Marked for Death is worthless now

[NineteenLettersLong]

à l’instant, SolitaryMan7 a dit :

Aren't those all old abilities you list fixed damage numbers, not dependent on enemy total health, unlike Marked for Death?

The point being dependent on enemy health makes it a garbage ability. Also after testing in the simulacrum its current HP, not even max HP. If you kill with marked for death, and then mark an enemy damaged by the previous mark you will keep doing smaller and smaller amounts of damage. This ability literally cannot kill if you keep attacking enemies in the same initial group.

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 1 minute, Blade_Wolf_16 a dit :

True, those abilities have decent CC properties, but I was not exclusively talking about those. I was also considering others like Radial Javelin, Tempest Barrage, Miasma, Rumblers, Prism, etc. 

All of these aside Miasma, are also considered horrible abilities. Miasma makes up for it in giving guaranteed Viral damage however, drastically buffing the damage of whatever hits enemies next.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 2 minutes, NineteenLettersLong a dit :

All of these aside Miasma, are also considered horrible abilities. 

And yet you complain that an ability that costs 50 energy can deal up to 75% of enemies' HP with the right combo, no matter the level. The fact that it's still extremely better than most of those should be a good sign that Marked for Death is still decent and in no way "worthless".

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 1 minute, Blade_Wolf_16 a dit :

And yet you complain that an ability that costs 50 energy can deal up to 75% of enemies' HP with the right combo, no matter the level. The fact that it's still extremely better than most of those should be a good sign that Marked for Death is still decent and in no way "worthless".

Because of armor it will never do 75% to grineer, it is actually worthless on high level grineer because of this, and worthless on low level grineer because you could just do anything else. The ability itself does not instantly spread damage, you have to then use another ability to kill the enemy, and in most cases do a finisher animation. This is a lot of time investment, and a lot more than just 50 energy then using a normal nuke skill that hits a wider area, can ignore line of sight, and is much faster.

In short Marked for Death is useless, requires resources to put on a frame, and is all around garbage. Saying it's better than other useless abilities does not mean it itself isn't useless.

[Zeclem]

4 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

And yet you complain that an ability that costs 50 energy can deal up to 75% of enemies' HP with the right combo, no matter the level. The fact that it's still extremely better than most of those should be a good sign that Marked for Death is still decent and in no way "worthless".

being better than garbage does not make you ungarbage.

mfd is very much garbage.

[CuChulainnWD]

Marked for Death does not work as labeled or advertised, hence forth it is now renamed Marked for Tickles.

[Raikh]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Blade_Wolf_16:

And yet you complain that an ability that costs 50 energy can deal up to 75% of enemies' HP with the right combo, no matter the level. The fact that it's still extremely better than most of those should be a good sign that Marked for Death is still decent and in no way "worthless".

The abilities in question are for the most part complete and utter garbage and never worth casting beyond the star chart and even hardly there.

An ability that might do slightly better than wasted energy is not a good ability. Especially not considering the investment required to unlock it.

75% of an enemies' health is worthless if it has to go through armor and then you still have to go around and shoot/swing at each enemy because casting it a second time does 75% of the remaining health, so the enemies are still not dead.

AoE damage abilities that don't kill enemies without providing potent debuffs or other benefits are fundamentally worthless in this game.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, NineteenLettersLong said:

Using it will now leave all enemies within range and line of sight with 25% health, in which case with the specific case of ash you'll have to use Marked for Death, Fatal Teleport, and the Finisher Animation again, or Equinox Sleep, Marked for Death, Finisher animation. or just individually kill the lower health enemies.

Either way this takes twice as much time or more, making it a lackluster option compared to damage dealers like Larval Protea, Larval Rubble Heap Atlas, Roar DPS Volt, Warcry Baruuk, ect, ect, ect.

Marked For Death was already pretty slow for damage, it was just safer because of Trickster invisibility and added utility and fun to otherwise janky lower viability frames like Ash.

It is now, however . Just hot garbage.

Correction:

It will leave all enemies of the same type at 25%. Any enemies with lower health than the enemy you hit, however? They're going to be left with much less. And likewise for enemies with more. For example - if you smack a Butcher with this, then you're going to be dealing comparatively little because Butchers have comparatively little health. Beat up a Bombard, however, and you'll do a great deal of damage and likely kill surrounding enemies as well, because they have a lot of health.

Whilst the ability has been greatly reduced in power, the biggest contributor - the double-dipping on mods and free functional invincibility - were undoubtedly bugs to begin with, and imagining them to not get addressed is frankly wishful thinking.

[Doraz_]

imma just say it ...

Mar. 4 Deth was always a bad ability.

 

- promoted repetitive gameplay

- made the entire arsenal worthless

- made no sense in the universe of Warframe

 

Imma also just say this ...

DE nerfing this is a missed opportunity and indeed a sad thing to see as a recurring habit.

 

new marked for death proposal

honor the "meme" that M.4 death was for a few weeks by turning into the signature Helminth ability.

Marked for death now works like this.

1) mark an enemy. enemy is stunned and opened to finisher.

- if enemy is killed by a finisher : "x" enemies are chosen around the player. Infested cannon balls from the helminth are dropped and explode in a radious ( similar to ember ). Solve the "nerf" by giving it AOE potential and status application ( toxin/viral ) for Con.Over. builds

- if enemy is killed normally : a parassite sent by the helminth enters the enemy body and makes it explode.  a big cloud lingers for "x" seconds providing healing in a fairly big radius.

 

In a sense we can bring our hungry boi "out for dinner" 0_0  for that fine grineer  ". . ."

Make the helminth say something funny as well.

 

( My original desire was to make it deifferent for primaries and secondaries and melee but it gets to messy ... 2 abilities , 1 offensive and 1 defensive is good enough)

 

Edit: actually, maybe it's too meme, but the potency of the buff/damage can be dictated by helminth hunger level xD

 

as in the average x/100 percent of all categories is multiplied with the standard value? ... it would bee to meme tho

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 7 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Correction:

It will leave all enemies of the same type at 25%. Any enemies with lower health than the enemy you hit, however? They're going to be left with much less. And likewise for enemies with more. For example - if you smack a Butcher with this, then you're going to be dealing comparatively little because Butchers have comparatively little health. Beat up a Bombard, however, and you'll do a great deal of damage and likely kill surrounding enemies as well, because they have a lot of health.

Whilst the ability has been greatly reduced in power, the biggest contributor - the double-dipping on mods and free functional invincibility - were undoubtedly bugs to begin with, and imagining them to not get addressed is frankly wishful thinking.

For the 3rd or 4th time this thread, the double mod application and Arcane trickery interaction we're obviously bugs. This is not where the majority of its power came from and wouldn't matter after fix.

 

The issue is being capped at current enemy health. Killing a bombard will still not even kill surrounding enemies, and relying purely on heavy gunners to spawn is really inconsistent and niche for how restrictive the ability already is. The ability is just Garbage now. If overdamage counted the ability would be perfectly fine and usable.

[-FrutyX-]

But that's pretty normal.

Everytime something new came and it was viable and possibly overpowered,it was nerfed to dust,to be completely useless,it was like that,it is like that.

[Rosaria]

16 minutes ago, -FrutyX- said:

But that's pretty normal.

Everytime something new came and it was viable and possibly overpowered,it was nerfed to dust,to be completely useless,it was like that,it is like that.

Maybe if the majority of the balancing devs actually playtested any change and didn't just throw random numbers because "yuh, sounds good" this wouldn't be an issue 🤔

It's a pit they're digging themselves deeper and deeper into, and it's also actively promoting only using certain frames / builds instead of mixing it up in any way, shape or form. Besides, what's the real use of balancing a niche skill when many other /map/-wide kill frames and builds exist. Especially in a PvE game..

Maybe that's best kept for another thread, but I feel like this nerf only brings it to light even more.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Meh, if it means I don’t have to hear Revenant mains crying “But Marie’s for death” at me everytime I call him trash I’m perfectly fine with this.

[Loza03]

42 minutes ago, NineteenLettersLong said:

The issue is being capped at current enemy health. Killing a bombard will still not even kill surrounding enemies, and relying purely on heavy gunners to spawn is really inconsistent and niche for how restrictive the ability already is. The ability is just Garbage now. If overdamage counted the ability would be perfectly fine and usable.

In that case, maybe you should start looking at root causes here. Things like the constant multipliers the game uses as 'difficulty', the energy and ammo 'economy' that's so lax that an ability's cost to use is never considered in the balancing process, and the total death of utility as a potential path for abilities.

Marked For Death is the latest in line, to be sure, but a lot of weapons, powers and entire frames have fallen to core design issues. Demand systemic change - accept the necessity for big nerfs now to re-establish a proper foundation for balance in the future in order to break the cycle and give abilities room to exist without being total garbage or the obvious best.

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 12 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

In that case, maybe you should start looking at root causes here. Things like the constant multipliers the game uses as 'difficulty', the energy and ammo 'economy' that's so lax that an ability's cost to use is never considered in the balancing process, and the total death of utility as a potential path for abilities.

Marked For Death is the latest in line, to be sure, but a lot of weapons, powers and entire frames have fallen to core design issues. Demand systemic change - accept the necessity for big nerfs now to re-establish a proper foundation for balance in the future in order to break the cycle and give abilities room to exist without being total garbage or the obvious best.

Marked for Death was clearly not an obvious best. It was niche to begin with. You have no idea what you're even talking about now and just rambling about root issues lol. Bro just chill this nerf was ridiculous and bad.

[Loza03]

Just now, NineteenLettersLong said:

Marked for Death was clearly not an obvious best. It was niche to begin with. You have no idea what you're even talking about now and just rambling about root issues lol. Bro just chill this nerf was ridiculous and bad.

Yes.

And root changes are needed if we want fewer ridiculous and bad changes in the future.

[zakaryx]

It really is.

 

[Rosaria]

1 minute ago, NineteenLettersLong said:

Marked for Death was clearly not an obvious best. It was niche to begin with. You have no idea what you're even talking about now and just rambling about root issues lol. Bro just chill this nerf was ridiculous and bad.

To be fair, he's not wrong. There are far too many root issues to really quantify or explain. But it's also very true that this was an extremely stupid change with little to no grounding in actual balance. So DE needs to get their head out of their bum and either start extensively testing stuff, in non-controlled environments, and without console commands or godmode. Like all the players do.

Also we're not getting a systematic fix to the root issues of this game. I can almost guarantee that. At least not for several years, at the VERY least. I'd be genuinely surprised if we do. But either way, this nonsense in particular needs to be fixed. But it won't. Because DE loves crushing things into the ground for 'balance' without actually knowing how balance works, while things like khora and saryn exist.

[NineteenLettersLong]

il y a 6 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Yes.

And root changes are needed if we want fewer ridiculous and bad changes in the future.

Not what the thread is about in the slightest. Saying "hey this ability sucks, let overdamage count" is a lot more realistic than "hey then entire concept of difficulty is flawed can you guys rebalance the game and make this ability more useful as a result?"

[CopperBezel]

Helminth abilities in general are weird. Other than Infested Mobility and Energy Munitions, which are respectively not a damage ability and somewhat niche, but do a very good job at what they do, they're all very weak, and I feel like they're all token offerings that give players something to mess with in the process of collecting the subsumed abilities that are the real focus of the system. 

M4D has moved from being a niche nuke to being a weaker version of those awful old syndicate mods that deal out enemy max health on death as AoE damage (in equally blissful ignorance of the fact that armor makes this number irrelevant.) That does about put it in line with Expedite Suffering, which allows you to speed up one guy's death when you don't feel like hitting him again with the same weapon you just used to inflict the status in the first place. And that leaves both slightly less useful than Perspicacity and Rebuild Shields, which respectively solve the practical problems of "I can't hack and I'm in a sortie" and "I don't want to farm another Hildryn so this is good enough". It's baffling to me that M4D, like those weapon augments it's now inferior to, doesn't even get a visual representation of the AoE, it just happens. X /

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, NineteenLettersLong said:

Not what the thread is about in the slightest. Saying "hey this ability sucks, let overdamage count" is a lot more realistic than "hey then entire concept of difficulty is flawed can you guys rebalance the game and make this ability more useful as a result?"

Yes, this is true.

What I'm saying is that this is not an isolated incident. After the fifth, sixth... tenth time something like this happens, maybe it's not an individual-case problem.

[Burq]

After testing and messing with this ability after the hotfix... yeah, it was a tad overnerfed.

That it does 75% of current HP that is not finisher damage makes it so, if the enemies around have armor or shields, the ability is barely gonna tickle them, even with viral procs on them, EVEN LESS on Steel Path, making armor removal even more necessary to make the ability do anything of use and by that point using a melee weapon with good range or other abilities just a better, much more fun option (M4D still requires a long, energy expensive combo to make it useful now made even longer: spread viral procs, remove armor from as many enemies around as possible, then optionally open the enemy to finisher if not using Fatal Teleport, THEN activate Marked for Death on the correct Heavy Unit, then use the finisher) for Steel Path.

I am miffed cause MfD had opened some fun but niche options for other frames, specifically for me, Killer Queen Nyx, since it requires a different build than usual for Nyx (requiring power strength to use Psychic Bolts for armor removal and forgoing Absorb) and was fun to pretend to have a walking bomb on demand following you around that could clear a mob of enemies. Now it's much less effective and very much not worth it doing the long combo to make the bomb useful.

 

 

 

 

[DrivaMain]

How to fix MfD without making it return to it’s former self. 
 

Change it to true damage. Nuff said. 

[CopperBezel]

Well, at the very least, they're talking on stream now about how this is an iterative rework and they're intending to buff it back up a bit but still within the scope of their intended role for it, so they seem to be thinking in the same line as you.

[0asu]

28 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, at the very least, they're talking on stream now about how this is an iterative rework and they're intending to buff it back up a bit but still within the scope of their intended role for it, so they seem to be thinking in the same line as you.

 

Don't get your hopes up

The bandaid has already been ripped off and they aren't going to reapply it to be ripped off again at a later point