@DE the nerf Warframe NEEDS, but players don't want!

[Buzlok]

Howdy And Stuff.

With the nerfs coming out to armor scaling grineer will no longer be unkillable monsters at high levels and just be the slightly tankier faction that they were meant to be. Hurray! HOWEVER, this also means that no faction in the game scales extremely hard anymore, which is a good thing, but it also means that they will be back. The biggest threat to game balance and the multiplayer experience that Warframe has ever had. Nuke builds!

The fix is simple, healthy, and good for long term balancing, but it WILL get some understandable hate regardless!

Nerf frame mods. Base values on a lot of frames are reasonable and flexible for game-play, but once someone joins the lobby with a max range and power build you know it'll be boring as #*!%. A high level certified late game mission should have at least SOME challenge to it even if it isn't much.

I would suggest reducing the effect of ALL range and power mods by about a third. Stretch would go from (45)% to (30)% more range and Intensify would go from (30)% to (20)% more power as an example. The negative effects of corrupted mods would probably be reduced comparatively. These changes would no doubt limit or weaken some existing builds, but that's the bloody point!

This would actually make the game more fun and diverse despite being unwanted?

Since this nerf would only apply to mods, the base values on abilities would be unaffected and the nerf'd mods will still be more than usable, just not as insanely meta. Let's be real here. Do you really need 280% range on your Equinox or Saryn? Wouldn't it be fine to actually enter combat with an enemy? Maybe use those weapons you forma'd 4+ times a little?

This change would also mean that people would start taking more than just raw offensive mods in their load-outs. People might start taking more than 1 defense or utility mod and not get 1 shot in your kuva lich mission while typing "WTF" in the chat (I do it too, no hate). People would start to get diverse and creative with their builds and you would see new strategies and builds that weren't used before. People would finally start tapping into Warframe's MASSIVE mod pool that is barely used; Albeit some mods aren't used because they are just bugged or useless, but DE would actually fix them if people started trying them and gave more feedback.

As a side note it would also be a bit less discouraging to newer players if offensive mods weren't as impactful as they are now, because it wouldn't feel as necessary to get a ton of endo to max out things like corrupted mods as the stats given are less valuable. Although this is a VERY minor point that was just in my head.

Overall this isn't a complete fix to nuke builds and will have some downsides to it, but in general is should help in balancing the game. A single buff or nerf can't always fix everything that it was intended to fix but as long as the change is healthy and makes things easier to balance down the line it's a good change. Having an equilibrium between a game being "balanced" and fun is important too, but even a grind based game like Warframe is dangerous to leave at a stage where it's unbalanced to a boring degree! Any feedback on this? preferably constructive? It doesn't need to be constructive. Memes work too.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Buzlok

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Wouldn’t that just nullify the whole armor fixes?

[Wandering_Sun]

fun is subjective, *you* might have more fun with changes like this but that's not necessarily true for everyone or even the majority. Any sort of change like this has to be very slowly rolled out and closely monitored to ensure it doesn't cause massive player drop off. The issue being that all of the games systems based around combat are precariously balanced on a knife tip altering any one to any great degree can send the whole game crashing down. Are Nuke frames really a problem? I don't really feel that they are, the games style and systems all push that play style and making things less efficient can make the game significantly less fun for large parts of the population.

[EDM774]

Kill the power fantasy feel of a power fantasy game? Great logic 10/10
 

I came to play warframe to be an all powerful space ninja that wipes the floor with anything it sees. If you want balance and fair play go play conclave LMAO

[Buzlok]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wouldn’t that just nullify the whole armor fixes?

I don't think abilities having up to at most a 20% TOTAL reduction in range and power would change the fact that grineer are gonna take easily triple the damage before armor shred. Also this wouldn't in any way stop weapons from doing damage so no.

[Buzlok]

2 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

Kill the power fantasy feel of a power fantasy game? Great logic 10/10
 

I came to play warframe to be an all powerful space ninja that wipes the floor with anything it sees. If you want balance and fair play go play conclave LMAO

It's not like the damage you deal will magically go away it would just limit nuking enemies that aren't even in the same room as you purely with abilities. A nuking nerf just makes the mission more fun for the other 3 sorry bastards stuck with the nuker. Free loot is free loot but the afk system makes you have to do stuff anyways.

[EDM774]

10 minutes ago, Buzlok said:

I don't think abilities having up to at most a 20% TOTAL reduction in range and power would change the fact that grineer are gonna take easily triple the damage before armor shred. Also this wouldn't in any way stop weapons from doing damage so no.

When you're trying to squeeze every bit of % from a build loosing 20% is a WHOLE LOT . I get it you don't like min/maxing your stuff and that's fun for you that's ok everyone has their playstyle. but don't go proposing your visions to people who do not enjoy that at all. There are people playing this game with the sole purpose of squeezing every bit of the potential of the gear they have, don't go ruining that for them.

 

EDIT : when I was a new player and saw a nuke frame in the squad I never for a second thought to myself "great this guy is here to ruin all my fun" , no instead I thought "WOAH I could probably be as strong as him one day" and that kept me playing and grinding to get stronger.
I know not everyone thinks the same way but I believe in general warframe will lose more than it will gain with a change like yours implemented.

even now when I see someone literally obliterate a room with one click I'm not mad at him and instead ask for his build so I get to do that too.

Edited January 26, 2020 by EDM774

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 minutes ago, Buzlok said:

I don't think abilities having up to at most a 20% TOTAL reduction in range and power would change the fact that grineer are gonna take easily triple the damage before armor shred. Also this wouldn't in any way stop weapons from doing damage so no.

But you’re actively reducing the intended effect of what the armor fixes are supposed to do. That’s counter productive to what DE’s trying to do.

Edited January 26, 2020 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Buzlok]

8 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

When you're trying to squeeze every bit of % from a build loosing 20% is a WHOLE LOT . I get it you don't like min/maxing your stuff and that's fun for you that's ok everyone has their playstyle. but don't go proposing your visions to people who do not enjoy that at all. There are people playing this game with the sole purpose of squeezing every bit of the potential of the gear they have, don't go ruining that for them.

I don't see how a suggestion for DE to think about is ruining the game for others. Balance changes as replied by another person are slow and should be treated insightfully. If DE likes a change like this it will happen or it won't and even if it does, if it doesn't work it can just be reverted or have the numbers adjusted until it does work. It's not a massive rework or anything either.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Buzlok

[EDM774]

1 minute ago, Buzlok said:

I don't see how a suggestion for DE to think about is ruining the game for others. Balance changes as replied by another person are slow and should be treated insightfully. If DE likes a change like this it will happen or it won't and even if it does, if it doesn't work it can just be reverted or have the numbers adjusted until it does work. It's not a massive rework or anything either.

This is a discussion and I was just stating my opinion on the matter. We're here to talk about it and that's what we're doing.

[Buzlok]

8 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

12 minutes ago, Buzlok said:

I don't see how a suggestion for DE to think about is ruining the game for others. Balance changes as replied by another person are slow and should be treated insightfully. If DE likes a change like this it will happen or it won't and even if it does, if it doesn't work it can just be reverted or have the numbers adjusted until it does work. It's not a massive rework or anything either.

This is a discussion and I was just stating my opinion on the matter. We're here to talk about it and that's what we're doing.

Right...? Um, were we not discussing???

Edited January 26, 2020 by Buzlok

[selig_fay]

DE had some ideas about elite enemies. Now we have a problem in the form of nullifiers and ancient destroyers only. But many forget about Manic, who can actually oneshot you and who is actually invulnerable to your AOE abilities. I think we just need more special enemies.

[Tiltskillet]

I feel a lot of these issues might better be handled by first restricting a few abilities to LoS that aren't currently.  Then there are probably some abilities that would still need some individual range / base damage tuning. 

Maybe after that, Overextended could use a review.

Anyway, I think DE should be very reluctant to make sweeping changes to range and strength mods.  Way too many unintended side-effects, especially on abilities that aren't a problem.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Buzlok said:

 

You’re honestly not.

[CopperBezel]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Wouldn’t that just nullify the whole armor fixes?

The armor changes alter the shape of the e-health curve over level. Reducing frame power would be a linear effect. It would also only affect damage - I.e., the thing that armor is scaled against - for direct-damage abilities and exalted weapons and very marginally for buff weapon abilities, with no effect on weapons. Direct damage abilities, of course, are rarely useful in higher-level (sortie 3 and up) content anyway, and only a couple exalted weapons are competitive with the top weapons in their categories. Armor strip abilities don't all scale with strength; Hildryn would lose some of hers, as would Saryn's spores and Mag's Crush augment, but Ember would be unaffected. 

So no, on the power strength end, it would spottily and marginally reduce the effectiveness of some things that are already weak in comparison to weapons, and a couple of good armor strip powers.

Nerfing range mods, on the other hand, would just mean that building for range would be harder, that the ceiling would be lower, and the variety of builds would be smaller, while probably affecting the frames that actually make use of range for any nuking the least. It also wouldn't affect the range of abilities that have a hard set range or scale with something else, like Peacemaker and Molecular Prime. It's an ineffective and misguided attempt to nerf Saryn by nerfing everyone else, but randomly and without respect to balance. 

4 hours ago, zhellon said:

DE had some ideas about elite enemies. Now we have a problem in the form of nullifiers and ancient destroyers only. But many forget about Manic, who can actually oneshot you and who is actually invulnerable to your AOE abilities. I think we just need more special enemies.

It's very easy to forget about Manics, considering they're just ordinary Grineer that you have to kill three times. You didn't include parasitic eximuses, which is conspicuous and probably deliberate.

[selig_fay]

3 минуты назад, CopperBezel сказал:

It's very easy to forget about Manics, considering they're just ordinary Grineer that you have to kill three times. You didn't include parasitic eximuses, which is conspicuous and probably deliberate.

Eximus is a very bad idea in my opinion. Only toxic and energy deliver a headache.  The rest differ from ordinary mobs only in that they give more synthesis.

[kwlingo]

Nuke playing will always over power and over take warframe usage. DE made a big mistake when they implemented this. Now most players are God felling hungry not skill level competence.

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

[CopperBezel]

7 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Eximus is a very bad idea in my opinion. Only toxic and energy deliver a headache.  The rest differ from ordinary mobs only in that they give more synthesis.

Fair. They're an old idea and there's not much balance among the types, certainly, with fire eximuses that sometimes cause a knockdown, ice eximuses that take an extra shot, and energy eximuses that cause you to shuffle through every enemy within 100m looking for the one that has you shut down. I do feel that energy eximuses could be a starting point for making better elite enemies, if only because they're simultaneously pretty effective and pretty terribly designed. (I feel like Nullifiers are the most successful at giving us something interesting to respond to that requires a change of tactics.)

And I might be shortchanging the Manic, but I just don't find myself really noticing them in practice. In the rare case that one manages to use its grab on me, my first reaction is always to be surprised to remember they can do that. 

[selig_fay]

Только что, CopperBezel сказал:

Fair. They're an old idea and there's not much balance among the types, certainly, with fire eximuses that sometimes cause a knockdown, ice eximuses that take an extra shot, and energy eximuses that cause you to shuffle through every enemy within 100m looking for the one that has you shut down. I do feel that energy eximuses could be a starting point for making better elite enemies, if only because they're simultaneously pretty effective and pretty terribly designed. (I feel like Nullifiers are the most successful at giving us something interesting to respond to that requires a change of tactics.)

And I might be shortchanging the Manic, but I just don't find myself really noticing them in practice. In the rare case that one manages to use its grab on me, my first reaction is always to be surprised to remember they can do that.

First, need all frames to be able to work without energy. If for frames with large armor or good ability mechanics (like saryn, wukong or wisp, because they can actually maintain 1 ability without spending energy for a long time) this won't be a big problem, then for some frames like Mag (because Mag is a caster that concentrates on CC more than killing) it will be a huge problem. You know, this will actually trample into the mud those frames that are experiencing huge problems with energy now.

Manic by themselves, they are not very common in the game. I don't understand why DE just won't add them on a permanent basis. Unlike nullifiers, these guys are funny.

 

[MysticDragonMage]

15 hours ago, EDM774 said:

Kill the power fantasy feel of a power fantasy game?

until players can wipe entire maps with most other frames as effectively as a nuker frame like Saryn, the topic on weather or not the game even is a power fantasy remains unconfirmed.

i personally think "power fantasy" is exclusively a community-made concept just because of the existence of a few stand-out-ish powerful warframes classified as nukers.

[Lone_Dude]

28 minutes ago, MysticDragonMage said:

snip

Developers stated that Warframe is a power fantasy on multiple occasions during devstreams. It ain't some made up concept.

This post is just another poorly thought through idea coming from a self-proclaimed genius who knows what's good for us and thinks that a couple of irrelevant nerfs that will damage less popular frames more than meta ones can suddenly make the game better. All because he gets upset when an Equinox or Saryn wipe the map and speed up the grind for everyone involved. In a damn PUBLIC match. #*!%ing pathetic. Another useless bandaid for nukers at the expense of non-min-maxers.

[Benour]

Omg look! This saryn can nuke lvl 30 mobs, wooooooo OP please nerf. 

Also post above 👍

[selig_fay]

OK, nuckers kill the entire map, make special mobs for all factions that will reflect damage across the entire map.  And nuckers will not be able to see the damage reflection animation if the mob is behind a wall. Don't like dying? You can always make the ability radius smaller. xD

[CopperBezel]

12 hours ago, zhellon said:

First, need all frames to be able to work without energy. If for frames with large armor or good ability mechanics (like saryn, wukong or wisp, because they can actually maintain 1 ability without spending energy for a long time) this won't be a big problem, then for some frames like Mag (because Mag is a caster that concentrates on CC more than killing) it will be a huge problem. You know, this will actually trample into the mud those frames that are experiencing huge problems with energy now.

I don't mind the idea that some elites are more of a hard counter to some frames than others, honestly. Like, nullifiers are a bigger deal to some frames than others, since ones that manage to fall on you end buffs and eat stacks but don't do much else, and they're immune to most ability effects while bubbled, but not direct attacks. So all those 90% DR tank frames have to give nullies a wide berth, while someone like Khora can just melee slam on their heads and keep moving, and Hildryn and Mag have basically nothing nullies can cancel at all. 

So comparably, I think it's fine if Hildryn can entirely ignore an energy eximus while it's the #1 only game objective right now as soon as it shows up for a Khora. But I do think we need a visual and sound cue that we're getting leeched and a very visible effect of some kind to follow to the source. 

1 hour ago, Lone_Dude said:

Developers stated that Warframe is a power fantasy on multiple occasions during devstreams. It ain't some made up concept.

Yeah, I feel like that goes without saying, enough that I'd have to wonder what qualifies as a power fantasy to MysticDragonMage. At the same time it isn't a very good argument that everything should just be easy or whatever. And then there are cases like Kuva Liches that were meant to be explicitly designed to work in contrast to the usual dynamic - poorly, mind, but designed. X ]