Limitations on Umbra Forma need to be lifted

[zakaryx]

What level enemies require you to have that extra 100% crit chance(more for heavy attack)? I'm honestly curious here.

Edited December 6, 2019 by zakaryx

[grindbert]

On 2019-12-06 at 1:05 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

As somebody that was one? Not using Umbral mods is where they are.

This game has mechanics that scale above and beyond the basic functions of Effective Health, Ability Strength and so on.

A team of four, depending on the task, actually does better without Umbral builds on the frames. What Loki needs Strength? A speed Nova actively doesn’t want it. Does an Octavia or a Nekros have any real benefit to more than neutral Strength when building for long runs? Nope.

Same with many weapons that don’t benefit at all from the Sacrificial mods.

Speed runners in Warframe particularly don’t use them because ability efficiency and unique animation functions are more important. The only three that really benefit from Strength for speed runs are Rhino, Oberon and Chroma and only in the context of Eidolon hunts to kill large health pools quickly.

These mods have their place, true, but stop thinking that they’re all-important tools for min-maxing or endgame content. Several frames work better if you entirely forego survivability in that sense and have mechanical survivability from either abilities or mods that don’t directly affect health. Depending on the content of course.

Umbral Forma is not, and will never be, the normal kind of Forma. It is designed to be doled out in drips and designed to limit your choice.

When that is the goal, the exact designed intent, then your arguments to make it more available because you don’t enjoy limitations will entirely fall flat.

i doubt your credibility here. when going for endurance leaderboards and eidolon speed runs in the recent months i have been asked nearly every time if my frame of choice was full umbra. sure, some don't need them, but for those who did it was an absolute prerequisite. when i said i wasn't full umbra on my chroma (before i got the mod last month) i was kicked out of 6x3 parties in the blink of an eye. which is even more critical now that blink has been pretty much deleted.

also, who the hell uses nekros for endurance? i'm not talking about farmruns but leaderboards.

as you said, you might have been one, i'll grant you that. but the standards have changed.

and no argument falls flat. if umbra was designed to be a scarce thing it's a S#&$ design and should be either changed or completely removed from the game. limiting power creep through scarcity has always been a garbage excuse to introduce that power creep in the first place.

 

  

On 2019-12-06 at 1:37 PM, zakaryx said:

What level enemies require you to have that extra 100% crit chance(more for heavy attack)? I'm honestly curious here.

it's not necessarily the level, it's about being able to reach 100% red crit on certain weapons for the ideal hybrid builds while being at the same time able to forego that crit on the riven so you can go for other crucial stats to squeeze as much damage out of those 8 mod slots.

level where that's necessary? i dunno .. 500+? but as i said a million times, it's not even about the need. you can play all the content in this game without mods at all. why do they even exist in the first place then? why not delete all mods and formas and just adjust the enemy stats? because it never has been about what you need but about the power fantasy slaughtering millions of clones or cancer dogs or robots gives you. a power fantasy that remains incomplete unless you get those umbra forma to get the perfect build.

 

that is however not the point. the point is player choice. even if somebody decides to make a garbage build on their melee they should be able and allowed to do it without having to decide for one weapon out of hundreds. especially when the slightest change to riven disposition might throw their build off the cliff.

de are always going on about player choice. they nerfed the catchmoon  because "it was a non-choice". and yet here we are having a plethora of nonchoices, at least if you want to be competitive. you wanna do 6x3 with chroma? you better be full umbra. you want to run endurance arbitration? better be full umbra on that gara (that is not even prime).

the only choice you have here is to decide if you want to stay competitive and make 3-4 new accounts or have fun with frames and forego any chance of getting into good speed run teams.

i have about 8 melee weapons that could be perfected with a single umbra forma. i will never do that because that would mean investing nearly 3 years worth of nw into them. they will not be used, they will rot away and will be ultimately sold because i am not one to play with substandard gear.

same goes for warframes. i would love to play with ember prime. but why would i when every single second i play i am reminded that she is lacking because i had to umbra my chroma for eidolons and wasted the other two on wukong who was recently nerfed to the ground.

this entire thing is not a good mechanic. when you receive a reward you should be happy, not miserable because it reminds you of something bad.

Edited December 13, 2019 by grindbert

[Ham_Grenabe]

So in this thread the umbralness or non-umbralness of your gear means you can't be competitive, or (as someone said here somewhere) you'll be 4-5% less effective than your competition.

Who is that competition, exactly? Is there somebody out there on the verge of winning at Warframe?

[grindbert]

that competition are other players who either kill 6 eidolons in less time than me or players who can stay 3-4 minutes longer than me in specific arbitrations.

in those scenarios those 4-5% matter a lot. 

kids nowadays might have forgotten but competition does not have to be provided by the developer. tournaments can be organised by communities, leaderboards can be set up externally. competition derives from the will to compete between specific groups or individuals, it is not an imperative or lack thereof dictated by the providing organisation? or did you think the olympics were set up by the people who invented running fast and throwing things far?

as it has been done since the dawn of warframe. raid speed runs were the big thing back then, now we have eidolons, orbs and arbitrations.

Edited December 13, 2019 by grindbert

[QuinnCarter]

I've been reading your replies and honestly you just seem salty over something you are putting way too much value into.

If you think you NEED umbra mods on everything, look at my Tekko Prime build again, you don't need umbra forma because you don't need both umbra mods on it, the added crit chance from having both is not worth the lost damage bonus from losing Primed Pressure Point. Most builds can comfortably fit in umbra mods once properly forma'd and some don't even benefit from having umbra builds at all. What's a pure status melee build gonna do with crit chance anyway? What's Loki or Octavia gonna do with armour and power strength?

Sounds like you just think umbra mods are the be all end all which is not true.

[Redwyrm]

I am totally ok with Umbra Forma been much harder to acquire than normal Forma. But not like one Forma every 3 month, providing you actively playing every single day.

That's just promoting elitism...

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, grindbert said:

also, who the hell uses nekros for endurance?

Don’t know if you noticed the past tense phrase ‘used to be one’?

Before the Kuva Survival update endurance team runs did enjoy Nekros because Life Support didn’t drop every two minutes like clockwork. Previously the system used to take incrementally longer between pods and so having a frame that would increase your drops to compensate was basic logic.

Now? Not so much, one of the reasons I got out of endurance was the trivialisation of them with changes like the Pod timing.

In any case, you cannot take the elitist view of ‘multiple meta-hogs kicked me for not being specific enough for them’ as gospel. The butt-hattery of the few is neither the opinion nor the fact of the whole.

Oh, you didn’t bring an Ivara for fishing? Kicked because you can’t do this content. That is literally how stupid that sounds.

You do not need this thing, you only want it because everyone else seems to want it.

8 hours ago, grindbert said:

if umbra was designed to be a scarce thing it's a S#&$ design and should be either changed or completely removed from the game.

And that’s flat baby logic. That’s ‘if I can’t have exactly what I want, then I don’t want it’ that’s ‘if I can’t have it, nobody should have it’.

Just keep playing, you will get Umbral Forma again. It’s a reward for play over time, not just some forced scarcity, and complaining that it takes too much time is the five year old in the back seat asking ‘are we there yet’ over and over again. We get there when we get there.

[FullMetalFox]

Honestly, as much as I'm all for people finding their own way to play, neither speedrunners, minmaxers nor role players are the main target group of Warframe.

If you really need to take it as far as making multiple accounts to min-max a couple more frames/weapons, then you are very far outside the main group and the usual game hours, no bashing, but I can't imagine having enough spare time to have more than 2 accounts without quitting my job.

And last but not least, very far outside what DE probably tries to do.
How much they succeed or fail at their plans is another question, but the game currently suffers from a very high power factoring between new and old players, to the point where I've seen a lot of new players hate the new lich system because their favorite frames cant handle those enemy power multiplications.
You may argue that you can overcome those high multipliers, and I won't argue there but agree, but the scope they've reached isn't funny anymore to the majority of players.
A good example was my Toxic Tonkor wielding Lich one-shotting pretty much any random player and even some self-claimed Umbra-Inaros player.

All in all, I don't believe that DE would cater to any kind of player minority that demands things that could damage their game even further by making it yet again easier to overpower everything. Unless they take a page out of Elite Dangerous's book...

So all this discussion and bashing of different playstyle will probably lead to nothing, except p*ss of those respective player groups being bashed.

[Uthael]

One good thing I've seen in this topic is:
"Let Umbra Forma be buyable in the Market, but only up to 3 (currently) per account."
If the game counts only the Umbra Forma installed and owned, this could solve the issue of "full umbral being a prerequisite for some parties".

You could overwrite the Umbral polarity with a normal Forma. Or just trash the frame. Then, you could buy an Umbra Forma again from the Market since you don't own 3 on that account anymore.

Optionally, instead of the Market, let Simaris sell them as a "recovered relic". Up to the limit, of course.

[Ham_Grenabe]

12 hours ago, grindbert said:

that competition are other players who either kill 6 eidolons in less time than me or players who can stay 3-4 minutes longer than me in specific arbitrations.

in those scenarios those 4-5% matter a lot. 

kids nowadays might have forgotten but competition does not have to be provided by the developer. tournaments can be organised by communities, leaderboards can be set up externally. competition derives from the will to compete between specific groups or individuals, it is not an imperative or lack thereof dictated by the providing organisation? or did you think the olympics were set up by the people who invented running fast and throwing things far?

as it has been done since the dawn of warframe. raid speed runs were the big thing back then, now we have eidolons, orbs and arbitrations.

"Kids nowadays." Really?

[(PSN)thegarada]

While I think that Umbra mods she drop more frequently. Why would you need it for Umbra trues steel? You need it for frame,s since there is a much higher mod capacity count requirement to fit all 3 Umbras and other powerful mods with high capacity (blind rage, narrow minded, primed continuity, among others, depending on your build). For melee weapons, it is only 16 capacity mod. Just put 2 regular formas for other polarities, and you will be more than fine. It is a waste to use Umbra forma on melee weapons, even if they drop for more often.