex and gaze to quicky spread status to enemies and then mow them down with a CO melee. I find that tactic very effective.

That increases TTK because you have to take extra time to shoot them before meleeing them.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

We won't be having units like Wolf of Saturn Six running around in every starchart mission so CO is still a better option. For warframe ability as a primer for status, I say use Ember or Gauss. Armor strips plus stackable heat procs.

[IceColdHawk]

14 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That couldn’t be any less true.

Its just a worse version of pressure point now.

Wat? 1 status proc alone on an enemy is equal to pressure point. 2 Status procs and the mod is already 75% damage more worth than primed pressure point. And it goes only stronger the more procs the enemy has. If anything, CO is now making PP redundant and you have one more mod slot open.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

27 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Wat? 1 status proc alone on an enemy is equal to pressure point. 2 Status procs and the mod is already 75% damage more worth than primed pressure point. And it goes only stronger the more procs the enemy has. If anything, CO is now making PP redundant and you have one more mod slot open.

Primed Pressure point is better. More upfront damage ensures smaller enemies die in 1 hit without requiring a Status proc on them. And as stated before the only frame who can constantly apply 2 Status procs is Saryn. And she doesn’t need that amount of damage on her melee because her debuffing is so strong.

and using a multi Status gun to pre stack status on an enemy takes extra time that could be better spent just killing the enemy.

 

Edited November 10, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Dragazer]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Primed Pressure point is better. More upfront damage ensures smaller enemies die in 1 hit without requiring a Status proc on them. And as stated before the only frame who can constantly apply 2 Status procs is Saryn. And she doesn’t need that amount of damage on her melee because her debuffing is so strong.

and using a multi Status gun to pre stack status on an enemy takes extra time that could be better spent just killing the enemy.

 

No one cares about the smaller trash mobs that die in one hit anyways. Its the heavy units that don't die in a single hit regardless of having PPP or not that matters. Its with the heavy units that CO completely outclasses PPP. I'd advise ppl on consoles to play the update first b4 making comments on the stat/mod changes. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 minute ago, Dragazer said:

. I'd advise ppl on consoles to play the update first b4 making comments on the stat/mod changes. 

Oh the classic “you’re on console so your opinion doesn’t matter” comment. Well that can only mean one thing. I’ve one this argument. Because you wouldn’t resort to saying that if you didn’t have some solid defense.

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Oh the classic “you’re on console so your opinion doesn’t matter” comment. Well that can only mean one thing. I’ve one this argument. Because you wouldn’t resort to saying that if you didn’t have some solid defense.

I don't care if you play on console/pc, the fact is that you haven't played with the melee update yet which gives you a skewed perspective on the matter. And its almost like you've selectively chosen to ignore:

6 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

No one cares about the smaller trash mobs that die in one hit anyways. Its the heavy units that don't die in a single hit regardless of having PPP or not that matters. Its with the heavy units that CO completely outclasses PPP. 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Dragazer said:

I don't care if you play on console/pc, 

 

I’d advise ppl on consoles to play the update first b4 making comments on the stat/mod changes

yes you clearly don’t care where an opinion comes from. /s

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’d advise ppl on consoles to play the update first b4 making comments on the stat/mod changes

yes you clearly don’t care where an opinion comes from. /s

Do you struggle with basic reading comprehension? Consoles don't have the update yet. How can one possibly give objective feedback without actually having play tested the changes themselves?

And once again you're pretending that's the only thing I said:

13 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

No one cares about the smaller trash mobs that die in one hit anyways. Its the heavy units that don't die in a single hit regardless of having PPP or not that matters. Its with the heavy units that CO completely outclasses PPP.

It seems like you just wanna focus on an offhand comment, rather than the actual argument I was making. It's almost as if:

11 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

you didn’t have some solid defense.

 

[IceColdHawk]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Primed Pressure point is better. More upfront damage ensures smaller enemies die in 1 hit without requiring a Status proc on them. And as stated before the only frame who can constantly apply 2 Status procs is Saryn. And she doesn’t need that amount of damage on her melee because her debuffing is so strong.

and using a multi Status gun to pre stack status on an enemy takes extra time that could be better spent just killing the enemy.

 

"Primed Pressure Point is better." So much less damage potential ensures you will have to leave earlier than you'd be able to just because of poor modding. Okay then. Not like crits and elementals alone ensure the death of weaker enemies and the overall higher attack speed across melees ensuring faster status procing in where 3 hits feel like 1 hit.

It's okay though. Please don't ever mod condition overload into your builds. Since things only get nerfed when being overused. We highly appreciate your engagement!

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

PC players do have the means to test this out of condition overload vs primed pressure point. Especially with heavy units instead of trash mobs.