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My feedback on RIVENS in general


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Since Rivens are for weapons i will put my feedback on then here.

As i understand DE explanation for Rivens existance is for equilize/calibrate weapons power, efficiancy and/or usage.

The thing that botters me is the "usage" - As i see it, when a weapon get over used insted of others, and i mean like it was with Kuva Brahma when almost everyone was using it 100% of the time, it is fair to nerf (because it was OP even without a riven). But when "usage" becomes the main consideration for all weapons in game it becomes a problem (IMO). For example Gram Prime is a very good weapon, if u have a good riven for it, with out it i would never touch it, it is too slow for me and if i can't counter balace it or have a speed another atribute riven it won't be worth for me, due to the melee weapon variety in game, so if Gram Prime riven keeps geting nerfs the weapon won't be usable anymore.

I think, when a riven nerf or up is to be done, Efficiency and Power should be the main atributte to be analised and forget Usage. I know that we could put it in a stream/chain and say one leads the other, but i don't feel that it is exactly true. Take Kronen Prime for exemple, it isn't the strongst melee in game, it is in the same level of manny other, but because it is the prefered weapon of few youtubers it became popular and got a riven nerf, if Kornen Prime was to be nerfed all 25+ status/crit wepons wich share near same level of atributes should be nerfed as well. (to be honest weapons like Kronen Prime should have lowest dispo riven, since they are already very strong without rivens, and i mean it, i personally like to use Nikana Prime because i know its riven won't be nerfed and is already OP). 

So, in resume, i would like Rivens to be a balancing tool, for making weak weapons usabe, and not a maket tool.  

 

Edit: Sorry for bad english

Edited by Silvertap
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My opinion, they should be removed, they were claimed to buff old weapons but they don't, 300% damage on pistol with low stats won't do much while a strong weapon with 120% damage will already outperform it again.

They rather should adjust stats instead of changing a mod every goddamn time it gets overused. But who i am talking to, DE not plays there own game to know how any weapon works, or having beta testers for that, a good company and free but it not excuces how they treat this like some science project every month or so, changing something and looking how reactions happen.

Edited by Marine027
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1 hour ago, Marine027 said:

My opoinion, they should be removed, they were claiemd to buff old weapons but they don't, 300% damage on pistol with low stats won't do much while a strong weapon with 120 damge will already outperform it again.

They rather should adjust stats instead of changing a mod every goddamn time it gets overused. But who i am talking to, DE not palys there own game to know how any weapon works, or having beta testers for that, a good company and free but it not excuces how they treat this like some science project every month or so, changing something and lookign how reactions happen.

I won't disagree, because it is your opinion and should be respected. Like you, i would like that all guns could perform well, although i like the riven idea, it has been misused and as such i wouldn't mind much if they got taken away... 

Edited by Silvertap
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3 hours ago, Silvertap said:

I think, when a riven nerf or up is to be done, Efficiency and Power should be the main atributte to be analised and forget Usage

Normally I would say something like, they say they are looking at power and efficacy when balancing Rivens alongside usage stats (with usage stats being the easy-to-spot indicator something might be amiss). But...I agree. Mostly.

There's a problem in the Riven system in that it looks only at the weapon's base stats and ignores pretty much everything else. If a weapon is popular, it's potential stat-boosts from Rivens get nerfed. If it's unpopular, it's potential stat-boosts from Rivens get buffed. That doesn't help if the weapon is popular or unpopular not because of stats (rare as that is for the popular category) but because of mechanics.

For example, Paris Prime has a 1.35 (5/5) disposition. It has decently high 360 damage, 45% CC, and 20%SC. Is boosting those stats going to help it? Not at all. It's unpopular because it's a one-target bow. It doesn't matter if it can one-shot enemies. It's a single-target bow.

Similar goes for some melee weapons and stances. Generally speaking: nikanas are popular because of Blind Justice; tonfas are popular because of Sovereign Outcast; and machetes are powerful for the heavy attack spins. Regular swords? They can have similar or even better stats as any of the other three but won't get to that level because they don't have the stances for it. (Not to mention most values on melee Rivens are worthless because Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and so on that vastly outperform any values a Riven can pump out)

Conversely, Kuva Nukor is quite popular because of its massive AoE status potential. It could have a 40% status chance instead of 50%. Probably even 35%. I doubt it's popularity would change a great deal because its draw is in the massive chaining.

(There's also a mathematical problem in that the level of performance they seem to want is below the top-of-the-line weapon performance. I.e., the lowest disposition Rivens are worse than regular mods, as if they're meant to make the weapon a tiny bit worse. Problem is: you don't need to install such a Riven. You can use the better, regular mod. So really, the level of performance they should be reaching for with Rivens should be above the top-of-the-line weapons.)

And that doesn't even get into things like the Stug, where even a top-of-the-line roll won't save that weapon. That Rivens are based on the weapon's base stats puts a substantial cap on how far things can go. They intend for something like, being able to slap a Riven on a Lato and getting something comparable to the Tiberon Prime. But the Lato's base stats simply won't let it get that far.

In many, many regards, the intended purpose of buffing weaker weapons closer to the stronger end of things has failed. Not just because of how disposition is calculated, but because the system 1. relies on the weapon's base stats and 2. ignores mechanical advantages.

I don't think that warrants removing Rivens. There are ways to fix those issues - for example, adding in mechanical stats, like explosive rounds or even ammo efficiency ala Velox; making Rivens add to base stats in some manner or another; and, as you say, adjusting dispositions more primarily on stats than usage. Those sorts of things can be done, theoretically at least, without nullifying the investment players have put in.

But that's also frightening, because I don't think anybody knows for sure how Riven-lovers would react to those sorts of changes. So I'm not holding my breath.

Edited by Tyreaus
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1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

But that's also frightening, because I don't think anybody knows for sure how Riven-lovers would react to those sorts of changes. So I'm not holding my breath.

I agree with all the rest that u said, and just selected this line to complement, or better saying, imputing my opinion about this last line. The game can't always favor or please everyboddy, but it should strive for its own good sometimes... We could argue that geting money is important, but having a health financial future is more important yet (IMO), in other words, i think it is already passed the time for warframe to figure out the "in game" math, and having a better planing on these things insted of letting things go as they make it self. (anyways, i'm getting off topic i guess).

I aprecciate your time and opnion. ty.

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On 2020-07-31 at 1:48 PM, Silvertap said:

As i understand DE explanation for Rivens existance is for equilize/calibrate weapons power, efficiancy and/or usage

That isn't what DE have said - yes, worse weapons get bigger boosts, but there's no goal to "equalise" them. The Lenz gets much better rivens than the Bramma, but it still isn't going to match it.

Rivens are supposed to make the unloved weapons worth revisiting. The Bramma will still be better than the Lenz, but with a riven you can take that Lenz to a sortie/arbitration and still be killing stuff.

On 2020-07-31 at 1:48 PM, Silvertap said:

Efficiency and Power should be the main atributte to be analised and forget Usage

Efficiency and power are not relative measures that can be easily compared. Even if it did, powerful weapons are often limited by utility (think Bramma's ammo reserve, or Tigris's duplex trigger, or various snipers with reload longer than their combo timeout). Biggest numbers in the Simulacrum does not mean best.

There is already a metric of weapon power, and that's MR, but from about MR6 on up its pointless. There are amazing weapons that are low MR, and high MR weapons (ahem Aklex) that suck.

On 2020-07-31 at 1:48 PM, Silvertap said:

But when "usage" becomes the main consideration for all weapons in game it becomes a problem (IMO).

I quite like this, as it means you can find unpopular weapons that become epic.

🙂

Usage is measurable. DE can tell exactly how popular a weapon is. But it's also the exact thing rivens were designed for - DE don't care if a weapon is overpowered, they care if it becomes the only ones players use. 

Rivens aren't there to make weak weapons powerful, they're to make unpopular weapons more played.

On 2020-07-31 at 1:48 PM, Silvertap said:

i would like Rivens to be a balancing tool, for making weak weapons usabe

I'm not sure we want balanced weapons. Warframe's incredibly unbalanced weapons are part of its charm, just as Destiny's incredibly well balanced weapons are part of why it becomes boring so fast.

Warframe isn't about one weapon being the same effectiveness as another, it's about laughing as everything explodes.

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In my opinion rivens should have the ability to stat lock, which would also require kuva. Each time you desire a stat it's kept, and you can continually do this until you have the exact stats you require. This does not mean it will be any less of a grind, but does mean that ultimately your hours of kuva farming will eventually be rewarded. 

 

Secondly rivens will still be bought as despite the game being all about grind, there are plenty who just want to purchase without farming, some of which is down to time restraints I'm sure. 

One big issue with rivens is it has brought so much third party plat into the game, something which I received and ultimately lead to the death of my account. I then did some research on various third party selling sites and asked the buyers what they wanted the plat for. Of the 80 I messaged, 56 replied, with 55 stating rivens was the reason. Fact is DE can give people the promise of the perfect roll, but still lock it behind a truck ton of farming. Ultimately everyone is happy

Edited by (PS4)ALSxKNK
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On 2020-07-31 at 2:48 PM, Silvertap said:

For example Gram Prime is a very good weapon, if u have a good riven for it, with out it i would never touch it, it is too slow for me and if i can't counter balace it or have a speed another atribute riven it won't be worth for me, due to the melee weapon variety in game, so if Gram Prime riven keeps geting nerfs the weapon won't be usable anymore.

I have got bad news for you, you have been severely spoiled. The Gram Prime is the BEST heavy blade in the game (by quite a margin). It was considered the BEST melee weapon in the entire game at introduction. It's disposition has always been far too high, and it will continue to drop.

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Riven mods are a band-aid that are preventing any form of persistent weapon balancing and only serve as a plat sink for the overzealous spenders who chase meta weapons and then is surprised when the Riven dispositions of said weapons are reduced.

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On 2020-08-08 at 10:25 AM, Aldain said:

Riven mods are a band-aid that are preventing any form of persistent weapon balancing and only serve as a plat sink for the overzealous spenders who chase meta weapons and then is surprised when the Riven dispositions of said weapons are reduced.

Yes, chaging the most used weapon "X" for the most usable weapon "Y" hardly makes any diference, now a day i'm more prone to use rivenless good weapons then those that "need" a riven for work. (even if i still use rivens, loosing it wouldn't make a big diference)

On 2020-08-08 at 10:20 AM, Traumtulpe said:

I have got bad news for you, you have been severely spoiled. The Gram Prime is the BEST heavy blade in the game (by quite a margin). It was considered the BEST melee weapon in the entire game at introduction. It's disposition has always been far too high, and it will continue to drop.

Yes, but i was prepared for that since gram prime release, i just used it as an exemple, my favorite melee is nikana prime, since its riven can't be nerfed and so i won't feel sad with it xD

On 2020-08-06 at 12:30 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

That isn't what DE have said

i'm quite sure they did, i might be wrong though... i read all your post, even if it seens that we are talking too diferently, it isn't really the case. i understand that the riven works is primarily reajusted by usage/populaty, but that is my main complaint about it - IMO the "cons" of it is bigger than the "pros".

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