The Revenant Rework

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Also, can I just point out that Vexx literally just came in here to say “I saw you posted a rework thread, I didn’t read any of it but here’s all my rework threads”, and so far 3 people have found that to be an appropriate thing to do.

[BasKy]

Revenant has never been reworked, so I take it you never liked him? Your best option was to never use it, not change the abilities that you already saw others really like. At this point you expect DE to please you alone.
Changing his kit is a mistake. If you're gonna do that, make a new Warframe.

Try to revisit his current kit. Make something that current Revenant players will like without making him OP. It's not a good idea to take away what others like.

[Teridax68]

18 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Unfortunately I have no idea what else to make his 4. Danse is ok, but it’s just a lazy ability, so this was my way of giving him a 4 that’s significantly more interactive while giving it some more tools to play around with so it’s not just another exalted weapon. Also make it so his 2 benefits the scaling mechanic instead of stopping it in its tracks, that was important to me.

I can agree that in its current form, Danse Macabre is fairly boring and mostly just limits what Revenant can do. How about just making it something that hovers over him and lasers enemies in close proximity? That way, he'd have to actually move around to get its benefits, but would also get to move and shoot normally. For example:

4 - Danse Macabre: Have Revenant's Vomvalyst's orbit above him and each fire a deadly beam downwards, dealing X Tau damage to enemies hit.

18 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If I give the player the ability to control the adaptation that opens the risk of just giving them 100% DR too reliably. I’m also not sure how I want his 2 to work after the initial cast. Should I have it still be castable and keep adding to the shieldings health pool? Should the conversion rate be reduced then? Or should it just have the armor and shield strip and only give the adaptive shielding when it’s not currently active?

I think you could honestly just change the ability to a toggle, e.g. "Become immune to this physical damage type and gain some secondary effect," with stuff like immunity to Impact also giving immunity to knockdowns and staggers, immunity to Slash allowing him to strip armor and shields on hit, immunity to Puncture granting elemental damage resistance, or something similar. That way, you'd be able to become more resistant to damage, and could have associated bonuses, but wouldn't be able to stack total damage immunity, and would have to adapt on the fly.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, BasKy said:

Revenant has never been reworked, so I take it you never liked him? Your best option was to never use it, not change the abilities that you already saw others really like. At this point you expect DE to please you alone.
Changing his kit is a mistake. If you're gonna do that, make a new Warframe.

Try to revisit his current kit. Make something that current Revenant players will like without making him OP. It's not a good idea to take away what others like.

I want him reworked because having vampire abilities on a frame that has absolutely nothing to do with vampires makes absolutely zero sense. Also because his 1-3 suck.

You realize DE has a very long history of removing/nerfing things that players enjoy, right? I like the idea of a frame who creates minions and uses them with all their abilities, but it’s very poorly executed on Revenant and it makes zero thematic sense for an Eidolon Warframe to have 3/4 of the powers he has.

[Mu_Gera]

19 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Mesmer actively prevents you from consistently getting damage for it.

I don't think it does. during the ambulas fight, the giant spaceship laser attack doesn't consume mesmer charges but will still contribute damage to danse.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, cococciolo said:

I don't think it does. during the ambulas fight, the giant spaceship laser attack doesn't consume mesmer charges but will still contribute damage to danse.

That’s 1 example against a unique source of damage.

Mesmer skin puts enemies that hit you asleep. Meaning every enemy that shoots you gives one instance of damage that immediately starts diminishing and cannot provide more because they’re asleep.

[Mu_Gera]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Mesmer skin puts enemies that hit you asleep.

ah thought you meant that danse damage absorption didn't work at all with mesmer. yeah you have a point, definitely one of the antisynergies plaguing revs kit.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

On 2020-08-04 at 3:43 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

A rework can be more than reworking abilities. A lot of Warframe reworks have completely replaced abilities.

As long as Revenants 1-3 remain as they currently are Revenants theme will always be screwed up. Also no amount of tweaking is EVER going to make them good. So the only logical solution is replace them with abilities that are both thematically appropriate and mechanically viable.

You can easily make the same abilities good. You just don't want to. You want your idea in the game. 

And obviously people are going to point out that this is more of a Revenant Replacement than Rework. Traditionally in Warframe, reworks are when the Frame keeps the same basic ideas with only one or two ability replacements if they are outdated. This "rework" is completely different from Revenant now, more different than old and new Wukong, more different than old and new Limbo. This is an overhaul, not a rework. Don't nitpick about the title when the title is wrong please.

If it were my choice, I'd say Adaptation should've been Revenant's Mesmer Skin, and that your idea of Vomvalysts would be a fine overhaul for his first ability. Reave and Danse are okay.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)thefallenloser said:

You can easily make the same abilities good.

No. DE tried that with the massive buffs they gave Revenant after his release. And it resulted in doing absolutely nothing for him. Like it’s genuinely impressive to see a laundry list of improvements be applied to a Warframe and watch them be completely ineffective at improving his performance because his base abilities are that terrible.

The problem is Revenants overall ability direction makes zero sense. Vampire abilities have no place on a frame who’s theme has nothing to do with vampires.

The rework isn’t that different from what his current kit is. It’s still

1. Minion ability, but now thematically correct.

2. Tank ability, but now thematically correct.

3. Debuff ability, but now thematically correct.

4. Damage ability, but now not a boring snooze fest.

In the end I don’t care what the terminology is. The point still stands that Revenant is not properly Eidolon themed, and keeping his 1-3 as they are without only minor changes to them does nothing to solve that issue or make him any better of a frame.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I can agree that in its current form, Danse Macabre is fairly boring and mostly just limits what Revenant can do. How about just making it something that hovers over him and lasers enemies in close proximity? That way, he'd have to actually move around to get its benefits, but would also get to move and shoot normally. For example:

4 - Danse Macabre: Have Revenant's Vomvalyst's orbit above him and each fire a deadly beam downwards, dealing X Tau damage to enemies hit.

I think you could honestly just change the ability to a toggle, e.g. "Become immune to this physical damage type and gain some secondary effect," with stuff like immunity to Impact also giving immunity to knockdowns and staggers, immunity to Slash allowing him to strip armor and shields on hit, immunity to Puncture granting elemental damage resistance, or something similar. That way, you'd be able to become more resistant to damage, and could have associated bonuses, but wouldn't be able to stack total damage immunity, and would have to adapt on the fly.

I have no idea what Tau damage does and can not find any source as to what it does. Also, aren’t you just pitching Mirages 4 with the conclave augment?

Yeah, you’re just making Adaptive Shielding more of a hassle to manage. Which is one of the many things that annoys me about Mesmer skin. You can’t focus on shooting things or using your other abilities, you have to keep focusing on managing that one ability.

[Pizzarugi]

On 2020-08-04 at 11:45 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. 

To clarify: Reworking the frame is reworking the abilities.

This is just simple reasoning. If I change every part of something to something else it isn't that anymore. It's something else. It is no longer a rework at that point, you can call it that all day, but you created a new frame. 

If I replace a couple things, or improve or tweak existing things, it is a different version of the same thing, and thus a rework. There is no difference between "frame rework" or "ability rework". It is the same thing, and yours is not. 

It'd be like "reworking" Limbo by giving him an entirely different kit with nothing resembling the original concept from the previous.

This re-imagined skill kit would be more suitable on another Sentient-like frame, like a proper Sentient-like frame and not something that got corrupted by Eidolon energy. That's still something we need to remember about Revenant, that it was corrupted by the Eidolons and not based on them. For all we know, Revenant was a vampire themed frame (remember that its original codename was Vlad) that had its skills altered to more resemble the colossal Sentients such as Thrall putting Vomvalyst bits on victims' heads instead of outright charming them, or how his armor is pretty much a misty form, and his Reave is sapping the life from his enemies to heal him. The only thing I can see being a complete corruption would be his 4 which got turned into an attempt at being an omni-laser dance (previously it put enemies to sleep).

Overall, the OP is good (I like summons, especially if they have utility like rezzing teammates), but it may be better on different frame.

[Electra-VIIX]

Revenant is one of my favorite frames.  It's one I use very often.  I like it as it is.  It's a frame I'm very comfortable using in a lot of different ways.  I don't want it changed.  I don't even want it reworked.

That being said, you have so many good ideas for a brand new frame.  I hope they consider building a frame and utilize some of your cool ideas.

[Teridax68]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I have no idea what Tau damage does and can not find any source as to what it does. Also, aren’t you just pitching Mirages 4 with the conclave augment?

Tau damage is the damage type Sentient units deal. It has no status effects, and enemies have no resistance to it. As for the similarity to Mirage's augmented 4... I guess? You could always make it distinct by having the Vomvalysts orbit other units as well.

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah, you’re just making Adaptive Shielding more of a hassle to manage. Which is one of the many things that annoys me about Mesmer skin. You can’t focus on shooting things or using your other abilities, you have to keep focusing on managing that one ability.

... why would it be more of a hassle to manage than what you're proposing? I'm merely suggesting a toggle that Revenant would only have to swap according to the situation, and could otherwise set and forget for an entire mission. Meanwhile, your effect is an AoE debuff that also feeds into damage reduction that ramps up over time, yet also heals based on nearby Vomvalysts, and also has to be refreshed in order to maintain the duration. Why did you think it was a good idea to combine Nezha's Warding Halo, Gauss's battery, and the Adaptation mod into a single ability?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

 

This re-imagined skill kit would be more suitable on another Sentient-like frame

Well I don’t think DE wants to make 2 frames with the exact same theme. So best to make the Eidolon frame actually Eidolon themed.

Revenant was codenamed “Vlad” because Rebecca was giving him a complete vampire theme, it wasn’t until Steve saw him and was like “That don’t make sense” that they had to try and jury rig vaguely Eidolon like powers out of the vampire abilities. Trying to claim that Warden was a vampire because Revenants codename was “Vlad” is dumb.

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

 

... why would it be more of a hassle to manage than what you're proposing? I'm merely suggesting a toggle that Revenant would only have to swap according to the situation, and could otherwise set and forget for an entire mission. Meanwhile, your effect is an AoE debuff that also feeds into damage reduction that ramps up over time, yet also heals based on nearby Vomvalysts, and also has to be refreshed in order to maintain the duration. Why did you think it was a good idea to combine Nezha's Warding Halo, Gauss's battery, and the Adaptation mod into a single ability?

Because what I’m proposing is a simple “cast once and you’re good” ability with nothing to make you constantly focus on only maintaining that ability.

I never said anything about the ability having a duration. The 100% DR to damage types has a duration, but the ability itself runs off a health pool like Iron skin or Warding Halo.

The idea seemed practical and thematically correct for an Eidolon frame. And I stand by my claim that it is an infinitely more interesting and reliable skill than Mesmer Skin.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Electra-VIIX said:

Revenant is one of my favorite frames.  It's one I use very often.  I like it as it is.  It's a frame I'm very comfortable using in a lot of different ways.  I don't want it changed.  I don't even want it reworked.

I want to make this very clear. I ha yes Revenant, and my hatred for him far outweighs your liking for him.

So this goes for everyone when I say this. Stop trying to pull this sentimental “But I like the frame, so it shouldn’t get reworked” crap with me because it’s not going to work.

These abilities were specifically designed with Revenant in mind. He is the Eidolon/sentient themed Warframe and 3/4 of his abilities do not represent that. Keeping a Warframes theme broken simply because you like the gameplay style that can literally be applied to a better suited frame is dumb.

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because what I’m proposing is a simple “cast once and you’re good” ability with nothing to make you constantly focus on only maintaining that ability.

But that's simply not true, as the ability would require constant upkeep from the player. You're also massively underplaying the overcomplicated combination of effects, which several more people have pointed out. Merely casting the ability to be useful requires being around enemies, and then there's this ramping mechanic, plus a self-heal component when around Vomvalyst, which makes for a whole lot of moving parts to factor in just to "cast once and you're good".

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I never said anything about the ability having a duration. The 100% DR to damage types has a duration, but the ability itself runs off a health pool like Iron skin or Warding Halo.

So your ability not only has a duration, but still requires upkeep even to its duration-less portion. Again, why have two different gating mechanisms for the same effect?

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The idea seemed practical and thematically correct for an Eidolon frame. And I stand by my claim that it is an infinitely more interesting and reliable skill than Mesmer Skin.

How is Warding Halo even remotely related to Eidolons? How is Gauss's battery even remotely related to Eidolons? Please point to the Eidolon effect where they strip armor and shields, generate a health pool, or damage their own Vomvalysts. While I can agree that Mesmer Skin isn't a particularly thrilling ability, I don't think your proposed replacement is actually that much better, as it's a mess of different mechanics mashed from other frames' abilities, all with little actual relevance to Eidolons.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But that's simply not true, as the ability would require constant upkeep from the player. You're also massively underplaying the overcomplicated combination of effects, which several more people have pointed out. Merely casting the ability to be useful requires being around enemies, and then there's this ramping mechanic, plus a self-heal component when around Vomvalyst, which makes for a whole lot of moving parts to factor in just to "cast once and you're good".

So your ability not only has a duration, but still requires upkeep even to its duration-less portion. Again, why have two different gating mechanisms for the same effect?

How is Warding Halo even remotely related to Eidolons? How is Gauss's battery even remotely related to Eidolons? Please point to the Eidolon effect where they strip armor and shields, generate a health pool, or damage their own Vomvalysts. While I can agree that Mesmer Skin isn't a particularly thrilling ability, I don't think your proposed replacement is actually that much better, as it's a mess of different mechanics mashed from other frames' abilities, all with little actual relevance to Eidolons.

I think you’re massively overthinking this ability. Your first cast of the ability gives you 90% DR and gives that DR a health pool based off the armor and shields stripped from enemies (likely with a multiplier). The adaptation thing happens passively so you literally don’t have to worry about it. Maybe there will be a sound cue when it triggers the 100% DR to a damage type so you can adjust your play style to take advantage of that. And the healing is just a nice synergy that makes sense because the Vomvalysts were used to heal the Teralyst for its final phase. So while there are quite a few mechanics going on, it’s initial function of keeping you alive stays simple and accessible, and doesn’t distract you for using your other abilities more.

Theres no duration for the 90% DR, that’s goes off a health pool. The 100% DR buff goes off a duration. The 100% DR will also prevent that adapted damage type from draining the health pool. But while the ability is ramping up the counter for the 100% DR you always stay at 90% DR.

The armor and shield stripping is in reference to how Eidolons take things to rebuild themselves. I actually toyed with the idea of making the ability be fueled by absorbing crates and lockers and maybe even the terrain itself, but that didn’t feel like a practical idea as it opens questions like “how will that scale? what’s the benefit to eating crates? So I just made it enemy armor and shields as that actually has a practical purpose.

My first idea for Adaptive shielding was an ability where you charge it, it drains energy per second as you charge it, and you build up an over your health bar shields like the Eidolons have, and it would just be Iron skin but with adaptation. You can see the problems with this design, and I honestly find the idea of just charging a shield over your health bar pretty boring. So I took some creative liberties for the final version to still make the ability clearly Eidolon/sentient themed, But have a more reliable design.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I think you’re massively overthinking this ability.

Your ability takes three paragraphs to describe and has about four different subsystems attached to it. I'm not "massively overthinking" it, your ability is massively overwrought.

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Theres no duration for the 90% DR, that’s goes off a health pool. The 100% DR buff goes off a duration. The 100% DR will also prevent that adapted damage type from draining the health pool. But while the ability is ramping up the counter for the 100% DR you always stay at 90% DR.

This in and of itself is needlessly complicated, as it mushes together the mechanics of both Nezha's Warding Halo and Gauss's ramping DR. How is the player supposed to know that the 100% DR turns off the health pool drain? Why is the switch from 90% to 100% DR instant? How is the player meant to track all this?

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The armor and shield stripping is in reference to how Eidolons take things to rebuild themselves.

That's quite a reach. Why not just drain health like the Gantulyst's pulse?

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

My first idea for Adaptive shielding was an ability where you charge it, it drains energy per second as you charge it, and you build up an over your health bar shields like the Eidolons have, and it would just be Iron skin but with adaptation. You can see the problems with this design, and I honestly find the idea of just charging a shield over your health bar pretty boring. So I took some creative liberties for the final version to still make the ability clearly Eidolon/sentient themed, But have a more reliable design.

Okay, but the entire reason you've crusaded on these forums against Revenant all this time has been because DE took "creative liberties" with a frame by making it vaguely Eidolon-related, while delivering on virtually none of the Eidolon flavor. Wouldn't it be kinda weird then to repeat those same mistakes?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

23 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Your ability takes three paragraphs to describe and has about four different subsystems attached to it. I'm not "massively overthinking" it, your ability is massively overwrought.

This in and of itself is needlessly complicated, as it mushes together the mechanics of both Nezha's Warding Halo and Gauss's ramping DR. How is the player supposed to know that the 100% DR turns off the health pool drain? Why is the switch from 90% to 100% DR instant? How is the player meant to track all this?

That's quite a reach. Why not just drain health like the Gantulyst's pulse?

Okay, but the entire reason you've crusaded on these forums against Revenant all this time has been because DE took "creative liberties" with a frame by making it vaguely Eidolon-related, while delivering on virtually none of the Eidolon flavor. Wouldn't it be kinda weird then to repeat those same mistakes?

*shrug* like Vexx said my structure of the rework is awful. And that doesn’t really do justice to the more intricate parts of the kit.

The game will tell the player somewhere. Or it won’t and it’ll just be passed around as general knowledge between the player like some ability mechanics. I mean, do you really want to stand in front of an enemy, build up the 100% DR buff to their damage, and not have it trigger immediately? Like I said the UI thing that shows the heath pool with have an indicator. Likely the different energy types circling around Around the center, and as you take damage the damage type symbol with start rising towards the edge and you’ll know it’s at 100% when it reaches the edge and a sound cue plays. That overall design could probably be fixed up and changed.

Gary doesn’t have a health drain ability. If he did I would know because because someone would’ve brought it up to justify Reave draining health. Also I looked up his abilities on the Wiki. And I’d rather take a reach than blatantly ignore the theme.

They took too far of creative liberties with Revenant to the point where his abilities were a completely different theme than his visual design. I went in with with the mindset of “Make Revenant Eidolon/sentient themed. Make his ability design reflective of theirs. And if their abilities don’t directly translate into a good power, find a design that works better while still maintaining the thematic elements of the Eidolons/Sentients”. Honestly, if you’re going to criticize Adaptive Shielding for not being directly based off a sentient defense, then you might as well criticize Eidolon Wail for not dealing only Magnetic damage.

[Xepthrichros]

On 2020-08-05 at 1:45 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. 

To clarify: Reworking the frame is reworking the abilities.

This is just simple reasoning. If I change every part of something to something else it isn't that anymore. It's something else. It is no longer a rework at that point, you can call it that all day, but you created a new frame. 

If I replace a couple things, or improve or tweak existing things, it is a different version of the same thing, and thus a rework. There is no difference between "frame rework" or "ability rework". It is the same thing, and yours is not. 

And so Ember didn't get a rework. It was a new frame going by the same name. No wonder some of the old WoF Ember mains quit

[Ionshatter]

I would prefer this to be a completely new Warframe, I personally just got Revanant and he is my favorite warframe kit by far.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

*shrug* like Vexx said my structure of the rework is awful. And that doesn’t really do justice to the more intricate parts of the kit.

The game will tell the player somewhere. Or it won’t and it’ll just be passed around as general knowledge between the player like some ability mechanics. I mean, do you really want to stand in front of an enemy, build up the 100% DR buff to their damage, and not have it trigger immediately? Like I said the UI thing that shows the heath pool with have an indicator. Likely the different energy types circling around Around the center, and as you take damage the damage type symbol with start rising towards the edge and you’ll know it’s at 100% when it reaches the edge and a sound cue plays. That overall design could probably be fixed up and changed.

Okay, but all the UI in the world isn't going to make the ability less complicated, is the key issue here.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Gary doesn’t have a health drain ability. If he did I would know because because someone would’ve brought it up to justify Reave draining health. Also I looked up his abilities on the Wiki. And I’d rather take a reach than blatantly ignore the theme.

From the wiki:

"Gantulyst Shields: After a Summoning Scream or a Regenerating Scream The Gantulyst deploys a large orange dome covering the area around it, which blocks enemy fire coming from outside the dome. The dome moves with the Gantulyst, who acts as its center, forcing Tenno to get much closer to the Eidolon in order to damage it. Additionally, the dome emits pulses of energy that sap the health of anything outside it in a wide radius (300m). The lures are extremely vulnerable to those pulses."

Also, the effect is a reach because it doesn't really get to the theme. With that amount of reaching, one could similarly justify Revenant's current kit, and you and I both know how well that holds up in practice.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

They took too far of creative liberties with Revenant to the point where his abilities were a completely different theme than his visual design. I went in with with the mindset of “Make Revenant Eidolon/sentient themed. Make his ability design reflective of theirs. And if their abilities don’t directly translate into a good power, find a design that works better while still maintaining the thematic elements of the Eidolons/Sentients”. Honestly, if you’re going to criticize Adaptive Shielding for not being directly based off a sentient defense, then you might as well criticize Eidolon Wail for not dealing only Magnetic damage.

I mean sure, why not criticize that too. My point is that some of the abilities you're proposing have serious inherent problems in addition to only flimsy thematic justification, which given the criticism of Revenant brings us back to square one. This is why I'm suggesting alternatives, because while I think it can be fine to have a degree of "creative liberty", that liberty ought to enable a better-structured kit.

[Hikariwatashi]

His lack of vision and not wanting to see other opinions is still there. 

 

Rev has one of the most flowing kits you have in WF. 

2, free 1, 3, sweep room with 4 if needed. I still want to see how Revs kit is useless cuz even in corpus Arbi any Inaros dies before I even take damage at all. 

95% of my Rev missions ends with 0% taken cuz MS is the strongest defensive WF skill to self protect a frame. 

 

And whatever you made up is complete utter bullS#&$, cuz Rev AINT an Eidolon Frame. 

He is an Vampire by DEFAULT that got corrupted by a EIDOLON. Which means that alot of his kit will be based of a Vampire. Learn his history and dont even dare to suggest something cuz you literally have 0% clue what you talk about bcs you never played Rev which explains the bullS#&$ you say the whole time. 

 

Rev is not even close to needin a whole revamp. Hydroid, Nekros and Nyx and even Excal have it more needed. 

 

With those ideas rather suggest making a new frame instead of ruining Rev for 99% of the playerbase. 

For a real Sentient themed frame, these abilities sound good. But for Rev they suck ass compared to his kit rn. 

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

23 hours ago, Hikariwatashi said:

He is an Vampire by DEFAULT that got corrupted by a EIDOLON.

This is actually genius in hindsight. Can't believe I've never thought of this. I'll never look at Revenant the same way again.

---

Imagine ranting about Revenant for months on end and then including an Exalted Weapon as his ultimate in your rework concept