Kuva lich weapons should NOT have 40 levels of Mastery

[ShadowHvo]

I believe the title speaks for itself.

Today alone I've grinded 3 Kuva Lich weapons from 30 to 40, and wasted 15 forma in the process. I've been rather diligent in always keeping myself up to date on the mastery progression, but I honestly think that this is the breaking point.

The Paracesis' unique leveling bonus was a cute little gimmick when it were on a single weapon. But this system is now shared with 13 new Kuva weapons, which is an unfathomable lengthy and expensive grind.

To express this pain, let me simply say this: To reach full mastery with a weapon, it usually takes 30 levels. But reaching full mastery with the Paracesis, and now each of the kuva weapons, takes 210 levels + 5 formas. With the Kuva weapons alone, that's 2730 levels... which usually would've amounted to 91 weapons fully mastery ranked.

It takes the same amount of affinity to level 91 weapons, as it does the 13 kuva lich weapons.

That is simply far too much of a grind in order to reach mastery with a weapon, and thus earn its associated progression points. I'm sorry to write this, in particular since I really like the new Kuva Lich system, as well as you, DE, as the developers.. But whomever thought that this decision seemed fair and fun really is a masochist.

It would've been cute and fine had these weapons just been capable of reaching level 40 without the need to forma it 5 times, since that would only be 10 additional levels of grinding per kuva weapon... But you've instead opted to make it 210 additional levels... simply in order to stay up-to-date on the mastery progression.


Congratulation to everyone who can endure this insane grind. I feel your pain, even if I refuse to indulge in this lunacy of a "progression" any longer.

[Xaero]

As someone who maxed out every kuva weapon, I support the idea of removing 5 forma requirement for reaching lv 40.

[DreisterDino]

I simply ignore all this MR-Nonsense.

I put as many Forma into a Weapon as i feel it needs and if i like the weapon to begin with,

and if not i dont give a * about some lousy MR-Points.

 

I am not that stupid to waste my time and ressources on something like that just to get meaningless progression in MR a little more early.

Yes i agree, the system is stupid, but if you are doing all of it although you hate it just for MR-Points...well...i'll stop here 😉

Edited December 1, 2019 by DreisterDino

[Loza03]

It's too late to remove the mastery, because, well, people have the master. Best case we can ask for is a reduction of the required forma to acquire it, to 2. Still fits into 10 ranks easily, still gets across the idea, considerably less grind to get there.

[Oreades]

Here's the thing, I'm totally fine with them going up to level 40 and getting those extra 10-20 Mod capacity..... 

However~ tying Mastery to obligate forma usage is gross manipulative BS of the highest order and hecc that noise. I do not see myself touching this content or any future "Nemesis" content, as far as I'm cornered it doesn't exist. 

They want to change that it seems pretty darn simple, decouple MR from forma usage and never pull that nonsense again and I would pick up my second Lich the day that drops. Until then they can keep throwing whatever resources they like on a system I'm never going to touch outside of burning X relics for Traces to use on actually important relics (Read: I - IX)

[Firetempest]

Could, I don't know. Get the 3000 base xp and move on? There will be more xp available then necessary by the time MR30 exists.

60 forma to get the equivalent of 4 extra weapons MR xp is self inflicted.

They could just cut the MR off at rank 30. leave the extra 10 levels for those that actually like the weapon. That will solve the "lunacy".

Edited December 1, 2019 by Firetempest

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It's too late to remove the mastery, because, well, people have the master. Best case we can ask for is a reduction of the required forma to acquire it, to 2. Still fits into 10 ranks easily, still gets across the idea, considerably less grind to get there.

No they are very capable of admitting to their mistake and "ripping the bandage off" by....

• Setting them to tank out as all other gear at lvl 30 for their full MR as well as registering as Mastered 
• Keep the extra mod pool for the aforementioned 5 Forma investment. 

If they want to go the extra mile they could refund the Forma that people used in those weapons but they could also justify not doing so based on the fact that they retained the bonus mod pool. As people who invested those Forma don't lose out on any MR and they get to keep the bonus mod pool. 

Now begins the additional Litmus test... if people come in freaking out about that being a horrible scenario because "Then I just wasted those forma, I don't want/need those mod points" then it proves the point that this whole system was a cluster truck to begin, the only reason they did it was because they where being extorted for the Mastery and the whole system should have been scrubbed from the whiteboard before it ever made it into the game.

Either way best to get rid of it cleanly as well as once and for all than to let it linger half heatedly as a monument to failure. 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

No they are very capable of admitting to their mistake and "ripping the bandage off" by....

• Setting them to tank out as all other gear at lvl 30 for their full MR as well as registering as Mastered 
• Keep the extra mod pool for the aforementioned 5 Forma investment. 

If they want to go the extra mile they could refund the Forma that people used in those weapons but they could also justify not doing so based on the fact that they retained the bonus mod pool. As people who invested those Forma don't lose out on any MR and they get to keep the bonus mod pool. 

Now begins the additional Litmus test... if people come in freaking out about that being a horrible scenario because "Then I just wasted those forma, I don't want/need those mod points" then it proves the point that this whole system was a cluster truck to begin, the only reason they did it was because they where being extorted for the Mastery and the whole system should have been scrubbed from the whiteboard before it ever made it into the game.

Either way best to get rid of it cleanly as well as once and for all than to let it linger half heatedly as a monument to failure. 

What do you do about the 13,000 mastery left unaccounted for?

[Oreades]

Just now, Loza03 said:

What do you do about the 13,000 mastery left unaccounted for?

What unaccounted mastery? 

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

What unaccounted mastery? 

Each extra level on the rank 40 gear gives mastery. About 1,000 each total. Remove the rank 40, that means you remove the mastery. 13,000 in total.

Edit: 40,000 doesn't divide by 30.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Loza03

[Oreades]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

Each extra level on the rank 40 gear gives mastery. About 1,000 each total. Remove the rank 40, that means you remove the mastery. 13,000 in total.

Edit: 40,000 doesn't divide by 30.

Yes I am aware that they have more MR than a standard weapon, that is accounted for.

Because they will need to hard code them to tank out at their original bloated value when they hit rank 30. Because the brunt of their mistake should not be borne by the player, plus it would otherwise be a clusterhecc of dealing with strange rollbacks in current MR ranking if they didn't and god knows how much of a headache that would be in the long run. So the extra MR becomes something that they just absorb into the game. 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Oreades said:

Yes I am aware that they have more MR than a standard weapon, that is accounted for.

Because they will need to hard code them to tank out at their original bloated value when they hit rank 30. Because the brunt of their mistake should not be borne by the player, plus it would otherwise be a clusterhecc of dealing with strange rollbacks in current MR ranking if they didn't and god knows how much of a headache that would be in the long run. So the extra MR becomes something that they just absorb into the game. 

So, some players just get MR that nobody else can acquire ever again.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

So, some players just get MR that nobody else can acquire ever again.

As if that's a new thing to Warframe.

[Oreades]

Just now, Loza03 said:

So, some players just get MR that nobody else can acquire ever again.

Literally not what I've been saying..... 

These weapons from the Parececis to the Kuva Lich weapons simply become an aberration that awards more than the standard MR when they hit 30. 

[Loza03]

Just now, Oreades said:

Literally not what I've been saying..... 

These weapons from the Parececis to the Kuva Lich weapons simply become an aberration that awards more than the standard MR when they hit 30. 

40,000 doesn't go into 30.

1 minute ago, Gabbynaru said:

As if that's a new thing to Warframe.

And we all know how much people like that.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

I've leveled 11 of them to max, still missing two.

I think they should remove the forma requirement, and just let people level them straight to 40.  The weapons themselves are meh at best.  Its clearly just a forma sink to drive forma sales and I hope no one is buying.

 

[Gabbynaru]

Just now, Loza03 said:

And we all know how much people like that.

If all it takes for this BS to stop happening is having 13k mastery points become unavailable, I'll take the freakin' hit. MR doesn't have much use beyond MR12 anyway, and if people are really salty about not being able to get 13k MR points... I hope no one tells them about Primed Chamber.

[Oreades]

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

40,000 doesn't go into 30.

literally doesn't matter..... hard code them to give the extra MR when they hit 30. 

But if you're hung up on "it needs to be divisible" then round up a bit for these weapons to 1334 XP per level and they will tank out at 40,020 at lvl 30

Edited December 1, 2019 by Oreades

[Loza03]

Just now, Oreades said:

literally doesn't matter..... hard code them to give the extra MR when they hit 30. 

But if you're hung up on "it needs to be divisible" then round up a bit to 1334 XP per level and they will tank out at 40,020 per. 

This is the same company that tied stats to the mesh of modular weapons. They tied numeric values to physical appearance of that weapon. Not to the code that gave it that appearance, the appearance itself.

Do you really think it's that easy?

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

So, some players just get MR that nobody else can acquire ever again.

I dont see anyone suggesting that.

I see other options:

• Give full standing on achieving rank 30; or
• Give full standing on achieving rank 40 - and just don't require the forma application to get there
• Reduce requirement of forma - say you can get to rank 30 with no forma, rank 40 with 1 forma

and nothing needs to be divisible by anything to achieve any of this

[Oreades]

Just now, Loza03 said:

This is the same company that tied stats to the mesh of modular weapons. They tied numeric values to physical appearance of that weapon. Not to the code that gave it that appearance, the appearance itself.

Do you really think it's that easy?

This is the same company that just added a work around for the stats being tied to the stat mesh of the modular weapons so you can now use skins for them without borking their stat values. 

So yes... 

[notlamprey]

42 minutes ago, ShadowHvo said:

I believe the title speaks for itself.

It does, and I agree with you. 

The silver lining in all this mess for me was that it prompted me to go back and dip into Destiny some more. Spending some money to celebrate Bungie's self-purchase and freedom from Blizzard's launcher feels good - much better than spending the same amount of money to try and lessen the irritation of U26.

I'd be willing to lose all my Pride and Accomplishment™, all that forma and time and even the mastery xp, if it meant other people wouldn't have to deal with the grind and resource sink.

 

[Loza03]

Just now, Oreades said:

This is the same company that just added a work around for the stats being tied to the stat mesh of the modular weapons so you can now use skins for them without borking their stat values. 

So yes... 

It took them TWO YEARS.

This game, especially older systems, is quite evidently held together by sellotape and prayers. Not duct tape, store brand clear tape. Messing with the mastery system by adding in overrides like suggested would almost certainly break something important. I love DE, don't get me wrong, but good lord.

As for adding a not-round number, that's probably the best, but I'm pretty sure somebody would find a way to break it.

[Oreades]

3 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It took them TWO YEARS.

But how much of that two year period was it "this is impossible" vs "this isn't worth the effort", kinda get the feeling it was a lot more that second one than the first. I mean we are talking the company that took something over a Year to remove Archwing Charges from the game and that seems about as drop dead simple a task as it gets. 

Personally I attribute most of DEs slowness to either trying to wait out the playerbase (in the case of the AW charges, we'll eventually like em ryt?) or just back burnering everything under the sun. 

Since these weapons are already being addressed individually at some level, it would not seem like it would be a herculean effort to adapt that existing code to append an additional function to these specific weapons. 

 

 

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

But how much of that two year period was it "this is impossible" vs "this isn't worth the effort", kinda get the feeling it was a lot more that second one than the first. I mean we are talking the company that took something over a Year to remove Archwing Charges from the game and that seems about as drop dead simple a task as it gets. 

Personally I attribute most of DEs slowness to either trying to wait out the playerbase (in the case of the AW charges, we'll eventually like em ryt?) or just back burnering everything under the sun. 

Since these weapons are already being addressed individually at some level, it would not seem like it would be a herculean effort to adapt that existing code to append an additional function to these specific weapons. 

 

 

And therein lies the rub.

It is likely that they could, given time, fix this without much breakage. But it would divert a lot more effort and time expended, and the more time it's around, the more people get 'hurt' (airquotes) by the change, by engaging with the grind, then complaining that the change happened, as has happened oh so many times before.

Changing the requirements to two forma would be faster, easier, and thus get the problem solved much sooner, meaning less backlash.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Loza03