New Archwing controls, not allowing upside down :(

[ZoneDymo]

Not sure if to put this here but I want to give some feedback to the archwing controls that were recently added.

In general its fine, but I have one major issue with it...why....WHY, cant we fly upside down anymore?
When you fly up, you just hit this barrier at 90 degrees, same if you are flying down, cant do a loop, cant do a "barrel role", that just reaaaallly takes away from the experience of flight.
And what I fear a lot is that we cant even do it in space with the railjack update either...

Heck can the railjack even go "upside down" ?

ITS SPACE, there is no up or down and it should feel like that, I personally always had experimental flight enabled, did it make me better at flying? no.... infact it works against you a lot but who cares? It atleast made it actually feel a bit space like and that to me is more important.

Can we PLEASE get this option back and also have the "auto normal plain of operation roll" as an option?
(what I mean with that is, on the last devstream at some point Sheldon got off the controls of the Railjack to let Rebecca fly and the ship immediatly rolled to what I guess is the normal position...which... there should not even be one)

[Firetempest]

They are culling all the different flight modes and sticking to (trying to) making a single good one. And from the sounds of it. its only half done as usual and more changes to come with Empyrean. 

6 degrees of freedom aka, upside down and rolling would have some real merit if they ever designed a map that wasn't fixed to a specific horizontal orientation. Seems they want to pull away from ever doing puzzle mapping like Decent and just go full arcade which does not need that and simplifies everything.

[SnowRyder]

yeah rip flying experience , we have minecraft flying now

[MattHarrigan]

12 minutes ago, SnowRyder said:

yeah rip flying experience , we have minecraft flying now

Unfortunately yeah... reason is probably the same as why space sims whent out of style in the early 2000's: in the long run, people are just not comfortable with flying without horizon...

[ZoneDymo]

I actually reminds me a lot of Battlefield 2 (the original) vs Battlefield Bad Company and so on, it was so much less....idk real? more on rails, you go up, forward, land, like a bus or something.

Really want that changed.

And @ Firetempest, you do mention an important thing for me personally when you said " if they ever designed a map that wasn't fixed to a specific horizontal orientation "
That is such a thing warframe can improve in yet, in the devstreams leading up to the Jovian Concorde, with the rework of Jupiter, that sorta implied they went for some vertical gameplay but in the end, nope... and why not, why not go more up and down, climb a mountain etc for once, I think it would be a breath for fresh air 😞

[Ikusias]

10 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

And @ Firetempest, you do mention an important thing for me personally when you said " if they ever designed a map that wasn't fixed to a specific horizontal orientation "
That is such a thing warframe can improve in yet, in the devstreams leading up to the Jovian Concorde, with the rework of Jupiter, that sorta implied they went for some vertical gameplay but in the end, nope... and why not, why not go more up and down, climb a mountain etc for once, I think it would be a breath for fresh air 😞

Some of the new tiles have a lot more vertical area, altough my impression there as that DE went and made all tiles much larger (and with less resource cabinets than before)

[lukaself]

22 hours ago, Firetempest said:

6 degrees of freedom aka, upside down and rolling would have some real merit if they ever designed a map that wasn't fixed to a specific horizontal orientation

Afaik, on the contrary none of the original archwing game modes have been designed with a fixed orientation in mind. Even most trenches style tiles don't have visually identifiable up and down. Best instance of this is Caelus which looks very similar to the maps from the railjack streams: there's absolutely no way to tell up from down which is a problem now that the current flight model features a gimbal lock at the extreme sides of that 180 degrees pitch limitation. 

Because of the absence of visual point of reference you can't possibly tell where  the limit currently is without bumping against it. This, in turn, will make target tracking difficult, especially as they can still shoot you from angles you can't reach without navigating around the pivot. Hovering parallel to the ground makes sense in low orbit and on planets but nothing short of complete free-flight will work in deep space and asteroid fields, where most of Railjack's gameplay seems to be taking place. Not unless you consciously forego an axis and always circle around asteroids through either the left or right sides and never up or down. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by lukaself

[Firetempest]

6 hours ago, lukaself said:

Afaik, on the contrary none of the original archwing game modes have been designed with a fixed orientation in mind. Even most trenches style tiles don't have visually identifiable up and down.

Every trench room has a exit on it's sides, most "open" areas have a floor, either literally or from the absence of one. Debris tends to have fallen up down on the rooms. Piping lines the walls and barriers are always horizontal. The rooms were layered as a flat course. The astroid tile is the only one that felt good with freeflight because there was no structures or tunneling pushing you through the map. But again, the astroid areas were built in flat clusters, there was elevation changes between them but nothing directly above or below.

Enemies come to meet you and orbit you around the maps horizon line. They don't stay directly over or under you for long.

Their map structure don't require freeflight and they have never attempted otherwise.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Firetempest

[Aldain]

Aside from the "Wow I'm upside down" factor what purpose did going upside down actually serve?

[Steel_Rook]

23 hours ago, ZoneDymo said:

And @ Firetempest, you do mention an important thing for me personally when you said " if they ever designed a map that wasn't fixed to a specific horizontal orientation "
That is such a thing warframe can improve in yet, in the devstreams leading up to the Jovian Concorde, with the rework of Jupiter, that sorta implied they went for some vertical gameplay but in the end, nope... and why not, why not go more up and down, climb a mountain etc for once, I think it would be a breath for fresh air 😞

There's a world of difference between "verticality" and "6DOF," however. Verticality almost never requires you to go inverted or - in a lot of cases - even look more than 75 degrees up or down.

 

6 hours ago, lukaself said:

Because of the absence of visual point of reference you can't possibly tell where  the limit currently is without bumping against it. This, in turn, will make target tracking difficult, especially as they can still shoot you from angles you can't reach without navigating around the pivot.

Not that I've noticed, personally. Even asteroid field maps are laid out largely flat, with relatively little verticality beyond placing props on different levels. And while enemies CAN pass overhead, their pathing rarely seems to do that. The enemies themselves move more or less in plains, either hugging terrain or flying level. I understand the concern, but I've not run into it. Not to mention that this is solvable via UI displays, if it becomes an actual issue.

[lukaself]

2 hours ago, Firetempest said:

The astroid tile is the only one that felt good with freeflight because there was no structures or tunneling pushing you through the map. But again, the astroid areas were built in flat clusters, there was elevation changes between them but nothing directly above or below.

Enemies come to meet you and orbit you around the maps horizon line. They don't stay directly over or under you for long.

Their map structure don't require freeflight and they have never attempted otherwise.

 

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Even asteroid field maps are laid out largely flat, with relatively little verticality beyond placing props on different levels. And while enemies CAN pass overhead, their pathing rarely seems to do that.

Flat? I beg your pardon?  Guys, we can't possibly have been playing the same game:

 

All the game modes outside of trenches have been designed spherical and with an orientation pointing towards the center of the map, not according to a plane. All the defense objectives in Archwing are spheres and the enemy spawns are all around except in the obvious cases where a tile have only one exit and one entry point. The pursuit game mode even goes as far as requiring free-flight because some of those targets under and below the ship are almost impossible to track properly while keeping your speed up because of the 90° pitch limit up and down. In the coming Empyrean update, even the Railjack has free-flight and I did not see anyone complaining about that being confusing or disorientating, because everyone was too busy having their mouth hanging at how awesome it looked. As I said in another thread, if the archwing's purpose was only to hover safely on a fixed plane, the devs wouldn't have designed them as giant thrusters of doom rigged directly to your back.

And do I seriously have to point out the absurdity of requesting the devs to fix the inability of some players to learn how to fly 3D by designing an implementing and artificial horizon UI... in space? An optional auto-center setting instead would hopefully satisfy those of us who have a hard time finding their bearings in a three-dimensional space, not clutter an already very busy UI, be way more cost and time efficient for the devs, would not impair controller users by requiring more buttons and less limiting for those of us who do not like arbitrary limitations in a game that wasn't designed for them in the first place.

We can all get what we want, if we stay constructive instead of thinking someone necessarily has to lose something to gain something.

Edited December 11, 2019 by lukaself

[Educated_Beast]

Maybe this is because a controller on Xbox or PS4 is limited in how many buttons they can use.  Instead of just leaving roll, it turned into blink.  

I don't get it, space bar is doing nothing now because we also lost ability to go medium speed.  Space should have been new blink and let us keep roll.  

I like the new controlls better, but not because I lost functionality, just because they allow us to stop.  All we need now is some thruster animation to show the stop, and require some keyboard input.  

For example, Itzal can stop on a dime but only when press #2 ability.  That was one of other reasons we love Itzal.  So, just have a button to press that "breaks".  It should be a fast stop, but not as fast as we have it.  A little momentum and some thruster animation would be nice.  If you don't press #2 (well this new keybind), you keep momentum allowing you to straff enemy.  

I'm not asking for total realism but some realism makes the game more immersive.  Losing functionallity (cannot straff, cannot roll, only have 1 speed), is not good.  I'd like those things back with ability to stop quickly.  That's all that was every needed.  

Edited December 11, 2019 by Educated_Beast

[Tyreaus]

Said it before: they can bring back the 6DoF and momentum style with a hold-sprint turning on a sort of "airplane" mode, without forced acceleration, and letting go of sprint righting the player back to normal and ceasing momentum. The acceleration on pressing only sprint (i.e. not sprint + forward) isn't that awfully necessary, so it could be used as a sort of mode shift without, I think, much problem. Best of both worlds based on player discretion.

[DerGreif2]

Don't pretend that the old system was a lot better. Now with railjack around of the corner it's better to have a flight mode where you know where you are going instead of sometimes needing a full minute to relocate yourself again. The loopings where fun but the other 1000 things that where also possible with the upside down flying where horrific.

[Steel_Rook]

18 hours ago, lukaself said:

Flat? I beg your pardon?  Guys, we can't possibly have been playing the same game:

You CAN fly high above the map and look down, yes - never claimed otherwise. What I'm saying is the game never requires you to. Most of the maps have a scattering of asteroids along a few "levels" with enemies showing up from around the horizon. What you're showing there is a bit of a manufactured and uncommon situation.

 

18 hours ago, lukaself said:

And do I seriously have to point out the absurdity of requesting the devs to fix the inability of some players to learn how to fly 3D by designing an implementing and artificial horizon UI... in space? An optional auto-center setting instead would hopefully satisfy those of us who have a hard time finding their bearings in a three-dimensional space, not clutter an already very busy UI, be way more cost and time efficient for the devs, would not impair controller users by requiring more buttons and less limiting for those of us who do not like arbitrary limitations in a game that wasn't designed for them in the first place.

I'm not necessarily against the ability to go inverted, to be honest. I'm merely pointing out that the way the game is currently designed, you don't really need to and can get away without having that ability. Moreover, the ability to invert requires yaw controls to be relative to facing rather than absolute to the world, which causes almost perpetual banking and makes simple motions harder to pull off. Sure, an autolevel function might work, but I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that people will complain about the game taking control from them, randomly spinning the world and making them lose their tracked target. You're going to end up having to put that on a separate button, which isn't a trivial thing.

Obviously, I don't feel it's a problem to have that flight model as an optional choice. I'm just not willing to accept the argument that it's made mandatory by game design, is all.

 

18 hours ago, Educated_Beast said:

I don't get it, space bar is doing nothing now because we also lost ability to go medium speed.  Space should have been new blink and let us keep roll.  

If by "space bar" you mean the ground Jump control, then it very much does something. It causes your Archwing to travel forward AND UP relative to your camera facing. There's no unique animation to it (and there really should be) but it's what I personally use when I'm trying to find stuff on the ground in the Pains and Orb Vallis - most commonly Thermia Fractures.

[ZoneDymo]

12 hours ago, DerGreif2 said:

Don't pretend that the old system was a lot better. Now with railjack around of the corner it's better to have a flight mode where you know where you are going instead of sometimes needing a full minute to relocate yourself again. The loopings where fun but the other 1000 things that where also possible with the upside down flying where horrific.

There is nothing pretending about it, if you read my post I literally said :

" did it make me better at flying? no.... infact it works against you a lot but who cares? It atleast made it actually feel a bit space like and that to me is more important. "

and ultimately its all personal, I like immersion more then control, especially in a game so ez as warframe, if this was some dark souls game where getting hit would be a huge problem, sure give me control, but warframe? not that important.

and again, Experimental Flight was an OPTION for those who wanted that in the options menu.
If that is what it takes to fly upside down again and not auto rotate to some (meant by design) orientation, then sure, just give me and others like me the OPTION of it again, and those who dont want it wont use it, no harm.

@Educated_Beast

while lack of control might mean they cant fly upside down via a barrel roll or something (which...why would that limit us PC gamers?) that sitll does not mean that aiming up and keep aiming up would not result in a loop.

Edited December 12, 2019 by ZoneDymo

[lukaself]

*Downloads the Empyrean update*

*Launches Archwing*

*Throws hands up and leaves the game*

This shouldn't have been a hovers vs flyers debate. There was constructive ways to make it work for everyone. #*!%!

[Wagonbomb]

Wow... Resurrecting an old thread cause last time I played 3d space flight was a toggle in the options....

After jumping on last night and seeing what they did to archwing flight I'm not sure I want to bother continuing. I was hoping they'd lean more into archwing content and maybe some true space missions but it's obvious they are focused elsewhere for "accessibility" sake. God forbid there's a feature in a game that's hard to master these days...

[Ubaaaas]

Kind of disappointed that they made that decision. I hope they change their mind..