Zephyr needs another look.

[TheGodofWiFi]

Like a few other frames in the game, Zephyr has a lot of potential due to her theme. She is a frame that can manipulate the wind, which as a powers has a lot of varied applications. Right now though, DE don't seem to be making the most outof her theme. All she would need are a few changes that would make her more fun to use.

Changes to her abilities;

• Tail Wind
  • I would change this ability so that it functions similar to Archwing, like Titania's fourth. I have never really understood why Zephyr, a frame based on the element of Wind and is themed after a bird, has never been able to truly fly. Right now Tailwind just sends you hurtling in one straight direction and while it's useful for travel across large AOE maps, it's not very practical anywhere else and not as fun as it could be. Making it similar to Archwing so she can actually fly would better fit the theme, make the ability more useful/versatile and would make it more fun to use. This could either be a drain ability, with the drain affected by duration, or it could still be on a timer. Zephyr would also have her own version of blink, like how Titania is getting hers.
  • While not sprinting/boosting, the hover mode would be a lot slower, which allows you to have more control in general environments.
  • To add more functionality and incentive to the ability, I'd also add a damage boost to staying airborne.
• Airburst Rupture
  • This ability is rubbish. It's only real use is to make the Tornados bigger. It honestly feels like a temporary placeholder ability until something better comes along. I'd remove this and in its place, I'd add a new ability called Rupture. This ability would be a spherical blast AOE that expands outwards very quickly, causing enemies to suffer from bleed procs caused by Zephyr manipulating the pressure of the air within them and crushing their organs, which causes internal rupturing. This also causes enemies to be stunned for a small duration. The AOE distance and bleeding proc ticks would be affected by ability duration, but the damage of the ticks would naturally be affected by ability strength. However, the stun duration on enemies would not be affected by mods.
• Turbulence
  • This ability is fine as it is. No changes.
• Tornado
  • Remove the unnecessary synergy with the second ability. Other than that, it stays the same.

I think these changes would make Zephyr a much more fun and versatile frame. What do you guys think?

Edited March 16, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi
Feedback from other players

[Birdframe_Prime]

I think... that there is nothing that an archwing flight version of Zephyr could do that a non-archwing flight version of Zephyr can already do and in many cases do better.

You're absolutely right that Zephyr needs another visit. You're also absolutely right that Tailwind is the one that needs the most work. You're absolutely right that Airburst is literally the least they could have done for an ability and it needs to be better.

I'm utterly shocked that you think making Tornado funnels bigger is even a function on Zephyr, it literally serves no purpose and doesn't provide any mechanical benefit whatsoever. Bigger funnels don't even have a bigger range.

I can throw in the ideas that are the result of arguing for four years with other Zephyr players on the Forums here, if you're interested, but they're long-winded enough ^^

But Zephyr, with archwing controls, a drain ability? Please don't nerf my favourite frame.

[TheGodofWiFi]

17 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think... that there is nothing that an archwing flight version of Zephyr could do that a non-archwing flight version of Zephyr can already do and in many cases do better.

You're absolutely right that Zephyr needs another visit. You're also absolutely right that Tailwind is the one that needs the most work. You're absolutely right that Airburst is literally the least they could have done for an ability and it needs to be better.

I'm utterly shocked that you think making Tornado funnels bigger is even a function on Zephyr, it literally serves no purpose and doesn't provide any mechanical benefit whatsoever. Bigger funnels don't even have a bigger range.

I can throw in the ideas that are the result of arguing for four years with other Zephyr players on the Forums here, if you're interested, but they're long-winded enough ^^

But Zephyr, with archwing controls, a drain ability? Please don't nerf my favourite frame.

Thanks for the feedback.

Fair point about the tornados. I'll edit the OP so it reflects that.

Personally I don't think Zephyr can dp anything outright better than an Archwing, since it has far more freedom of movement. She's very fast sure, but Tailwind isn't really useful in most general missions IMO. The energy drain wouldn't be huge, since that would defeat the point of making her fly in the first place and Zephyr is mainly built for duration anyway. Turning it into an archwing ability would allow so much more versatility and freedom of movement. She wouldn't loose her speed either.

Sure I''m interested in your ideas. Post them.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

If i was to rework zephyr

❄ Passive: stay the same

❄ First Ability {Slight tweak}: Holding the ability lets her move in a continuous motion until she reaches maximum distance or the player lets go of the button. Then the player will have to use the ability again.

- I'd do that to the first ability for better control when you use it in a small space. Now you can have little short burst of movement, or go super far superfast, a lot easier.

❄ Second Ability {Addition}: Using it creates an area where wind will keep pushing anything that comes in contact with it 5m up in the air (except temeates). If Zephyr or her allies gets within radius of it, their double jump and aim glide duration will be refreshed while aim gliding in the radius keeps them still in the air. It would be a 5m radius AOE that last for about 15 seconds

❄ Third Ability: Stay the same

❄ Fourth Ability {Addition}: Saves some of the damage you put into the tornados for 20 seconds and keeps applying it to enemies in the tornado, tornadoes seek out enemies, and grow in radius the more enemies they pick up. Radius can reach up to 5x the size (If not more). You also will now have the option to only spawn 1 tornado for 25 energy, keep tapping the button to spawn up to 4.

Edited March 15, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[Birdframe_Prime]

Good to see you're reasonable. 

1 minute ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Personally I don't think Zephyr can dp anything outright better than an Archwing

Heh, here's the question then; what does Archwing actually 'do'? It's a movement system. And as a movement system, without any form of shrinking down for more air-space (like Titania) or enough actual space, like the open landscapes, it's incredibly clunky movement and you won't even be able to get through doors (which are on every single mission type and are actually the small ones by the majority).

If you're dedicating an entire ability to only this, what does it actually do aside from change how she moves?

Are you going to give her weapons? Are you going to make it easier to navigate maps? Does it maintain the defense she gives for standing over a Cryopod with her Turbulence running? You would have to do something like that, because an ability that grants Archwing movement doesn't actually do anything if that's all it grants.

The other thing to consider is that this ability would have to be a Drain. Drain abilities are always a nerf to a frame that doesn't have them in their kit from base, no exception. Trust me on that one, we did the maths years ago.

If you think about it though, what does Zephyr have in her kit that will let her exploit the air like an Archwing without any of the drawbacks of putting in an entire new ability and an entire new drain? She has a Hover. It's currently crap, we know this, but that's because of how you cast it and because it does absolutely nothing once you do.

How about we switch that up? Hover could be Zephyr's air brake mechanic and a self-buff mechanic all in one. Both a reason to use it, because you can stop yourself during a Tailwind, and a reason to keep using it, because it would buff something else she does.

It becomes the part of her 1 that you can use in any situation. Where the tap would always be a dash mechanic, a short hold (the short hold that's used to cycle abilities like Quiver) would then be the Hover, anywhere and everywhere. From the ground she would leap up and stop, from the air she would just stop. Give it an actual Duration, instead of being based on how long you charge it, and suddenly it also ties in with her modding for Turbulence too.

Think about the possibilities of a Tailwind-to-Hover combo, or a Hover-to-Tailwind, where at any point Hovering would not only put you out of the reach of melee units, with a Turbulence shield, it could also potentially combo with her kit. Like an improved Airburst cast would deal more mechanical effects, whatever those effects are, or it would add time to Turbulence for the duration you used it, or maybe it would add a mechanical effect to primary/secondary weapons while you're up there, like an actual sniper perch...

I can go on. As I mentioned, I've argued Zephyr for literally years now, and there's some fairly concrete ideas I can bring to the table about Tailwind, everything from quality of life to actual changes to the mechanics of the cast. And all of that would just be to one part of her kit.

There's possibility there in her kit already, don't waste it.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It becomes the part of her 1 that you can use in any situation. Where the tap would always be a dash mechanic, a short hold (the short hold that's used to cycle abilities like Quiver) would then be the Hover, anywhere and everywhere. From the ground she would leap up and stop, from the air she would just stop. Give it an actual Duration, instead of being based on how long you charge it, and suddenly it also ties in with her modding for Turbulence too.

Yea this is good, especially if the hold is really short because too much delay may be hard to control.

Do you have any current reworks of Zephyr?

Edited March 16, 2020 by (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII

[TheGodofWiFi]

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you're dedicating an entire ability to only this, what does it actually do aside from change how she moves?

It adds a lot more control and versatility than her standard Tailwind as it stands right now. You have a point about the airspace, but you'd definitely be able to get through doors. The reason why I suggested a drain is because otherwise it would kind of make Titania more redundant, but it could also be on a timer instead. So you'd still have to recast it at some point. When you're not sprinting (or boosting in the archwing sense) you'd move/hover a lot more slowly, which would allow you more control in general environments, so you wouldn't be smashing into things. We could also add a damage bonus to staying airborne, so it would have that as an added incentive to use that power.

I wouldn't give her weapons. It'd basically be like using an Archwing while in POE. You get to use all your normal weapons in this mode. Having an Archwing movement system would improve her 1 by a lot if it is done correctly IMO. It also means she would be the third frame to able to truly fly without the need of an actual archwing.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It becomes the part of her 1 that you can use in any situation. Where the tap would always be a dash mechanic, a short hold (the short hold that's used to cycle abilities like Quiver) would then be the Hover, anywhere and everywhere. From the ground she would leap up and stop, from the air she would just stop. Give it an actual Duration, instead of being based on how long you charge it, and suddenly it also ties in with her modding for Turbulence too.

Thats not a bad idea at all. I hate the current hover mechanic as its adds virutally nothing of value, since you sit in the air completely static for aboout seven seconds max. I can see your suggestion working, especially if you could actually move around in the hover mode, kind of like Hildryn's fourth but faster.

I still feel like having an archwing style movement is a viable option though. With that sort of movement it means you can just seamlessly hover around the area without needing to worry about launching yourself into the wrong position before you can stop in-time with this new hover-brake. Like I said previously; not directly sprinting with the new archwing mode would allow you more control with hovering and strafing. It also means you won't have to worry about extra things like actively choosing which direction to launch yourself in, looking that way, making sure you stop at the exact spot you want, then get back to the general action. It all seems a bit like busywork and a bit clunky when compared to other options though.

Your suggestion is still good though and definitely better than the current way it works.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Like an improved Airburst cast would deal more mechanical effects, whatever those effects are

Whta do you think about the suggestion of turning it into a direct damage ability like the one I mentioned. Air manipulation as a power has some devastating applications, internal rupturing being only one of them. You could remove the air from an area surrounding you, causing enemies to suffocate, oxidise the enemies themselves which causes direct physical damage. The possibilties are enormous.

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[TheGodofWiFi]

12 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

If i was to rework zephyr

❄ Passive: stay the same

❄ First Ability {Slight tweak}: Holding the ability lets her move in a continuous motion until she reaches maximum distance or the player lets go of the button. Then the player will have to use the ability again.

- I'd do that to the first ability for better control when you use it in a small space. Now you can have little short burst of movement, or go super far superfast, a lot easier.

❄ Second Ability {Addition}: Using it creates an area where wind will keep pushing anything that comes in contact with it 5m up in the air (except temeates). If Zephyr or her allies gets within radius of it, their double jump and aim glide duration will be refreshed while aim gliding in the radius keeps them still in the air. It would be a 5m radius AOE that last for about 15 seconds

❄ Third Ability: Stay the same

❄ Fourth Ability {Addition}: Saves some of the damage you put into the tornados for 20 seconds and keeps applying it to enemies in the tornado, tornadoes seek out enemies, and grow in radius the more enemies they pick up. Radius can reach up to 5x the size (If not more). You also will now have the option to only spawn 1 tornado for 25 energy, keep tapping the button to spawn up to 4.

These ideas are good. The first one sounds a little like Gauss' Mach Rush, which is never a bad thing.

Second ability sounds good, but other players may find it annoying, since flying enemies are kind of a pain to hit.

Fourth changes to pumping damage into the torndaos actually sound amazing. That would be a really nice change and would make them more damaging as well as CC. Although I'm not too sure about continiously tapping to spawn four of them. Maybe just leave it as it is and having them spawn four at the beginning. Saying that, it might be slightly OP to have four gigantic tornados going around the area scooping up enemies for 50k+ damage a tick, as awesome as that would be. So maybe just the one giant tornado.

Edited March 16, 2020 by TheGodofWiFi

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

Do you have any current reworks of Zephyr?

Oh, my friend, yes. Yes I do. Later though, when I’m at a keyboard.

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I still feel like having an archwing style movement is a viable option though.

It’s good to see someone stick to their guns, but when I come back I’ll give you that mechanical Tailwind rework I mentioned, see if I can convince you.

But there is one more little bit of first hand knowledge I’d like to put out there for you. Were you around for the first release of the Archwing in the rest of the game? The fabled Sharkwing update?

I ask because I exploited that buggy mess for all I could. The thing about it was that under some circumstances you could bug the transition ‘gates’ between normal mode and Archwing mode. One way made your character shrink to 0.25 scale for the rest of the mission, while another way made your full-size frame stay in Archwing mode instead.

What I mean to say here is that I’ve had experience trying to pilot Archwing controls through doors and through confined spaces. The backpack itself is just a cosmetic, the hit box for your frame stayed the same in that mode, and despite me having played Archwing to death on its launch... simple navigation was really, really hard. The geometry of Warframe is often misleading, things that appear to be solid are not, things that appear to be rounded are pointy... it’s difficult to judge height or distance when in that mode and the recoil from bumping something (even when it doesn’t damage you) can really throw off navigation.

I’m not making judgements in a vacuum here, that’s all I’m getting at. People already complain that Zephyr is difficult to play because of her passive, I think even I would start to complain if Archwing (without the heavy compensation) was her 1.

So, moving on.

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Whta do you think about the suggestion of turning it into a direct damage ability like the one I mentioned.

It’s better than base, buuuut... direct damage caps out. Even bleeds.

The first thing you’ve done right is removing the rag doll CC. Rag doll is CC, but it’s literally bottom-tier compared to all the other kinds we have in game.

The ‘but’ comes in with the ‘direct damage’ portion. If you want to talk real damage you need to think about Mechanical Multipliers. Self buffing at its best.

I’ll go into more detail later, but think about what would happen if Airburst lifted an enemy like Stomp did, marking it for bonus damage. Now, it would only last a limited amount of time, but then add in just a touch of synergy; Airburst points are a target for Tornado funnels to track. The nearest funnel will track the point of impact and then further CC enemies. Until Tornado drops the enemy, that damage buff will remain on them. Enemies then have longer CC on them, take bonus damage for the duration and you can use your own modded weapon damage to attack everything in that funnel at once thanks to its existing damage distribution function.

So the point being that making the ability work at base, then having synergy between it and the other abilities, that’s where you’re going to get real scaling damage ^^

Like I said, I’ll fill in all the gaps when I’m not on mobile, but there’s the gist.

[selig_fay]

@Birdframe_Prime Archwing is perfection. Archwing is the ideal. Archwing is a lifestyle. And alas, birds will never understand all the joys of a gravity-jet engine behind them.

If seriously, the problem of interaction between archwing and walls can be solved with the help of a wall-running system. And the fact that the doors open for too long is a problem of all fast frames.

[Mehbah]

Her passive is a joke, for two reasons. For one, she had it before everyone else got passives, yet she got nothing when everyone else got something. It's an indirect nerf as everyone else got better to some degree and she didn't. Second, low gravity is considered a drawback by the game itself. You can get it as a nightmare mission modifier and it's a possible effect when you break a hive, just like something like radiation hazards. Meanwhile already great frames like Wisp get passives like invisibility in the air. Come on now. And there's of course that movement has changed since Zephyr was introduced, but her abilities barely changed at all, so now all frames have almost the same air mobility as her. It's glaringly obvious that something more should be added to her passive. My preferred idea for a is a damage boost in the air for that bird of prey theme. At the very least give her infinite double and dolphin jumps. Other frames already have true flight, so that ship has already sailed. Don't even get me started on Wu Kong's rework. Yeah, extremely fast, controllable, invulnerable, healing, status cleansing true flight on a frame that also got massive buffs as well as QoL.

Tail wind is really bad after the rework that she got. It's really fast, but it goes for so long that you can't make use of it in almost any tile, and you instantly lose all momentum if you touch the ground at any point near the end of it. It's too fast to be controllable in most situations, yet useless for fast movement indoors. It's almost impressive to have such a contradictory ability, in a way. If you ever aim it slightly wrong, you'll be sent into the walls around the doors where you will be stuck for several seconds if there isn't ground below you, because trying to wall jump anywhere doesn't cancel your momentum so you're just jumping into the wall and to the sides. The reworked version was obviously made for the plains, yet shortly after that they made archwings free and those are much faster and can teleport. I don't even know what to do with the ability without changing it completely. I'll just point to Wu Kong's cloud and point out that he's a monkey, and Zephyr is a bird. Which should fly better?

Air burst was a buff, if only a minor one. Zephyr's offensive abilities are a joke so she needs to use guns, and air burst lets her knock down any (most) kinds of enemies while she's reloading. That's something. Come to think of it, I haven't tried it since the status changes so who knows if it even causes knockdown now. It can also be used as a short AoE box breaker. The cost is still ridiculously high for what it does, so that needs to be halved at least. The cost reduction in the air should be the default, and frankly the air cost reduction should be cut to begin with. It's the kind of "synergy" that has absolutely zero synergy in actual gameplay. I often find myself jumping for no good reason when I want to use air burst. It doesn't add to her playstyle, it just makes you jump for no good reason, and that can actually be a detriment to her because of her low gravity and how that affects her mobility in many tilesets. Take a look at what 50 energy gives you with many other, much better, frames and work your way from there.

Turbulence is fine. The rework nerfed it by adding a longer cast animation and not letting you skip it by casting it during tail wind, but it was a minor nerf. I just know that if DE actually does touch Zephyr ever again, they will screw up this ability. No, you don't need to nerf it because it's her only good ability. You don't need to give it your usual "synergy" by making it not protect you unless you use tail wind every five seconds. That is not what synergy is. Synergy is when you have an ability that pulls enemies in for crowd control, and when you have an ability that stomps the ground for AoE and to gain your unique resource. That's synergy, when you have two abilities that work fine on their own but that benefit from each other. Synergy is not when you have to use two abilities to make one ability useful.
You know what would be a huge boon though? If jet stream would stay for more than a second on other players. It's so bizarre. This is a game where you're constantly encouraged to be flipping around, yet for this movement speed buff to affect other players, they have to hug Zephyr all the time. Let people turn it off in the options or something if they don't want the projectile speed buff. If nothing else, let her be a poor version of a buffer.

Tornado needs to be fixed. Even after all these years I have no idea how it chooses its spawning locations. More often than not it spawns nowhere near enemies. Sometimes all four spawn exactly on the cursor, sometimes they spawn far from each other. Their tracking is questionable to say the least. Sometimes they actually move away from enemies. DE hyped up that you can lead a tornado by aiming after the rework, but that frequently takes one or more seconds to even register, and then it's very slow to move them around. And, of course, aiming is something that you normally do, meaning that it can interfere with your normal gameplay. The damage spreading when attacking the tornadoes was a good change, don't ruin that part. The "synergy" with air burst was not a good change. It's so pointless. All it does is make the tornadoes slightly taller. In all the time since this was added, the times where I could even attempt to make use of this can be counted on one hand. In most of those cases it still didn't do anything because tornado AI is terrible. When I first heard of this I assumed that it would make the tornadoes wider, which would help some with crowd control, and clearly others thought the same at the time. There are much better frames with much better crowd control and/or damage, so there is no reason for Zephyr's fourth ability to be bad at both. A large part of why it's bad is that it's unreliable; sometimes it will grab every enemy in the room, sometimes it will spawn all four tornadoes in the least populated corner. I've seen a lot of better suggestions for it over the years, some mentioned in this thread.

What niches does Zephyr fill? She's fast if you use her mandatory augment, though nowhere as fast as the true speedsters. The augment also gives projectile speed, which is a nice thing though it's certainly not something that makes her shoot up the tier lists. It can actually cause problems with some weapons, such as the Corinth's air burst which goes too far in most spaces, or manually detonated projectiles that become much harder to time. She's tanky against projectiles, which is really her one true niche. Unfortunately she is really vulnerable against AoE and melee. In a way her projectile shield can even work against her since it prevents you from getting much use out of arcane guardian and adaptation, which more traditional tanks get full use out of. But for Zephyr, you aren't taking damage until you do take that one hit that downs you in one hit. Or two hits now I guess, with shield gating. None of these niches is all that strong, and other frames do the fast movement and tanking things much better while offering other things besides.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I return.

Now that I'm at a keyboard and can really type, I'll pitch my usual ideas and see what you think. Who knows, maybe I can even convince @Mehbah about them?

So, let's get started.

The first thing is that people aren't exactly wrong about Zephyr's Passive, it's definitely time to add something to it. What I would add to it is... something we can fish out of her existing kit to make room for the other improvements.

Spoiler

Passive expansion: Light Weight, Big Impact.

Floaty as it is, Zephyr's passive is something that, should you learn how to navigate with it, will hugely improve your movement. The higher jumps, the cleaner movement in the air, it all mounts up to basically negate most of the obstacles that other frames face.

The key point is that Zephyr has very little ability to get down out of the air. She has Dive Bomb, which is sadly very under-utilised, has a janky 'aim differentiated' cast, and costs Energy, or she has the Melee Ground Slam. Having half of your options vanish when you're on a Sortie with guns only, or when you decide to take off your Melee, is really irritating, and having to cast an ability in a rather weird way instead is just as much an irritation.

So, Lightweight is staying basically as it is. Big Impact is taking Dive Bomb out of her 1 and making it the second part of her Passive.

Using the Melee Ground Slam with no melee equipped will send Zephyr hurtling towards the ground for a radial knock-down and very slight damage based on her height.

Using it with a melee equipped will give her custom animation and add a small amount of damage to the melee attack based on height.

This is your 'get me down from here' button. It's free, it's not over-powered, you have it at all times, and it's now a unique function over what other Warframes have in their mobility kit. Again.

With that said, we've just cleared up some room, and some cost, from her 1. Let's address that next.

Mehbah and others are completely right. The rework was literally only made for the Open Landscapes, it goes completely stupid in confined spaces and there are very few places outside of those very under-utilised sections of the game where it works.

Other problems that exist are the Momentum mechanic, which preserves 100% of momentum even if you go off the edge of the map, meaning that when you respawn on the ground you often just hurtle off the map again while performing the 'get up' animation. I've managed to hit it just right so that I respawned 4 times in a row before my momentum was spent. This momentum also makes things like Melee Ground Slams and Dive Bomb really difficult to aim.

A little while ago, DE did make a concession to the problem; now if you hit an object while the animation is going the animation cancels and you only have the momentum.

The good? You can use a Wall Latch or Wall Run to cancel your momentum if the animation is over. The bad? Unless you hit something the problems persist. The ugly? Not enough people know that Wall Latching cancels your momentum.

Let's fix it as much as we can.

Spoiler

1. Tailwind.

First, remove the animation completely.

Removing the animation allows her existing passive of in-air steering to take effect from the moment the ability is active, adjusting her direction in a similar fashion to Gauss and allowing her to curve through the air instead of just hurtle forwards. Everyone likes curves, and curves allow her to pass through gaps that would normally have had her impact the edge and expend her momentum up against the wall instead.

The next fix is simple, but can seem complex because of how it changes Zephyr’s base modding… or rather… how it expands it.

Change the stats that affect Tailwind. Currently the ability is based solely on Duration for its travel. This affects how long you jet forwards, and therefore how fast you travel that distance, with 100% conservation of Momentum that, in many cases, actively punishes you for using high Duration. That momentum is a real headache anywhere that isn't the open landscapes.

Since Duration is also what keeps you alive with Turbulence and what keeps your CC/Damage up with Tornado, this is not the ideal situation.

Switch the modding to Range and Strength. A default, unmodded Tailwind will travel a set range at a fast pace and then slow down at the end with approximately 50% of the Momentum conserved. This allows hang-time, but doesn’t punch you into the scenery.

A high Range build makes the base ability push you further and faster, but lowering the Strength makes you slow down more at the end in proportion. Meanwhile a higher Strength will allow you more momentum and a lower range will give you a shorter and proportionally slower distance, thus the mad dash becomes a more graceful bound through the air.

Range and Strength are variable on Zephyr. While you never want to go into negative Range, you can go quite close to it without suffering too much (that suffering is something I plan on fixing), or you can go right up to max Range to make the most of Turbulence’s defense. While Strength on Zephyr can go right down to minimum with a high range build, and up to past 200% if you’re building for a super Jet Stream or a Funnel Clouds setup.

So combinations could include a max-range, min-strength Tailwind that acts like the Operator Dash with low-gravity hang-time at the end, while a neutral-range and 200% Strength will arc you over the Plains of Eidolon or Orb Vallis like a pole-vaulter on the moon, with ample time to do whatever you want up there.

It’s a simple change to fix a simple problem. You can now mod Zephyr to where you want to take her. Want to go into the Grineer Asteroid? The open Landscapes? Tiles with a mix of both narrow and wider spaces? You have the builds for that. It’s all possible, and Tailwind becomes usable everywhere, and not just when you have enough room for it.

That's the first bit. Now on to the second, you've already read it in this thread, but here's the more formalised version:

Spoiler

1 (Again). Hover.

This ability is slow. This ability is grounded. This ability makes you sit vulnerable for up to 3 seconds for an end goal of sitting still in the air for… no real purpose. It doesn’t do anything. You’re hovering, great. Melee enemies can’t hit you, also great. Why are we sitting still in the air on the most mobile frame in the game? No reason right now. Just because we can so far. And if the reason is ‘just because we can’, why is it better than just Bullet Jumping into the air and using her passive and Aim Glide? Why is this better than just using the Aero Vantage mod? Or the precept for Moas? It’s… an odd-duck of the birdframe’s abilities.

Hover should be a tool to get the most out of Tailwind.

To all of those who doubt the changes I’ve made to Tailwind itself; this is the balance, the answer. Make it a mobility tool, not one that’s counter to mobility.

Instead of sitting on the ground, charging it up, simply be a half-second hold. Short tap casts Tailwind, long press casts Hover. Hover is given a true Duration that we can mod for, so that we see a timer and so that we can benefit from our normal modding. You hold 1 for a half second, anywhere, in air or on ground, and it casts.

On the ground, you launch in the air, the same mechanic. If you're in a low ceiling space, then the use of Aim Glide to fix yourself a little lower still works. You hover for a given Duration and you can move on at any time.

In the air, you simply stop. All momentum is cancelled. All of it. So what do you have? An Air Brake. Tailwind over a location, hit Hover, Tailwind in another direction, hit Hover. You can re-position yourself in the air for as long as you have Energy. (Note, I’m not asking to have it reset in-air jumps or rolls, or even reset the Operator transfer-in-air, just to have this freedom to move fast and stop when you want.)

Hover also needs to have a function that makes it better to use it than forget it; nothing huge is necessary, just a self buff. 

For example: When in Hover, Airburst’s flight speed is increased massively. It’s not a huge buff, but it’s a buff to your ability for using one of your lesser-needed functions. It also means that it’s not faster to actually go down to the ground and hit them with a stick than to stay up there and cast as currently is the case.

Another example, or maybe an addition: When in Hover (as opposed to just being in the air) Zephyr deals... bonus headshot damage. Lean into that 'sniper perch' mechanic.

Now that doesn’t seem like much, but I’m getting there.

Having addressed her 1 properly now, we need to improve her 2 to make it a full viable cast and not just a space filler for a better ability.

The cast mechanics itself aren't all that bad, you throw a projectile that hits all enemies in a line until it hits geometry, then it detonates for a radial effect. This is actually a great way to cast something, but a poor execution of an ability.

Plus, it has rubbish 'synergy' with one other cast in her kit, which needs to be fixed.

Spoiler

2. Airburst.

Ragdoll is a terrible CC function. It is. Well, if it’s all you have, then it’s good, but Warframe has multiple other types of CC that are so far-and-away better that they should genuinely be used as preference instead of Ragdoll.

Simple fix? Instead of Ragdoll, use the Lift function from the Exodia Epidemic arcane. It bumps the enemy into the air, controlled, in a pose that allows you to get clean shots. This is similar to Rhino Stomp and the Celestial Stomp augment for Wukong with the smaller base range and the shorter CC duration.

While that in itself is a significant improvement to the ability, along with the increased travel speed while Hovering, I believe we should genuinely go further.

This is to replace the function of ‘Airburst makes Tornado funnels bigger’: Enemies hit with Airburst are marked and take increased damage from all sources. Effect of this buff lasts until the enemies hit the floor. If they are picked up by a Tornado funnel, this will extend the buff.

Synergy effects; when in Hover, Airburst casts travel at hugely increased speed. In addition if Tornado is active, the nearest funnel will track to the point of Airburst’s impact.

What does this second Synergy do? It covers a known gap in Zephyr’s 4, the fact that the Tornado funnels auto target the enemies that are in range and can easily ignore places where they should be. It also means that after the CC from Airburst is done, a Tornado funnel can/will move in, capture enemies and use its own unique damage and status spreading function to ensure groups of enemies are still controlled and will spread damage to the marked enemies (that take the bonus damage from all sources).

So I got rid of the 'grows Tornado funnels' and replaced it with 'directs Tornado funnels'. Plus the ability is now a buff for both you and your team, because any hanging enemy takes increased damage, and the effect only continues if a funnel picks them up.

Tornado's funnels spread damage, status and crit to everything they touch, so having the enemies inside with damage buffs on them? Sweetness.

But before I fix Tornado, a couple of changes for Turbulence:

Spoiler

3. Turbulence.

You would think there’s not much to say here. Turbulence, depending on the faction, can be considered one of the most powerful defense abilities in the game. The balance is that, depending on the faction and specific enemies you’re facing, it can be one of the worst defense abilities in the game. This is actually not a bad place to be in, for now, and provides unique benefits that other frames don’t get.

And it works at every level of play, there is no scaling, it’s just a flat ‘no, your bullets mean nothing for the next 30-50 seconds’.

What’s not fun about it? No signal to show it’s ending, a slow casting time that locks you in place unless you’re in the air already, and the things it doesn’t cover like the ’penetration’ distance which scales with your range.

If you don’t know about that last one, projectiles that enter Turbulence can actually keep going a certain distance before getting redirected. With a high range build that’s almost unnoticeable, it’s negligible. But when the enemy is really close, like a Corpus Tech with a high-damage, high-rate-of-fire projectile weapon… you can still get shot.

What I would do to improve this is make sure that even with negative range, there’s a point where projectiles are completely unable to penetrate. Zephyr could have her head against the barrel of their gun and it doesn’t hurt. Why? Isn’t this over-powered? Does this make sense in physics? Nope. What this does is remove the penalty for building in negative range. You still wouldn't want to do that so much, because that then makes her incredibly vulnerable to explosives, but it means that projectiles in general have the same redirection as hit-scan as long as the ability is active. Key point is that the effect of the ability isn’t suddenly negated on a huge swathe of enemy weapons just because you slapped on a Narrow Minded.

Aside from that, Flame Throwers are not covered by Turbulence (like not getting Dental with your Health coverage). Why are Flame Throwers still not being diverted by Turbulence? They’re not even bullets, they’re particles, which is why they scale so much against us, Zephyr should be able to push those away if she can push bullets away.

Quality of Life is the ending cue and the mobile casting, buffs are for protecting against Flame Throwers and Projectiles (non-penalty for using negative range).

There we go.

Now, on to the finale. This one I'm going to use a little more finesse with my changes. DE knows how powerful this ability can be, just as much as I do, so we need to push it to that edge without pushing it over.

Spoiler

4. Tornado.

This one… hoo… this one is considered so divisive. People want to make it just one big Tornado, people want to replace it entirely… I've seen so many iterations of this, you have no idea.

Simple. Simple,elegant fixes to buff the ability.

Limit the range that the funnels can travel away from the point of cast. Remove the function that causes it to randomly spawn on an enemy in range. We know where we want to spawn our Tornado, we want to defend specific locations.

Spawn all four funnels around the point of cast and then they move outwards, but cannot go further than a fixed range away, they are free to roam within the area of the ability and can freely target enemies within that limited range. This means they don’t wander off, this means they’re not in the next room when you want them to be where the most enemies are. Fixed range also means that they can’t be too close, can’t be limited to just around a single point like a Defense target, and completely deny access to it. That point there is to prevent exactly what I know DE is worried about; if you were able to cluster all four Tornado funnels at a single point, the combined damage and status would not only rip enemies apart, but the physical funnels would deny damage on the target while they physically prevented enemies from getting close by CC grabbing them.

We can't allow that kind of meta-breaking power to form, that genuinely would be too much. Moving on:

Allow Range to increase the funnel draw range (which is a subtle way to increase the actual range, because they can draw enemies from outside of their roving range when they’re at the edge of it).

With funnels moving in a guaranteed area of control, able to be sent to a specific location by Airburst and having them deal bonus damage for capturing enemies marked by Airburst means there’s no need for the aim-to-steer function. We can cast Airburst and get a great synergy with that instead, but if people want to keep that aimed function then leave it in.

What these changes achieve is then a full area-of-effect ability that persists, providing more reliable and applicable CC. Shooting funnels becomes a far more legitimate function to spread damage because they’re actively seeking enemies that you’ve targeted and marked for them, and they get there more directly to do that job. Also the spawning means that changing the damage type of the funnels is a simple matter of shooting them, not having to hunt them down when they spawn on an enemy 50m away from where you were aiming.

This would be a massive buff to the ability overall without changing what it is or what it really does, just how it does it.

And... finally... the Augments.

Zephyr's augments are a mixed bag. Tornado's Funnel Clouds augment is a genuine trade-off function. More damage, more sources of damage, massively reduced CC (short staggers only). Jet Stream seems to be near mandatory on a lot of builds because it not only has the unique mechanic of increasing Flight Speed, which makes her a Shotgun monster, but it also is a straight passive buff to her movement speed. Then there's Target Fixation... oh boy... I've had a bit of fun with it, slapping it on instead of Jet Stream did make for a fun afternoon building up to insane damage, but... this ain't it chief.

So here we go:

Spoiler

Jet Stream: Perfect, let's not change this one.

Funnel Clouds: Apply the same mechanics to the augmented version as I did for the regular version; spawn at a point, fixed area of wander, and when directed with Air Burst the nearest 3 funnels will track to that location (since 1 regular funnel is 3 Funnel Cloud funnels).

Target Fixation: Change it. Target Fixation now applies to Hover. When Hovering repeated Head Shots now increase the bonus you can achieve with the base cast. Effect ends when you touch the ground for more than 2 seconds.

New Agument:

Air Inversion: Airburst no longer Lifts enemies, but instead tethers them to the point of impact, similar to the Ferrox alt-fire tethers. Damage bonus to marked enemies is doubled at base for the duration of the tether, but cannot be extended with Tornado.

The idea behind Air Inversion is the same as with Funnel Clouds, you sacrifice the full power of CC that the ability now has, and you trade it for potential damage. You can now choose which ability you find the easiest to use, the automated one or the easily-targeted one that gives you short-term immediate gratification. Of course the risk is that the enemies can now still shoot you while under the effects of the Tether, so be careful.

And so there's the condensed versions of my rework ideas.

These ones are built up over time from multiple arguments and threads, most of the effort did go into Tailwind, but that's because Turbulence is the 'carry' ability for the kit and Tornado has so much potential to be good with the simplest of changes.

Synergy is kind of a must. Both the natural, unforced kind that has your low-cost CC ability be auto-targeted by your high-cost CC ability to make the buffs longer, or where using your own mobility and brake gives you better performance on your low-cost CC cast for certain situations (if you're in a corridor, for example, the Hover won't help you and Air Burst will actually perform better by being thrown in a line at the enemies approaching). And the forced kind where you only really get the most damage out of Tornado if you use Air Burst to steer it around and get it to pick up marked enemies.

Plus... modding options. Being able to mod for where you intend to go, being able to fine-tune your Tailwind by balancing your range and your strength to make your own, personal version of the cast, and then always being able to stop if you over-egg the Strength...

Zephyr could be absolutely amazing, just with that.

What do you guys think?

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

On 2020-03-15 at 10:11 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I think... that there is nothing that an archwing flight version of Zephyr could do that a non-archwing flight version of Zephyr can already do and in many cases do better.

You're absolutely right that Zephyr needs another visit. You're also absolutely right that Tailwind is the one that needs the most work. You're absolutely right that Airburst is literally the least they could have done for an ability and it needs to be better.

I'm utterly shocked that you think making Tornado funnels bigger is even a function on Zephyr, it literally serves no purpose and doesn't provide any mechanical benefit whatsoever. Bigger funnels don't even have a bigger range.

I can throw in the ideas that are the result of arguing for four years with other Zephyr players on the Forums here, if you're interested, but they're long-winded enough ^^

But Zephyr, with archwing controls, a drain ability? Please don't nerf my favourite frame.

So you're a zephyr main...that keeps talking about how zephyr needs a rework constantly 

And people don't hate you for it?

What's your secret? Please tell me

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk

[Birdframe_Prime]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

What's your secret? Please tell me

Positivity, the fact that Zephyr really does need some work, and that I don't immediately hate everyone's ideas off the bat. I disagree with some, but that's no reason to be rude to them ^^

[Caelward]

Zephyr needs another look

Zephyr needs an actual in depth look that acknowledges feedback and problems.

Also, Birdframe_Prime has nailed what criticism is. Useful feedback without accusation.

[Cliff_Racer]

On 2020-03-16 at 2:28 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I return.

...

What do you guys think?

You know, I don't often see people who really "get" what a Warframe should be about, but your idea for a proper Zephyr retooling is very nice. You gave her her own mode of flight that isn't a shoehorned Archwing mode (even if I still get to be bitter Titania got it before Zephyr) and made her skills not frustrating to interact with. I'd endorse this.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 hours ago, Cliff_Racer said:

You know, I don't often see people who really "get" what a Warframe should be about

I didn’t get what Zephyr was about myself for the longest time. It’s years of arguments on here that did a lot to open my eyes to possibilities.

I miss some of my old debate partners, from back when I was ‘Thaylien’ and hadn’t adopted the meme, the good old 2017 debate squad...

Good to see @Caelward dropping in ^^

Thanks for the vote of confidence, the both of you!

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2020-03-16 at 3:28 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

What do you guys think

I love all your changes!!!

 

And your range idea i just have 1 suggestion. What if holding the ability button down affected how far the tornados would move? A small range would just summon one big tornado, bigger range would summon 2, and so fourth!

But yea the rework is near excellent i d say

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, (PS4)IIFrost_GhostII said:

What if holding the ability button down affected how far the tornados would move? A small range would just summon one big tornado, bigger range would summon 2, and so fourth!

Well that kind of falls under the prospect of Tornado becoming unintentionally over powered. Which should be a measure of it being an idea that's a little too good.

What you have in Tornado is one of those rare combinations of a total CC function, blocking ranged damage, personal damage amplification and a long duration all over a high range. While the damage on the main ability isn't high, the potential damage is impressive due to the weapon interaction and Status.

If you look at the other abilities in the kind of range/duration/potential/CC/mitigation it's... really rare. Abilities with total CC don't have the other aspects all together in the same package. You get some total CC abilities with range and potential damage like Bastille, for example, with it having the lift, the range and the Armour Strip, but you don't have the same Duration and you don't have bullet blocking and you still have to shoot individual units unless you turn it into a Vortex. Rhino Stomp is another close contender, but again low duration, less potential damage, no bullet blocking. Frost's Avalanche, wide area, total CC, there's a bit of potential damage there because Armour gets reduced while under the effects... but again, the rest of it isn't there.

It's remarkable when you think of the actual potential that Tornado could have if you went a little far with how you manage it.

So, while I do like the idea of being able to expand the range of Tornado over time to adjust how many funnels you summon and how far away that patrols, I definitely want to keep the ability fair.

Tornado isn't supposed to be better than, say, Bastille/Vortex. The balance of you being able to pump damage into funnels to hit everything inside (which has the effect of turning a single-shot weapon like the Rubico into an AoE weapon by proxy), is that the funnels stay mobile. They have to be things that you can't keep in one place. Too much convenience is bad design.

If you were to, say, use a minimum Range build to change the expanding area starting point to very close around you (similar to how you can with Gara's 4) then you would just summon a single stationary Tornado that is literally a Vortex cast without the enemy-pull, but with Tornado's damage spreading mechanic. As a bonus, unlike a Vortex cast, enemies can't then shoot whatever the funnel is standing over, like a defense pod. You'd have just put down a shield over the pod, one that sucks up melee enemies, prevents ranged damage, and every time you shoot it every enemy it's touching takes damage and on a good build there's up to around 52 seconds of that for one single cast. Now that? That's an unfair cast.

When it comes down to it, you aren't the first to ask that question, and you probably won't be the last. That's kind of why I have a whole long answer ready to go ^^

[Birdynerb]

As a Zeph main, I really like this rework idea ^^

I saw other posts, and they were good too, but this one is the best so far without completely changing what Zephyr is really about and how she can support the squad at higher levels as well.

Also, I can solo a LOT of things as her, but this idea would make it much easier

[Mehbah]

I have no idea how quotes work on this particular site.
@Birdframe_Prime
"Passive expansion: Light Weight, Big Impact."
I'm not sure about this, because it's very situational and dive bomb is very rarely useful to begin with. There's no good reason not to equip a melee weapon unless you want to inconvenience yourself, so the only time when it would really be useful is when you do gun-locked sorties. And in those cases you already have dive bomb, as inconvenient as it may be. Dive bomb isn't very useful for mobility either, because when you hit the ground you stop and have to build up speed again. Zephyr's problem with mobility is that you're often forced to jump to maintain speed and the straightest path to your goal, and she takes much longer to get down again. There are a lot of situations where other frames can do their rolling jumping speed dances to move fast, but if Zephyr tries the same she will take too long to get down again and just smack her head into a door frame. If you're looking to improve her aerial mobility, the first thing to look at is her mobility in the cramped areas that make up the significant majority of the game. Let her descend to pass that door frame without getting stuck and without losing all momentum. I guess you could give her infinite dolphin jumps and make them as bit faster while removing the slowing effect if you do them downwards. Or you could take your tailwind idea that retains player control.

"1. Tailwind."
The strength thing will probably throw a wrench into builds that use strength for other purposes, but other than that I have no objections. You know what though? Remove the energy cost from tailwind. It's useless as a damage or CC tool, and it's only barely better than the default dolphin jumps. If we're making she use tailwind for her normal movement, no point in making it use energy.

"1 (Again). Hover."
This is where I have objections. I get it, a lot of players keep complaining about "a shoehorned Archwing mode". She wasn't the first to get it even though she should have been, so now people stubbornly refuse to give in and admit that she should get that used goods true flight function. But the thing is that anything people can come up with for hovering, a true flight function simply does it much better. Let's take the issues I have with this suggested version of hover.
First, it's going to be really inconvenient. Hold the key to stop, press it to move (very fast), hold again to stop. Holding the key is inherently slower than tapping, and we're giving it to a movement ability. Making use of this is going to be extremely hard, and even more so in cramped areas. It would be another "this just isn't useful so bother using it in the first place?" function.
Second, positioning will be practically impossible. I want you to imagine playing archwing, but the only way to can move is by blinking. That's how using this would feel.
Third, that headshot damage bonus you suggested doesn't really suit her current weapon choices. I know that at least some Zephyr players use projectile weapons or shotguns because they have a unique synergy with her jet stream projectile speed bonus. This isn't a big deal, but I'd say that a damage bonus she gets should be more general to better suit the one unique role that Zepyhr does have.
Fourth, this is simply a more inconvenient version of archwing flight. It offers nothing that archwing flight can't do better. Hover? Just don't touch the movement keys. But unlike this hover function, you can simply tap the keys to make small adjustments when needed, instead of trying to wrangle tailwind and a hold to stop function. Any suggestion that involves a hover function will always, without exception, be worse than a true flight version of the same idea because true flight can hover whenever, (almost) wherever and with more convenience. That's my main objection. Hovering is inherently already part of true flight, and we're just trying to come up with more cumbersome and less mobile versions of that. All the suggestions you had for hovering could be applied to true flight.

"2. Airburst."
I have no objections. It's a pretty good idea. Using it to direct tornadoes is possibly not perfect, but it is an improvement over how it works (or doesn't work) now. I'll add another idea: make the projectile less wide. Currently, trying to throw an air burst through a door frame is very difficult, especially if you're at an angle to the door and then also factoring in that you're likely jumping to lower the energy cost. If there's an obstacle anywhere in between you and the enemy, the wide edges of the airburst will hit it and cause it to detonate. That will be even more of an annoyance if the ability also directs tornadoes.

"3. Turbulence."
No objections, though I don't see a need for an ending cue. Flamethrowers going through it makes no sense from a realism or game design perspective.

"4. Tornado."
All I can say is "eh". It's not a bad idea, but it doesn't feel great either. There already is much better CC in the game, so there is no need to be too scared of making it a good CC ability. Provided that we improve the AI for the moving tornadoes so that they don't actively try to do the least useful thing at almost every opportunity, yours isn't a bad idea. If we're scared of too much damage from stacking them, maybe just make it so that you can't place them less than ten (five?) meters away from each other. Tornado is a hard ability to change because it's so poorly designed as it is, that you can't really fix it without significant changes. CC has become less important in the game anyway, as it has moved toward a meta of simply killing everything in the area before CC can make any difference.

@Caelward
Accusations of incompetence are perfectly valid forms of criticism when that incompetence is glaringly obvious. DE stubbornly refuses to take perfect community suggestions for years (and I'm talking in general, not about this particular frame), and frequently makes huge changes that weren't thought through at all. They don't communicate properly. They keep introducing bad ideas that no one wants (RNG stats get a special mention) and if we're lucky they tone them down months later. They don't learn from the mistakes. They can take years to fix bugs, if they ever do. They have consistently shown incompetence, and so I will call them incompetent. I can discuss something with Birdframe above without calling him incompetent, but there is no reason to mince words when it comes to DE. They've had plenty of years to show that they can take feedback and they have consistently failed to do so. This is a heavily monetized game with many gameplay functions hidden behind a money-only resource, so there is no room for them to claim that "it's just a beta" or whatever other excuses they have. If we are playtesters finding bugs for them, they should be paying us, not charging ridiculous amounts of money for basic things like frame slots.

Edit: Yeah, I don't even know how to tag people here. Oh well.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Mehbah
Stupid newfangled forum technology

[Caelward]

@Mehbah

You almost had the tagging right, all that was left is to click on the name that pops up as you type the @ out.

As far as accusations of incompetence goes, well, I might be more vocal if I thought it would matter. I'm way past anger and down to dull disappointment.

As far as the passive divebomb shuffling, part of the issue is that passives aren't a place that get a great deal of extra power. It was me who introduced the concept initially, and it is @Birdframe_Prime who refined it. The goal was to take a vastly mistreated ability and turn it into a unique flavour passive for Zephyr that aims to solve the problem of how her low gravity passive interferes with the ground slam to cause Zephyr to rise slightly before she finally returns to ground. There seems to be little will to actually make divebomb good, but DE has successfully made it worse. But there is precedent for other frames having multiple minor passives.

The big thing is, we all know how to use ground slam, but how many players even know divebomb as it is, even exists? Maintain all the aiming and damage mechanics, just copy and paste the animation and speed up the time to impact for Zephyr and it's set. The use case for Zephyr being able to divebomb without a weapon is also just a negligible perk saved for situations like no melee sorties.

TL:DR- divebomb as a passive boost was aimed at bug fixing, mechanical clean-up and character flavour.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Caelward

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Mehbah said:

I have no idea how quotes work on this particular site.

There's a prompt when you highlight the text with your mouse or with the text select on mobile.

2 hours ago, Mehbah said:

Remove the energy cost from tailwind.

Why is it that people are having these conversations literally years after I suggest them and everyone says 'no, that's stupid, Tailwind is her main function!'...

Sorry, back in 2016-17 I made a thread, I can probably find the link for it if you want.

The simple premise was this; no matter how you buff it, Tailwind is not actually a good cast. Put it in her passive as a third Jump. You hold your Jump button anywhere and it triggers an un-modded Tailwind. Remove the animation from it, but it does everything else completely unchanged because the animation-lock is what makes it difficult to steer, reload, do anything until you get to the end.

This would leave Dive Bomb as her first ability, which I buffed significantly specifically because it was the one of the two that could actually be buffed to do things properly. That was the ability that had actual potential as a 1 ability, especially because of her passive and the addition of Tailwind into her passive, so there would never be a need to spend energy on Mobility. With both a 'grounded' and an 'airborne' Dive Bomb, there were effects, potential augments, potential marking for synergy, all of that.

Then we could have given her a new 2 that was actually functional in the way that a buffed Airburst would have been. One of the key aspects was a grouping option that lined enemies up for a Dive Bomb that would have massive synergy for damage.

An inclusion on the whole thing was a targeting point for the ground, so every time you were in the air, a target would be painted on the ground in the way that you can aim Nidus' 1 with a hold of the 1 button. It would only go a certain range away from you vertically, but it guaranteed that whenever you pressed 1, 2 or 4 your ability would hit there. Which would solve a lot of people's issues with in-air casting too.

The point of the whole thing being that there are so many ways DE could have actually used Dive Bomb, but they didn't. And Tailwind, the useless mobility function, became the core argument that everyone wanted to keep.

Anyway, it's funny how people are getting that idea three years after I suggested it. That's all.

That said, moving on:

2 hours ago, Mehbah said:

I get it, a lot of players keep complaining about "a shoehorned Archwing mode".

This would be where you underestimate me.

I didn't want Archwing mode on Zephyr, or any kind of flight mode on her, before Titania was even released. Not because I don't think Zephyr's a wonderful Air Casting frame, but because Archwing is just base terrible.

I think that Archwing mode is terrible even on Titania. Or it was until the recent buffs for both the in-air Archwing and Titania herself. Look at the changes you have to make to the frame in order to make Archwing mode actually work on her: You have to shrink her down, not because it's 'fairy themed', but because there's literally not enough air space to be full size and move at that speed. You have to give her custom weapons, not because it's thematic either, but because being able to fly up to a grineer and unload the entirety of a high-spread shotgun, or inaccurate bullet-hose, or anything else directly into its eye-socket would have been incredibly over-powered, and because there are no melee animations for Archwing that account for non-archwing weapons, DE would have had to re-animate every single melee stance for Archwing mode and that wasn't going to happen. She has to have a vacuum for picking up loot, even if people argue against it because of energy management, the vast majority of the community wanted one because they wanted the loot. It switches off companions, not because they can't still exist, but because companions are tied to the navigation mesh, they aren't correctly supported in the zero-G movement mode that Archwing currently has due to how DE programmed the system at base.

On top of that it would be a Drain function, which is, bar none, a nerf to frames that don't have that built into them from scratch. I did not spend four weeks of my time arguing the toss with actual maths, practical examples, and repeatable evidence to have people tell me that they think that it either isn't a nerf or that it would be in some way worth it on Zephyr. A drain function is not worth it. Duration beats it every time, and DE use Drains as a nerf to power to ensure that frames cannot regenerate energy without serious invested compensation.

On its own, archwing mode doesn't even do anything. It's mobility for mobility's sake and without it Zephyr can still do everything she always could. With it, you're dropping an entire ability in order to put it on there, and even then...

Look, do you know why Hildryn floats around with her 4 and can only attack with her 1?

Because if she could CC that wide area as a mobile Bastille that did damage over time and could use her regular weapons during it, that would be ridiculously overpowered.

It's not the flying that does anything, the flying is a way to control the power of the other effects.

So if you want to give Zephyr an Archwing flight mode, the only reason she would need one is if the effects of the ability without it would be powerful enough to warrant that kind of shift and drain. And even if you gave it to her, the base shift in how she moved and what she could do would need accommodations and allowances that the frame literally doesn't need right now anyway.

I would rather give Zephyr functional power without forcing Drain on her, and give her functional power without having to a mobility function that is not actually for mobility in the first place.

And you know how I came to this conclusion? By trying to make Archwing mode actually work.

I did. I tried. The only way that the flight mode would work on Zephyr is if you gave her something with that flight mode that made the energy investment and lack of melee actually worth it. In which case, if you're able to give that to Zephyr while she's flying, why not just give that to her when she's not flying and you get those benefits without all the down sides.

Right, on to the next topic:

3 hours ago, Mehbah said:

Second, positioning will be practically impossible.

This was again, something I tried. I know I can't actually do it with Zephyr under the current system, but it's nothing like trying to navigate with only Blink.

Mod for a neutral or even a negative Duration on Zephyr in a Captura or Simulacrum mode. Cast Tailwind and see what is the earliest you can hit the Jump button after casting. With the animation duration lower you still get her momentum, but it's a lot slower because she doesn't accelerate for as far, and I guarantee you that you will be able to position yourself so that if you wanted to go to, say, the top of a pillar and hover, you could do it. Timing that jump to say 'I would have stopped here' is actually really easy.

You would be able to get there and hit Jump, which under the current system won't stop you, but you'll be able to do it. Plus the modifiers I put on the changes up there do account for more sins than you'd think; the Range adjusts not only the distance, but the speed you travel, meaning that a build for higher Strength such as my Umbral Jet Stream build, would still only have around Neutral range. You can't really go for both Range and Strength on Zephyr, not without losing her Duration.

And what did I say happened at high Strength? All you do is hit 100% preservation of momentum. You don't go faster, your lower Range means you would travel much slower than a high Range build, and without the Animation (which again, animation locks are not fun on mobility) you can time your long-press of the ability much, much more precisely.

And at low Strength, with better range, you get much lower preservation of momentum. You could even build, as I mentioned, an Operator Dash version of the cast where instead of falling right after, you have Zephyr's low gravity and a very slight bit of momentum in order to stay aloft.

No, it's not the best option in confined spaces, but then again that's why the ability can be cast whenever you're in the air, how you get there doesn't have to be Tailwind. You can just bullet jump into the air and cast the Hover and it still works.

Beyond that your points are more opinion related, things that could and might be easily changed around. Headshot damage bonus was a potential, I would much rather something like being able to exploit the damage marking I put onto Air Burst. Maybe your weapons deal an additional bonus damage to enemies marked by Airburst? Multiply the multiplier? It could work.

Those parts of the suggestions are something that could be work-shopped more, and I'm not so fussed about them being kept in or not.

But do you see what I mean about Archwing mode and Tailwind at least?

I'm not making statements in a vacuum, I ran the tests, I've checked the possibilities, I've argued with people for absolutely years in good faith to make sure that when I talk, I'm not talking out my butt about changes like these ^^

[Cliff_Racer]

Hahahaha... they made an augment that turns Zephyr in to a flightless dodo in exchange for a tiny bit of power strength. This thread's never felt more relevant. 

[yles9056]

36分钟前 , Cliff_Racer 说:

Hahahaha... they made an augment that turns Zephyr in to a flightless dodo in exchange for a tiny bit of power strength. This thread's never felt more relevant. 

I guess it does show that DE did read Zephyr feedbacks.