Marked for Death is worthless now

[CopperBezel]

14 minutes ago, 0asu said:

Don't get your hopes up

The bandaid has already been ripped off and they aren't going to reapply it to be ripped off again at a later point

I couldn't claim that they're my hopes in that I really have zero investment here. I genuinely don't know whether M4D is worse as a finisher nuke or a dead offering in the Helminth. What I can say is that I remember this cycle with AoE weapons getting a universal linear falloff to nothing when self-damage was removed, followed by most of them getting rolled back up to 50% or more. So I feel like the odds are decent that it won't remain comically worthless, even if it's still something I'd never use as it's always been, and also no longer supports those platform-clearing Simulacrum builds.

[dEjAvU5566]

Remove the mod double dip and ability to crit at aoe attack are already enough for their “intended behavior”

Cap the damage % AND aoe capped with marked enemy health is total bs.

I just wanna see DE doing streaming using nerfed M4D in steel path and see how this meets their intention.

[Raikh]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb dEjAvU5566:

I just wanna see DE doing streaming using nerfed M4D in steel path and see how this meets their intention.

Doesn't even matter if its Steel Path or not. You can't even reliably kill level 1 enemies with it due to it not counting overkill damage. Thats the ultimate joke behind the change.

 

[CopperBezel]

I just don't understand why it's exclusively applied to your next hit. If anything, and especially if it's based on enemy health and meant to be cast on heavies to clear their lackeys when they die, it should just be a persistent effect on that enemy with a duration, whether released per hit or all at death. Like, you know, the syndicate augments, gas and electric status effects, Breach Surge, and literally everything else that already does this.

Hell, why's it even called Marked for Death when death doesn't in fact trigger anything?

[Tesseract7777]

3 hours ago, dEjAvU5566 said:

Remove the mod double dip and ability to crit at aoe attack are already enough for their “intended behavior”

Cap the damage % AND aoe capped with marked enemy health is total bs.

I just wanna see DE doing streaming using nerfed M4D in steel path and see how this meets their intention.

Not working as intended is such a cop out, when they usually don't even seem to know what they intended in the first place. 

If they didn't intend to make it a mini nuke, then they seriously do have a concerning lack of understanding about their own game mechanics.

I am literally gobsmacked by the implication in the update that they didn't expect Ash players to abuse this in place of BS, they didn't even see that part coming... that's what really concerns me. To players it was obvious anyone with finisher or finisher multipliers would be abusing this (like Excal for example), but to DE staff, it was not only not obvious, it was not expected at all. I am actually wondering if they should hire some player consultants who sign NDA's to help them suss this stuff out in advance, because I could have told them even without the double dipping damage, that frames like Ash would literally be removing their ults for it. I sure as hell didn't need a bunch of play statistics first to discover that fact. 

[CopperBezel]

Don't forget the infinite combo on the Xoris no one realized would be permanent Whipclaw stack for Khora. This does indeed seem to be an ongoing problem with not having someone whose job it is to break things. 

[Tesseract7777]

3 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Don't forget the infinite combo on the Xoris no one realized would be permanent Whipclaw stack for Khora. This does indeed seem to be an ongoing problem with not having someone whose job it is to break things. 

Yeah... another thing we didn't need youtubers or a bunch of player stats to tell us. Anyone who plays seriously on any kind of regular basis could have told them it was a bad idea from the start. 

DE could literally have a council of just a handful of actual players who signed super serious hushed NDA's, they wouldn't even have to playtest, just look at the stuff being proposed and tell DE "Hey, this is going to break your game, because "x reason" , don't do this", and they can be like "oh, okay, we didn't see that, thanks". 

And this stuff wouldn't happen. 

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 2 minutes, Tesseract7777 a dit :

Yeah... another thing we didn't need youtubers or a bunch of player stats to tell us. Anyone who plays seriously on any kind of regular basis could have told them it was a bad idea from the start. 

DE could literally have a council of just a handful of actual players who signed super serious hushed NDA's, they wouldn't even have to playtest, just look at the stuff being proposed and tell DE "Hey, this is going to break your game, because "x reason" , don't do this", and they can be like "oh, okay, we didn't see that, thanks". 

And this stuff wouldn't happen. 

The funniest thing about the Xoris nerf, is the Xoris was still drastically inferior to a stat stick Jaw Sword with a riven on it. Because Rivens are allowed to affect warframe abilities for some reason? Stat Stick Jaw Sword still functions perfectly fine though.

[CopperBezel]

It's not that "rivens affect warframe abilities", it's that all of three abilities in the game have stats drawn from melee modifiers, and in one of those cases that means something. Rivens are just one of the kinds of melee mods that there are, and the ability doesn't care what modes are installed, it just dutifully applies the numbers it's given to the stats that exist. There's nothing to penalize the riven in question, of course, because the riven is still on the statstick, not on some special invisible weapon, and abilities don't have separate riven dispositions like variant weapons do regardless. Those split dispositions were themselves introduced long after Khora's Whipclaw was, which was itself around the time that nearly every other statstick ability had been converted over to its own Exalted build because this S#&$ was stupid even then. 

And anyway I prefer the kama, .07 higher disposition and vaguely matches Khora's Slash blades and whip handle. X ]

But yeah, seriously do not even try to hint that nerfing the Xoris was a bad idea, and certainly not on the basis that two stupids make a smart. People were using the Xoris because it meant not having to spend energy or seek out enemies every few seconds to maintain a combo stack. They had the choice to triple their damage with a riven instead, and chose not to, because they derived more benefit from the Xoris regardless of your preferred playstyle or mine. This is the kind of tradeoff you expect in a build and would be exactly like the choice we have between putting Bodycount or another damage mod on a given weapon, if we imagine a world where the Xoris and the riven in question weren't an utterly gamebreaking choice between an infinite combo duration mod and a mod that might mean 3x damage. 

Whipclaw (and the other two melee-modified warframe abilities not worth mention) does get a special damage multiplier based on combo count that no other ability or melee weapon gets, independent of the weapon itself, but that one's intentional and just part of the ability. 

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 3 minutes, CopperBezel a dit :

It's not that "rivens affect warframe abilities", it's that all of three abilities in the game have stats drawn from melee modifiers, and in one of those cases that means something. Rivens are just one of the kinds of melee mods that there are, and the ability doesn't care what modes are installed, it just dutifully applies the numbers it's given to the stats that exist. There's nothing to penalize the riven in question, of course, because the riven is still on the statstick, not on some special invisible weapon, and abilities don't have separate riven dispositions like variant weapons do regardless. Those split dispositions were themselves introduced long after Khora's Whipclaw was, which was itself around the time that nearly every other statstick ability had been converted over to its own Exalted build because this S#&$ was stupid even then. 

And anyway I prefer the kama, .07 higher disposition and vaguely matches Khora's Slash blades and whip handle. X ]

But yeah, seriously do not even try to hint that nerfing the Xoris was a bad idea, and certainly not on the basis that two stupids make a smart. People were using the Xoris because it meant not having to spend energy or seek out enemies every few seconds to maintain a combo stack. They had the choice to triple their damage with a riven instead, and chose not to, because they derived more benefit from the Xoris regardless of your preferred playstyle or mine. This is the kind of tradeoff you expect in a build and would be exactly like the choice we have between putting Bodycount or another damage mod on a given weapon, if we imagine a world where the Xoris and the riven in question weren't an utterly gamebreaking choice between an infinite combo duration mod and a mod that might mean 3x damage. 

Whipclaw (and the other two melee-modified warframe abilities not worth mention) does get a special damage multiplier based on combo count that no other ability or melee weapon gets, independent of the weapon itself, but that one's intentional and just part of the ability. 

Just using Naramon, or in the case of Khora just farming in one spot during survivals with any combo duration, you'll stay topped off pretty well. Xoris was almost entirely quality of life and easier to use than alternatives. Jaw Sword specifically is the most notable stat stick because of Blade of Truth and the hilarious riven disposition.

That said, pretending Atlas isn't worth mentioning with access to Helminth is laughable and Gara has always been a good all-rounder frame, she's just competing with Khora who has access to additional loot drops.

Jaw Sword/Mire with rivens always drastically out performed the Xoris, the Xoris was just way, way easier to use and the important part. Completely free to build. Not hitting stat stick rivens but gutting the Xoris seems like an underhanded monetary move to me since people will buy plat for stacked rivens.

With that though I want to make it clear I think both would be fine with existing since players put time and effort into building them, and with a greater evil than the Xoris existing and continuing to exist. It seemed silly to hit it.

[CopperBezel]

Wow, there's a lot of rabbit trails I could follow there. I will follow up on your second paragraph to point out that nowhere did I say anything about the viability of Atlas and Gara as frames, and say again that the Jaw Sword does not in fact have the highest riven disposition, so like, maybe you meant that the option of the augment makes up for the minuscule difference in dispos between it and the actual highest dispo weapons like the Kama and Dual Heat Swords? Not sure why anyone would consider the Mire, with a middling dispo and a bad augment, but maybe it's one of those things people started using before there were better options. Trends be trends. 

But yeah, sorry, oopsie-daisy invalidating a whole mechanic through an unintended interaction was definitely not something DE should have left in the game. It's exactly the same kind of trash that stat sticks are, but stat sticks have been around long enough that DE would be declaring Reddit war to break them. At the other extreme, if DE were just in it for the grofit with no concern for design or good public image, they would have just given the Xoris a higher dispo so people would be throwing more money at the screen for different rivens. 

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 11 minutes, CopperBezel a dit :

Wow, there's a lot of rabbit trails I could follow there. I will follow up on your second paragraph to point out that nowhere did I say anything about the viability of Atlas and Gara as frames, and say again that the Jaw Sword does not in fact have the highest riven disposition, so like, maybe you meant that the option of the augment makes up for the minuscule difference in dispos between it and the actual highest dispo weapons like the Kama and Dual Heat Swords? Not sure why anyone would consider the Mire, with a middling dispo and a bad augment, but maybe it's one of those things people started using before there were better options. Trends be trends. 

But yeah, sorry, oopsie-daisy invalidating a whole mechanic through an unintended interaction was definitely not something DE should have left in the game. It's exactly the same kind of trash that stat sticks are, but stat sticks have been around long enough that DE would be declaring Reddit war to break them. At the other extreme, if DE were just in it for the grofit with no concern for design or good public image, they would have just given the Xoris a higher dispo so people would be throwing more money at the screen for different rivens. 

As far as the Mire goes I never looked into it since I preferred the Jaw Sword. I'd imagine something with viral damage and the guaranteed blight status procs but again, nothing I ever invested research in. The Jaw sword however is just for better stats, 100% more melee damage for the augment definitely covers the minuscule difference the 0.04/0.07 dispo difference of the other rivens.

But as far as the Xoris goes, it's just very lazy Naramon and let's you pick another school if you want something like Zenurik. Maxed Power Spike makes it near impossible to drop combo with whipclaw and makes it very easy to just whap something with Atlas and go back to punching. I never played much Gara so I can't speak confidently for this frame.

 

I just really don't see where the Xoris was so powerful that it now has negative synergy with these abilities when power spike exist and does the same thing with a minimal amount of extra effort added but comes with astronomically better stats. But at this point I'm also open to just agree to disagree since I don't think either of us are convincing the other.

[(PSN)psycofang]

14 hours ago, NineteenLettersLong said:

RIP 140,000 Kuva invested into my finisher Balla dagger. 

I dont even know why you did that thinking it would slide. DE has a history of knee jerk nerfing things the community reacts to.

 

Remember pre nerf Nidus? Wasnt even bad, he was a victim of being new.

[CopperBezel]

54 minutes ago, NineteenLettersLong said:

I just really don't see where the Xoris was so powerful that it now has negative synergy with these abilities when power spike exist and does the same thing with a minimal amount of extra effort added but comes with astronomically better stats. But at this point I'm also open to just agree to disagree since I don't think either of us are convincing the other.

Yeah, totally fair. And I've probably been sloppy referring to it as "game breaking" - even I don't think it was wildly overpowered, so much as a dumb loophole that was rightly closed. 

[KlaussKlauss]

3 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Don't forget the infinite combo on the Xoris no one realized would be permanent Whipclaw stack for Khora. This does indeed seem to be an ongoing problem with not having someone whose job it is to break things. 

What do you mean? I get 3-4 bugs every time I enter the game. I think the guy who's job it is to break things is on a strict diet of steroids and cocaine. When DE designed Railjack that guy warped the f*king space-time around him and worked like a gazillion years to make sure everything is good an broken.  That guy broke his back braking this game for you and you dare insinuate he isn't doing his job. 

Alright, back on topic. Helminth wasn't intended to have fun nuke abilities. It was intended to be a dead-weight hype-train resource sink. It shall take it's place alongside Railjack, The Conclave and other systems I can't even be bothered remembering. 

[Raikh]

The Xoris interaction fix just seems rather stupid to me to this day. Naramon in effect does the same thing, without depriving you of a riven. This popularity based "balancing" approach is one of the most self-destructive tuning avenues I've ever seen.

One of the next best ways to self-destruct is nerfing things on top of fixing bugs that cause overperformance like with MfD. Instead of fixing double dipping and see how it goes, they just had to make sure MfD can't be used properly to kill things.

There are technically still some ways to make MfD kill things, but the list of things you have to bring to make it work just gets longer and given its low base range and LoS requirements I might as well get Larva/Ensnare and swing/fire into the stacked mobs. The only single target thing still working is probs rapier finishers since those cause a bleed proc that is also spread which should cover for the remaining % health but given the build requirements to make MfD remotely worth pressing its just not worth the effort. MfD diversified the power ceiling, it didn't increase it. So I just play something else that does the same job and not bother with it anymore.

[(PSN)LukCPL]

The 'mark for death tickling' change just shows how little DE respects players time and investment into their product. Great to have tons of free beta testers  😈

[CopperBezel]

3 hours ago, Raikh said:

The Xoris interaction fix just seems rather stupid to me to this day. Naramon in effect does the same thing, without depriving you of a riven. This popularity based "balancing" approach is one of the most self-destructive tuning avenues I've ever seen.

Zenurik is still far and away the most popular focus school, and Khora certainly benefits from being able to generate energy faster than she can spend it continuously casting Whipclaw. Which I don't have to explain, obviously, because you know the ground you're building your case on, and even getting into these balance minutiae is accepting your wrong premise that there's some kind of unstated contract at the time of release of any feature that having this option you've been presented with is your right, as soon as the code is live. At least the Xoris got that far, considering that people had the same reaction to "nerfed" Helminth abilities on the basis of changes between two dev workshop posts before anything was live at all. 

And I get that through those balance considerations, you're trying to demonstrate that people weren't really getting something for free with the Xoris, that it could have been released with this intention and a person could make a defensible case for it as an element of the game's design, but feeling salty about the removal of an unintended interaction, one that you wouldn't need to defend if you didn't feel it could be situationally beneficial to someone somewhere, is layers of through the looking glass here. Again, you have to start from the core belief that any nerf is a moral transgression against players to have twisted yourself into this pretzel. No tuning of any kind is possible if we accept your implicit premises. This entire attitude is just deliberately unreasonable and toxic. 

And not all of that is something you're saying directly in your particular post here, but it's the pattern that presents itself without variation with each and every change DE makes to any mechanic or piece of gear in the game. 

If you want to talk about self-destructive behavior, try and fix the community first. When it's a given that there will always be this adversarial interaction over every detail on the side of the players, there's not a lot DE can do to filter the signal out of the noise. There's not a lot DE can do to constructively engage with that. 

[Raikh]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

your wrong premise that there's some kind of unstated contract at the time of release of any feature that having this option you've been presented with is your right

Really nice of you to decide my premises for me. How about you argue against what I actually state instead of building a strawman to throw yourself against.

vor 28 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

And I get that through those balance considerations, you're trying to demonstrate that people weren't really getting something for free with the Xoris,

I haven't tried to demonstrate anything like that.

vor 30 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

And not all of that is something you're saying directly in your particular post here, but it's the pattern that presents itself without variation with each and every change DE makes to any mechanic or piece of gear in the game.

So because other people have argued what you are arguing against its automatically what I intended when I'm against these kinds of nerfs. Sorry to disappoint you, but you are off the mark.

vor 33 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

If you want to talk about self-destructive behavior, try and fix the community first. When it's a given that there will always be this adversarial interaction over every detail on the side of the players, there's not a lot DE can do to filter the signal out of the noise. There's not a lot DE can do to constructively engage with that. 

The community is always a reflection of the game state. The whole negativity started when DE stopped doing content for the established community and instead went after personal ambitions they didn't manage to meet and started primarily targetting new players with the more regular content releases. And there is still a good amount of very constructive feedback that explains why the current state is highly undesirable for the community, but such feedback is going unanswered.

Balancing is necessary in any game. Balancing based on popularity over power is however an immeasurably terrible way to do that. Because you precisely nerf what people like instead of what is too powerful. And power and popularity correlate, power doesn't necessarily cause excessive popularity. The most popular thing is not necessarily the most OP thing.

Not to mention that nerfs like the Xoris and MfD are a showcase of how shortsighted DE is with their additions. If a player takes one look at an ability and immediately finds the ways of using this ability that they were ultimately nerfed for, then you just did a horrible job as a developer. These aren't some outside of the box thinking 300 IQ hidden exploits. These are synergies in plain sight.
MfD being bugged and double dipping on mods in particular was absolutely fine to be fixed, because that was quite obviously a bug. However nerfing it twice on top of that is just incredibly questionable.

No player wants to assume that every interaction they find was unintentional and will be taken away. That has nothing to do with hating nerfs, or any sort of right to anything.

 

[Tsoe]

IT s so simple to cap it , at 150% of ennemie hp

tested in symulacrum with armored ennemies , they dont even take damage with headshoot amalgam dayku

[Rosaria]

30 minutes ago, Tsoe said:

IT s so simple to cap it , at 150% of ennemie hp

tested in symulacrum with armored ennemies , they dont even take damage with headshoot amalgam dayku

Alternatively they could just not cap it at all because it wasn't a problem at all before compared to MANY builds in the game, if not most of them. Hell, it wasn't even an issue compared to raw melee at half combo.

[CopperBezel]

16 hours ago, Raikh said:

I haven't tried to demonstrate anything like that. [Snip] So because other people have argued what you are arguing against its automatically what I intended when I'm against these kinds of nerfs. Sorry to disappoint you, but you are off the mark.

I do apologize then. You're not part of that problem and didn't deserve the vitriol.

16 hours ago, Raikh said:

The community is always a reflection of the game state. The whole negativity started when DE stopped doing content for the established community and instead went after personal ambitions they didn't manage to meet and started primarily targetting new players with the more regular content releases. And there is still a good amount of very constructive feedback that explains why the current state is highly undesirable for the community, but such feedback is going unanswered.

Balancing is necessary in any game. Balancing based on popularity over power is however an immeasurably terrible way to do that. Because you precisely nerf what people like instead of what is too powerful. And power and popularity correlate, power doesn't necessarily cause excessive popularity. The most popular thing is not necessarily the most OP thing.

Not to mention that nerfs like the Xoris and MfD are a showcase of how shortsighted DE is with their additions. If a player takes one look at an ability and immediately finds the ways of using this ability that they were ultimately nerfed for, then you just did a horrible job as a developer. These aren't some outside of the box thinking 300 IQ hidden exploits. These are synergies in plain sight.

MfD being bugged and double dipping on mods in particular was absolutely fine to be fixed, because that was quite obviously a bug. However nerfing it twice on top of that is just incredibly questionable.

No player wants to assume that every interaction they find was unintentional and will be taken away. That has nothing to do with hating nerfs, or any sort of right to anything.

I agree with most of that. MfD and the Xoris involved oversights that should have been obvious, and this is a game that explicitly encourages us to go and find those kinds of synergies and figure out what works as part of the fun of the game. I'm less convinced on the "established community" vs. "new players" front, because first, that's a balance that's always going to have to be weighed and I just really don't feel that it's in an unfair place right now, and second, I don't think big experiments like Railjack are responsible for things like M4D and the Xoris and so on happening - I just don't see a direct relationship between those. I do think that Railjack on launch and Plains of Eidolon on launch looked like very similar trainwrecks, and PoE paid off in the form of actually good content in the Vallis and Deimos, which tells me that big experiments can be to the benefit of established players and are the way the game actually gets bigger, more varied, and more interesting. 

The community doesn't get up in arms until it involves a nerf on the latest meta trash. And if that took the form of "DE please test your game", and all of those people were lining up to say that DE playing with the Helminth system and deciding that Roar needed stepping down before release, you know, testing their game and deciding not to release something they considered broken, I could respect that. But it doesn't, and I can't. 

If we want to complain about the fact that the game is constantly in a state of open beta and full of locked doors marked "content coming soon", I'm all there for it, but the "muh nurfs" crowd has got to stop busting in pretending they're talking about that too and dominating the conversation when they're really just salty about the plat and polarizations they paid on a weapon that got nerfed. (And we can talk about what DE does to encourage those people to get invested in the wrong things in the first place, too, and what DE could do to reduce that trend, but it's not going to be "enable them", it's going to be "stop making systems that create them in the first place.")

For my part, I consider it a defining aspect of my being an established player, and not a new player, that when a new thing comes down the pipleine that I can see a handy way to break, I'm obviously going to do it because it's fun to find out what I can make happen, but I expect it probably won't last. That doesn't mean the state of the game is good, it just means that I've been here long enough to know where to find the fun. Ideally, DE should be ahead of that curve, not trailing it, and not caught unawares when players figure out the tricks. 

[Raikh]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

I'm less convinced on the "established community" vs. "new players" front,

The issue I see is that Warframe has no accessible content thats designed around players having fully built frames and weapons. You have to spend a considerable time in even Steel Path endless modes to meet enemies that might require some effort to kill. Long term players get new stuff to grind but never really challenges where their experience and power is asked and from what I've seen and also felt myself this leads to an unsatisfactory experience the longer it goes on.
The game needs new players, sure and I don't mind them getting content, even though I don't think the way it has been done in recent years is a particularly good experience for these players. Its just that trying to do both at the same time has a high probability of disappointing both.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

The community doesn't get up in arms until it involves a nerf on the latest meta trash.

Because DE nerfs based on popularity and way too often disregards the actual power implications. And if you publicly execute the crowd favorite primarily just because its the crowd favorite, I don't think you can expect anything but outrage. Most of these nerfs have targeted stuff that was handy and easy or just flashy. Which is also a syndrome caused by the lack of challenging enemies for long term players because the smoothest ride wins the day when you have overkill values magnitudes higher than enemy hp. The pre-emptive nerfs for Helminth for instance weren't power related, they were trying to curb the popularity of the affected choices and that is a very ugly way to do things. I'm all for nerfs when things are too strong and are warping or breaking the game, but popularity based nerfs are basically developer toxicity.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

If we want to complain about the fact that the game is constantly in a state of open beta and full of locked doors marked "content coming soon", I'm all there for it

Quite ironically the bugs and more stuff soon tm is not among my primary issues. Its more that I fail to care about the content releases themselves in the first place. Places like Deimos have me more occupied with mini games than the action gameplay that I'm here for. I don't mind a mining session from time to time but the mini games are such a big part of Deimos that I just have no motivation visiting the place. Not because I hate the stuff, it just bores me so much that I'd rather not play at all.
Railjack is like the pre-alpha of a different game. It can be fun, sure, but at the end of the day its not what I play Warframe for. I would've been sold on the idea that it is a grand expansion that also transforms the core gameplay experience as they initially sold it, but I couldn't care less about what it is right now and find the idea of it taking even more development resources away from what could improve and expand the core gameplay I enjoy quite harrowing.

Every piece of content being an open construction site for months or years only becomes in so much a problem for me, when I'm not even looking forward to the finished product or don't see it ever being finished at all. Sadly I see both being a trend, too.

[CopperBezel]

49 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Because DE nerfs based on popularity and way too often disregards the actual power implications. And if you publicly execute the crowd favorite primarily just because its the crowd favorite, I don't think you can expect anything but outrage. Most of these nerfs have targeted stuff that was handy and easy or just flashy. Which is also a syndrome caused by the lack of challenging enemies for long term players because the smoothest ride wins the day when you have overkill values magnitudes higher than enemy hp. The pre-emptive nerfs for Helminth for instance weren't power related, they were trying to curb the popularity of the affected choices and that is a very ugly way to do things. I'm all for nerfs when things are too strong and are warping or breaking the game, but popularity based nerfs are basically developer toxicity.

This is where you're falling into the tropes of all those people we've established you don't agree with or represent. Like, even calling the changed abilities in the Helminth "nerfs", "preemptive" or otherwise, is based on a fiction - you can't nerf a thing that doesn't yet exist. And power and popularity are related values that both have effects on the game. In the case of the Helminth ability changes, DE was extremely explicitly clear in saying that there were six abilities they found were the overwhelming choices (popularity) in their own testing, which they took as a metric of their effectiveness (power) making them always the best options. This obviously had nothing to do with popularity among players, since the features didn't exist yet for any of said players. But when things are massively popular, and damn near everyone in a given pub is using a Catchmoon and a Bramma, something is definitely wrong and there's an immediate problem of variety here. The things that see this kind of popularity are the easy cheese one-fits-all solutions rather than anything uniquely and brokenly powerful, but - yeah, those kinda shouldn't exist either. 

So you can look at some meta trash weapon and say, "well why would you do that when you can invest X amount of grind and use Y wildly specific build instead and do the same thing but with slightly better numbers", and, I mean ... sure, you're not wrong, the person using the easy, flashy option is a noob. But it manifestly doesn't make the game better to give them that crutch. And if you're simultaneously looking at the limited abilities in the Helminth and saying DE is dumb for tuning things down before release to avoid giving people one, then, yeah, I'm sorry, none of this is on DE at this point, and it sure is a convenient coincidence that you agree with all of those salty noobs on every particular individual issue even if your reasons are totally different and not a house of cards of entitlement. 

1 hour ago, Raikh said:

The issue I see is that Warframe has no accessible content thats designed around players having fully built frames and weapons. You have to spend a considerable time in even Steel Path endless modes to meet enemies that might require some effort to kill. Long term players get new stuff to grind but never really challenges where their experience and power is asked and from what I've seen and also felt myself this leads to an unsatisfactory experience the longer it goes on.

SP is just the same game with bigger numbers though. Like, I really appreciate having it, especially in the rare case I need to go farm a particular resource and can go somewhere to do it where my weapons aren't ridiculous overkill and I even get a resource drop chance boost as a bonus. The star chart is playable again. But let's not kid ourselves here, the only challenge involved is being issued at, and met by, the numbers on our guns. Otherwise, everything is mechanically indistinguishable from level 60 enemies up except eHP numbers. So I go to Telesto when I need to test a new gun, but I go to Mot when I want to actually play around, because the enemy damage modifiers on the node and the relative variety of the Orokin enemies make a bigger difference than 50 levels would. 

And that's, you know, setting aside that I sure do like how my fully optimized Nova plays and main her for a reason, and there sure isn't a single challenge in the game that my equally optimized Khora isn't significantly better at. 

All of that with the caveat, I suppose, that I'm clearly unqualified to comment on SP as a real player, because I have yet to defeat the Ropalolyst or Zealot Prelate. My attempts on the Ropalolyst universally end to Conculyst oneshots, while the ZP can reliably count on me to simply die of boredom a phase or two in. Nothing quite so satisfying as content where those fully built up weapons are literally running out of ammunition not so much damaging the enemy in question as faintly suggesting they might consider taking some damage sometime. (I like that in the case of the *lysts it's not even to do with their adaptation mechanic, just armor and status immunity.)

Chasing power as defined by big numbers in Warframe is always going to be unsatisfying. It's just not something this game is good at for players of any level. 

[Raikh]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

This is where you're falling into the tropes of all those people we've established you don't agree with or represent. Like, even calling the changed abilities in the Helminth "nerfs", "preemptive" or otherwise, is based on a fiction - you can't nerf a thing that doesn't yet exist.

The ability isn't fiction it exists. Its not a brand new thing just because you put it on a different Warframe. I'm also not annoyed that abilities are nerfed, I'm annoyed because of the reason they are nerfed.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

DE was extremely explicitly clear in saying that there were six abilities they found were the overwhelming choices (popularity) in their own testing, which they took as a metric of their effectiveness (power) making them always the best options. This obviously had nothing to do with popularity among players, since the features didn't exist yet for any of said players. But when things are massively popular,

Power and popularity merely correlate, one doesn't causate the other. Taking popularity as proof of power is in the vast majority of cases a showcase of incompetence. If a choice is overwhelmingly popular, be that an ability, a weapon or a Warframe then you have to ask yourself first why it is so popular and where things went wrong. And especially given how these singular overwhelmingly popular things are appearing on repeat DE has clearly not gone to any lengths to investigate what exactly causes that popularity and learn from that. Accidents happen and it is good to correct those. But its all meaningless if you commit the same mistakes over and over again and just use the same misguided ineffective band-aid over and over without ever coming to understand the issue.

vor 19 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

and it sure is a convenient coincidence that you agree with all of those salty noobs on every particular individual issue even if your reasons are totally different and not a house of cards of entitlement. 

I can hardly be entitled when most of these nerfs don't even affect me. I don't even have Roar subsumed and have currently none of the nerfed Helminth abilities in use. I never used Xoris past the quest that required it. I never used Kuva Bramma and only used Catchmoon sparsely as I mostly play melee anyway. I'm not enraged at having my toys taken away, I'm baffled by the sheer incompetence being displayed. I'd rather not have the game self-destruct due to the community being actively, even if unintentionally, antagonized because DE didn't take their lessons.

I would actually support much more radical balance changes if the according environment would then be properly aligned with it, but as it is that is not only unlikely but probably even impossible.

vor 29 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

SP is just the same game with bigger numbers though.

Numbers matter. If I could fight enemies that rewarded me having optimized my builds and use my tools then my experience would be vastly better. Just having access to higher numbers isn't a solution to everything but it is vastly better than most of the things DE have added in the last 4-5 years to keep my attention. Warframe right now is gods swatting flies. Steel Path is a great addition just for the reason that it offers higher numbers to fight. It however is vastly behind the power curve. It might've been just right about 4-5 years ago. I don't like however that loot tables haven't been adjusted at all. It should ideally raise the bar and award accordingly without just improving specific resource farms.

vor 36 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

Chasing power as defined by big numbers in Warframe is always going to be unsatisfying. It's just not something this game is good at for players of any level. 

My most thrilling experiences with Warframe were when I was pretty new and found myself confronted with events or situations where I ran into trouble. For one it made me want to chase power so I could climb higher reaches and second it felt rewarding to find solutions or having feedback on the effectivity of my build decisions. I haven't seen any content since then that satisified that itch, that gave any meaning to having all that power. At best there is content that invalidates most of that power and tries to pose a challenge by tying both of your arms behind your back, which isn't fulfilling in the slightest.