@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You're not everyone though, and despite the randomness of target selection, Chaos remains extremely effective in making enemies fight each other, 

And everyone has clarified to you that Chaos is soft CC. 

I even agree that it is an alright ability. But there are 3 facts that remain. 

#1, most people here except you point out a fact, (Example, Chaos is Soft CC as enemies still have the potential of shooting at you, at a teammate or a defense target etc) and you are unable to acknowledge that you are wrong despite everyone refuting you. 

#2 Your view on game progression is wrong, and the game scales much more exponentially. (The stronger something is, the faster its stats grow.) 

#3 Hard CC are abilities like Stasis, Bastille, Rhino Stomp. 

Those abilities have something painfully in common. Enemies do not move, shoot or pose any real threat under stasis, Bastille, Rhino Stomp. Enemies, under chaos still have a gun and the ability to shoot you. 

If you chaos a single enemy and it shoots you? SOFT CC. If I stasis a single enemy? Bastille a single enemy? Rhino Stomp a single enemy? They are hard CC-ed for the entire situation. 
(Nobody said Soft CC was inherently bad, but your opinions are so insecure, and so wrong typically) 

That even for telling you the truth of something so simple, you again try prove everyone else wrong instead of acknowledging the multiple people correcting you that they have a point. 
 

Edited February 26, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

By contrast, what I dislike about vertical power is that, on its own, it provides no benefit to gameplay, and in fact makes it worse by imbalancing it, and forcing the rest of the game to adjust in order to maintain the same level of challenge. 

Sure, but again, that "something" is already addressed better by other things. We continue trying to obtain warframes even when they're not as strong as the ones we own, 

Okay, and this shows that one needs to go through some degree of abstraction and mental gymnastics to reconcile this system with how we're being presented elsewhere. We both seem to be in agreement as well that the game could stand to be streamlined significantly as well, and that its own progression over time hasn't been perfect. 

Warframe has so little horizontal progression that it is laughable. 

The only horizontal examples in warframes are switching to different companions in different situations, or switching to base warframes. Even warframes are a bad example of horizontal gameplay as most warframes excel in a certain gameplay mode that makes them inherently more powerful in that mode then compared to others. 

Frost, Vauban and Nyx and Saryn for example do their best in a defense mission. Frames like Loki are considered overpowered for spy missions. It's not just a different playstyle, when the mission itself is made endlessly easier. 

Nidus and Octavia for all I can see are the best frames for Endurance runs, (From Octavia's endless scaling, to Nidus's scaling damage, undying passive, and damage reduction.

Mods and the various upgrades to them are borderline exponential upgrade, that scale upwards. You really fail to see, that MR progression is based of missions, and starmap completion then based of other weapons so people try out other weapons instead of just letting them go straight for best weapons in the game. 

De knows its stronger weapons exists, that is why they are MR locked. The prime, vandal, wraith, syndicate weapons aren't horizontal upgrades, they are direct upgrades. One of the only few examples of "Horizontal" upgrades that exist, exist as mods, and since said mods can be stacked on top of each other in order to min max? Comes off as an additional mod option instead of a proper trade-off/ 

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yea, Teridax tends to do that. 

He doesn't care about being right, he cares about shoveling as much nonsense as possible till you get tired of him. 

You'd know all about that, as evidenced by your most recent triple post, only one of which has any relevance to this thread, and none of which contribute to discussion. Your desperate need to try to find every opportunity to attack my character, as with the above, underlines your own behavior on this thread.

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And everyone has clarified to you that Chaos is soft CC. 

Putting aside how you are, once again, not everyone, you can call it whatever you like: Chaos does what it does, and what it does is make enemies across a wide radius attack each other, which is particularly good at locking down entire rooms at a time. It does not matter whichever incorrect or made-up nomenclature you choose to use, Chaos is effective at a certain niche, it's just that its niche hasn't been valuable in a while (and likely shouldn't be, to be honest).

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

#1, most people here except you point out a fact, (Example, Chaos is Soft CC as enemies still have the potential of shooting at you, at a teammate or a defense target etc) and you are unable to acknowledge that you are wrong despite everyone refuting you. 

See above. You are the one who are arguing off of the ridiculously wrong opinion that Chaos is somehow ineffective at stalling CC and that Nyx never relied on it as part of her niche, and were shown to be wrong, yet continue to ignore the facts and argue from repetition.

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#2 Your view on game progression is wrong, and the game scales much more exponentially. (The stronger something is, the faster its stats grow.) 

Where did I ever deny the fact that higher base stats mean more growth through mods? Which particular aspect of game progression am I getting wrong, and why?

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#3 Hard CC are abilities like Stasis, Bastille, Rhino Stomp. 

See above. Given that Stasis was also not around at a time when CC dominated, your argument is anachronistic to boot.

7 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Warframe has so little horizontal progression that it is laughable. 

Warframe has literal dozens of warframes and hundreds of weapons. The fact that you consider this "laughable" is itself risible.

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Even warframes are a bad example of horizontal gameplay as most warframes excel in a certain gameplay mode that makes them inherently more powerful in that mode then compared to others. 

That makes them a perfect example of horizontal gameplay. You visibly do not understand what horizontal power means.

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Mods and the various upgrades to them are borderline exponential upgrade, that scale upwards. You really fail to see, that MR progression is based of missions, and starmap completion then based of other weapons so people try out other weapons instead of just letting them go straight for best weapons in the game. 

And in the end, MR isn't achieved by becoming more powerful, it's achieved by collecting more stuff. Our official means of showing our progression in-game thus comes from completionism, not vertical power increases.

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De knows its stronger weapons exists, that is why they are MR locked. The prime, vandal, wraith, syndicate weapons aren't horizontal upgrades, they are direct upgrades. One of the only few examples of "Horizontal" upgrades that exist, exist as mods, and since said mods can be stacked on top of each other in order to min max? Comes off as an additional mod option instead of a proper trade-off/ 

Sure, but as pointed out already, the MR-to-power distribution is so inconsistent, and covers only a fragment of the MR range we have, that MR cannot be honestly said to be an accurate reflection of our power level. I completely agree with you that some weapons are in fact more powerful than others, beyond just variants, and that DE intends this to be the case in some (but not all) instances, I just don't think it's a very good idea, given that it hasn't worked so far and simply means the developers are squandering their own arsenal.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Teridax68

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You'd know all about that, as evidenced by your most recent triple post,

Yawn, attacking my posts again? I thought we were over this, and arguing things that actually matter? Who's attacking who's character again? I'm pointing out that the entire world can correct you, tell you multiple ways in how you are wrong, and if you had it stuck in your head that up is down and down is up, You'd still believe it no matter how many people corrected you. 

I've even given you multiple opportunities to go "Yea, I guess you have a point," or "I can see why you would think that, let me explain it differently." 

But the fact is, you are incapable of tolerating any thought but your own, especially when your line of thinking is wrong. Dead wrong. 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

once again, not everyone, you can call it whatever you like: Chaos does what it does, and what it does is make enemies across a wide radius attack each other, which is particularly good at locking down entire rooms at a time.

 Shall we count the people that corrected you? I see you are still unable to admit or even humor what people said about chaos. 

#1 poor choice of words. "Locking Down?" When you say the words "Lock Down" I think of a prison. Criminals are "Locked Down" unable to do what they please. 

Chaos is much more akin to a Prison Break. Enemies can wildly attack whoever they please. They can attack you, your teammates, the defense target, or each other. But go on. Do everything but admit you were wrong about Chaos being Soft CC. This further admits my point that you can't handle being wrong, and you'll defend yourself being wrong till your last breath. 

Bastille, Stasis, or any ability that Imprisons enemy for a significant length of time properly fits the description of "Locking down" entire rooms. You really should only argue a point if said point, Has a point. You keep repeating this till its nauseating for you to repeat it again, while you ignore the flaws to chaos. You simply can't admit it or acknowledge it. 

Must be really terrible then, when Chaos doesn't prevent an enemy from shooting you, and you get shot and die when the enemies under chaos were closer to you, then each other, and shot you as their nearest target. 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Where did I ever deny the fact that higher base stats mean more growth through mods?

Denied it when you refused to ever acknowledge the more exponential stat growth on prime weapons and gear, and in the case of mods, you attempted to deny it when you tried to argue that said mods were too expensive or practical to use. (Which is wrong through the use of forma and umbra forma.) 

This can be seen any time you pushed the "DE doesn't try to make better weapons. Everything is a side-grade" argument. Much like Zephyr before her rework, it just doesn't fly. 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

See above. Given that Stasis was also not around at a time when CC dominated, your argument is anachronistic to boot.

Except that other examples of Hard CC ruled the game. Like Nova's molecular Prime, Vauban's bastille, Blind Mirage, Disarm Loki, Frost's snowglobe (built for range and chilling augment) 

Surprise, in a CC dominated mission like Raids, people much preferred the above listed frames over a nyx, as a nyx could not stop a lone scorpion from hooking your teammate off the button, which then proceeded to kill the entire group. Shame Chaos doesn't CC lone single enemies on the fringe area of the map. If only you had (insert literally any ability listed above) active instead. Bastille, a snowglobe, disarm, prime and or a blind would have prevented that situation. 

Also, as people clarified to you. When it came to defense missions, of the endless variety? Double Nyx absorb was the way to go. Infinite damage cared not for your CC (much like today's meta. funny how that works.) 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Warframe has literal dozens of warframes and hundreds of weapons. The fact that you consider this "laughable" is itself risible.

And how many of those weapons are a direct upgrade of an existing weapon, or a similar archetype of weapon that is vastly superior? 

In other words, how many prime, vandal, wraith, kuva, mara, syndicate, dex, or prisma weapons are there? 

Secondly, how many weapons have a vastly superior counterpart to them? Example being the Lenz, and the Kuva Bramma. Or the Soma Prime vs the Acceltra? Both cases of the later weapon being the same playstyle and relative mod layout to the previous, but delivering far greater power? 

I counted some 133+ weapons that fit into the first category. This only included direct upgrades of said weapons, (Like counting the paris prime, or the lex prime/aklex prime over the normal lex/aklex)  These 133 examples, are exponential upgrades. Not horizontal, (like the only example I can think of a Prime weapon being a sidegrade to the normal version were the Spira Prime, and I'm pretty sure everyone hated it, so the Spira Prime got buffed.) 

I'd have to look at every weapon ever made by DE to see how many fit the example of the Acceltra and the Soma Prime. And You simply aren't worth the time to do that with. You'll have to settle with 135 different examples of how you are wrong. 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That makes them a perfect example of horizontal gameplay. You visibly do not understand what horizontal power means.

Yea no. No things are equally suited to the situation at hand. Do you recall that 8 hour survival mission with Octavia? 

So few frames can match the performance or even come close to Octavia in that particular scenario where she is responsible for killing enemies level in the thousands that it goes beyond "Horizontal gameplay". 

But feel free to show many how she's just a sidegrade choice for endurance survival missions. Frames excel at certain things, and if the situation is right, they are a direct upgrade that can be infinitely better for the task at hand. Octavia is just one example. 

Chroma is another good example, as he puts most frames to shame when it comes to Eidolon hunting. Very few frames can do the damage output or take the amount of damage he can, while doing the most to said boss. 

The scope of these frames outperforming their peers is too grand to say something so wrong as "horizontal scaling". That's why its a good idea to get every frame, forma them to min max and see what their true potential is. I don't think as many people realize how powerful frames like Octavia are, in their element. (I'll give you a hint though. Their power is what made DE nerf frames like Nyx, that did just too good a job at certain things, to the point of ruining the frame.)

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And in the end, MR isn't achieved by becoming more powerful, it's achieved by collecting more stuff. Our official means of showing our progression in-game thus comes from completionism, not vertical power increases.

Aaaand no. Almost right. Mastery Rank is about experiencing everything in the game. It's also about experiencing a wide variety of weapons, warframes, as well as completing missions, unlocking junctions and railjack intrinsics. Certain people love chasing Mastery Rank, and others just get as much mastery rank as they need for the weapons they want, then play the game a different way. 

133 of said weapons that will go towards your mastery rank, are a collection of direct upgrades to pre-existing gear that you might have had previously in the game. MR isn't achieved by becoming more powerful, once you finish the star chart. (The base star chart is about getting more powerful.) 

MR then rewards you with the ability to get more powerful. MR gives you access to better prime gear, stronger rivens, and quests with different rewards. The Shedu for example, or the Broken War which for a time was the strongest sword in its class when it came out. 

You really can't argue that having access to say the Rubico Prime, the Tigris Prime, or the Prime Warframes locked behind Mastery rank isn't an indicator of power progression over the gear a mastery rank 5 tenno has available to them. 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but as pointed out already, the MR-to-power distribution is so inconsistent, and covers only a fragment of the MR range we have, that MR cannot be honestly said to be an accurate reflection of our power level.

Nobody ever said it was. What was said, is that MR gives access or unlocks the full potential of said power level. I once dragged a rank 0 volt through the LoR raids because we needed an extra body. Nobody here thinks MR is an indication of skill. MR doesn't reflect enemies killed, the level of difficulty of enemies killed, or anything else except how much content of warframe has been experienced. 

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 I completely agree with you that some weapons are in fact more powerful than others, beyond just variants, and that DE intends this to be the case in some (but not all) instances, I just don't think it's a very good idea, given that it hasn't worked so far and simply means the developers are squandering their own arsenal.

I counted 133 cases in which DE intends this to be the case. This number will be updated as Titania comes out, and further raises this number. I respect your opinion that it's not a very good idea, but I disagree with it. 

in Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 a game that I imagine you would enjoy far more, has a more balanced pool of weapons. Weapons only ever felt that they did marginally more damage, or your damage just wasn't reduced based on the level of your gear. This lead the game to feel same-y to me over the years, with enemies always being bullet-sponges that were tedious to kill in every circumstance. 

My biggest praise of warframe is that I can feel both immensely powerful, and challenged at the same time. I can hop into an endurance, and slaughter enemies till the point I am challenged, and experience the truly powerful enemy levels for as long as I want, or as long as I can. Destiny even after completing the taken raids never felt satisfying. The weapons and power given to me never felt like an improvement. Despite the vast selection of weapons available, I couldn't care less for them. This is why I like Warframe, as when a powerful and interesting weapon comes out? I have a reason to care. If I want to have the best weapon, I have to keep playing. I can't be content with my Mida Multiool and black Spindle for every situation. 

[Teridax68]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yawn, attacking my posts again? I thought we were over this, and arguing things that actually matter?

We are, actually, as I am pointing out that your ancillary posts are irrelevant on top of being pointlessly separated from each other. You received moderator intervention on this before, as I recall.

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 Who's attacking who's character again?

How is criticizing your posts an attack on your character?

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I'm pointing out that the entire world can correct you, tell you multiple ways in how you are wrong, and if you had it stuck in your head that up is down and down is up, You'd still believe it no matter how many people corrected you. 

Well no, as I clearly do change my views in the face of facts, it's just that you're not in the business of saying factual things. You keep aggrandizing yourself as "multiple people", "everyone", and now "the entire world", yet at the end of the day you're just one guy behind their computer screen trying to win an argument on the internet at all costs, regardless of truth or substance of discussion.

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I've even given you multiple opportunities to go "Yea, I guess you have a point," or "I can see why you would think that, let me explain it differently." 

As have I, as I've clearly laid out uncontroversial and basic explanations that you still refused to listen to. This underlines the projection inherent in your accusations, as it is you here who are refusing to listen to reason, much less admit when having made a mistake, as per the above.

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But the fact is, you are incapable of tolerating any thought but your own, especially when your line of thinking is wrong. Dead wrong. 

But this is simply not true, as even here I've done nothing but defend my opinions in the face of people who couldn't tolerate them, not the reverse, and in fact initiated no arguments with others. You are nakedly projecting once more, as you are one of those people who took issue with what I had to say, all because I'm not a fan of vertical power progression.

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 Shall we count the people that corrected you? I see you are still unable to admit or even humor what people said about chaos. 

Please, go ahead. I have no reason to humor you either, much as you'd like nothing more than for me to pretend that you're right.

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#1 poor choice of words. "Locking Down?" When you say the words "Lock Down" I think of a prison. Criminals are "Locked Down" unable to do what they please. 

Chaos is much more akin to a Prison Break. Enemies can wildly attack whoever they please. They can attack you, your teammates, the defense target, or each other. But go on. Do everything but admit you were wrong about Chaos being Soft CC. This further admits my point that you can't handle being wrong, and you'll defend yourself being wrong till your last breath. 

Bastille, Stasis, or any ability that Imprisons enemy for a significant length of time properly fits the description of "Locking down" entire rooms. You really should only argue a point if said point, Has a point. You keep repeating this till its nauseating for you to repeat it again, while you ignore the flaws to chaos. You simply can't admit it or acknowledge it. 

Must be really terrible then, when Chaos doesn't prevent an enemy from shooting you, and you get shot and die when the enemies under chaos were closer to you, then each other, and shot you as their nearest target. 

Finagling on semantics does not prevent the fact that Chaos turns a room against itself, and thereby prevents enemies from achieving their goals entirely. There is an element of randomness to the targeting, but that in itself is compensated for by the ability's immense range. Chaos locks down several rooms at a time, whether or not you want to apply silly prison analogies.

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Denied it when you refused to ever acknowledge the more exponential stat growth on prime weapons and gear, and in the case of mods, you attempted to deny it when you tried to argue that said mods were too expensive or practical to use. (Which is wrong through the use of forma and umbra forma.) 

This can be seen any time you pushed the "DE doesn't try to make better weapons. Everything is a side-grade" argument. Much like Zephyr before her rework, it just doesn't fly. 

Literally where did I deny that some weapons are stronger than others? Your conspicuous lack of supporting quotes shows you are once again trying to invent a false narrative here, one that continues to make no sense given that the power creep you are accusing me of denying is the power creep I am suggesting to eliminate.

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Except that other examples of Hard CC ruled the game. Like Nova's molecular Prime, Vauban's bastille, Blind Mirage, Disarm Loki, Frost's snowglobe (built for range and chilling augment) 

Surprise, in a CC dominated mission like Raids, people much preferred the above listed frames over a nyx, as a nyx could not stop a lone scorpion from hooking your teammate off the button, which then proceeded to kill the entire group. Shame Chaos doesn't CC lone single enemies on the fringe area of the map. If only you had (insert literally any ability listed above) active instead. Bastille, a snowglobe, disarm, prime and or a blind would have prevented that situation. 

Also, as people clarified to you. When it came to defense missions, of the endless variety? Double Nyx absorb was the way to go. Infinite damage cared not for your CC (much like today's meta. funny how that works.) 

And again, the fact that you consider Molecular Prime "hard CC", or that you believe Mirage was dominant for her LoS-restricted CC, or that you believe Frost's CC came from his Snow Globe, and so all in raids, shows you do not have the first idea of what you're talking about. That, and you seem to believe that double Nyx Absorb is meta in the current game, which... yikes. And of course infinite damage cares about CC if you CC enemies into not applying it to you.

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And how many of those weapons are a direct upgrade of an existing weapon, or a similar archetype of weapon that is vastly superior? 

In other words, how many prime, vandal, wraith, kuva, mara, syndicate, dex, or prisma weapons are there? 

You can count for yourself, as the more important question is: why does this matter? There are still hundreds of distinct weapons, and dozens of distinct frames.

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Secondly, how many weapons have a vastly superior counterpart to them? Example being the Lenz, and the Kuva Bramma. Or the Soma Prime vs the Acceltra? Both cases of the later weapon being the same playstyle and relative mod layout to the previous, but delivering far greater power? 

I counted some 133+ weapons that fit into the first category. This only included direct upgrades of said weapons, (Like counting the paris prime, or the lex prime/aklex prime over the normal lex/aklex)  These 133 examples, are exponential upgrades. Not horizontal, (like the only example I can think of a Prime weapon being a sidegrade to the normal version were the Spira Prime, and I'm pretty sure everyone hated it, so the Spira Prime got buffed.) 

I'd have to look at every weapon ever made by DE to see how many fit the example of the Acceltra and the Soma Prime. And You simply aren't worth the time to do that with. You'll have to settle with 135 different examples of how you are wrong. 

Your repeated insistence that the Kuva Bramma outperforms the Lenz is... cute. But really, you are blatantly attempting to downplay the fact that there is, in fact, a huge number of distinct weapons, whether you like it or not. Warframe is a game with a lot of content, and I don't see why you'd attempt to argue otherwise.

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Yea no. No things are equally suited to the situation at hand. Do you recall that 8 hour survival mission with Octavia? 

So few frames can match the performance or even come close to Octavia in that particular scenario where she is responsible for killing enemies level in the thousands that it goes beyond "Horizontal gameplay". 

But feel free to show many how she's just a sidegrade choice for endurance survival missions. Frames excel at certain things, and if the situation is right, they are a direct upgrade that can be infinitely better for the task at hand. Octavia is just one example. 

Chroma is another good example, as he puts most frames to shame when it comes to Eidolon hunting. Very few frames can do the damage output or take the amount of damage he can, while doing the most to said boss. 

The scope of these frames outperforming their peers is too grand to say something so wrong as "horizontal scaling". That's why its a good idea to get every frame, forma them to min max and see what their true potential is. I don't think as many people realize how powerful frames like Octavia are, in their element. (I'll give you a hint though. Their power is what made DE nerf frames like Nyx, that did just too good a job at certain things, to the point of ruining the frame.)

You are merely repeating yourself, while failing to admit that you are arguing from pure ignorance. Horizontal power does not mean that all things are equally good in all situations; it in fact implies the opposite. Different options will be better for different situations, a power-neutral system merely asks that these options are equally desirable in general. The fact that you're trying to use bad balance as an attempt to suggest DE is deliberately trying to make its own frames unviable is the cherry on top of this idiot cake.

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Aaaand no. Almost right. Mastery Rank is about experiencing everything in the game. It's also about experiencing a wide variety of weapons, warframes, as well as completing missions, unlocking junctions and railjack intrinsics. Certain people love chasing Mastery Rank, and others just get as much mastery rank as they need for the weapons they want, then play the game a different way. 

133 of said weapons that will go towards your mastery rank, are a collection of direct upgrades to pre-existing gear that you might have had previously in the game. MR isn't achieved by becoming more powerful, once you finish the star chart. (The base star chart is about getting more powerful.) 

MR then rewards you with the ability to get more powerful. MR gives you access to better prime gear, stronger rivens, and quests with different rewards. The Shedu for example, or the Broken War which for a time was the strongest sword in its class when it came out. 

You really can't argue that having access to say the Rubico Prime, the Tigris Prime, or the Prime Warframes locked behind Mastery rank isn't an indicator of power progression over the gear a mastery rank 5 tenno has available to them. 

Okay, so by your own admission, MR is an indicator of completionism, the MR locks to the most powerful weapons around are not even close to the highest MR we can achieve, and and the weapons you listed have competitors with inferior power and higher MR locks. Which is exactly all of which I have said. Thank you for conceding the point!

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Nobody ever said it was. What was said, is that MR gives access or unlocks the full potential of said power level. I once dragged a rank 0 volt through the LoR raids because we needed an extra body. Nobody here thinks MR is an indication of skill. MR doesn't reflect enemies killed, the level of difficulty of enemies killed, or anything else except how much content of warframe has been experienced. 

You actually did repeatedly insist that MR was an accurate reflection of players' power level, and are in fact relying upon it to support both your above argument and your argument here, so there is clearly an inconsistency to what you are saying.

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I counted 133 cases in which DE intends this to be the case. This number will be updated as Titania comes out, and further raises this number.

By all means, please list them.

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I respect your opinion that it's not a very good idea, but I disagree with it. 

If you'd ever respected my opinion, you wouldn't have launched into this vendetta or attempted any of the above. Don't pretend like your argumentation here stems from anything other than pure spite.

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in Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 a game that I imagine you would enjoy far more, has a more balanced pool of weapons. Weapons only ever felt that they did marginally more damage, or your damage just wasn't reduced based on the level of your gear. This lead the game to feel same-y to me over the years, with enemies always being bullet-sponges that were tedious to kill in every circumstance. 

Isn't that just a sign that the design of those items is samey? How exactly are differences in overall power going to differentiate weapons, especially if they reduce the pool of viable options?

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My biggest praise of warframe is that I can feel both immensely powerful, and challenged at the same time. I can hop into an endurance, and slaughter enemies till the point I am challenged, and experience the truly powerful enemy levels for as long as I want, or as long as I can. Destiny even after completing the taken raids never felt satisfying. The weapons and power given to me never felt like an improvement. Despite the vast selection of weapons available, I couldn't care less for them. This is why I like Warframe, as when a powerful and interesting weapon comes out? I have a reason to care. If I want to have the best weapon, I have to keep playing. I can't be content with my Mida Multiool and black Spindle for every situation. 

Putting aside how finding Warframe's content difficult in spite of how notoriously trivial it becomes past a threshold of power is... telling, I fail to see why vertical power helps with this at all, or why removing it would turn the game into Destiny. Please, do elaborate.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Teridax68

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

We are, actually, as I am pointing out that your ancillary posts are irrelevant on top of being pointlessly separated from each other. You received moderator intervention on this before, as I recall.

And you would be wrong and or a liar. Probably both. 

I've had duplicate posts before, and had said duplicates cleaned up, but no moderator has ever asked me to not post three smaller posts to different people before. Nice try to attack me though. You fail.

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

How is criticizing your posts an attack on your character?

See above quote for details. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Well no, as I clearly do change my views in the face of facts, it's just that you're not in the business of saying factual things.

And this would be wrong. Show me a non factual thing I have said with evidence. Not your opinion, EVIDENCE. Give me an example, that isn't your terrible opinion ignoring contradictory evidence. 

See your entire argument is based on your self censoring opinion, that the game has evidence to the contrary. I bring up said contradictions, and as pointed out by a few examples, say something like the Kuva Bramma; You simply shift the argument so that your opinion can have its way while ignoring the examples that contradict your opinion. 

Example A: You ignored the facts that Chaos is soft CC. You ignore that Mastery Rank unlocks solid progression in the form of several dozen superior weapons. This is your opinion ignoring the fact of the matter. Convenient you also ignore the benefits given to you, when you complete a quest locked behind mastery rank, and are rewarded with tenno schools, or umbra excalibur and the provided benefits. Weird how something tied to Mastery Rank such as a quest would give you superior mods and a superior frame. 

Fact #1 Most of the best weapons in the game are Mastery Rank locked. 

Fact #2 prime warframes, mods, and superior weapons as well as systems like intrinsics or tenno schools is an example of game progression to counter your narrative. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You keep aggrandizing yourself as "multiple people", "everyone", and now "the entire world", 

Yea no. I saw multiple people tell you Chaos was soft CC. Even CopperBezel got tired of your nonsense. This is multiple people against you, correcting you. 

For example. 
CopperBezel
 

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What the S#&$ man. I'm done with you. 

KaijuKraid
 

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Not true. Chaos is pretty soft CC. It could still stray and hit the Defence Pod. Remember, people at the time were also doing Endurance Void Key Runs, wanting to stay in Defence Missions as long as possible. Nyx would simply become very unsafe. She was among the most popular defence and used frames at the time, then that one change simply happened and then she was basically no longer seen. Chaos doesn't stop enemies from shooting you or defence objectives: It just basically makes enemies into legitimate targets for the enemy. 

It DEFINITELY killed Nyx back then. 

Notice how the quotes addressed to you, talk about how wrong you are in multiple ways that also state facts like Chaos is soft CC. Notice how you can't accept something, no matter how many people correct you. 

As hard as you try, nothing changes how wrong you are.

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As have I, as I've clearly laid out uncontroversial and basic explanations that you still refused to listen to.

Nope. There are literally dozens of examples that prove your "uncontroversial and basic explanations" wrong. You simply ignore them because they don't agree with your opinion. You see things one way, and refuse to admit that there are other ways to look at the game, and fail to see that the proof is stacked against you. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But this is simply not true, as even here I've done nothing but defend my opinions

Your opinions are the only thing you defend. Not Facts. Facts of the matter that on certain points have patch notes to contradict you, 133+ weapons that go against your narrative, and mechanics in game that you have to selectively ignore to support the opinion you have. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Finagling on semantics does not prevent the fact that Chaos turns a room against itself, and thereby prevents enemies from achieving their goals

Ah, Semantics is it? Right. Right. Please refer to previous multiple people correcting you about Chaos Soft CC. Even better? Go into simulcrum. Spawn the strongest single enemy you can, and show me how Chaos prevents that single enemy from shooting for more then 2 seconds. Go on. I'll wait for the video. 

I would love to see how chaos alone prevents an enemy from stopping you. No guns. Nothing but Nyx's CC. Vauban, Limbo, and every CC frame could do it. Show some evidence to back your opinion. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There is an element of randomness to the targeting, but that in itself is compensated for by the ability's immense range

Element of randomness = Soft CC. There is no randomness in Stasis. No randomness in Molecular Prime. No randomness in Bastille. You lock down the enemy or you don't. You fail at logic. 

I like how you defend the easiest and most disprovable arguments. It makes my job so easy.

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Literally where did I deny that some weapons are stronger than others?

Sorry, but no matter how many times you ask this question, I will always bring up your quote of you saying "DE DOESN'T MAKE WEAPONS TO BE BETTER THEN THEIR OLD WEAPONS" 

Prime weapons, Prisma Weapons, exist dude. You said DE doesn't try to make better versions of weapons. Own up to it, or admit you were wrong. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And again, the fact that you consider Molecular Prime "hard CC",

Molecular Prime is hard CC as enemies have their movement impaired by 75%. Their attack speed and thus damage output are also reduced by 75% as a result. This means that enemies lose 75% of their threat. 

The only real ability you could argue is Soft CC would be Loki's disarm. Enemies can still technically attack you, but only with a melee weapon. Nova's prime with how much it can slow a defense mission up or down, is a definitive example of Hard CC. The only difference between it and Limbo's stasis? Limbo slows enemies down by 100%, instead of 75%. 

Shifting the argument from Nyx to Nova in defense of your wrong opinion. Nice try. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And again, the fact that you consider Molecular Prime "hard CC", or that you believe Mirage was dominant for her LoS-restricted CC, or that you believe Frost's CC came from his Snow Globe, and so all in raids, 

#1 Mirage's blind is hard CC. It can be restricted by Los, but if it hits, its Hard CC. The enemy cannot attack or function blinded in any capacity. If I remember correctly, the LOS restriction came after the raids were out. 
Secondly, Frost's Snowglobe does have CC. I never said that ALL of his CC comes from Snowglove, but a frost can cover enemy spawn points with globes so that he can cover a larger area to CC. 

Are you familiar with his Augment? It's entirely based around crowd control. Or are you not familiar that enemies inside snow globe are slowed, while enemies outside it are tossed away.

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your repeated insistence that the Kuva Bramma outperforms the Lenz is... cute.

And I would be correct. The Bramma has much more innate damage then the Lenz. 

Observe. 
 

Maybe it is because the Bramma has more base damage hmm? The Lenz has the second highest damage of all bows. 

You know what bow is the highest base damage? The Bramma has higher crit damage, higher base damage, higher status chance, and 3 instances of damage. The hit, the explosion and the cluster bomb. The Lenz has a slightly higher critical chance, then falls behind the Kuva in every regard. 

Hey look! Evidence that proves you wrong. Chances you will ignore it? PROBABLE.

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

you are blatantly attempting to downplay the fact that there is, in fact, a huge number of distinct weapons, whether you like it or not. Warframe is a game with a lot of content, and I don't see why you'd attempt to argue otherwise.

Remember how many weapons I counted that were direct upgrades of previous weapons? Seems like you are ignoring those too. I mentioned I only counted superior variants of weapons. Seeing as there were more then a hundred? I'm the person who isn't ignoring weapons. You are.

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You are merely repeating yourself, while failing to admit that you are arguing from pure ignorance. Horizontal power does not mean that all things are equally good in all situations;

Yea wrong. Horizontal implies that things never get higher. It's horizontal. It might be a more appropriate frame or easier to do something with a more appropriate frame.

Warframes are vertical when they perform like Octavia does when it comes to scaling, or Vertical when it comes to Chroma against eidolons. This is evidence that very few frames can scale their damage to level 2000s enemies. 

12 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so by your own admission, MR is an indicator of completionism, the MR locks to the most powerful weapons around are not even close to the highest MR we can achieve, 

And wrong again. Kuva Bramma requires MR 15. It's the strongest bow in the game. It's also tied to being the highest weapon ranked to Mastery. Maybe you should look at some facts. 
[MR7]: Unlocks The Silver Grove quest.

• [MR8]:
  • Unlocks all faction Syndicate Melee weapons
  • Unlocks access to all Relays.
  • Minimium rank required to use and trade Riven Mods.
• [MR10]:
  • Unlocks ability to auto-slot Ayatan Stars into Ayatan Sculptures.
  • Unlocks ability to purchase more Mod Config and Appearance Config slots (max 3 more slots per item).
• [MR12]: Unlocks all faction Syndicate Primary weapons.
• [MR14]: Unlocks all Market, Syndicate and clan Research weapons.
• [MR15]: Unlocks all game content to date, with the exception of some Riven Mods.
• [MR16]: Unlocks the final rank requirement for Riven Mods.
  
  Mr 12 unlocks syndicate primary weapons which are all stronger versions then the original version. MR 13 unlocks various Prime weapons. 15 unlocks most Kuva weapons that are the strongest in their category, and MR 16 unlocks every riven. 
  
  Here you try Shifting the argument to MR, despite highest MR being completely irrelevant. Higher mr = access to strongest gear.

Edited February 27, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Isn't that just a sign that the design of those items is samey? How exactly are differences in overall power going to differentiate weapons, especially if they reduce the pool of viable options?

Putting aside how finding Warframe's content difficult in spite of how notoriously trivial it becomes past a threshold of power is... telling, I fail to see why vertical power helps with this at all, or why removing it would turn the game into Destiny. Please, do elaborate.

To your first point? It's called Horizontal progression, when every weapon has the same amount of power and just different styles. An assault rifle, a shotgun, pulse laser or a marksman rifle all feel trivial and have no real effect on enemy TTK because they aren't designed to be better weapons then each other. You simply get your damage reduced less by higher item level. Something you should go experience to see why its a terrible idea. 

To your second point. Weren't you the guy who was advocating them putting down scaling to make the game easier? It baffles me how you can advocate two contradictions at once. 

If you read my point, you'd understand I was talking about an endurance run, where enemies start at level 30, and scale till it becomes a challenge. Much like Mystic Dungeons endlessly scale- 

Two point post cause pretty sure I hit the character count. Not that you have anything to really contest.

[BloodyEy3]

@(PS4)UltraKardas @Teridax68

since ur quarrel has already long killed this thread. How about you just block each other or continoue any future argumentation in ur pm ? you fundamentally disagree and the way it seems you already "know" that from different posts. So this is indeed more out of personal spite for the other person then anything else. Its clearly shown as ultrakardas blantly ignored my advice, which seems his main value is to degrade/ humiliate you. (and it seems the same way for you regarding him).

just to clerify: neither confusion, nor slow are hard cc.

hard cc are stops enemy action entirely ! "frozen", gara glass status, limbo stasis, rihino stomp (the hard cc is the knockback --> the slow justs prolongs hard cc), equinox sleep. --> arguably chaos is more hard cc then molekular prime (its acommpanied by a short "confusion" state, similiar to banshee silence)

so slow can prolong hard cc,but itself is not hard cc.

btw saying that slow is hard cc cause limbo stasis is 100% slow = big brain moment. You dont say 50% dmg reduction is invuerbility, cause 100% dmg reduction is invunerbility (thats basically the comparison you made).

 

[Teridax68]

 

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See above quote for details. 

No no, the above quote doesn't explain this part. So tell me: how is criticizing your posts, or a behavior of yours, an attack on your character? This is important, because it seems you take any disagreement or criticism of what you do rather personally, and react very badly to both in consequence. Your accusation here suggests you legitimately are not making the difference, which would explain your actions.

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And this would be wrong. Show me a non factual thing I have said with evidence. Not your opinion, EVIDENCE. Give me an example, that isn't your terrible opinion ignoring contradictory evidence. 

The more appropriate question would be to ask you where you have actually used evidence to support any of your points, as you have so far not done so. However, besides that, evidence of you being wrong is on this very page, as you deny the existence of weapons more powerful than those at higher MR requirements, offered two contradictory opinions on the Tigris Prime, and tried to tell me that double Nyx Absorb is apparently in meta right now. You've also just been corrected by another person in your attempt to call Nova's Molecular Prime "hard CC".

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See your entire argument is based on your self censoring opinion, that the game has evidence to the contrary. I bring up said contradictions, and as pointed out by a few examples, say something like the Kuva Bramma; You simply shift the argument so that your opinion can have its way while ignoring the examples that contradict your opinion.

Example A: You ignored the facts that Chaos is soft CC. You ignore that Mastery Rank unlocks solid progression in the form of several dozen superior weapons. This is your opinion ignoring the fact of the matter. Convenient you also ignore the benefits given to you, when you complete a quest locked behind mastery rank, and are rewarded with tenno schools, or umbra excalibur and the provided benefits. Weird how something tied to Mastery Rank such as a quest would give you superior mods and a superior frame. 

Given that you have just been corrected on the matter, and on top of this have been repeatedly shown to be wrong on the subject, I would perhaps not choose that example. Similarly, I pointed out that while certain powerful weapons are locked behind MR, there is such a disparity between MR requirements and power levels that MR gates cannot be said to be an accurate form of linear power progression, a fact you continue to deny in spite of contrary evidence. You are visibly grasping at increasingly specious straws in an attempt to tell me MR is an accurate reflection of a player's power, which is visibly not the case given the vast spread of MR that does not map onto vertical progression, and the above disordered arrangement of weapons across it. All in all, your examples here evidence your own inability to face the facts, not mine.

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Fact #1 Most of the best weapons in the game are Mastery Rank locked. 

Most weapons in general are MR locked, so the statement is rather vapid.

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Fact #2 prime warframes, mods, and superior weapons as well as systems like intrinsics or tenno schools is an example of game progression to counter your narrative. 

... which narrative?

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Yea no. I saw multiple people tell you Chaos was soft CC. Even CopperBezel got tired of your nonsense. This is multiple people against you, correcting you. 

For example. 
CopperBezel
 

KaijuKraid
 

Notice how the quotes addressed to you, talk about how wrong you are in multiple ways that also state facts like Chaos is soft CC. Notice how you can't accept something, no matter how many people correct you. 

As hard as you try, nothing changes how wrong you are.

Notice how the first post did not in fact address Nyx, and how you have just been corrected on the nature of soft CC. I would thus invite you to revise your statement, given how you've so deliciously managed to score yet another own goal.

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Nope. There are literally dozens of examples that prove your "uncontroversial and basic explanations" wrong. You simply ignore them because they don't agree with your opinion. You see things one way, and refuse to admit that there are other ways to look at the game, and fail to see that the proof is stacked against you. 

Examples such as... ? The intensity of your bloviation has the rather sad tendency to scale inversely with your ability to provide supporting evidence.

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Your opinions are the only thing you defend. Not Facts. Facts of the matter that on certain points have patch notes to contradict you, 133+ weapons that go against your narrative, and mechanics in game that you have to selectively ignore to support the opinion you have. 

Weapons you have failed to list, and facts that do in fact support my opinions, which you deny. In the end, it's almost as if we're arguing off of two completely different games, with yours apparently being one where every weapon and frame released is stronger than everyone before it, and so by design, and where Defense missions are full of double Absorb Nyx comps.

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Ah, Semantics is it? Right. Right. Please refer to previous multiple people correcting you about Chaos Soft CC. Even better? Go into simulcrum. Spawn the strongest single enemy you can, and show me how Chaos prevents that single enemy from shooting for more then 2 seconds. Go on. I'll wait for the video. 

I would love to see how chaos alone prevents an enemy from stopping you. No guns. Nothing but Nyx's CC. Vauban, Limbo, and every CC frame could do it. Show some evidence to back your opinion. 

If we're doing references, please refer to how you were just corrected on the matter. You are visibly out of your depth on this. Also, Chaos stops an enemy from attacking you... by making them attack someone else. That is, in fact, the entire purpose of the ability. Perhaps give Nyx a try sometime, you'll see what I mean.

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Element of randomness = Soft CC. There is no randomness in Stasis. No randomness in Molecular Prime. No randomness in Bastille. You lock down the enemy or you don't. You fail at logic. 

I like how you defend the easiest and most disprovable arguments. It makes my job so easy.

Sorry, but no matter how many times you ask this question, I will always bring up your quote of you saying "DE DOESN'T MAKE WEAPONS TO BE BETTER THEN THEIR OLD WEAPONS" 

Prime weapons, Prisma Weapons, exist dude. You said DE doesn't try to make better versions of weapons. Own up to it, or admit you were wrong. 

That is literally not what soft CC means, as someone else just pointed out. Also, you are yet again arguing from repetition, as I pointed out that the existence of new weapons that are clearly sidegrades and not upgrades contradicts your narrative that DE constantly tries to power creep the game. It is, as you said, easy to do, particularly as you clearly know you've lost the point, which is why you are incapable of saying anything new on the matter and have fallen back to some kind of comfort zone.

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Molecular Prime is hard CC as enemies have their movement impaired by 75%. Their attack speed and thus damage output are also reduced by 75% as a result. This means that enemies lose 75% of their threat. 

The only real ability you could argue is Soft CC would be Loki's disarm. Enemies can still technically attack you, but only with a melee weapon. Nova's prime with how much it can slow a defense mission up or down, is a definitive example of Hard CC. The only difference between it and Limbo's stasis? Limbo slows enemies down by 100%, instead of 75%. 

Shifting the argument from Nyx to Nova in defense of your wrong opinion. Nice try. 

Also, pointing out your incapacity to understand how Nova works in addition to yours on how Nyx works is not "shifting the argument", it's answering your lies comprehensively. If you don't like being corrected on multiple fronts, perhaps spend less time saying wrong things.

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#1 Mirage's blind is hard CC. It can be restricted by Los, but if it hits, its Hard CC. The enemy cannot attack or function blinded in any capacity. If I remember correctly, the LOS restriction came after the raids were out. 
Secondly, Frost's Snowglobe does have CC. I never said that ALL of his CC comes from Snowglove, but a frost can cover enemy spawn points with globes so that he can cover a larger area to CC. 

Are you familiar with his Augment? It's entirely based around crowd control. Or are you not familiar that enemies inside snow globe are slowed, while enemies outside it are tossed away.

Yeah, you've lost this, and you know it. We both know neither ability ever dominated the CC meta, with Snowglobe in particular having such a limited range that it couldn't hope to compete with, say, Avalanche, and I'm surprised you didn't pick the latter, much more apt example (likely because you don't actually understand how Frost works either). Snow Globe's only reliable CC is a slow, which is by definition not hard CC, and its actual hard CC comes from its RNG augment, which by your books would be "soft CC". But please, do tell me how I'm wrong in your cloud cuckoo land version of Warframe, where Snow Globe and Prism were at the height of the CC meta.

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And I would be correct. The Bramma has much more innate damage then the Lenz. 

Observe. 
 

Maybe it is because the Bramma has more base damage hmm? The Lenz has the second highest damage of all bows. 

You know what bow is the highest base damage? The Bramma has higher crit damage, higher base damage, higher status chance, and 3 instances of damage. The hit, the explosion and the cluster bomb. The Lenz has a slightly higher critical chance, then falls behind the Kuva in every regard. 

Hey look! Evidence that proves you wrong. Chances you will ignore it? PROBABLE.

I'm sorry, Hunter Munitions? Of course I'm going to ignore this, because the builds are horrendous, and visibly only geared for Simulacrum demos. This is without even mentioning the Bramma's significantly higher potential for self-damage, or the Lenz's guaranteed status procs and significantly higher crit chance. Your cherry-picking of evidence is itself invalidated by the rate at which people pick the Lenz over the Bramma in-game, too.

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Remember how many weapons I counted that were direct upgrades of previous weapons? Seems like you are ignoring those too. I mentioned I only counted superior variants of weapons. Seeing as there were more then a hundred? I'm the person who isn't ignoring weapons. You are.

I'm not, though, I'm simply pointing out that, even with all the variants, there are still hundreds of separate weapons, and thus that this is a game full of potential horizontal power. It is you who are ignoring evidence here, while utterly failing to understand how the onus of this point works.

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Yea wrong. Horizontal implies that things never get higher. It's horizontal. It might be a more appropriate frame or easier to do something with a more appropriate frame.

Warframes are vertical when they perform like Octavia does when it comes to scaling, or Vertical when it comes to Chroma against eidolons. This is evidence that very few frames can scale their damage to level 2000s enemies. 

Nice attempt to twist the definition of horizontal power, but no. This is, once again, a term you visibly do not understand, or do not wish to understand because its actual meaning runs counter to your agenda on this thread. Horizontal power simply means that the different options for power you have are equally desirable and powerful overall, even though they may be situationally better for certain situations (that is, in fact, the point). Warframe is a game replete with horizontal power, and in your failed, nonsensical attempts to accuse me of denying the existence of vertical power in Warframe, it's looking an awful lot like you're trying to deny the existence of horizontal power.

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And wrong again. Kuva Bramma requires MR 15. It's the strongest bow in the game. It's also tied to being the highest weapon ranked to Mastery. Maybe you should look at some facts. 
[MR7]: Unlocks The Silver Grove quest.

• [MR8]:
  • Unlocks all faction Syndicate Melee weapons
  • Unlocks access to all Relays.
  • Minimium rank required to use and trade Riven Mods.
• [MR10]:
  • Unlocks ability to auto-slot Ayatan Stars into Ayatan Sculptures.
  • Unlocks ability to purchase more Mod Config and Appearance Config slots (max 3 more slots per item).
• [MR12]: Unlocks all faction Syndicate Primary weapons.
• [MR14]: Unlocks all Market, Syndicate and clan Research weapons.
• [MR15]: Unlocks all game content to date, with the exception of some Riven Mods.
• [MR16]: Unlocks the final rank requirement for Riven Mods.
  
  Mr 12 unlocks syndicate primary weapons which are all stronger versions then the original version. MR 13 unlocks various Prime weapons. 15 unlocks most Kuva weapons that are the strongest in their category, and MR 16 unlocks every riven. 
  
  Here you try Shifting the argument to MR, despite highest MR being completely irrelevant. Higher mr = access to strongest gear.

It is also still not the strongest weapon in the game, as noted by the Tigris Prime, and as noted by your own implicit admission of it being the best bow, rather than the best weapon in the game. As you yourself are also just pointing out, our weapons become MR-unlocked long before we cap out on MR, to say nothing of the weapons that can be obtained before others while being significantly stronger than them. Every time you repeat yourself, you manage to sink your narrative even more.

On 2020-02-27 at 2:34 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

To your first point? It's called Horizontal progression, when every weapon has the same amount of power and just different styles. An assault rifle, a shotgun, pulse laser or a marksman rifle all feel trivial and have no real effect on enemy TTK because they aren't designed to be better weapons then each other. You simply get your damage reduced less by higher item level. Something you should go experience to see why its a terrible idea. 

I don't need to go play Destiny, because I've played games with horizontal progression that did beautifully precisely because no option was stronger than the others, TF2 being a good example of this. It just sounds like you're whining more about Destiny than horizontal progression here, as the flaw you're pointing out here seems to be that the weapons there don't play distinctly enough from each other.

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To your second point. Weren't you the guy who was advocating them putting down scaling to make the game easier? It baffles me how you can advocate two contradictions at once. 

This is the... third time we went over this, I think? I was in fact the guy advocating to get rid of scaling, but only because it precisely doesn't succeed at making the game more difficult, only more tedious, as already explained on several occasions you deliberately ignored. Meanwhile, you claimed then to have no problem experiencing content, only to do a 180 now and claim that you consider Warframe challenging. It is you, not me, who are caught in a contradiction.

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If you read my point, you'd understand I was talking about an endurance run, where enemies start at level 30, and scale till it becomes a challenge. Much like Mystic Dungeons endlessly scale- 

I did read your point, and still fail to see the relevance of your casuistry, or its relation to prior examples. Please, do elaborate, if you can.

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Two point post cause pretty sure I hit the character count. Not that you have anything to really contest.

Never in my entire time posting on these forums have I heard of a character limit, and as you well know, I've written some pretty long posts myself. This dubious excuse raises an eyebrow.

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

17 hours ago, BloodyEy3 said:

Its clearly shown as ultrakardas blantly ignored my advice, which seems his main value is to degrade/ humiliate you. (and it seems the same way for you regarding him).

Sorry buddy, but no. I'm perfectly capable of being civil to people, in the sense that if they can respect my opinion, I also show them respect of their opinion. It's a two way street. 

CopperBezel wanted ranged abilities to have falloff. I disagreed, then just voiced my concerns about what harm I think it could do, then mentioned I would allow it if my concerns were checked. (This is an example, of how well I can tolerate a differing opinion.) 

I do not respect Teridax's opinion as he pretends his opinions are fact, (even when other people correct him of said facts that say otherwise, (in multiple examples)  He doesn't treat his opinions, as opinions and fails to respect others opinions. 

For example, Despite you also saying Chaos is soft CC, Teridax will claim to his dying breath that is "LARGELY DISRUPTIVE HARD CC." This argument between him and I will end when one of the following situations are met. 

#1 Direct Moderator intervention. 

#2 acknowledgement that his views on the game's core progression were incorrect on the basis that so many systems exist to empower the player in numerous ways. 

#3 the recognition that most of his views ARE opinions. I can state fact after fact after fact, (like counting how many weapons there are that are direct upgrades over previous iterations of said weapon) and he will ignore that fact. If he could simply acknowledge that the majority of his claims are the truthful opinions that they are, he and I could go our different ways. 

But as #2 and #3 are unlikely, #1 will most likely be the case. 

You can see this, as he still tries to claim Chaos is hard CC, despite what you have told him. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You literally just admitted that your posts received moderator intervention on this matter.

Yea no. This is you being dishonest. I typed a post out myself and pressed enter. The post was duplicated. Meaning the exact same post was displayed several times. 

You know who requested that post be cleaned up and deleted? Me. I requested my own duplicate posts deleted because I don't want to spam the entire message board with a repeat post. 

No moderator has ever talked to me, or disciplined me on numerous posts in a row. Congratulations, on lying, and failing to defame me. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

No no, the above quote doesn't explain this part.

Actually it does. As you have both tried to call me a liar, and attack me on the notion that a moderator has to get involved and take action on me via submitting more then one post. Despite the fact that a moderator deleted a large bulk of your posts in this thread far earlier. A sincere lack of awareness on your part. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The more appropriate question would be to ask you where you have actually used evidence

Actually, the more appropriate question is when you have used evidence to support your "facts." 

I have brought up numerous examples of evidence. All examples of evidence you try to derail, twist into a point against me or ignore. Early examples of evidence include Umbra Excalibur who functions as an Excalibur Prime for anyone who wanted a better excalibur. I also brought up Umbra, Corrupted and Sacrificial mods as evidence that even mod collection goes towards power progression. 

I have brought up numerous examples of weapons to prove my point that DE makes better weapons over time. Kuva Nukor and Kuva Bramma for example. You have failed to bring up any evidence to the contrary at all. Instead you pretend that those examples don't exist and deflect to a different argument or pretend said weapons aren't as good as they are. 

I'm already most certain that  later on in your response you will completely try to say "OH THE LENZ IS STILL TOTALLY BETTER THEN THE BRAMMA. Even when I have pointed out evidence of a comparison video, have stated facts that the Bramma has more Raw Damage, has more status chance, and has higher crit damage. (This means that if neither weapon crits, the Bramma does better damage. If both weapons crit, the Bramma does higher damage, and the Bramma has the bonus effect that it can more reliably get status procs off. 

Bramma vs the Lenz. Higher Raw Damage. Higher Crit Damage. Higher Status chance. You are arguing against facts. Who is the liar now? 

What's your evidence bro? Show me evidence, instead of ignoring the countless examples I have brought up. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

However, besides that, evidence of you being wrong is on this very page, as you deny the existence of weapons more powerful than those at higher MR requirements, 

Yea wrong. Somewhere along the line, you got this idea in your head that I said every weapon is better then the last. This is a strawman argument, as I never claimed that any weapon locked behind higher MR was superior. 

I did mention that there are several examples of weapons that are higher mr and that are superior. Like the Soma vs the Acceltra, the Lenz vs the Bramma. The acceltra and Bramma are weapons with higher Mr requirement that do more damage vs the soma and the lenz. 

What I did say, is weapons that have a MR requirement are typically more powerful the higher the mastery rank required to access them. This is true for the most part. A weapon with NO mastery rank requirement is often weaker then a mastery rank locked weapon. 

Example being Mk-1 Paris with no mastery rank lock, vs a paris prime. A tigris vs a tigris prime. But please, show me an example. Mention a weapon to me that fits your described example. 

I'm going to start enforcing you use evidence to your claims and show an example instead of blatantly ignoring the evidence and examples I show to you.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

tried to tell me that double Nyx Absorb is apparently in meta right now.

Failure on reading comprehension. Wrong. If you read my previous comments about Nyx, you would have read that double absorb was nerfed into the ground, and that excessive nerf ruined her. Nyx cannot effectively absorb another absorb as it would kill all her energy and the fact that DE went out of their way to prevent two nyx's from chain absorbing. 

Please try to read better. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You've also just been corrected by another person in your attempt to call Nova's Molecular Prime "hard CC".

Coming from the person who at this point has been told by three to four different people that Chaos is soft CC?  Congrats on showing yourself to be the largest hypocrite. 

Nice try to shift the goal posts from your failed attempts on Nyx. We will talk about Nova and discuss our opinion on her, when you can admit the fact that you were wrong about Nyx's Chaos being Hard CC. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I pointed out that while certain powerful weapons are locked behind MR, there is such a disparity between MR requirements and power levels that MR gates cannot be said to be an accurate form of linear power progression

And you would be wrong as I posted the MR requirements. The difference between a MR 6 Soma and a mr 8 acceltra are pretty staggering. However I never stated that the difference between MR locked weapons would be constant. I did state, that there usually was a power difference and that most weapons with a higher MR were more often stronger. Like how the Sancti Tigris, has a higher MR requirement over the Tigris. 

What I said was that MR gives access to stronger and stronger gear. Seeing as you have no way of refuting that fact? Good Rivens make any gun stronger. A bad riven can be locked behind a high Mr requirment, but a good roll on said riven can turn it into a massively powerful riven, which MR now gives you access to. 

Currently, MR 13 and 15 are the MR gates to most of the games best weapons. Tigris Prime and the Kuva weapons. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If we're doing references, please refer to how you were just corrected on the matter. You are visibly out of your depth on this. Also, Chaos stops an enemy from attacking you

HEYYYY You TRIED TO DEFEND CHAOS AGAIN. Once again, Chaos does not stop enemies from attacking. 

Enemies can still attack, and they can still attack you. You have been corrected numerous times now, and you will defend being wrong till your last breath. Show me evidence that Chaos is "Hard CC". Go into the Simulcrum, spawn one enemy and use Chaos once. Show me how long that single chaos stops that one enemy from shooting you. 

Wrong and proven to be wrong again. I like how you don't even pretend that several people have corrected you on this. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That is literally not what soft CC means, as someone else just pointed out. 

Except you either lack the self awareness to understand that what he said flat out makes Chaos soft CC as well. 

Quote

hard cc are stops enemy action entirely

Chaos does not stop enemy action. This is what he said. Hard CC stops enemy action. Chaos does not stop enemy action. Chaos redirects enemy action at another enemy. Thus Chaos is not hard CC. 

I recognize his opinion, but I disagree with it, as Molecular prime slows enemy action to 1/4th of its normal speed. Chaos does not slow, stop or halt enemy action other then the 2 second stun at the beginning. Prime slows enemy action, while Chaos attempts to redirect it. 

Nice try to move the goalposts though. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

as I pointed out that the existence of new weapons that are clearly sidegrades and not upgrades

and which weapons exactly? Cause I counted 133 weapons that are direct upgrades. Weapons like the Rubico Prime. Snipertron Vandal. Prisma Veritux. Imperator Vandal. Synoid gammacor and synoid simmulor. 

Kuva Nukor, Aklex Prime. Please explain how any of these examples are sidegrages. Please bring an example of sidegrade period. Be specific. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Yeah, you've lost this,

I think not. You have brought up exactly 0 credible examples to defeat my arguments. You also resort to attacking my post length, and failed attempts to discredit me through moderator interaction. 

Meanwhile I have more examples to prove why you are wrong then you can even be bothered to handle. You lost this argument the moment you said "DE doesn't try to make better weapons" or when you tried to claim Chaos is Hard CC while ignoring another person who contradicted you. 

Tell me again, George. How does Chaos stop enemy action? That 2 second stun doesn't cut it. Neither does enemies randomly targeting whoever they wish. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

We both know neither ability ever dominated the CC meta, with Snowglobe in particular having such a limited range that it couldn't hope to compete with, say, Avalanche

And you would be wrong. As I mentioned before, Snowglobe has the benefit that a frost can put down MULTIPLE snowglobes in different areas of the map to protect allies, and slow enemies. 

There are people with range focused and duration focused snowglobes. The second Mission of LoR or on the last portion of the TJV raid Snowglobe was popular to CC enemies all over the map as Frost could place one down, and all infested enemies would be slowed inside snowglobe for a longer period of time, then they could be with avalanche. This made parts of LoR much easier as enemies had 4 spawn points that a frost could cover in snowglobes. 
Frost's snowglobe is probably his most used ability since you can have multiple of them in use at any time, in comparison to only avalanche at a time. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm sorry, Hunter Munitions? Of course I'm going to ignore this,

No, you are ignoring this cause it proves your point wrong. 

The bow builds in that video are identical except in 4 ways. The Lenz has Stormbringer and Infected Clip. The Bramma has Vigilante armaments and high voltage. 

This means that the Lenz has way more boosted elemental damage, with 2 full elemental mods, while the Bramma has a status mod, and multishot. The Lenz has Hunter muntions as well, and despite its higher crit rate, it loses to the Bramma. 

Here you are once again ignoring blatant facts, and blaming "Terrible builds". 
This guy goes through multiple builds, and the Bramma constantly outdamages the Lenz. 

You just can't handle the facts are stacked against you.

 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Your cherry-picking of evidence is itself invalidated by the rate at which people pick the Lenz over the Bramma in-game, too.

Oh, the evidence is not cherry picked friend. It's abundant and everywhere. Sorry but a guaranteed ice proc, doesn't hold a candle to something like a kuva bramma viral proc. Maybe you should check which bow does the most base damage, and see what bow has the higher critical damage. The Lenz's higher critical chance isn't enough to help it. As in both examples I have given with multiple builds the Kuva does more damage to enemies. 

Sorry, but you are wrong. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm not, though, I'm simply pointing out that, even with all the variants, there are still hundreds of separate weapons,

You are though. Because many weapons are improvements over other weapons in terms of damage or utility. You also fail to recognize that that within a certain weapon's function (being a status weapon or a crit weapon) there is a definitive best weapon of that desired function. 

You can't argue that, as there are 133 examples of direct upgrades of weapons. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Nice attempt to twist the definition of horizontal power,

Uh, yes. Please point to me the frame that can compare to Octavia killing enemies at that level. 

Show me a frame that can directly compare to Octavia doing the most damage on an 8 hour survival. Go on, I'll wait. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is also still not the strongest weapon in the game, as noted by the Tigris Prime, and as noted by your own implicit admission of it being the best bow,

Actually I admitted it is the Best Status weapon in the game. The Tigris is the best single target weapon in the game for dealing Procs. As I have pointed out, there are numerous situations where either by choice, preference or other option that people wouldn't use the Tigris as another weapon would surpass it in a different situation. 

Example being the Bramma being far better at killing groups of enemies. The Tigris is the best single target gun for status in the game, But I'm not sure if it is the best weapon anymore. Not when the Kuva Bramma takes 2-3 shots to kill an entire group of enemies. Will have to get back to you on that one. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

As you yourself are also just pointing out, our weapons become MR-unlocked long before we cap out on MR, to say nothing of the weapons that can be obtained before others while being significantly stronger than them. Every time you repeat yourself, you manage to sink your narrative even more.

MR cap is meaningless and pointless to our discussion. But you talk so generally about warframe without giving a clear example. LIKE WHAT. Show me an example of a weapon performing like you say. 

Which weapons? You sink your own narrative as you have failed to bring a single notable example to the argument. NAME A WEAPON that fits your example. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't need to go play Destiny, because I've played games with horizontal progression that did beautifully precisely

 

Ok, like what games? Bring me an example.

Your last example of Mystic Dungeons failed to address my criticisms of it, as it had endless scaling like warframe has, that makes the mechanics difficult as endless scaling puts pressure on players to do mechanics correctly. Yet again a failure to bring an example by name, and coast off into the void of nameless games that did it right. Example please. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

 TF2 being a good example of this.

Tf2 is a PvP game. Bad example, because different genre. Guns have to be sidegrades, just as any PvP is more delicately tied to balance. TF2 also doesn't have weapon scaling, power progression or level up like warframe. 

Tf2 is a multiplier PvP shooter, and not a dedicated MMO/MMO-lite like warframe is. TF2 is skill based, while Warframe is infinitely more gear based. Props for giving me an example, but it is a bad example. Apples to Oranges. PvP games are bad examples for A PVE GAME.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is the... third time we went over this, I think? I was in fact the guy advocating to get rid of scaling, but only because it precisely doesn't succeed at making the game more difficult, only more tedious,

Actually it does make the game harder. That's why harder enemies with more health and more damage are harder to kill. When you look at the Eidolons, they are harder to kill because they scale. They do more damage, take more damage, and thus their difficulty goes up. 

Hence why enemies in games often get more health in later expansions, so that players fight harder enemies. Show me an example of a game that doesn't give enemies more health for a larger challenge. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Meanwhile, you claimed then to have no problem experiencing content, only to do a 180 now and claim that you consider Warframe challenging. It is you, not me, who are caught in a contradiction.

Actually this is you directly twisting my comment to lie. Twice now I have clarified that I am talking about endurance runs. Runs where you go into a mission and fight enemies till they scale enough to become a challenge. This is you directly lying, for your point. I will be addressing this lie of yours to a moderator. 

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I did read your point, and still fail to see the relevance of your casuistry, or its relation to prior examples. Please, do elaborate, if you can.

Because in a defense mission, or a solo survival, I need to kill enemies often, and quickly in order to make them drop life support, or protect the defense objective. As enemies get stronger, they are a larger threat to me, and a larger threat to the defense target. 

In solo survival missions, I now have a difficult task of killing level 600 enemies fast enough for them to drop life support so I can continue the mission. If level 600 enemies did not have their health scale, the task of killing them in mass to get life support would be easier. Level 600 enemies have anywhere from 400k health to 2 million a pop. 

A level ancient healer at level 30 has 5400 health. a level 600 has 2 million health. Killing these targets fast enough to retain life support is a challenge, (and necessary as the enemies around them get damage reduction till I either radiate the healer, or kill it.) 

Thus my challenge and difficulty continually rises to the point where I cannot continue anymore. Enemies outscaled me, and my ability to kill them in a timely manner.

15 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Never in my entire time posting on these forums have I heard of a character limit, and as you well know, I've written some pretty long posts myself. This dubious excuse raises an eyebrow.

I literally tried typing more, and nothing came up. So I ended my post and posted a smaller post. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[CopperBezel]

What is the deal with Hunter Munitions, though? It does baffle me. The only weapon I've found where it actually reduces my TTK is the Acceltra, which is unsurprisingly a weapon with a ludicrously high fire rate and crit and no status. I can get away with switching my Corrosive to Viral so that the Bleed will have a smaller health pool to bleed off, and I spend a little more time waiting for the enemy to die but only about the same amount of time shooting them, and of course it works on Alloy as well as it does on Ferrite where Corrosive would really lean on getting in a lot of procs.

It does do decent work on the Bramma thanks to the grenades having a separate chance to crit from the main AoE so that with some multishot, it'll usually get a Bleed or two in there.

So I get that it's a viable option, and because armor scales exponentially while health scales linearly, it's only going to become more effective past the levels I'm testing it at, which stop around 125, and quickly eclipse other options beyond that point. But people seem to use it on nearly everything and are convinced it's a good choice at level 80. And so far as I can tell, the chance to trigger a Bleed doesn't increase by crit tier, so never exceeds 30%, and I'm getting the full benefit of HM so long as I'm using it beside Viral on a 100% crit gun, while it's also depending on a fair number of individual hits (pellets or bullets or explosions or whatever) the same as Corrosive does.

I just don't get it. = /

Edited February 28, 2020 by CopperBezel

[BloodyEy3]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Chaos does not stop enemy action.

it does !! the first time they get affected by chaos they take their hands to their head and shake it for minor duration. that part which is similiar to a stagger is hard cc. the main part then thought is that they shoot each other.

wiki page: nyx chaos ability

Can be recast while active.

• Only one instance of Chaos can be active at a given time, making enemies who are currently affected lose its effects.
• Reapplies both the stun and confusion.

--> they dont state this "stun" before but mention it on recast --> its not only on recast its on every cast (also the first one). the stun being what i described --> similar to banshee silence

(why even argue about S#&$ if u actually dont know stuff. its not like u sat in wiki 10h memorized all stuff then went to simularcron for 2000h and playtested every possible ability and its interaction)

i hope as youve argued multiple times "u dont prove ur point", i in fact have proven my point ! (should result in you accepting it)

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

What is the deal with Hunter Munitions, though? It does baffle me. The only weapon I've found where it actually reduces my TTK is the Acceltra, which is unsurprisingly a weapon with a ludicrously high fire rate and crit and no status. I can get away with switching my Corrosive to Viral so that the Bleed will have a smaller health pool to bleed off, and I spend a little more time waiting for the enemy to die but only about the same amount of time shooting them, and of course it works on Alloy as well as it does on Ferrite where Corrosive would really lean on getting in a lot of procs.

It does do decent work on the Bramma thanks to the grenades having a separate chance to crit from the main AoE so that with some multishot, it'll usually get a Bleed or two in there.

So I get that it's a viable option, and because armor scales exponentially while health scales linearly, it's only going to become more effective past the levels I'm testing it at, which stop around 125, and quickly eclipse other options beyond that point. But people seem to use it on nearly everything and are convinced it's a good choice at level 80. And so far as I can tell, the chance to trigger a Bleed doesn't increase by crit tier, so never exceeds 30%, and I'm getting the full benefit of HM so long as I'm using it beside Viral on a 100% crit gun, while it's also depending on a fair number of individual hits (pellets or bullets or explosions or whatever) the same as Corrosive does.

I just don't get it. = /

I don't use that mod very much personally. I did do some experimenting on it after you brought it up. (I don't have a single build that uses it to my knowledge.) 

I think it's about slash procs ignoring armor, and the slash proc is based off raw damage. I tried it with and without serration and noticed the general slash procs go up about 3x the damage.Basically I think it turns crit weapons like the Bramma into Slash proc machines. So maybe high BASE DAMAGE weapons with high crit just get huge ticks off of it?

When I googled it for more information, the first thing I read was 

Quote

Ideal on weapons with high critical chance and low status chance such as the  Lenz, in order to help it scale better against armored targets.

Which in the context of this thread just makes me laugh lol. 

Can you do me a favor?

Can you screenshot what your Bramma does with hunter munitions? I'm curious now what the slash procs with that look like. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

it does !! the first time they get affected by chaos they take their hands to their head and shake it for minor duration. that part which is similiar to a stagger is hard cc. the main part then thought is that they shoot each other.

wiki page: nyx chaos ability

Can be recast while active.

• Only one instance of Chaos can be active at a given time, making enemies who are currently affected lose its effects.
• Reapplies both the stun and confusion.

--> they dont state this "stun" before but mention it on recast --> its not only on recast its on every cast (also the first one). the stun being what i described --> similar to banshee silence

(why even argue about S#&$ if u actually dont know stuff. its not like u sat in wiki 10h memorized all stuff then went to simularcron for 2000h and playtested every possible ability and its interaction)

i hope as youve argued multiple times "u dont prove ur point", i in fact have proven my point ! (should result in you accepting it)

Except that I really don't consider a two second stun to be hard CC. The stun is too short, and cannot be extended with power duration. Same reason I don't consider Ember's old accelerant to be hard CC either. Same reason I don't consider Miasma to be hard CC either. All those abilities have/had a short stun on them. 

Chaos, Accelerant and Miasma also don't prevent enemies from shooting you, directly after the ability. 

I do consider abilities that you can extend longer then two seconds to be hard CC though. Like Rhino Stomp, Stasis, or anything else.Also having to recast Chaos in order to re-stun for two seconds? I'd rather use any other ability to stop them. 

I look at it like this way. How many attacks does CC prevent or stop? 
Chaos stops 2 seconds of attacks, then every enemy under chaos can attack freely and wildly with no discretion. That includes Nyx. Nova casts Molecular Prime. If an enemy could shoot you 10x normally, that enemy can only shoot you 2.5 times now in the same amount of time. 

(Nova slows attack speed and movement speed by 75%. That means an enemy can only attack 1/4th as much. Hence 10 attacks turn into 2.5. A nyx stuns for 2 seconds. that means that out of 10 shots? The enemy gets 7-8 shots off. The stun really only prevents a few shots. 

Limbo who everyone here agrees is hard CC, does stasis and prevents all attacks. 10 attacks become 0. 

On the list of CC that puts Nyx's chaos as the weakest CC, as enemies are briefly prevented from action, then go crazy. Nova is much higher at slowing and stopping enemies, and limbo's tophat mystically turns into a crown of CC. 

Would you like a video showing a group of enemies kill me while under chaos? 

[BloodyEy3]

Gerade eben schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

xcept that I really don't consider a two second stun to be hard CC. The stun is too short, and cannot be extended with power duration.

That is the defintion of hard cc !!!!! just because u dont consider that hard cc, it stil lis hard cc !! had 20sec duration 75% slow is never hard cc !! while a 0,5sec stun is always hard cc !

also it is affected by slows (thats how warframe is coded --> all animation based duration are affected by slow, so that hard cc is longer)

i never said nyx is pure hard cc. ive said nyx has a hard cc compartiment on that ability. but the actual ability is soft cc.

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

(Nova slows attack speed and movement speed by 75%. That means an enemy can only attack 1/4th as much. Hence 10 attacks turn into 2.5. A nyx stuns for 2 seconds. that means that out of 10 shots? The enemy gets 7-8 shots off. The stun really only prevents a few shots. 

this makes absolutly no sense. yeah a slow gets 1/4 as much attacks off. it still attacks

 

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

prevent enemies from shooting you, directly after the ability. 

you personally countered ur own statement. getting 1/4th doesnt matter its that you get hit at all. also the nyx stun is direct hard cc, so no one shoots in that duration, afterwards they shoot eachother (depending on however threat/ alertniss works in warframe) which means they shoot each other. its just harder to give a number or equation you completly missed that point ! you also complelty disregard that molekular prime has a slow expansion. it doesnt instantly affect all enemies in a room but travles, which also is not represneted in ur math.

also look how you bluntly defend ur opinion and  mindlessly argueing. i ve proven you that nyx ability has a hard cc compartment while nova slow doesnt and ur answer is "for me its not hard cc"

thats literally being ingorant. while proven wrong you still chose to believe sth else because of ur own opinion and at this point you actually invalidated alot of ur points in ur arguments before. because u said that this is not what you do. that you are a reasonable person that doesnt mind changing his opinion if proven wrong. ! (thats literally what you and the other guy throw in each argument --> yes i am, no u arent, yes i am, no you arent, yes i am, no you arent --> at this point the "no you arent" statement seems proven ! i am not saying for the other person that this is not true as well (he might be as ingorant and thick headed as you, but i am not gonna read through 10 pages of 2 childs argueing for that sake.

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Just now, BloodyEy3 said:

That is the defintion of hard cc !!!!! just because u dont consider that hard cc, it stil lis hard cc !

Not quite buddy.

Crowd Control (abbreviated to CC) is the term used to describe an ability that temporarily reduces a unit's ability to fight. The term 'crowd control' comes from the ability to control the enemy team during fights, by either restricting their contribution or means to escape.
 

Crowd control (also called CC) is a term used in MMORPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) and MOBAs (Multiplayer Online Battle Arenas) to refer to the ability to limit the number of mobs actively fighting during an encounter.^[1] It can also refer to abilities that influence or prevent the abilities or actions of other characters. Crowd control can be extremely powerful, controlling the possible outcomes of an encounter. Players use crowd control to create offense/defense ratio imbalances between themselves and their opponents; used properly, CC often renders an opponent nearly useless, allowing the CCer to use abilities/actions against an opponent without fear of retaliation or response. In a group setting, crowd control often makes combat safer, easier, or viable.

Hard CC greatly reduces enemies ability to attack, or completely prevents them from taking action. Limbo being hard CC is one of the few things this thread agrees on. 

Chaos' stun does not greatly reduce enemies ability to attack, and it only stops them from action for two seconds. Sorry, but I don't consider two second stuns significant when there are literally dozen of abilities that offer better Crowd Control. 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Hard CC greatly reduces enemies ability to attack, or completely prevents them from taking action.

So... what is the difference between that and soft CC, then? Doesn't this also mean Chaos is hard CC, given that it prevents enemies from taking action against the player?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

So... what is the difference between that and soft CC, then? Doesn't this also mean Chaos is hard CC, given that it prevents enemies from taking action against the player?

Except that I just made a video just for you. Shows my nyx flying in, using chaos and then dying. 

I explained it as Chaos doesn't stop the enemy from taking action. It simply gives enemies the chance of directing their attacks at somebody else. Thus its soft CC as besides the short stun? 

It does not slow, negate, or prevent the enemy from attacking. A Molecular Prime will drastically slow attacks down, so that an enemy makes 1/4th of the attacks it would be able to. 

Limbo Vauban, Rhino Prime, Equinox and the like prevent the enemy from using any attack while in Bastille, Rhino Stomped, Sleep, etc. 

So on the list of CC? Chaos is soft CC, as the stun prevents an attack or two, while Nova is close to Limbo, but not quite. Nyx's 0% slow vs Nova's 75% slow vs Limbo's 100% slow.

As you can see, Nova is the closest out of the three to Limbo's ability to stop attacks completely. 

Also, you just posted a rant to me, that complained about me ranting about somebody else. Please develop some self awareness. You do the very thing you complain about me. 

[Teridax68]

On 2020-02-28 at 10:47 AM, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Except that I just made a video just for you. Shows my nyx flying in, using chaos and then dying. 

The same can happen with Nova casting MP and still getting one-shot.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yikes, it only took one passing comment by someone else for you to throw another completely into a rant

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... where did I attack your post length? Literally every statement you have made in this quote is a lie.

Calling something a rant comes off as an attack against post length. As mentioned, how is this any different from the three different people you replied to who told you chaos isn't soft cc? How were your responses not a rant to them? Yea, you really either don't understand how you come off to people, or your thinking is very skewed.

 

I get people's opinion that Nova is soft CC as it doesn't stop enemies completely like Limbo. But the difference between the two, is 25%. (75% slow vs 100% slow.) 

But if a 2 second slow counts as CC then Miasma is hard CC.... That doesn't really fly in my opinion. 

10 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a lie, as you wrote out multiple different posts in succession

Source needed. Secondly, if a moderator did combine three of my posts into one, they did it on their own without letting me know. Thus you are wrong as I have no knowledge of this happening. Either the moderator did it out of courtesy, and didn't say anything, or something like this happened tonight where two people replied to me at once, and I posted two posts in a row addressing two different people and different points that were unconnected. 

I like to try to format my responses so they are easy to read after all. (In my opinion anyways.)

 

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

It does... how? Your conspicuous failure to explain yourself here is pretty suspicious. Also, doesn't the fact that multiple people have now accused you of lying kind of suggest you haven't been as honest as you've claimed to be?

Source needed. People have told me I'm wrong. That's very different from lying. I have called you out for lying several times, which is off you purposely saying something incorrect after being told the facts. 

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Ah, so your justification for providing no supporting evidence for your patently untrue claims is to try to put the blame for it on others. Interesting. As it stands, within all of your ranting exists not even a single concrete example, so your failure to make any sort of factual statement on this thread is complete.

Imma let you in on a little secret. Between you and me, out of the two of us. I have given example after example in most cases very specific in weapon choices, mods and frames while you very often provide very little evidence let alone and example. Your last post had one example being TF2 and that's a record for you in the evidence category. You are currently tied with yourself for number of examples being used, and the other post you used with an example was Mystic Dungeons. 

I don't think those are very good examples, but I use facts like the best weapons being tied to MR. Or the numerous weapons and warframes in the game that have a direct upgrade like the Prime gear. You tend to generically try to debase me, which is why you get nowhere. You provide no counter example that is excluded from my examples to use against you. 

For example. @CopperBezel got me to try hunter munitions on my Bramma. He mentioned it, and I tested it out in simulcrum. Now after seeing a single shot insta kill several level 140 corrupted gunners, I am no longer convinced the Tigris Prime is the best weapon in the game. I have spent the last 15 minutes trying to get the Tigris to one shot these enemies, and despite all the slash and viral procs I get off? Two shots is the best I get to kill one level 140 gunner, while the Kuva Bramma gets multiple of them per shot.... I really did not expect Hunter Munitions to be this good.... 

So, as of now, I don't consider the Tigris to be the best weapon until I can get it to top this hunter munitions Bramma. Both Hunter Munitions and the Bramma have lead me to the observation that MR gives you access to stronger weapons, while there is real power progression in collecting mods. 

 

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Ah, so your justification for providing no supporting evidence for your patently untrue claims is to try to put the blame for it on others. Interesting. As it stands, within all of your ranting exists not even a single concrete example,

You mean besides the evidence you pretend doesn't exist or blatantly ignore. "BRAMMA ISN'T BETTER THEN THE LENZ." Right, right. So you telling me the Prisma Veritux isn't just a better veritux? You are telling me the Tigris Prime is a sidegrade to the Tigris? You are telling me MR gates to unlock content quests and the most powerful rivens isn't power progression gating through MR. 

Whatever you say buddy. This is blatantly evidence. 

Speaking of evidence. I have a video for you. A base Lenz vs a base Kuva Bramma. I was interested to see how the two compare without mods. I thought maybe the Lenz with its higher critical chance would beat the Bramma. 

I was surprised to learn that the Lenz takes about 3x the amount of shots to kill an enemy as the Kuva Bramma does. Would you like to see? I also have one were I put on the same mods on both, like point strike serration split chamber and vigilante armaments. Same thing. Odd. 

 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2020-02-28 at 10:52 AM, Teridax68 said:

The same can happen with Nova casting MP and still getting one-shot.

And the difference? I never said Molecular Prime stops you from getting shot. 

You specifically used the words "Locked Down." Implying that Chaos is hard CC, that will directly stop enemies from attacking you. You also said Chaos is hard CC. Which multiple people corrected you on. Now you attack me that I don't now how to use Nyx properly despite the conversation never being about how to Nyx properly. The subject was if Chaos is soft CC or not. 

I did say that Molecular Prime will slow the enemy down, reduce the number attacks an enemy makes period, and in examples of enemies that fire frequently for damage (like heavy gunners or infested) greatly reduce the damage they can dish out. 

[Teridax68]

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Calling something a rant comes off as an attack against post length.

It's not, I'm criticizing the generally unhinged and disconnected nature of your posts, as well as their overall inefficiency. It does sometimes pay to write a little more to elaborate on a point, but in this case the near-totality of what you say is repetitious and not really pertinent to discussion.

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 As mentioned, how is this any different from the three different people you replied to who told you chaos isn't soft cc? 

Remind me who those three people were? Because right now you're being told, with logic and examples, that it's not the case. You should also be asking yourself this same question, given that you're now finding your own argument turned against you.

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I get people's opinion that Nova is soft CC as it doesn't stop enemies completely like Limbo. But the difference between the two, is 25%. (75% slow vs 100% slow.)

A cretinous statement. This is like claiming that there is only little functional difference between 75% damage reduction (which multiplies one's EHP by 4) and 100% damage reduction (which makes you totally immune to damage).

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Source needed. Secondly, if a moderator did combine three of my posts into one, they did it on their own without letting me know. Thus you are wrong as I have no knowledge of this happening. Either the moderator did it out of courtesy, and didn't say anything, or something like this happened tonight where two people replied to me at once, and I posted two posts in a row addressing two different people and different points that were unconnected. 

I like to try to format my responses so they are easy to read after all. (In my opinion anyways.)

You admitted to this happening already, so you have no reason to deny this now, and whether or not you admit to know whether the moderator intervened is irrelevant to whether or not they did.

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Source needed. People have told me I'm wrong. That's very different from lying. I have called you out for lying several times, which is off you purposely saying something incorrect after being told the facts. 

And you would be lying here as well, given that you've in fact just been called out on arguing dishonestly.

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Imma let you in on a little secret. Between you and me, out of the two of us. I have given example after example in most cases very specific in weapon choices, mods and frames while you very often provide very little evidence let alone and example. 

Where? The fact that I've given multiple concrete examples already refutes this, meanwhile you're simply asking me to take you on your word here, which doesn't quite fly.

Just now, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

You mean besides the evidence you pretend doesn't exist or blatantly ignore. "BRAMMA ISN'T BETTER THEN THE LENZ." Right, right. So you telling me the Prisma Veritux isn't just a better veritux? 

... no, I'm not? Part of the problem with your argumentation is that you're fixating on things that were never said, like this bizarre notion that I somehow think variants don't exist. Tell me, why is that?

7 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And the difference? I never said Molecular Prime stops you from getting shot. 

You said it was hard CC, so unless you're trying to twist that definition again, you did.

[CopperBezel]

Glad to hear that the Bramma is working. I did eventually get around to those screenshots, but! X]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

I think it's about slash procs ignoring armor, and the slash proc is based off raw damage. I tried it with and without serration and noticed the general slash procs go up about 3x the damage.Basically I think it turns crit weapons like the Bramma into Slash proc machines. So maybe high dps weapons with high crit just get huge ticks off of it?

Yeah, I think it's like a normal Bleed effect, which means it's scaled from base damage, affected by weapon damage mods like Serration, headshots, and crit, but unaffected by elemental and physical damage mods, with that damage times 35% applied on hit and then once per second six more times. So you're building up a stack of damage that's applied per second as an application of each of those procs. And yeah, the strength of the initial proc is unaffected by armor, unlike other DoTs, while Bleed itself deals True damage, which has no strengths or weaknesses, ignores armor completely, and is generally modified only by hard DR values that enemies that aren't status immune rarely have (although players can still resist it with Adaptation etc.)

Anyway, because I've noticed that posting builds is generally ... well received, I'm going to preface this by saying that my Bramma build is crap, don't @ me. Anyway, in the box are some Bombards and some CHGs bleeding out at 979 damage per tick.

Spoiler

 

And yeah, aware that I need to forma again to replace High Voltage with Vigilante Armaments at the very least, since that'd be more chances for slash effects without actually losing anything. It's just on there to boost my status a little at the cost of distribution. And of course it's an electric Bramma, mostly because I was farming the Vengeful Charge ephemera. Maybe I'll get a toxin one now and fuse them that I'm trying to get that ephemera anyway. 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by CopperBezel

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

5 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Glad to hear that the Bramma is working. I did eventually get around to those screenshots, but! X]

Yeah, I think it's like a normal Bleed effect, which means it's scaled from base damage, affected by weapon damage mods like Serration, headshots, and crit, but unaffected by elemental and physical damage mods, with that damage times 35% applied on hit and then once per second six more times. So you're building up a stack of damage that's applied per second as an application of each of those procs. And yeah, the strength of the initial proc is unaffected by armor, unlike other DoTs, while Bleed itself deals True damage, which has no strengths or weaknesses, ignores armor completely, and is generally modified only by hard DR values that enemies that aren't status immune rarely have (although players can still resist it with Adaptation etc.)

Anyway, because I've noticed that posting builds is generally ... well received, I'm going to preface this by saying that my Bramma build is crap, don't @ me. Anyway, in the box are some Bombards and some CHGs bleeding out at 979 damage per tick.

  Hide contents

 

And yeah, aware that I need to forma again to replace High Voltage with Vigilante Armaments at the very least, since that'd be more chances for slash effects without actually losing anything. It's just on there to boost my status a little at the cost of distribution. And of course it's an electric Bramma, mostly because I was farming the Vengeful Charge ephemera. Maybe I'll get a toxin one now and fuse them that I'm trying to get that ephemera anyway. 

 

 

SO! In case you are unaware. You mentioning Hunter Munitions on the Bramma has changed my world. Like.... I did not think it would be so powerful. 

This is honestly ridiculous. Is your Bramma at 60%? My Bramma is at 30%. Like... 

I can hear this weapon say "This isn't even my final form."

If you want... Can I show you the slash procs Im getting? I have a crit riven you see on my bramma....

Edited February 28, 2020 by (PS4)UltraKardas