Toxic lich hunter bullies are spreading "badwill", ban them.

[Portlalaland]

4 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

I mean not frame specter xD The ancient healer one. They use that dumb aura with -90% dmg for allies.

Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks! Learning something new everyday.

[Graavarg]

1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

Let's analyze the situation:

Player A joins a 4 people co-op mission.

Player A screws up over the other 3 people in the mission by intentionally preventing players B, C and D from progressing, all for player's A own benefit in spite of the rest.

Who's the one at fault here?

Yes, lets analyze:

Player A has something specific he/she wants to do in a mission, but joins a PUG co-op mission with three random players instead of forming a dedicated team through chat. Or doing it solo.

When random player B/C/D doesn't do what player A wants, player A starts screaming at player B/C/D in chat (or currently often by voice, so it will not show up on screenshots) that he/she is selfish, a noob, an idiot etc. etc. etc. including all kinds of threats.

Player A joined a mission with random players, all with their own objectives, but he/she simply cannot get through his/her head that they are not there to do his/her bidding. And that harassing other players and behaving that way under such circumstances just shows you are a complete egotistical dork as well as an idiot. And somehow forgetting that the completely normal thing to do when in a mission you don't like is to simply leave (it takes less than 5 seconds, ESC + "Abort").

So who's the one at fault here?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Graavarg

[Orblit]

6 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I am, but a lot of other people aren't. Doesn't seem like you're ready to understand that simple concept, though.

Think you just quoted me saying that I can see people aren't..cause they're the reason this current topic in warframe drama exists.

[Yoruno]

9 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Yes, lets analyze:

Player A has something specific he/she wants to do in a mission, but joins a PUG co-op mission with three random players instead of forming a dedicated team through chat.

When random player B/C/D doesn't do what player A wants, player A starts screaming at player B/C/D in chat (or currently often by voice,

Except in this case player B and C plans to cooperate and are expecting the same in return from player A and D while player D refuses to clear his lich for reasons, so player D gets the flak from player A/B/C since player D's action not only affects player A but also player B and C too.

Also did you read what i wrote? i want to know if you are aware of the 2 points i mentioned.

Do you know that the amount of thrall conversions per mission is limited to 15? and that liches only makes them convert sooner, not more?

Do you know that dying to any other source than requiem check while lich is spawned makes your lich leave without ranking them up?

Adding to that, now that you know you can circumvent the rankup while make it despawn, and that thrall conversion is just a tad faster, for what reason would you not clear your lich for the duration of the mission from now on?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

8 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

Except in this case player B and C plans to cooperate and are expecting the same in return from player A and D while player D refuses to clear his lich for reasons, so player D gets the flak from player A/B/C since player D's action not only affects player A but also player B and C too.

Also did you read what i wrote? i want to know if you are aware of the 2 points i mentioned.

Do you know that the amount of thrall conversions per mission is limited to 15? and that liches only makes them convert sooner, not more?

Do you know that dying to any other source than requiem check while lich is spawned makes your lich leave without ranking them up?

Adding to that, now that you know you can circumvent the rankup while make it despawn, and that thrall conversion is just a tad faster, for what reason would you not clear your lich for the duration of the mission from now on?

You shouldn't have to die to get rid of your lich hiwever

[Yoruno]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

You shouldn't have to die to get rid of your lich hiwever

same could be said for figuring out requiem order too but as it stands, it works in both cases and the only downside is that you lose one revive. That's about it.

Edit: Actually im not sure if you have to revive for lich to despawn, just getting downed might work too, havent paid attention to that part.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Yoruno
actually.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, Yoruno said:

same could be said for figuring out requiem order too but as it stands, it works in both cases and the only downside is that you lose one revive. That's about it.

You shouldn't have to be punished for winning the long run overall. It's not it is what it is. More so why is this the way it is. Nobody likes death in video games and to die because without proper reason or being forced to just to progress again without proper reason or reward or NEED isn't okay. Stop telling people to just die it's just one revive when in reality it's just a flawed system

[Yoruno]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

You shouldn't have to be punished for winning the long run overall. It's not it is what it is. More so why is this the way it is. Nobody likes death in video games and to die because without proper reason or being forced to just to progress again without proper reason or reward or NEED isn't okay. Stop telling people to just die it's just one revive when in reality it's just a flawed system

I'm talking about what players can do for now. Now that you know you can avoid the friction with other players and also circumvent the annoying mechanic for a worthless revive until something changes. But you still dont want to do it because you just dont feel right, at the cost of getting flak yourself, getting pissed at the broken system and getting into a S#&$slinging fest with pub then..

Well, I said it because the main reason people didn't want to kill seemed to be that they don't want the lich to rank up and give them more trouble but i guess i saw wrong.

[zoffmode]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

You shouldn't have to be punished for winning the long run overall. It's not it is what it is. More so why is this the way it is. Nobody likes death in video games and to die because without proper reason or being forced to just to progress again without proper reason or reward or NEED isn't okay. Stop telling people to just die it's just one revive when in reality it's just a flawed system

Not the most perfect system, but I'd say you're getting too emotionally invested in video games if "dying is not okay". Learn to differentiate between real life and fantasy before it's too late.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

Not the most perfect system, but I'd say you're getting too emotionally invested in video games if "dying is not okay". Learn to differentiate between real life and fantasy before it's too late.

Im well aware of the line between both. Players shouldn't be punished for doing nothing wrong.

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, zoffmode said:

Not the most perfect system, but I'd say you're getting too emotionally invested in video games if "dying is not okay". Learn to differentiate between real life and fantasy before it's too late.

It's basic psychology and literally game design 101, you do not arbitrarily kill your players they do not like it. 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

9 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

I'm talking about what players can do for now. Now that you know you can avoid the friction with other players and also circumvent the annoying mechanic for a worthless revive until something changes. But you still dont want to do it because you just dont feel right, at the cost of getting flak yourself, getting pissed at the broken system and getting into a S#&$slinging fest with pub then..

Well, I said it because the main reason people didn't want to kill seemed to be that they don't want the lich to rank up and give them more trouble but i guess i saw wrong.

Also it's a public lobby. Do you expect everyone to do what you want in a public lobby? No. The lich system is flawed fundamentally  and with that brought out people's true colors.as a player in pubs I canf tell people I don't know what to do. Hindrance or not if it dosent violate tos or its flat out cheating it's not anything that I can take action against. Harassing or demanding people to kill the lich isn't okay when it's entirely optional. There's no true negatives to ignoring you lich as well. He won't rank up in many cases the mission will go on. And you can still get mumurs from thralls. You can still go about your mission ignoring your lich. And if someone would like for theirs to spawn so bad player matchmaking is the most optimized way of doing it (do you expect to really do a 4x3 tri cap with a random squad as soon as you spawn into cetus at night because it's night time and people should expect eidolon hunters? No) so the whole idea of telling someone how to play is just flat out stupid at least imo

[Yoruno]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

It's basic psychology and literally game design 101, you do not arbitrarily kill your players they do not like it. 

 

The idea seems to be that

-IF you can win against current lich, it will rank up (by means of requiem guessing game) so it gets stronger for the next encounter.

-IF you cannot win against current rank lich, it won't rank up (by means of you dying and him despawning) so it stays the same for next encounter.

The idea makes sense, its the execution that is shaky at best. for that idea to work players shouldn't have had any means of escape so it turns into a do or die situation. that itself has big issues too.

I don't enjoy dying to wrong guesses either and i still dont like it but you get used to it after afew liches, not worth getting worked up over it.

[Yoruno]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Also it's a public lobby. Do you expect everyone to do what you want in a public lobby? No. The lich system is flawed fundamentally  and with that brought out people's true colors.as a player in pubs I canf tell people I don't know what to do. Hindrance or not if it dosent violate tos or its flat out cheating it's not anything that I can take action against. Harassing or demanding people to kill the lich isn't okay when it's entirely optional. There's no true negatives to ignoring you lich as well. He won't rank up in many cases the mission will go on. And you can still get mumurs from thralls. You can still go about your mission ignoring your lich. And if someone would like for theirs to spawn so bad player matchmaking is the most optimized way of doing it (do you expect to really do a 4x3 tri cap with a random squad as soon as you spawn into cetus at night because it's night time and people should expect eidolon hunters? No) so the whole idea of telling someone how to play is just flat out stupid at least imo

What you're saying would hold water IF the community is atleast at 50/50 split, at which point the entire community would give up pubbing because there's a chance of atleast 1-2 person in every pub keeping their lich alive blocking others, thus simply not worth going pub if they want to have their own lich up. so yes you are right.

But that isn't the case. The people wanting to keep lich alive in pub is in the minority low enough that even now players are reliably getting pubs that would willingly kill their lich. Assuming someone runs into a pub with a lich holder once every 5 pubs, that's 1 player D out of 15 possible teammates.

Because the odd is that significant where the players that wants lich killed and also kill their own, is far more than players who don't, killing your lich in pub became an expected courtesy in pub, sort of like an unspoken rule like with waiting for teammates in elevator, or not extracting in fissures until every got the traces. Only to get this player D once every 5 pubs with his own rules.

In any case harassment and abuse is not ok.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Yoruno
gramma

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, Yoruno said:

The idea seems to be that

-IF you can win against current lich, it will rank up (by means of requiem guessing game) so it gets stronger for the next encounter.

-IF you cannot win against current rank lich, it won't rank up (by means of you dying and him despawning) so it stays the same for next encounter.

The idea makes sense, its the execution that is shaky at best. for that idea to work players shouldn't have had any means of escape so it turns into a do or die situation. that itself has big issues too.

I don't enjoy dying to wrong guesses either and i still dont like it but you get used to it after afew liches, not worth getting worked up over it.

Thing is it should never have happened in the first place.

That isn't a choice, you walk into that encounter and your options are dying or downing, that isn't a choice. Well I guess there is a third option.... heccin ignoring your Lich lol. Sad that the only option that is a real option is to not engage in the content. 

Thing is they could have accomplished the exact same end game and simply presented it to the player in with only slight alterations. 

-When you down your Lich and go in for the Parazon attempt, you stab them and if it is incorrect what happens is your Lich "dies" with and vanishes while issuing an ominous threat that "this isn't the end..." as for the VFX well Grendel has a pretty decent dissolve effect, just have them implode in on themselves. Your Liches power increases and their influence expands as per normal but the player feels like they actually did something instead of walking into a scene from BOSHY "lol you died, lol, lol, you died". 

-Now when your Lich actually legit downs you instead of just vanishing they pull off a hulk leap or Tyl Regor teleport to where you are and preforms their little execute animation. Like magic it just all works, the base systems haven't changed but the player psychology has. 

It's not hard

 

The kicker is I'm pretty darn sure why we got the system we did and why they didn't change it to a system that gives the players a feeling of agency. 

[Yoruno]

28 minutes ago, Oreades said:

-snip-

you should've been in pablo's twitch stream hours ago because that swap is exactly what i asked. More specifically why we are getting this lich-ranking-up-on-kill version and not lich-ranking-up-on-death-with-wrong-requiems version that it could've been.

I want the latter version too since it was also closer to what steve was saying but the answer was "designs changed." so i give up on digging further for now, atleast not until after DE manages to release new war for christmas. Since thats the only thing they actually gave a release window on big stage i imagine that has been their priority this year. Maybe.

I can tell where you're going with your reason, personally id rather not touch that can of worm.

Edit: for all i know if we focus the feedback more on promoting lich-ranking-up-on-death-with-wrong-requiems system instead of just one of the issues that comes from lich-ranking-up-on-kill maybe DE will reconsider.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Yoruno
just maybe.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

37 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

But that isn't the case. The people wanting to keep lich alive in pub is in the minority low enough that even now players are reliably getting pubs that would willingly kill their lich. Assuming someone runs into a pub with a lich holder once every 5 pubs, that's 1 player D out of 15 possible teammates.

Please prove the source where this is found 

[zoffmode]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Please prove the source where this is found 

While there is clearly no source and you absolutely know this and just asking just to be cheeky and annoying, I'll back it up with my personal experience.

I do my Liches in public quite often and only ever seen one person refuse to kill his Lich. Coincidentally, he was also the only one being toxic in all of my Lich missions.

[Yoruno]

1 minute ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Please prove the source where this is found 

I don't have data with reference in hand apart from afew people's experience including mine with 9 liches so tell me what kinda source you want. a vote poll sounds easy enough to do. No way i can get my hands on internal data of player chat logs + lich spawn  mission data tho, not even DE would have that readily available.

[Oreades]

33 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

you should've been in pablo's twitch stream hours ago because that swap is exactly what i asked. More specifically why we are getting this lich-ranking-up-on-kill version and not lich-ranking-up-on-death-with-wrong-requiems version that it could've been.

Oh I was, there was much curious listening and intermittent bouts of internal screaming. 

[Yoruno]

5 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Oh I was, there was much curious listening and intermittent bouts of internal screaming. 

At the same time I do feel bad bringing whats essentially his "work" to his downtime in weekend, if it was any other profession this is good enough reason for the guy to get pissed. Hell people don't pick up their phone from their employers in normal off days.

Edited November 17, 2019 by Yoruno
typo

[-Jorsch-]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Yes, lets analyze:

Player A has something specific he/she wants to do in a mission, but joins a PUG co-op mission with three random players instead of forming a dedicated team through chat. Or doing it solo.

When random player B/C/D doesn't do what player A wants, player A starts screaming at player B/C/D in chat (or currently often by voice, so it will not show up on screenshots) that he/she is selfish, a noob, an idiot etc. etc. etc. including all kinds of threats.

Player A joined a mission with random players, all with their own objectives, but he/she simply cannot get through his/her head that they are not there to do his/her bidding. And that harassing other players and behaving that way under such circumstances just shows you are a complete egotistical dork as well as an idiot. And somehow forgetting that the completely normal thing to do when in a mission you don't like is to simply leave (it takes less than 5 seconds, ESC + "Abort").

So who's the one at fault here?

You are the player at fault.

[-Kittens-]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Yes, lets analyze:

Player A has something specific he/she wants to do in a mission, but joins a PUG co-op mission with three random players instead of forming a dedicated team through chat. Or doing it solo.

When random player B/C/D doesn't do what player A wants, player A starts screaming at player B/C/D in chat (or currently often by voice, so it will not show up on screenshots) that he/she is selfish, a noob, an idiot etc. etc. etc. including all kinds of threats.

Player A joined a mission with random players, all with their own objectives, but he/she simply cannot get through his/her head that they are not there to do his/her bidding. And that harassing other players and behaving that way under such circumstances just shows you are a complete egotistical dork as well as an idiot. And somehow forgetting that the completely normal thing to do when in a mission you don't like is to simply leave (it takes less than 5 seconds, ESC + "Abort").

So who's the one at fault here?

You both are, but spawning in a public mission where the general agreeance across warframe is PTFO, and as it happens the one not playing the #$%%#$% objective is you. If you're in lich controlled territory in a public game, you're expected to deal with your lich as simple courtesy, You being unwilling to give that simple courtesy makes you the @$$hole in this situation. Whether you deserve abuse or not is a completely separate context; and no you probably don't deserve abuse, but you're still the jerk here. If you spawn a lich and then decide not do deal with it, you're actively hindering everybody else and then petulantly claiming the high ground which, in fact, doesn't exist. Play private, period.

 

You're right up there with northeast corner guy on Akkad and random four tiles away polymer farmer barrel destroyer on ViP Hostage Slash Proc Sortie and I didn't bring anything but a melee weapon to Kela De Thaym.

Edited November 17, 2019 by -Kittens-

[Test-995]

2 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

objective

Is mission objective, nothing else.

You don't even have to kill thralls... really.

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, Yoruno said:

At the same time I do feel bad bringing whats essentially his "work" to his downtime in weekend, if it was any other profession other this is good enough reason for the guy to get pissed. Hell people don't pick up their phone from their employers in normal off days.

Yeah I definitely get that, and there was a ton of things I really wanted to hear explanations for that I just  couldn't bring myself to ask for exactly that reason. I will give Pablo that he was very pleasant with his responses even if I didn't always agree. 

Sry just ate a giant bowl of fancy Ramen and then passed out lol